JAT
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JAT May Get A Boeing 767, Other News!

Fri May 11, 2001 9:46 am

Newspaper "Politika", May 11th 2001

(original)


JAT SPREMAN ZA LETOVE DO SEVERNE AMERIKE



U Njujorku, Čikagu i Torontu krajem juna
Čekaju se dozvole američkih vazduhoplovnih vlasti. - Umesto JAT-ove "desetke" možda će leteti neki moderniji i rentabilniji, iznajmljeni avion. - Predlozi da se i u početku leti samo za Njujork, dok bi u Čikagu i Torontu radila "of-lajn" predstavništva



Jugoslovenski aerotransport put severnoameričkog kontinenta mogao bi da poleti najranije u drugoj polovini juna. Kada će tačno krenuti avioni za Njujork, Čikago i Toronto, koji su uvršteni u ovogodišnji red letenja, još nije poznato, jer američke civilne vazduhoplovne vlasti JAT-u još nisu dale sve potrebne dozvole. U pitanju je dodela termina za letenje preko Atlantika i američkog neba u kome je prekomerna avio-gužva.

U JAT-u ističu da je sve spremno za letove ka gradovima u kojima živi naša brojna dijaspora, koja je veoma zainteresovana za direktnu vezu sa domovinom. Do pomenutih gradova trebalo bi da leti širokotrupna "desetka" koja je nedavno generalno remontovana, čime joj je upotrebni vek produžen za još pet godina. Međutim, postoje predlozi da se ovaj avion da u zakup i od tog novca iznajmi modernija letelica, najverovatnije tipa "boing 767", koja je rentabilnija od "desetke".

Budući da će Severnu Ameriku "pokrivati" samo jedna letelica, postoje i predlozi da avion u početku leti samo do Njujorka i to ponedeljkom, sredom i petkom. U Čikagu i Torontu radila bi takozvana "of-lajn" predstavništva koja bi putnike do Njujorka slala u saradnji sa nekom od aviokompanija sa kojom bi JAT potpisao ugovor o zajedničkom prevozu putnika. Sa aerodroma "Kenedi" u Njujorku do Beograda bi se nastavljalo JAT-om.

-------------------------------------------------

(my translation)

JAT is ready for flights to North America

To New York, Chicago and Toronto by the end of June.

Yugoslav Airlines could be flying to North America by the second half of June at the earliest. It is not known when exactly the flights to New York, Chicago and Toronto, which are included in this year's time table, because American civil air traffic authorities have not granted JAT all the necessary licences yet. They are waiting to be given the slots to fly over the crowded0 Atlantic and American skies.

JAT stresses that everything is ready for flights to cities in which a large diaspora lives, who are very interested in a direct air link with their homeland. The wideobdy "ten" which was receantly refurbished and as aresult had it's life span extended by another five years, was supposed to fly to these cities. But, there are suggestions to lease this aircraft (to another carrier) and for JAT to use the money made off this lease (for them selves) a more modern aircraft, most likely a Boeing 767, which is more profitable than the "ten".

Seeing as North America is to be "covered" by only one aircraft, there are suggestions that in the beggining the plane should only fly to New York, three times weekly, on Monday, Wednesday and Friday. In Toronto and Chicago so called "off line" offices would exist which would send passengers to New York in co-operation with another airline. From "Kennedy" airport in New York passengers would continue on to Belgrade via JAT.

--------------------------------------------
(my comment)

FINALLY! Something sensible coming out of JAT. They can't fly to three cities with one plane. Also, the 767 would be more efficent and probably smaller. We'll see...

What do you think?



 
Bove
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RE: JAT May Get A Boeing 767, Other News!

Fri May 11, 2001 10:05 am

The 763 would be a good choice for JAT at the present moment...there will be a lot of low-cycled aircraft available for lease in the coming year and JAT can surely get a good deal.
 
White Eagle
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RE: JAT May Get A Boeing 767, Other News!

Fri May 11, 2001 10:18 am

According to the article, JAT will trade in YU-AMB for a Boeing 767. The 767 is still only a second-gen widebody which does not share any significant commonality with any other type they have operated or intend to operate.

If your already going to introduce a new type, why not lease 2 or 3 A330-200s which would share significant commonality with their intended A319s.

The 332s could also carry a lot more cargo compared to a 767-300ER.

That way they could restart operations to JFK, Chicago and Toronto. Having passengers fly to JFK and then changeover does not make sense because JFK does not have as many connections as Chicago and does not have good connections with Canada. I think AC flies to La Guardia and not JFK.

They should also consider flying to Newark and interline with CO. Most of JAT's customer base would live closer to this airport.

I don't think that they should start transatlantic operations with only one aircraft. There is too much risk from having it go offline for maintenance etc.
 
JAT
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RE: JAT May Get A Boeing 767, Other News!

Fri May 11, 2001 10:47 am

I think the main factor is price. Surely it is cheapter to lease a 767 than a 330, that's just my guess though. What you say about JFK and Newark is interesting, maybe they should look into that....
 
chepos
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RE: JAT May Get A Boeing 767, Other News!

Fri May 11, 2001 10:58 am

Finally JAT is returning to NA.
Chepos
Puerto Rico
Fly the Flag!!!!
 
White Eagle
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RE: JAT May Get A Boeing 767, Other News!

Fri May 11, 2001 11:56 am

JAT

I don't think cost should be an issue in choosing to lease a B767-300ER versus an A330-200.

From what I have read, the range of costs for a 763 is $600-680K pm while it is $690-750 pm for the 332. Considering the 332's passenger and freight capacity as well as its greater range, I think the 332 comes out on top.

JAT's passenger base has been traditionally very ethnic. Also, demand has always been into Yugoslavia rather than out. Therefore, war and sanctions have not dampened Serbian Americans', Serbian Canadians' and Serbian Australians' desire to travel back to their homeland.

Prior to 1992, its DC-10s were flying near capacity. Therefore, the 763 would have great difficulty meeting passenger demand. Remember JAT was flying economy-class dominated flights (approx 270 Y class with a small Adriatic Class at the front).

I think that only the 332, 343 or possibly 772ER could match the freight and passenger capacity that JAT's DC-10-30s provided.

Hopefully JAT would not like to be restricted to transatlantic flights only. I'm sure that they would also like to fly to Australia. The 763 is not suited for such high-payload long distance flights. Ultimately, payload would need to be sacrificed.

Therefore, I restate that the 332 would better suit JAT's requirements. In the alternative, they should also consider A340-300Es which could also be picked up at a reasonable rate due to the slight surplus of available aircraft.
 
KUGN
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RE: JAT May Get A Boeing 767, Other News!

Fri May 11, 2001 1:10 pm

B763 is too large for JAT. I say, they better start with couple of B762s on flights to EWR (not JFK) and Toronto.

B763 was too large for Malev; leased 198 seater would do fine for beggining. I'm sure there are many 762s ready for lease arrangement.


