User avatar
lindy field
Posts: 2939
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2001 1:52 pm

San Diego-Honolulu Flights

Wed Mar 28, 2001 1:28 pm

I read that Hawaiian is planning to start daily flights from Honolulu to San Diego this summer. Will this route be a success for Hawaiian?

There's a history of other airlines flying this route. United used DC-10s for a while in the early '80s, later using a 747 in '84 and '84. This flight may have made a stop at LAX. At some point in the 1980s, United's service ceased. Western also flew the route, using DC-10s. The routing may have been SLC-SAN-HNL. After Western was bought out by Delta, Delta flew the route for a few years using the ex-Western DC-10s in Delta colors, eventually replacing them with L1011s. That service ended a few years ago, maybe in 1995 or 1996. Does anyone have any more info, or for that matter, photos of these aircraft at SAN?

What's up with this Transpacific Airlines non-starter, which planned to use DC-10s from PDX, LAS, and SAN to Hawaii?

Since I'm at it, does anyone have any idea if/when National will start their SAN-LAS service which is included as a "planned destination" on their route map?

Thanks!
 
Trvlr
Posts: 4251
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2000 9:58 am

RE: San Diego-Honolulu Flights

Wed Mar 28, 2001 2:25 pm

I am hoping that this route will be a success for Hawaiian. Many businesses in the San Diego and Hawaii regions were complaining about the lack of flights between the two cities, and travelers here often bitch about having to go LAX or SFO to catch a flight to HNL, OGG, or KOA.

I remember seeing the Delta L1011 fly over my house on its way to the airport from HNL a few years back...sad to see that they stopped it. Of course that's what happens when everyone retreats to their fortress hubs...the non-hub cities get the chop. I would love to see UA or DL reopen SAN-HNL...I am sure Delta could do it easily as an extension of one of the many ATL flights they have each day.

Since National is having financial difficulties (are they still?), the starting date for flights to SAN has probably been pushed back a bit within the company. Also, since SAN is a very crowded airport during peak times, National may be having trouble getting slots and gates to park their planes!!! Some of the forum members here who work for jetBlue have mentioned that this may be a reason why JB hasn't started service here yet; apparently they really want to though.

Here's a pic of the DL L1011 that has been floating around the internet...notice that also in the picture is an airline that doesnt fly to San Diego anymore...MarkAir.


Regards,
Aaron G.

 
Guest

RE: San Diego-Honolulu Flights

Wed Mar 28, 2001 5:26 pm

LOL, SAN-HNL service will be a joke. It won't last.
 
ont 737
Posts: 606
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2001 10:19 am

RE: San Diego-Honolulu Flights

Wed Mar 28, 2001 5:33 pm

This would not be the first So Cal destination to fail for Hawaiian. I remember that they used to serve Ontario, Ca with L1011s. However I think that SAN has a better shot at being a success.
 
User avatar
lindy field
Posts: 2939
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2001 1:52 pm

RE: San Diego-Honolulu Flights

Thu Mar 29, 2001 1:34 am

I'd have a better feeling about the chances for Hawaiian's flight if they were getting feeder traffic from somewhere else.
We'll see...

Trvlr, have you heard any other interesting rumors about new services to SAN?
 
aa777flyer
Posts: 1017
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2001 8:45 am

RE: San Diego-Honolulu Flights

Thu Mar 29, 2001 2:12 am

Ye never know the flight may be a sucess. Although I think a 763 or 757 would be a better airplane for that kind of route. Since HA does not have that...the 10 would have to do.
The real joke is Aloha flying 737's SNAHNL.......I thnk that due to SNA's short runway and noise problems there that flight will have such a weight restriction every day there is way it could make money...
The TSA was created to make the post office look efficient!
 
Trvlr
Posts: 4251
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2000 9:58 am

RE: San Diego-Honolulu Flights

Thu Mar 29, 2001 4:03 am

San Diego is a very large O&D market in itself (affluent and almost 3 million people), and Hawaii is a popular destination for travelers, maybe even from Mexico. San Diego is a whole lot larger than Ontario; there really isnt much of a comparison between the two cities.