Good news is that finally there is some sense coming from JAT. Perhaps, someone from their management has stumbled across airliners.net , Nevertheless, we should see to believe... in 2002 they might land their B762 on this continent again...
 
toxtethogrady
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Curious Sighting At Dulles...

Fri May 11, 2001 1:14 pm

Over at the Signature FBO ramp was a 727 in JAT colors. New ones, too (red and blue tail with a sort of winged logo on it). Wonder who it was and is it a hint of things to come (but then who flies a 727 transatlantic?)
 
White Eagle
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RE: Curious Sighting At Dulles...

Fri May 11, 2001 1:24 pm

Toxtethogrady,

No JAT is not flying 722s over the atlantic.

The jet was carrying President Vojislav Kostunica who is having discussions with President Bush.
 
White Eagle
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The 763 Too Large For Jat?

Fri May 11, 2001 1:39 pm

KUGN, Eastern European airlines should not be lumped together when considering which equipment to operate.

The 762 may be appropriate for MALEV. But the market between to Hungary has never been as developed as that to Serbia and Montenegro. Estimates put the Serbian ethnic population of North America at around 1 million people.

In fact, many people travelling to Serbia have used Budapest as their terminus for flights and then continued their trip by land during the sanctions regime and the war.

It is likely that MALEV's share of the South Eastern European market will fall even more with the re-entry of JAT across the Atlantic.

I think many people really underestimate the numbers that JAT could attract. At the height of its operations, prior to the sanctions regime, JAT was flying to New York-JFK, Chicago, Los Angeles, Detroit, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver! Now thats alot more than either MALEV, CSA or LOT.

Also, don't forget that JAT may be able to capitalise on demand from neighbouring countries such as that from Western Romania (Belgrade is closer and more accessable than Bucharest), Bosnia (a code-share agreement has been signed with 2 Serbian/Bosnian airlines), Macedonia, and don't forget Bulgaria whose national airline BALKAN has only one ageing Russian plane.
 
KUGN
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RE: JAT May Get A Boeing 767, Other News!

Fri May 11, 2001 1:59 pm

White Eagle, you have valid points when it comes to the colorful past of JAT, which I'm too very familiar with. And I know what you're talking about.

But I do think that you overestimate the potention of ethnic population in North America as a market that would immediately bring lucrative routes back to JAT. As the matter of fact, when JAT used to have extensive network in NA, it carried more ethnic groups than just Serbian. Right? Even all the way until 1999 it flew cash cow routes Pristina-Zurich, and now it is gone.

Market that JAT served went from 22 milion down to 11, and since war in 1999 to 7-8.

I'd like to see codeshare agreement on Balkans, but that is just not enough.

Potential is -- business travelers with EU.
Transatlantic market is more of the one you mentioned, and they trave once/twice a year, usually on discount rates. That is not how is made money today (it might have been back in JAT's prime days).

But then again, you never know with JAT. They might lease all their aircrafts to Nigeria and make a profit to cover losses on European routes.. or fill up that poor DC10 with you don't want to know what kind of passangers/cargo and fly it to Bejing twice a week with no weather radar...
 
White Eagle
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RE: JAT May Get A Boeing 767, Other News!

Fri May 11, 2001 2:29 pm

KUGN

Firstly, I don't think JAT has lost that many passengers from ex-Yugoslavia. I don't think many Croats and Slovenes travelled with JAT. Many often travelled with other airlines because many transatlantic flights went direct to Belgrade. They would have to back-track to get to Ljubljana or Zagreb.

However in other respects, I agree with you. I have read JAT's web material far too often! JAT's prospects cannot be solely found by flying over the Atlantic.

I personally think it is very rushed to start a transatlantic network when you haven't fixed up your backyard - Europe.

I think that they should seriously reconsider what kind of airline they want to be. A profitable airline is one which offers good frequencies, on-time departures, good aircraft, and good service. JAT has neither of these.

For one, get rid of those of Boeing 727s and DC-9s and even 737-300s. Replace them with A319s and A320s or 737NGs. At the very leasr, change your the old seating on the 737-300s.

Get rid of those old and arrogant stewardesses and counter staff.

Ensure that you have good hot food on your planes and not that stuff that's has been sitting in the galley for 3 days.

Finally, get management with a vision and business plan.

In the short term JAT, cannot rely on its ethnic population for support when other airlines offer much more.

It should focus on developing frequencies and cooperating with major European airlines on routes to Belgrade. Money, as you said is to be found from premium service.

I hope JAT does not revert to the old days of offerring deep discounted tickets and attracting only ethnic passengers.
 
JAT
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RE: JAT May Get A Boeing 767, Other News!

Sat May 12, 2001 7:43 am

New Livery? That would be interesting. Although I doubt it. My guess is it's just a hybrid, they lease a lot of their 722's to other carries, maybe they didn't repaint it compleatly.

Toxtethogrady:
Did you catch the reg? That would really help. I'm guessing you don't have pictures of the plane?
Does it resemble any of these:


Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Alastair T. Gardiner




Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © David Unsworth




Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Alastair T. Gardiner




Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Florian Kondziela



Was it like this? This is winged...

Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Oliver Pritzkow













 
tupolev154b2
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RE: JAT May Get A Boeing 767, Other News!

Sat May 12, 2001 8:18 am

Would U.S. sanctions prevent flights to the U.S.?
 
JAT
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RE: JAT May Get A Boeing 767, Other News!

Sat May 12, 2001 10:34 am

Get with the times Tupolev! Sanctions were lifted a few months ago  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
JU101
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Convenience To North America

Sun May 13, 2001 4:57 am

This is truely great news about JAT's confirmation with regards to resuming flights to North America, and I am certain that this airline will be very successful in the future. However this year, it is best that JAT operate from New York and Toronto, as was originally planned using one airplane. Its important to resume regular flights this year; and next year JAT can look at expanding its network.

Unfortunately, for residents living in Canada, the proposition of flying to New York/JFK is not favorable. There are no regular links between either Montreal, Ottawa, or Toronto to JFK... they have links with Newark instead. I am going to Yugoslavia this july/august (I reside in Canada), and have been waiting to see if i can fly direct, to BEG. Seeing that I probably wont be able to fly direct out of Canada, I have no choice but to book a flight through a Euro stop-over. Its really unfortunate, since I've been looking forward to fly direct (from Canada) to BEG with JAT for a long time now!

Nevertheless I expect that by next year, the company will be making many changes. The fleet addition should take a high-frequency service into consideration. (Unlike LOT, CSA, or Malev; B767-200, A310-200 are inadequate for JAT, however A340, A330 and B777 may be too large if they looked at maintaining a high flight frequency). I think three B767-300 (or A310-300) would be most feasible.
With regards to the middle-range fleet, the B737-300 are excellent, and compliment the demand well. Because of the introduction to trans-Atlantic traffic, no major addition to the middle-range fleet are expected. If any additions are made, they would be only about 2 planes (best would be either A319 or B737).
 
JU101
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Question: Malev & Future

Sun May 13, 2001 5:14 am

Since 1992, Yugoslavia had an on-and-off air-traffic embargo that lasted upto this present year. Primarily, as result of this embargo, Budapest became an important hub for South-Eastern Europe. While JAT planes were idle in BEG, Malev was never experiencd such a boom in traffic. With the the table's now turning in favour of BEG and JAT; what's next for Malev?

I've already heard that Malev's demand for trans-Atlantic flights have been significantly decreased, and the B767-200's are becoming too big for the airline. Do you people think Malev might consider reducing its fleet of B767's?
 
JAT
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RE: JAT May Get A Boeing 767, Other News!

Sun May 13, 2001 6:09 am

JU101, I am in the same situation as you, I was also looking forward to stepping on to JAT's DC-10 in YYZ and getting of in BEG. I guess that isn't going to happen since I already have tickets booked on KLM (YYZ-AMS) and JAT (AMS-BEG). I'm very happy though that I will be able to fly JAT, even if it's only a short flight.

The A330 I think is too big for now. The 763 would be good for the summer but I'm not sure how profitable it would be in the off season. Maybe they could offer flights from North America and cheap connections to Europe through Belgrade. Then again, Belgrade isn't exactly a very good transfer airport.

Speaking of A319's, I wonder how their planned Airbus purchase is doing. There was a news report a few months ago saying their going to have to reconsider and go for something cheaper and maybe smaller, I guess A318, which would nicely replace the DC-9 (which isn't even being used right now, which in turn results in fewer flights to smaller cities on the B737) and work nicely until they decide to retire the 737s. The 727's are just being used on domestic and charter flights and many of them are leased to other companies. I guess this is making them money so that's fine, but they should retire them, they aren't a leasing company, they are an airline.

Knowing how JAT and things in Yugoslavia generally work, you can only wait and see.
 
Guest

White Eagle

Sun May 13, 2001 6:47 am

Wow, I think your ready to step into JATs CEO position.

"According to the article, JAT will trade in YU-AMB for a Boeing 767. The 767 is still only a second-gen widebody which does not share any significant commonality with any other type they have operated or intend to operate."

When you say "second-generation", just what do you mean? Early 767s are second-generation airliners, but 767s built in the 1990s are certainly not. Please specify next time. The article did not even say this was to be a second-hand aircraft. It could be a new build a/c for all we know.

"From what I have read, the range of costs for a 763 is $600-680K pm while it is $690-750 pm for the 332. Considering the 332's passenger and freight capacity as well as its greater range, I think the 332 comes out on top."

But does JAT need the extra range of the A332? Yes, freight is a big thing for smaller, less developed regions like Yugoslovia, but do you have freight bulk statistics that show JAT desperately needs all that room? I think JAT would have shown more interest in the A330 if they seriously needed it. Anyway, look at Malev, Uzbekistan, Aeroflot, and LOT, which are all in the same region.

"Hopefully JAT would not like to be restricted to transatlantic flights only. I'm sure that they would also like to fly to Australia. The 763 is not suited for such high-payload long distance flights. Ultimately, payload would need to be sacrificed.

Just looking at other carriers in the same region (example, Malev), even to BKK, they report poor loads, and that is with 762s, so I doubt that JAT will be flying to SYD.

The best, Tom






 
tupolev154b2
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JAT

Sun May 13, 2001 7:00 am

Thanks and pardon my ignorance.
 
JAT
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RE: JAT May Get A Boeing 767, Other News!

Sun May 13, 2001 7:22 am

You bring up a good point King767, I wonder if they would lease a brand new 767 or a second-hand. My guess would be a used one, if they are cheaper, anyway. Also, I wonder if it would be a 762 or a 763, if it was a 762 it would have to be at least slightly used.

There are a lot of Yugoslav immigrants living in Australia, a flight to Singapore and then on to Sydney or Melbourne I believe could be profitable, at least in the summer. Especially if they have a convinient schedule that allows connections to Europe.

Freighth could be a money maker for JAT. Apparently they at times have so much freight for Zurich that they use the DC-10 even though there aren't enough passengers to merit it's use. If this is true there would also be freight for North America. Although, if the flights were frequent enough, my guess is the capacity of the 767 would be enough.
 
JU101
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Answers >>>

Sun May 13, 2001 8:14 am

Nice hearing from you Aleks!

Getting to your questions, the B767-300 would be excellent for the airline, even in the off-season. It might sound surprising but off-season travel to BEG is not as low as you may have suspected, especially now that the West have taken a total policy change towards Belgrade; which now promotes greater business opportunities and stronger communication. Furthermore, students and younger families are the main customers from June till September. Nevertheless you must remember that off-season travel takes high preference among other adults destined for countries such as Yugoslavia, where summer temperatures remain constant from the beginning of April till end of October, underlining that they would pay half of what you pay during summer!  Smile Not to mention the seasonal-rush from mid-December till nearly end of January.

Making BEG a transfer hub for Southeastern Europe is a great strategic plan, however it is not feasible for the travelers at this time, as long as FRY are not a member of EU. Visa restrictions are a hassle for travelers, and as long as USA and Canada have a visa regime imposed on FRY, BEG cannot become a hub.

As for your last paragraph...

(1) Without the DC9, JAT lacks an aircraft of the 100-seat capacity - A318 or B717 are perfect substitutions. Because B717 is not experiencing high demand, we are better off with an aircraft from the A320 family, the A318. However, only a few would be needed.

(2) B727-200 is flown only for (half the) domestic flights (BEG-TIV, BEG-TGD); due to overwhelming demand during the tourist season. There is no rush for their replacement yet; the few that are in use are serving very well, and more emphasis is going into the long-range fleet. However, sooner or later the B727s should be replaced by a few A319s; consequently raising frequency. The intention here is to keep a high frequency even during the non-tourist season (example: five A319 flights vs. three B727 flights).

(3) Overall the original agreement reached with Airbus in 1997 should be revised. I propose that within the next three years JAT will likely need 3 A318's and 3 A319's.

(4) There is absolutely no need to replace the B737-300.

(5) I think its most feasible to order three B767-300s, with regards to the long-range fleet. (two for North America and one for Australia) Though its served us well, the YU-AMB should be sold.


Ahhhh... FINALLY! Knowing the Serbian government, JAT will be encouraged to perform its tasks in an accelerated way, or else they will lose their support. As a final note, say goodbye to reminiscing about the good-old days, as better are certain to come!


Caos  Smile
 
JAT
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RE: JAT May Get A Boeing 767, Other News!

Sun May 13, 2001 9:06 am

Tne 767-300. I also agree that this would be the best solution. Leasing 2 or 3 for the first 2-3 years. Assuming travel demand grows, (as it probably will seeing as the economic situation of the citizens can only get better) purchase 3-4 763 (about 5-7 years from now) and in 9-12 years a few B777 could be considered for long flights, i.e LA, Vancouver, Australia. This is just my layman's assesment of course. If they go with Airbus it would then A330's and A340's instead of the 767's and 777's.

According to JAT they still plan to get 8 new aircraft, I'm guessing it would be a mix of Airbuses, A319's and 318s.