I think Aloha going to SNA with 737s is a great idea. Orange County is an incredibly rich area, and I think people would definitely take the chance to fly from SNA rather than LAX.

Lindy Field: Aside from National Airline's planned service to SAN from LAS, the only other rumor I have heard of is jetBlue coming here. Of course, I think in the coming year we should (finally) hear some noise from American Airlines about opening up a route to Miami from SAN. Also, perhaps in the next few years when the Japanese economy hopefully gets back on track, JAL or ANA might consider using a 777 to fly to NRT from SAN, pending availability of slots etc. Also, when Air Canada recovers from their financial difficulties, they could consider reopening Canadian's old route from Vancouver to San Diego.

Aaron G.
 
azjubilee
Posts: 3381
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2000 5:26 am

RE: San Diego-Honolulu Flights

Thu Mar 29, 2001 5:36 am

Why are people already calling this a failure? Who would have thought PDX could get daily service, but HA is making it work! HA will surprise us all. As for the comment by Lindy Field... HA has 2 daily SFO, 3 daily LAX, 2 daily SEA (sometimes 3) and 1 daily PDX, all to HNL, not to mention the OGG and KOA service from SEA and LAX. They're supporting all this with O&D traffic. They do codeshare with American Eagle in LAX but that's it.


AZJ
 
User avatar
Scooter
Posts: 837
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 1999 12:18 pm

RE: San Diego-Honolulu Flights

Thu Mar 29, 2001 5:46 am

Lindy:

You might have already seen these, but I thought I'd point out the database images of DL L-10s in SAN:


Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Scott Leazenby



Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Scott Leazenby



Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Alastair T. Gardiner



The two shots of mine (sorry for the sh*tty quality - crappy camera) was a flight last year to ATL that lasted a month. Wierd...anyway, I got to fly that route a couple days after those photos were taken, and it sure was fun flying an L-10 out of SAN.

RE: HA @ SAN

They'll do just fine. Hawaii is a VERY popular destination for San Diegans, and it is something that people have been asking for for years. They'll fill those planes...guranteed.
My name is Scott, and I am addicted to writing trip reports.
 
ScottB
Posts: 5447
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

RE: San Diego-Honolulu Flights

Thu Mar 29, 2001 6:10 am

The big question isn't whether Hawaiian can fill the planes from SAN to HNL - it's whether they'll make more money doing that or using the aircraft for something else. That's pretty much why you've seen a lot of the majors retreat from routes from the US to Hawaii - they could use the resources more profitably on other routes. I think Hawaii's problems in drawing tourists have also had an effect - the growth of travel to the Caribbean and Mexico has undoubtedly brought significant competition, especially for anyone east of the Mississippi. Moreover, before the bubble burst in Japan, the boom in Japanese visitors to Hawaii (most with substatial financial resources by U.S. standards) made Hawaii a rather expensive place for most Americans to visit.

Aloha is flying 737's to SNA because all they fly is 737's. Someone else would have to comment on possible limitations due to performance and runway length at John Wayne Airport tho. I don't doubt it will make money, though, as a convenient alternative to LAX for the wealthy folks in Orange county.

And National Airlines is in Chapter 11 bankruptcy, and as such is limited in its expansion potential until it manages to emerge from the protection of the bankruptcy courts. I'd argue that perhaps LAS-SAN might not be the best allocation of resources for them, though, since both WN and HP already compete aggressively on that route.
 
User avatar
ATA L1011
Posts: 1275
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2001 6:47 am

RE: San Diego-Honolulu Flights

Thu Mar 29, 2001 6:22 am

When the Tristars/DC-10's/ 747's were doing this rte they were severely penalized also. They were going out of SD with just enough fuel/lighter freight payloads also to Make Honolulu with nothing to spare because of the short runway. I know we have had several charters from SD, but insisted on busing the people to LA and going from their. SD's runway is quite a strain on our fully Loaded 362 seat Tristar 1/100's and our pilots donot like to fly our Tristars out of there for that reason. I also think that SD close proximity to LA has something to do with it also.
Treat others as you expect to be treated!
 
User avatar
lindy field
Posts: 2939
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2001 1:52 pm

RE: San Diego-Honolulu Flights

Thu Mar 29, 2001 7:22 am

Thanks, everyone, for the insight. I hope that Hawaiian's service will last. Over the years, San Diego's service by wide-bodied aircraft has fluctuated considerably. Nowadays, only Delta has multiple daily flights on 767s. AA's use of 767s in San Diego has dropped off almost completely now, and it's been years since UAL had any scheduled wide-bodied service.(Continental briefly flew A300s to IAH, TWA flew L1011s and 767s to JFK and LAX, and Northwest Orient introduced SAN service to LAX with DC-10s) Is this a matter of economic efficiency or is it the curse of the short runway? Or both? On the other hand, FedEx, ABX, and Emery have all started using larger aircraft...

I've wondered in the past if SAN would ever serve as a viable market for Asian nonstops. In 1995-96, Delta considered extending their now discontinued SAN-HNL
L-1011 flight to Tokyo, but decided against it, probably because of the weakness in the Japanese economy. I doubt there will be any change in the next few years, but maybe someday...

Lindy

PS--Scooter, thanks for sharing the photos. I've seen them a number of times!
I flew a Delta L1011 from SLC to SAN in 1996.

Aaron--Do you know anything about Alaska's and Canadian's previous attempts at Vancouver service? Why they were discontinued? Oh, and I'd love for JetBlue to fly to SAN. I fly with them regularly on trips to and from the Bay Area.
 
codc10
Posts: 1760
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

RE: San Diego-Honolulu Flights

Thu Mar 29, 2001 9:08 am

Booyala, you, DrukAir_BAe146, and Wishihadalife can get out of this forum. I am almost 100% sure you are all the same person, posting the same bullshit/ridiculous (make your pick) information time and again.

If anyone doesn't believe me, just look at their profiles and their posts. They all share the same childish display of intentional stupidity to get a laugh. It's fine once, but more of the same takes your respect and credibility right to the dogs. Enough already, you and all your alter egos.
 
ont 737
Posts: 606
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2001 10:19 am

RE: Aloha's SNA Service

Thu Mar 29, 2001 9:52 am

The runway at SNA is currently 5700'. The largest plane that you will see there is a 757. I believe that they are going to legnthen the runway about another 1250'. However the 757 will probably be the largest a/c ever to serve SNA because of all the rich people in Newport Beach that complain about aircaft noise all day. They are the reason that planes taking off have to climb like they are a space shuttle. The airport was there long before they were. I believe that Aloha's SNA service will be a huge success. I live in So Cal and I aviod LAX like the plague whenever I can along with everyone else. Aloha wil have no problem filling up those little 737-700s. They sould have bought 800s or 900s.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
User avatar
ATA L1011
Posts: 1275
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2001 6:47 am

RE: Aloha's SNA Service

Thu Mar 29, 2001 10:15 am

Actually ONT Fedex operates an A-310 there so it is the largest and heaviest there by far. Although it never goes out of there nearly fully loaded. Lindy you can operate the big guys out of there but you are severely restricted like we are with the Tristar on longer rtes from SD. The 767-200/300 is a good choice because they have much better field performance eevn heavily loaded than the rest of the big guys.
Treat others as you expect to be treated!
 
Trvlr
Posts: 4251
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2000 9:58 am

RE: San Diego-Honolulu Flights

Thu Mar 29, 2001 10:32 am

I have little doubt that this flight will work. Not only will it be the only flight for passengers between San Diego and Hawaii, but also the only cargo flight. That will be very lucrative for Hawaiian Airlines; one reason for this is Hawaii's huge dependence on air/sea transport due to the obvious lack of highways to the region lol. In regards to weight restrictions for the DC-10, I think I have a website bookmarked that has the exact weight requirements for DC10 ops in San Diego...I'll see if I can find it.

Lindy: I remember that Canadian had one or two flights a day to Vancouver a few years back, using 737-200s. I don't ever remember Alaska having a nonstop flight to YVR, do you? I am confident that if Air Canada or maybe even Alaska restart the route then it would be a success...currently Alaska has 7 daily flights to Seattle, which increases to 9 this summer. Some of those passengers have to be going to Vancouver.