The 727-200 could remain doing charter work for a while, until JAT is able to purchase more efficent aircradt for this type of work.

The DC-10 could be turned into a freighter.

The 737-300's should eventually be updated, for starters reduce seating from 138 to 126 pax.

RJ's could also be considered for work to surrounding countries.

That is my assesment of the situation...

JU101: "say goodbye to reminiscing about the good-old days, as better are certain to come!" That sounds like a good motto for JAT!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
KUGN
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RE: JAT May Get A Boeing 767, Other News!

Sun May 13, 2001 9:07 am

I second opting for EWR as US service destination for JAT; they haven't been flying to JFK in recent years, and now would be good time to chage the airport, so that they could make senseble codeshares. EWR has connections to all potential markets for JAT - including Canada.

On general macroeconimic level I disagree: there is unsubstantiated belief that JAT could do better than Malev; I doubt that. Malev, and more importantly Hungary and Ferihegy airport itself have far surpassed Yugoslavia in last decade. Hungary is soon to be EU member, and its airport, with two runways and two terminals have positioned themselves as major Central/Eastern European hub, passanger and cargo wise when making connections to the Middle East, and other Eastern European countries.

Budapest airport is in competition with Prague (fiercly, since CSA joined SkyTeam) and Warsaw's brand new hub (and LOT's tremendous success). Belgrade airport and JAT are far behind Budapest in terms of western and middle east markets today -- and stories about JAT's success in 80s does nothing to assure me that this an be changed. Restauring transatlantic services won't do the trick.

Malev has grown to carry 2 million passangers a year (aprox same as CSA), which is about equal to the number of JAT's travellers; however if you look at the demographics, you'll see who is flying more business travelers who make money to the airline. Where would EU national who can purchase full fare tickets rather transfer flights? Lets be real.


On future plans note --- trying to descramble "newspeak" common in JAT's press releases, I'd guess that under [i]"2nd generation"[/i] they've implied 767-300 as it is the 2nd generetion of 767.

What seems to be funny in their releases is that they cite the [i]"lack of commonality with the types they intend to operate"[/i] (we know that they've planned A319 purchase) or [i]"operated"[/i] in past. But they haven't operated anything more recent than 733, or DC10-30 in wide body / long haul cathegory!

So what do they reffer then to? If alleged 763 ('2nd gen 767') is not good enough, what is then? B764?  Smile Or A330-300? It does not make sense, when one takes the reality into consideration.

The truth is that JAT is in no condition to make long term decesions on its wide body fleet purchase at this time. What they need is scalability which is leasing.

The major problem is again [b]the management[/b]. It is still the old state owned airline mentality that emphesizes "big" and "impressive" rather than making sound decesions that would improve the airline economy. There you get ideas like replace B722 with A319 when you already have sufficient B733 fleet, JFK as the service destination (airport well known to Yugoslav public) rather than EWR (which is not), statements like alleged 763 is not good (big or modern?) enough.

I hate to break the bad news, but I'm still not convinced that we aren't fed with state owned corporate propaganda; the alternative is that JAT is still not being honest with itself when it plans important decesions for its future.

 
JU101
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JAT And The Euro-Trio

Sun May 13, 2001 12:24 pm

With regards to USA, perhaps JAT may choose to fly directly only to New York, while joining in an alliance with one American airline company, to service its passengers onward, from New York. In that case, within one year, the airline is bound to fly daily. I have to admire what the CSA have accomplished, joining Skyservice. Direct flights between New York and Prague cost only 1100 USD, during the peak of the summer season. From New York, passengers bound for Chicago fly in a seperate aircraft. As a result, the price for traveling from Chicago to Prague (VIA New York) is 1210 USD, just 110 USD more! Without a partership, however, the cheapest ticket between Chicago and New York would fetch no less than 350 USD. On the other hand Malev maintains an inexpensive service between New York and Budapest, 910 USD, which is quite impressive. However, because Malev doesnt belong to any alliance the cost for flying between Chicago and Budapest (via New York) is substancially higher. Minimum price amounts to 1450 USD. Thats why partership is the key!

With regards to Canada, other than this year, I am certain that JAT will fly direct to Toronto and Montreal, as it has done previously. There is no reason why JAT wouldnt want to service these cities itself.

To be honest, I certainly dont think it was JAT's intention to concentrate on the market in the middle-east, since it services flights with a stop-over in either Istanbul or Larnaca, and its targetted soley on passengers in those respective countries. Nevertheless, it cannot be concievable that any of the airlines in Central, Eastern or Southeastern Europe could be inferior to a neighbouring competitor. Especially since Lufthansa (via Munich) is looking to take the newly aquired market share that LOT, CSA, and Malev have already aquired in the region during the 1990s.

In my opinion JAT currently have a well defined network in Europe, Africa and Asia, covering numerous destinations. As the economy continues its promising growth tendancies, JAT will simply need to intensify its flight frequencies. Analysts acknowledge that the airline can run its network with its current fleet of B737-300s and ATR72s aircraft for a few years, but a fleet expansion is inevitable. No midrange Airbus aircraft deliveries at least till next year. And if any deliveries are made, they are likely to be for the remaining B727s that are used on domestic flights.

Overall its great to see good-spirited competition making its way in Southeastern, Central, and Eastern Europe; since we can all benefit!

JAT ...It's more than flying!  Smile
 
White Eagle
Posts: 61
Joined: Wed May 02, 2001 12:32 pm

RE: Confusion! Confusion!

Sun May 13, 2001 12:50 pm

Dear all

My post dated 5 May is not a translation of JAT's press release. A Forum member (JAT) translated the newspaper article very well in his first post.

The comments about the second-gen aircraft are entirely mine.

JAT has only ever operated first gen aircraft (ie DC-9, DC-10 and B727). References to second-gen aircraft imply that it belongs to the following type of aircraft with more modern avionics eg B767, 757, A310, A300-600 etc. Third gen aircraft are fly-by-wire aircraft eg A320, A330, A340, 737NG, and B777.

My reasoning is that if an airline has never operated a 767, then there is no need to start operating one now if a better aircraft is available for a slighly higher price eg A330. If it is isn't a better aircraft, why then are airlines replacing their 7-10 year old 767-300ERs with the type (eg Asiana, Eva Air, Air France, SAS, Gulf Air, QANTAS etc).

The fact that MALEV and LOT use 767s is no reason to start operating them now. These airlines have been using the aircraft since the early 90s were the very first wide-bodies that these two airlines operated.

Belgrade has got strong development potential. Budapest will never develop into a major hub because MALEV is not part nor is it likely to be part of major alliance. Alitalia did have a stake but sold it very quickly. The fact of the matter is that it is too close to Prague (a SkyTeam hub-30 minutes away by air), and Vienna (a Star Alliance hub-20 minutes away by air) to have any significant future development.