I agree with you about the gradual decline of widebodies at SAN in the previous decade. When I was very little, I remember seeing tons of AA DC-10s and 767s here, and flew several to Chicago. Sadly this ended, but maybe it was in lieu of more nonstop flights on smaller aircraft, which can be either a good or a bad thing. However, I think that in the future we will see more widebody traffic at SAN as the constraints of the airport become fully realized. Delta, even though they have replaced their JFK 767 flight with a narrowbody, will have 3 767s flying into San Diego at the start of the summer schedule. American may also have to put a few widebodies on some ORD or DFW routes if they keep expanding here and their TWA acquisition causes terminal congestion. Plus there is the existing daily BA 777 and soon the HA DC-10. I have little doubt that United or Continental could profitably put some widebodies on the IAH and DEN routes, as often the first class sections on these routes are sold out and some more premium seats would be useful. However I think constraints having to do with how well 767s or 777s could fit at Terminal 1 or CO's part of Terminal 2 come into play.

It looks like ABX has permanently replaced their DC8 with a 762F, and although I am not sure, UPS I think is still using a 763F in addition to a 757 on routes to Ontario and Louisville. With the addition of the new China routes from Ontario, we may see more UPS flights there. Emery, although they have not fully replaced their DC-8 with it yet, has made the DC-10 a regular visitor to SAN. I wouldn't be surprised in a few months if we also see FedEx putting an A300 or a DC10 on one of their Oakland flights.

Regards,
Aaron G.

 
EIPremier
Posts: 1462
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2000 8:17 am

RE: Trvlr

Thu Mar 29, 2001 10:56 am

Actually, the first route Canadian route Alaska got authority to serve was SAN-YVR. I think they were looking for a backdoor entrance into the YVR market. They had two daily non-stops back in early/mid 1996. However, the flights weren't too successful and they abruptly discontinued non-stop service in November of that year. For a while they flew two daily SAN-LAX-YVR flights. In 1997, they dropped the LAX-SAN segments and increased their service from LAX, and they've started service to YVR from SFO, PSP, LAS and PHX.

I think SAN-YVR is still a market with untapped potential.
 
alexinwa
Posts: 867
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2000 2:08 pm

RE: San Diego-Honolulu Flights

Thu Mar 29, 2001 11:04 am

I think I saw this in the Hawaiian web-site a while back. The comment was that San Deigo service has been on the planning sheet for over two years. It was stated that they didnt start it earlier because of lack of aircraft. I think they stopped 1 daily non-stop to SFO to start the new SAN service. If not where did they get the extra A/C?? Also, the Hawaiian leg to LAS from LAX is very full. LAS is the biggest mainland attraction for Haiwaii residents. Good job Alhoa for doing what Hawaiian cant do right now. Another thing, Hawaii itself (convention and tourism bureau) have been screaming for more service to and from the mainland for years. Travel Weekly said that rumors have been floating around of some Hawaiian investors starting another airline based in Hawaii just for the reason that current airlines arent giving the number of flights and seats that the state thinks it needs and wants. SEA-HNL has 2 daily non-stops on NW and 1 daily with Hawaiian and another Hawaiian that runs 4 days a week. All of them PACKED. Northwest city manager said that they could run double daily 747's full out of Seattle if they had them to spare. San Deigo in my mind will succeed just as will all of the new Aloha Airlines mainland flights. I just wish Aloha would of used a 752 or 753 for the flights.
You mad Bro???
 
Trvlr
Posts: 4251
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2000 9:58 am

RE: San Diego-Honolulu Flights

Thu Mar 29, 2001 2:38 pm

Here are some pictures I found of planes that dont visit SAN anymore:







I hope Continental brings the 757 back soon...they could use it on their IAH flights.




Aaron G.
 