Belgrade on the other hand is a bit more removed from Vienna and Prague. Belgrade's development can focussed on the South Eastern European niche (Serbia, Romania, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Greece and Turkey). Both Vienna and Prague are North-East developing hubs(predominantly routes to Poland, Czech Republic, Hungary, the Baltic States etc).

Inbound cargo had previously been an important revenue earner to JAT. Therefore, the 50% or so greater cargo capacity of the 332 will be well used. Also, the 767 can only take special 767-only cargo pallets which cannot be used on any other aircraft. The 332 uses standard cargo pallets.

I believe that the 332 would better suit JAT's development. The 763 cannot fly to the US West Coast and to South East Asia from Belgrade without severe payload restrictions. Los Angeles, Singapore, Sydney and Melbourne will undoubtedly be JAT's destinations after NY, Chicago and Toronto because those cities have large Serbian populations. All I say is think ahead!

On the Newark issue, flying to Newark does not prevent you from flying to JFK. Many European airlines fly to both eg Lufthansa, Swissair, Sabena, Air France, TAP, El Al etc. Therefore, one day you could fly to JFK once you have developed other parts of your network.

On the short-haul aircraft issue, if JAT is firmly committed to the A319s, I say keep them. I do not see a need to introduce the 717 in tandem with the A319 when you have a similar A318 on offer from Airbus. Replace the DC-9s with the A318 and the 727s with 320s or even A321s. With this type of fleet, I see no need to retain the B737-300s.

 
kevin
Posts: 1015
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2000 5:03 am

RE: JAT May Get A Boeing 767, Other News!

Sun May 13, 2001 1:05 pm

If Milosevic still was at the "wheel", JAT would probably choose a political move and buy or lease the IL 96-300 or IL 96M (closer relations with Moscow). I wish this could happen since it would boost the IL96M program.

But since political moods change now JAT will go for a 767-300 or A340, or it will surprise us all and lease a B777 as Aeroflot did.
Good luck to JAT anyways . Flew with them back in 1990 from Kiev to Split. Nice flight.
 
KUGN
Posts: 606
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2000 4:36 am

RE: JAT May Get A Boeing 767, Other News!

Sun May 13, 2001 1:11 pm

White Eagle, are you suggesting that JAT is the airline comparable to Lufthansa, Swissair, Sabena, Air France, TAP, El Al?

On Budapest matter - it is home base of Malev, but that is not the exclusive airline that operates from there; the airport infrastructure has by far surpassed the Belgrade airport which used to be southeastern gateway to Europe in 80s. Today, it is more likely to be Budapest. Distance does not play any important role, as both airports are only some 25 minutes apart. As the matter of fact Tyrolean feeder flights from Budapest are half shorter than JAT's ATR flight to Vienna.

As your idea about conversion to Airbus technology, its a talk about the task equal to starting a new airline. JAT has 30+ years of experiance on Boeing equipment, and that workforce experiance is about the only thing that is left worth in the airline. Swtiching to Airbus technology might not be bad idea, but poor airlines like JAT could hardly afford the task themselves.


JAT ought to be privatised, entering into strategic relationship with a major, like Lufthansa; unfortunately, it is taboo in JAT, especially with this old school management. Balkan's demise certainly has strengthen their pro-independence line, but where they plan to get the money for their future growth is beyond me.
 
KUGN
Posts: 606
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2000 4:36 am

RE: JAT May Get A Boeing 767, Other News!

Sun May 13, 2001 1:26 pm

Milosevic directed purchase of A319s; not even he wanted IL96s. There have been few shady firms with close ties to Milosevic who own(ed?) soviet built cargo aircrafts, registered in Ukraine and other countries.

This is interesting marketing concept to boost IL96M progam; perheps they could do boost it with North Korea instead?
 
JU101
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RE: Confusion! Confusion!

Sun May 13, 2001 2:00 pm

White Eagle,

In principle I agree with all your opinions. Budapest is unlikely to become a true hub, though we must appreciated that Budapest Airport and Malev have genuinely improved, and at least are able to solidly contend with airtravel in Hungary.

With regards to JAT's fleet I do not favor a large expansion. The size of JAT's medium-range fleet is too large, though its ackward to acknowledge, because its never big enough!  Smile However the optimal size of our medium-range fleet should consist of no more than 15 planes. Nine B737-300s plus an additional six Airbus would be plenty. I can assure you that JAT does not plan on seriously looking at medium range planes larger than the 150 seater in a two-class configuration. This means that we can exclude B757, A320 and A321s, since their primary objective is to observe a high frequency on all its routes. A319 and A318s are very favourable, because they would perfectly compliment selected destintions in Southeastern Europe and Scandinavia.

Overall, most excitingly is our trans-Oceanic potential. Unlike any other European airline outside EU & Russia, there is no other airline with such a solid potential as is JAT with future flights to USA, Canada, and Australia. I can understand how many people think that JAT's potential is no greater than any other airline in this part of Europe. The argument that we are associating JAT's potential with passed success of the 1980s, as some have alleged, is not true. However I certainly do not want to diminish the success of LOT, CSA, and Malev. I have a strong affirmation that LOT will maintain its current market position - as it also has a very strong market base in North America. CSA's strategic alliance with Skyservice, ensures that Munich-based Lufthansa will not target it as strongly. I feel that Austrian Airlines and Malev will either go on a slight decline, or will have a stagnated growth as a result of three main factors:

(1) Lufthansa's growing hunger for its expansion at Munich
(2) JAT's re-introduction
(3) CSA's alliance
 
Guest

RE: Confusion! Confusion!

Sun May 13, 2001 3:46 pm

I saw a report on Flight International saying that JAT has scrapped the plan to buy A319s.
 
White Eagle
Posts: 61
Joined: Wed May 02, 2001 12:32 pm

Kugn

Sun May 13, 2001 4:02 pm

KUGN

I want this topic to end soon.

I am not suggesting that JAT is comparable to Lufthansa, Air France or Swissair. However, it is comparable to TAP, El Al, Aer Lingus, and LOT.Therefore, in five years, I envisage an airline flying 5-6 long range aircraft, and up to 20 medium range planes.

As you rightly pointed out, I think JAT should come down to earth and regard it itself as a start up. As you well know, many start-ups lease aircraft, so why shouldn't JAT lease them either. This type of financing does not require JAT to have cash now and would depend on JAT having steady future cashflows to meet lease repayments. No differrent to any start-up.

In terms of choosing Airbus products, I think the operation of Boeings previously does not prevent conversion to an all airbus fleets, merely for technical reasons. There are plenty of airlines which have gone Boeing to Airbus (Swissair, Austrian, Aer Lingus, LanChile etc).

In the short-term, I think JAT will have great difficulty turning to Boeing just because of the public's view about the recent war.

However, the development of relations with Europe, namely France, is especially important to the current goverment in Belgrade. Therefore, I think any order (lease or ownership) will inevitably go to Airbus.

On the Budapest issue, I never suggested that Budapest is ever a bad or undeveloped airport. Its infrastructure maybe better than Belgrade's. However, you've misunderstood my point on hubs. Essentially, you cannot have succesful hubs near each other if they are owned by the same airline or part of the same alliance. See for example the problems envisaged from a mooted Delta and Continental merger. An expanded Delta could not have maintained both Cincinatti and Cleveland as hubs. Theyr'e just too close to each other.

Your point about Tyrolean perfectly illustrates my point. If Budapest was a hub, you would not have regional airlines flying to it. Instead, you would have OS flights.

Budapest may be a great airport, but its development is curtailed by the proximity of rival hubs. Therefore, it is likely that it will only ever be a destination and not a transit point. This point is exactly whats stopping major airlines investing in MALEV. No Star airline would dare invest because of opposition from Austrian. I don't see any SkyTeam airline investing because they have CSA. It is likely that LOT will become part of OneWorld when SR joins, as it is expected to. MALEV has been left out in the cold by major alliances.

On the other hand, unlikely as it seems now and I am in no way saying it is going to happen, just a possibility that it may happen that JAT be allowed one day to join SkyTeam or OneWorld because neither currently has a hub that would directly compete with Belgrade. I doubt that JAT would ever form part of Star, again because of Austrian. I am not saying that this is what's going to happen or happen any time soon, I'm just saying that JAT has better prospects because it is further away from competing Eastern European carriers.

The development of Budapest as an airport is integrally linked to the future of MALEV, despite how many foreign carriers operate there.
 
White Eagle
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Jiml1126

Sun May 13, 2001 4:12 pm

I have read it too. However, its is not correct.

JAT's previous CEO (since replaced) announced that JAT was reconsidering the Airbus A319 deal because of costs and because the a319 is very close in size to their 733s.

Believe it or not, when ordering the 319s they believed that they were going to be replacements for the 722s!! If that was the case, I think the 320 or 321 would have been a better choice?

Since then, the need to replace the DC-9s has become greater. Therefore, JAT was hoping to downsize the 319s to 318s (which were not available at the time of the order). While bargaining, I think JAT suggested that it might not proceed with Airbus and may order dirt-cheap 717s from Boeing as DC9 replacements!

At the end of the day, I think they'll stick to Airbus.
 
Monte
Posts: 69
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2000 10:26 pm

RE: JAT May Get A Boeing 767, Other News!

Sun May 13, 2001 7:32 pm

I would be glad to see JAT renew the service to JFK, but I doubt that the airline has serious potential for growth. Yugoslavia is 1/3 of what it was in the '80s, and its population is several times poorer. At present Yugoslavia (= Serbia w/o Kosovo) has a market of less then 8 mil. people, most of whom can hardly afford to fly.

Serbian immigrants commonly fly home once a year, and seek cheapest fares (I know because I am one of them). We do not represent a significant market.

Besides, JAT faces very strong competition from foreign airlines flying into Belgrade (Austrian, Lufthansa etc.). Budapest connections are also extremely cheap, last time I paid only $500 to fly BUD-FRA-SFO on LH, and I seriously doubt that JAT can undercut this price and still make a profit.

Regarding the overall strategy, I am not too well informed about profitability of JAT's current routes, but if I was the CEO, I would rather focus on making current routes profitable then on expanding at any price.

BTW, how good is JAT's domestic network? Apart from flying to TIV and TGD, do they fly anywhere else? Nish or Uzice, perhaps? How frequently do they fly to neighbouring countries: Sarajevo, Skopje, Sofia, Timisoara, Bucharest?
 
JU101
Posts: 831
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2001 1:57 am

Domestic Network

Mon May 14, 2001 2:34 am

Monte:
JATs domestic-network isn't as good as it was in 1997 (the only year of stability in the 1990s).

JAT no longer services regular flights to Pristina (PRI), because of security reasons.

The runways and airport terminal at Nis (NIS) were heavily bombed by NATO, and it is still not open to civilian traffic. Reconstruction is in process, and is totally financed by the private sector. The main airport runway is not complete, and will require additional financial support. The Nis Airport terminal is complete, and nearly all ground equipment has been revitalized. At its best days, Nis Airport had 2.500.000 passengers annually, most of whom were destined for Bulgaria. Currently the airport terminal is, as I recall, used as a "shopping center". I'll try to inquire on this, and I'll get back to you on some other occasion. NIS does not have the same prospects as BEG, TIV, TGD - but it will certainly service direct flights for some major European cities, as well as regional flights to SKP, TIV, and TGD - as it did before.

Tivat airport (TIV) is open, and running. I think that modernization of the airport terminal will be required, but it is fairly busy these days. As for BEG departures, JAT maintains a minimum of 6 regularly scheduled flights daily, plus JAT has direct flights between TIV and Russia.

Podgorica's Golubovci Airport (TGD) was also heavily damaged during the war, however the entire airport was reconstructed. JAT maintains at least three daily flights in the BEG-TGD relation. However its fairly busy with other domestic and international flights.

Uzice (Ponikve Airbase) is not used for civilian traffic. It is actually the largest aboveground airbase in Yugoslavia, next to Belgrade (Batajnica Airbase). Uzice is busy as usual  Smile

With regards to the Balkan Peninsula, regular flights are serviced from Belgrade Surcin Airport (BEG) to:
Banjaluka (BNX) - 3 weekly*
Skopje (SKP) - 2 weekly
Sofia (SOF) - 2 weekly
Thessalonika (SKG) - 2 weekly
Athens (ATH) - 2 weekly
Ljubljana (LJU) - 2 weekly**

*Three flights/week are serviced by JAT, however JAT and AirSrpska have signed a code-share agreement, so I assume AirSrpska will additionally fly three more.

**JAT and Adria have signed a code-share agreement. JAT services 2 flights/week, while Adria services 2 flights/week.
 
JAT
Topic Author
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RE: JAT May Get A Boeing 767, Other News!

Mon May 14, 2001 2:44 am

When do the Adria/JAT flights to/from Ljubljana start?
 
CB777
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RE: JAT May Get A Boeing 767, Other News!

Mon May 14, 2001 4:41 am

Does anyone think JAT will start flying to Croatia. Such as Zagreb, Split, Dubrovnik ect.


CB777
 
Guest

White Eagle

Mon May 14, 2001 7:25 am

White Eagle,
Your comparisons prove to us that you seem to be misinformed, or just uneducated in this field. It makes no sense to call the 767 a 2nd Gen a/c just because it lacks FBW. A new 767 with the new LCD cockpit and updated interior is just as competitive as a new A330, period. The 767 and A330 suprisingly serve very different markets, and one is not better than the other. The reason why you see airlines switching to the A330 is because, 1). They are standardizing on Airbus products, or 2). Their market, for example, EVA, in Asia, freight is a big income, and the A330s large cargo hold is needed. Your reasoning that every airline would be operating the A330 if the 767 had not come out before it shows ignorance.

The distance between Belgrade and, Los Angeles for example is 5,581nm. The range of the 763ER is 6,100nm, and range of the A332 is 6,400nm. Both aircraft are capable of that route. The distances from belgrade to south east Asia are even shorter, so figure.