User avatar
lindy field
Posts: 2939
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2001 1:52 pm

RE: San Diego-Honolulu Flights

Fri Mar 30, 2001 5:32 am

Those photos make me nostalgic... I think I started watching the planes at SAN in 1978, when I was five years old. Sorry, I was not a photographer. This is why I keep trying to encourage the experienced photographers to dig up SAN photos from their collections. I know all the shots from airliners, having downloaded them. There are also a couple of other websites with some pictures...

Interesting that UPS has started using a 763 from San Diego. Is that daily or occasionally? I had figured they might bring in one of their A300s. And what about the express.net aircraft I saw last time I was in SD, at Xmas time? Are they flying on behalf of Emery or on their own?

About the Hawaiian flights--If the planes are full, why can't they afford to buy a few more?
 
Trvlr
Posts: 4251
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2000 9:58 am

RE: San Diego-Honolulu Flights

Fri Mar 30, 2001 8:16 am

Yeah I remember I have some (actually pretty good) photos of the UA 777-200 that visited SAN when United took it on a tour of the country when they first got the plane. I'll see if I can find them.

The UPS plane comes usually 4-5x a week I think, from Ontario.

If you examine that pic of the Canadian Airlines 737-200 that I posted, you can see that it is departing in the afternoon, because the sun is shining from the west. That means that Canadian had at least 2 flights a day from Vancouver to SAN, as I distinctly remember once seeing a Canadian Airlines 737-200 depart SAN in the morning.

Air Canada could probably give Alaska a real run for its money by implementing a SAN-YVR flight.

Aaron G.
 
alexinwa
Posts: 867
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2000 2:08 pm

RE: San Diego-Honolulu Flights

Fri Mar 30, 2001 8:29 am

I wonder if that TWA L1011 is pop cans yet!??? Can anyone tell me??
You mad Bro???
 
timbabwe
Posts: 29
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2000 9:38 am

RE: San Diego-Honolulu Flights

Fri Mar 30, 2001 8:36 am

Trvlr..

Please post or email those photos of the UA 777....I would love to see them. When did this plane make a stop in SAN?? Also...did you get any good pics of the BA 777 that arrived last weekend?

Thanks in advance...

Timbabwe
 
Trvlr
Posts: 4251
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2000 9:58 am

RE: San Diego-Honolulu Flights

Fri Mar 30, 2001 11:44 am

Timbabwe: I'll try and find those pics soon. I did get some pics last weekend of the BA777, and I will try and get those developed soon.
----
In regards to runway limitations, can anyone decipher this information that I got from http://www.airnav.com/airport/san??

Runway 9/27
Dimensions: 9400 x 200 ft. / 2865 x 61 m
Surface: concrete/asphalt/grooved, in good condition
LAST 1000 FT EAST END OF RY NOT GROOVED.
Weight limitations: Single wheel: 100000 lbs
Double wheel: 150000 lbs
Double tandem: 250000 lbs
Dual double tandem: 720000 lbs, FAA GROSS
WT STRENGTH DC10-10 = 410; DC10-30 = 530; L-1011 = 430; B-747 = 720.
Runway edge lights: high intensity
Operational restrictions: 270 X 20 FT STOPWAY EAST EOR.

Aaron G.
 
777gk
Posts: 1488
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2000 3:04 am

RE: San Diego-Honolulu Flights

Fri Mar 30, 2001 11:51 am

I actually flew the 757 EWR-SAN back in 1997-98 for a little while. It was a nice flight, I like the San Diego approach on a clear day. As soon as those damn 737NG's came in, the 757 went right off the transcontinental routes and started going to FLL, PBI, and MCO all year long. Our 737s should be going down to FL instead of those great 757s. It really is a waste of talent, but the guys down at dispatching are doing something right if we are the only full service major making money during our little recession.
 
User avatar
lindy field
Posts: 2939
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2001 1:52 pm

RE: San Diego-Honolulu Flights

Sat Mar 31, 2001 12:04 am

Canadian definitely had flights twice daily. I never saw it because I was living in Europe at that time. It does surprise me a little that Air Canada hasn't started service with an A319. They could probably find passengers for a once a day service. As for the photos, Aaron, I can only encourage you to upload them.