-Tom
 
JU101
Posts: 831
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RE: White Eagle

Mon May 14, 2001 9:54 am

I highly doubt that there will be air links between Croatia and Yugoslavia. Both states are still far apart in any real sense, and there is an unending insecurity and mistrust amongst one-another. Serbs have no interest in spending money, or vacationing in a land where their own people (600.000 of whom) were forcefully cleansed out of their homes.

In addition, there would be a great fear of safety, if flights would ever be introduced. Even in the days of the socialist Yugoslavia, JAT lost one aircraft do to terrorist actions in 1974. Investigators confirmed that the responsible murdurers were a gang of Croatian (ustasa) thugs that planted a bomb on a DC9-30 (YU-AHT). The plane exploded over Czech territory, at an altitude of 10km - amazingly one stewardess survived the 10km free-fall; in the tail-section of the aircraft. She was entered in the "Gueniss Book of World Records" as a result, and today lives in Belgrade. One may argue that this was a long time ago, however such gangs have resurfaced in Croatian society, and are causing disorder even in Croatia.
 
White Eagle
Posts: 61
Joined: Wed May 02, 2001 12:32 pm

King767?

Mon May 14, 2001 3:27 pm

King767

I may be miseducated in this area, you may be highly educated in this field.

However, there is no denial that the 767-300ER has been a major underperformer in terms of sales since the introduction of the A330-200.

Most of its sales now go only to major US and Japanese carriers with 50 plus fleets of the type where the introduction of the 332 is not feasible for technical and political reasons. You name me one major non-US or Non-Japanese carrier which has bought big numbers of new 767-300ERs in the last two years. I think you'll find some difficulty!

Despite what you argue, the 332 and the 767-300ER do compete in the same market, mainly transatlantic routes.

In regard to flights to South East Asia and the US West Coast, the 767 may be able fly there from Europe. It has the range. But as it approaching its range it has to sacrifice its payload of passengers and freight. Essentially, the airline cannot sell valuable seats and freight.

My point is, if you are going to pay good money for an aircraft, you would hope to be able to maximise your money out of it. Given that prices are roughly comparable why would you buy or lease the worser performing aircraft.

Having said that, I don't know of any airline that operates 767-300ERs from Europe to SE Asia. SAS does fly them to Bangkok, but only with one stop to Singapore. However, they are replacing such "timeless" aircraft with A340s and A330s. How dare they given it uses such modern 1970s avionics. Yes, the 767 first flew in 1980. Its development started in 1977. The aircraft is no longer in its prime! Accept it.

The truth of the matter is that FBW offers much more than just a joy-stick cockpit. All mechanical componants are replaced with wire. It leads to significant weight reduction and other benefits like less maintenance of hydraulic components.

You sound like you have been reading a bit too much mid 1980s Boeing literature. If FBW does not sell aircraft, why then did Boeing use it on the B777 and 737NG.

I won't discuss the issue any more. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion. If you like the 767 great for you!
 
Monte
Posts: 69
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2000 10:26 pm

RE: JAT May Get A Boeing 767, Other News!

Mon May 14, 2001 4:32 pm

JU101, thank you for extensive info on JAT's routes.

Regarding Uzice, I am almost certain that JAT operated an ATR-72 on a civilian Uzice-TIV route at one point during summers of 1996-1998.

BTW, I noticed some strange a/c operating into TIV in the last summer... some aircraft painted in Ukraine Airlines c/s, and a B727 with unrecognizable white livery w/ birds on the tail. Do you know anything about these? I was also surpised to see the JAT DC-10 a few times in TIV. Why would they use it on such a short route?

Regarding flights from Croatia to Yugoslavia, I think there is a significant potential market for BEG-ZAG (business travelers) or even BEG-SPU (seasonal). Of course, security concerns would have to be overcome first.

JAT in Zagreb in 1999:

Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Tomislav Muic

 
9A-CRO
Crew
Posts: 1529
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RE: JAT May Get A Boeing 767, Other News!

Mon May 14, 2001 6:38 pm

JU101 - cut the crap, Croatia did not attack Serbian people, it was the other way round,
that they fled it is their fault (or guilty conscience???) - they were explicitly invited to stay but they did not - the call was transimetted repeatedly on TV and radion during the opeartion Storm
of course, they might be some spontaneus actions by individuals against some Serbs that were once negihbours but in early ninietes they killed that mans friends and family or robbed his house
(I talked with woman who was in RSK during the Serb ocupation, local sSerbs were a lot more vicious than these dragged from Serbia)
When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward...
 
Guest

White Eagle

Mon May 14, 2001 6:45 pm

You sound like you have been reading a bit too much mid 1980s Boeing literature. If FBW does not sell aircraft, why then did Boeing use it on the B777 and 737NG.

Just for your information the 777 is the only FBW aircraft Boeing builds today. The 737NG doesn´t use FBW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 
Guest

White Eagle

Mon May 14, 2001 11:12 pm

"However, there is no denial that the 767-300ER has been a major underperformer in terms of sales since the introduction of the A330-200."

You have to realize that the 763ER and A332 do not compete! They serve very different roles, and one is not better than the other. Yes the A332 is very successful, but the majority of the airlines who purchased this a/c did not even consider the 763 because it did not fit thier needs. That does not mean the A332 is "better".


Most of its sales now go only to major US and Japanese carriers with 50 plus fleets of the type where the introduction of the 332 is not feasible for technical and political reasons. You name me one major non-US or Non-Japanese carrier which has bought big numbers of new 767-300ERs in the last two years. I think you'll find some difficulty!

Hmm, Hainan Airlines has ordered 3 763s with intent to operate 10 more 763s. CO is a newcomer to the 767. Cameroon Airlines could have certainly gone for the A330, but chose the 763. Balair is operating new 763s. And there are a few more airlines currently evaluating the 76.

Despite what you argue, the 332 and the 767-300ER do compete in the same market, mainly transatlantic routes.

They do not. The A330 is best suited for smaller national airlines which do not operate a high long range frequency, and need the large capacity of the A330. For example SR, SN, EI etc. The 767 is best suited for airlines with high frequency operations, which need a very flexible aircraft which can operate both long range routes and shorter heavy regional routes. For example any major US airline with a heavy domestic and international network. The 767 is also good for smaller carriers, examples are Uzbekistan, which just ordered 2 more 763s, LOT, Malev, etc.

"In regard to flights to South East Asia and the US West Coast, the 767 may be able fly there from Europe. It has the range. But as it approaching its range it has to sacrifice its payload of passengers and freight. Essentially, the airline cannot sell valuable seats and freight."

You are right, but both A330 and 767 are not designed for the ultra-range routes you mention. The range difference between the 763ER and A332 is not much, so both aircraft would suffer from payload restrictions.

"My point is, if you are going to pay good money for an aircraft, you would hope to be able to maximise your money out of it. Given that prices are roughly comparable why would you buy or lease the worser performing aircraft.

"worser performing aircraft"? I suggest you take a look at a performance data book.

"Having said that, I don't know of any airline that operates 767-300ERs from Europe to SE Asia. SAS does fly them to Bangkok, but only with one stop to Singapore. However, they are replacing such "timeless" aircraft with A340s and A330s. How dare they given it uses such modern 1970s avionics. Yes, the 767 first flew in 1980. Its development started in 1977. The aircraft is no longer in its prime! Accept it."

Yes, SAS is reaplcing the 767 with the A330 due to the fact that cargo is such a big income in Europe. 1970s avionics? You don't know much about the 767. The 767 has been quietly updated over time as such advances occur. And the latest advance came, thanks to the 777, it's new LCD cockpit. Anyway, there is nothing ancient about a CRT cockpit. So I take it you are saying the CRJ is outdated too? The CRJ uses CRTs. No, the 767 is not currently in it's prime, but all a/c experience what I call a "dry-period", when there is not great demand for a type due to the fact that there is a substancial number of that type on the market. It has nothing to do with the aircraft itself. The A330 too will experience a dry period. Once the earliest 767 are ready for cargo conversion, new 767 orders will come in. You know, Boeing does not just spit out 76s for the hell of it  Smile.

"The truth of the matter is that FBW offers much more than just a joy-stick cockpit. All mechanical componants are replaced with wire. It leads to significant weight reduction and other benefits like less maintenance of hydraulic components."

Yes, FBW has it's advantages, but it certainly is not the greatest thing since the jet engine. I would like to see some data that shows how "significant" the weight reduction is too. I know of a few aircraft which were developed in the past 10 years without FBW. That's why I like the 767, because the pilot actually flys it  Smile.

"You sound like you have been reading a bit too much mid 1980s Boeing literature. If FBW does not sell aircraft, why then did Boeing use it on the B777 and 737NG."

Well, for starters the 737NG does not have FBW, and look at how well it's doing. It was a good idea that Boeing incorporated FBW into the 777, such a large a/c needs FBW. Boeing certainly made me happy by taking FBW and making it different, a way I certainly think it's the future of FBW.

-Tom












 
JAT
Topic Author
Posts: 1064
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RE: JAT May Get A Boeing 767, Other News!

Tue May 15, 2001 6:29 am

Let's keep this aviation-only, i.e. no politics! Secondly, don't make it an Airbus vs. Boeing thing.

Monte, the thing with the birds on the tail is Abuja Shuttle I think, JAT leased DC-9's to them as far as I know, I saw a pocture of one in "Airliner World". I guess they just didn't have time to repaint it.

There is huge market potential for BEG-ZAG-BEG. All the business travel.
 
9A-CRO
Crew
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RE: JAT May Get A Boeing 767, Other News!

Tue May 15, 2001 7:08 am

JAT - I had to react to some things mentioned here
I am not sure if ZAG-BEG-ZAG route has big potential,
the distance by road is only about 400km, and since not many people from both Croatia, and SRJ even less have excess quantities of money, the car and bus
are too good alternatives
When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward...
 
JU101
Posts: 831
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2001 1:57 am

9A-CRO, Montre

Tue May 15, 2001 11:35 am

Tomislav, my intention is not to talk politics here, however I find it irresponsible for you to give these two statements. The questions I ask are rhetorical, and require no response.

"Croatia did not attack Serbian people, it was the other way round"
-- What explains the forced exodus of 800.000 Serbs from Croatia?

"they were explicitly invited to stay but they did not"
-- Such statements were state propoganda orchestrated by the late, Franjo Tudjman, to please the western media. Much of the minority that did ended up in mass graves, such as the one (currently) being excavated by the War Crimes Tribunal for the former SFRY, in Knin.

Dont misunderstand; it imparative that Serbs and Croats find a peaceful coexistence - respecting each others dignity, such as the standard practice carried out between other civilized European nations. As an aside, I enjoy the pics you provide from Pleso, its very admirable.

By the way Monte, the picture of the JAT B727-200 at Zagreb was the only Serbian civil aircraft to land there since Croatia's exit from the Yugoslav Federation. That aircraft was carrying the Yugoslav national soccer team for their EURO'2000 qualifier against Croatia. With regards to organised transport contacts between Croatia and FRY & RS, it would be most conveniently carried out by buses and trains.
 
JU101
Posts: 831
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2001 1:57 am

Latest News On BEG-JFK-BEG

Tue May 15, 2001 2:19 pm

The latest HOT information is as follows:


BEG-JFK (JU500) Flight duration: 9:30hrs (nonstop)

DEPARTURE: ARRIVAL:
MON ...12:30 ...16:00
THU ...12:30 ...16:00
SAT ...10:30 ...14:00


JFK-BEG (JU501) Flight duration: 8:50hrs (nonstop)

DEPARTURE: ARRIVAL:
MON ...18:00 ...8:50*
THU ...18:00 ...8:50*
SAT ...16:00 ...6:50*


From the information I was provided, these scheduled flights will be conducted using the DC10 (YU-AMB). All Major travel agencies (in USA & Canada) can as of today sell tickets for flights JU500 and JU501.

I wasnt too enthusiastic when rumors surfaced about the possibility of renting a B767 instead of using the DC10, because one must appreciate that such decisions cannot be placed into action within such a short period of time. The DC10 can carry 271 passengers, indeed more than the B767-200/300. This season demand is sky-high, so its better to stick with the largest plane for now... However, with reference to the future (next year), very serious decisions will have to be made with regards to the wide-body fleet expansion (arguments for/against B767 VS. A330), as well as development plans for JAT's North American network.

Overall, its most important to first set foot in North America, and then we can continue with these great discussions as to what course our beloved airline should take. Furthermore, with this official flight schedule, I assume that the U.S. flight authorities have now approved all necessary licenses to JAT  Smile

*Arrivals on the next day.
 
9A-CRO
Crew
Posts: 1529
Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2000 3:53 pm

RE: JAT May Get A Boeing 767, Other News!

Tue May 15, 2001 4:11 pm

actually there was at least one landing before - ATR72, also a sports team, I think it was some basketball club from Belgrade
after it Kostunica also flew to Zagreb for summit
When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward...
 
KUGN
Posts: 606
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2000 4:36 am

RE: JAT May Get A Boeing 767, Other News!

Tue May 15, 2001 10:20 pm

JU101, is that the same YU-AMB that was only month ago rumored to be leased out to Nigeria? If it is the same one, then JAT's management is in state of chaos, not being able to plan one month ahead.

Supposedly, they have performed their very first D check in own hangar; however, they still had to fly it to Rome for some engine repair. If your source is right, they have gained the certificate for that aircraft.

But are you serious about putting 270 seater in service between such poor country and JFK itself without previously providing codeshare agreement with some other airline? Are they going to be able to fill it up with pax from NYC area only? Or, have they at least secured agreement for flight rights to Sofia (which would be no brainer)?

I still hold firm in belief that the right way would be to enter the service with leased B762. JAT is poor national airline of poor country, and they should seriously study cost per mile seat, and consider leasing B757-200ERs and 767 series.

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