Yet another new question about SAN: Since Southwest is pulling out of SFO, will any other airlines introduce SAN-SFO service to compete with United? That route SHOULD NOT be a monopoly. Or, wait, does Alaska fly that route? I'm getting old...
 
Trvlr
Posts: 4251
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2000 9:58 am

RE: San Diego-Honolulu Flights

Sat Mar 31, 2001 12:56 am

Unfortunately, only United flies the SAN-SFO route now. That relly sucks for me because I was one of the few people that would just fly WN up to SFO for a day and spot at the new terminal etc. Fares are bound to be higher now that UA owns the route. I don't think anyone besides UA is going to be operating the SFO route in the future though...perhaps Alaska but I don't think that is likely.

Aaron G.
 
User avatar
lindy field
Posts: 2939
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2001 1:52 pm

RE: San Diego-Honolulu Flights

Sat Mar 31, 2001 3:12 am

I think the United monopoly on that route is VERY bad news. I much prefer SFO to Oakland, probably just because of the planespotting... but I also prefer the facilities. The new international terminal and concrete spaghetti out front is rather impressive, now that it's done.

What's everyone's take on SAN expansion/masterplan/replacement? Should we start a new thread?
 
Trvlr
Posts: 4251
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2000 9:58 am

RE: San Diego-Honolulu Flights

Sat Mar 31, 2001 4:06 am

There have been several threads about San Diego's airport problems....the most recent one where I present my viewpoint is entitled "SAN Airport Issues" I think or something like that. Feel free to respond to it or creat a new thread of your own...

I think that the UA monopoly to SFO is bad also because it allows UA to jack up the fares it charges for passengers who want to connect on an airline besides UA. I think that soon we will see fares rise at least 50-75% to SFO.

Aaron G.
 
User avatar
lindy field
Posts: 2939
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2001 1:52 pm

RE: San Diego-Honolulu Flights

Sat Mar 31, 2001 7:18 am

Well, I'll probably be flying out of Oakland on trips to San Francisco...

Aaron, I took your suggestion and looked at some of the older threads about San Diego. I suppose it is a tired topic and I won't try to start a new thread. I'll just throw in my two cents here. Generally, I agree with you that Miramar would have been the best option. As for the TJ idea, I don't see the political will in conservative San Diego to build a binational airport, even though it's not a bad idea. As for Pendleton, if, as you suggest, the topography is ill-suited for an airport, there's no point, is there? I'm not going to recommend that anyone blast away the hills there to build an airport... Neither do I see much point in spending lots of taxpayer money on improvements to Lindbergh Field that ignore the fact that the city has outgrown the facility and needs a new airport. I am not particularly optimistic that the city will get its act together...

By the way, I never thanked you for throwing up the Delta/Markair photo with which I am familiar. The thought is appreciated. And I am impressed by your knowledge of San Diego's aviation scene.


 
User avatar
lindy field
Posts: 2939
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2001 1:52 pm

RE: San Diego-Honolulu Flights

Sat Mar 31, 2001 8:05 am

Don't know if you've seen the SAN photos from the following site. Many are of poor quality but are historically interesting.

http://www.photovault.com/Link/Technology/Aviation_Airports/Airports/SanDiego.html
 
hawaiian717
Posts: 3139
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:46 am

RE: San Diego-Honolulu Flights

Sun Apr 01, 2001 7:40 am

I doubt United will be able to raise fares on the SAN-SFO route too much. For O&D traffic, United has to contend with Southwest to OAK, which is preferred by many over SFO due to a lack of weather-related delays as well as ease of access. And if connecting passengers find the SAN-SFO airfares too high, they will simply explore alternatives, such as flying UA Express or AA Eagle to LAX and connecting there.

Going back to the original topic for a moment (I have been out of town, see post in the Trip Reports forum), I too hope HA's SAN-HNL service will be successful. I have tickets to fly this route this summer.

David

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: AirportRival, AVLAirlineFreq, Bing [Bot], Bluebird191, BlueF9A320, CANPILOT, hoons90, JBirdAV8r, johnberg, maxbaby01, MKENut, mwh787, mxguy, powercube, spacecadet, Viscount724, Yahoo [Bot] and 336 guests