trickijedi
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Is A 767 Considered A "heavy"?

Wed May 23, 2001 11:34 am

What planes are considered "heavies" other than the bovious (747)?
Its better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air than be in the air wishing you were on the ground. Fly safe!
 
mjb69
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RE: Is A 767 Considered A "heavy"?

Wed May 23, 2001 11:36 am

trickijedi-

As far as I know the following are "heavies"

747, 767, 777, L-1011, DC-10/MD-11, A330, A340

mjb69
 
trickijedi
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RE: Is A 767 Considered A "heavy"?

Wed May 23, 2001 11:45 am

Thanks!
Its better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air than be in the air wishing you were on the ground. Fly safe!
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: Is A 767 Considered A "heavy"?

Wed May 23, 2001 11:49 am

I think the prerequsites for a "heavy" are that the aircraft weighs more than 400,000 lbs.

So that would include DC-8's and A300's as well.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
gmonney
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RE: Is A 767 Considered A "heavy"?

Wed May 23, 2001 11:52 am

I guess that would be all of the wide bodies!!

Grant
Drive it like you stole it!
 
JETPILOT
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RE: Is A 767 Considered A "heavy"?

Wed May 23, 2001 11:53 am

A310 too !! I think the 757/300 makes that list.

DC8 depending on the model has a MGTOW of 355,000 pounds or less.

Defenition of a heavy is an AC capable of having a max gross takeoff weight (MGTOW) of greter then 255,000 lbs.

JET
 
overlord
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RE: Is A 767 Considered A "heavy"?

Wed May 23, 2001 11:58 am

Have you ever tried to pick one up? It's pretty heavy.
 
Jean Leloup
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RE: Is A 767 Considered A "heavy"?

Wed May 23, 2001 12:06 pm

IL-86!!!!
Does it have to be a pax jet? otherwise, add An-124, 225, Il-76, so on...
Next flight.... who knows.
 
Guest

RE: Is A 767 Considered A "heavy"?

Wed May 23, 2001 12:33 pm

All 4 engine jets, (excluding the Lockheed Jetstar) are heavies. Military included. The 757-200 from American Trans Air are heavies also. They are about the only airline that adds "heavy" to their call-sign.

 
TWA717_200
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RE: Is A 767 Considered A "heavy"?

Wed May 23, 2001 1:28 pm

Any 4 engined jet? Does that include the BAe-146/RJ85(100)?  Smile
 
ILOVEA340
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RE: Is A 767 Considered A "heavy"?

Wed May 23, 2001 1:31 pm

I'm afraid not.
 
Guest

RE: Is A 767 Considered A "heavy"?

Wed May 23, 2001 1:33 pm

uhhh, DUH! Sorry.
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: Is A 767 Considered A "heavy"?

Wed May 23, 2001 1:54 pm

jetpilot,

That's right. 255,000 lbs +. That fiquire was in my head, for some reason 400 popped up. I recall some 757's having the heavy designation now. Thanks.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
TWA717_200
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RE: Is A 767 Considered A

Wed May 23, 2001 2:05 pm

All 757's are heavies. They were classified as such following the loss of (correct me if I'm wrong) a biz jet and a single engine prop. in the 1980's.
 
ILOVEA340
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RE: Is A 767 Considered A

Wed May 23, 2001 2:32 pm

Concorde?
 
trickijedi
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RE: Is A 767 Considered A

Wed May 23, 2001 2:48 pm

Oooh, Concorde? Interesting. Is this a heavy? Anybody know? I would think the FAA would make up a new term just for Concordes and call them "speedy" instead of heavy. I can see the ATC transmission on this one.

ATC: United 1451 heavy, be advised traffic at your 11 o clock position, no wait 12 o clock position, oh wait a minute 1 o clock, nope 2 o clock now, a British Airways Concorde at 4,000 feet, no 6000 feet, wait correct that 10, 000 feet, oops sorry he's now at Flight Level 28. Oh well, you missed him.

United 1451: Uhhhh, we're looking for him.

United 1451: We're still looking.

United 1451: Traffic NOT in sight!!!  Nuts
Its better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air than be in the air wishing you were on the ground. Fly safe!
 
TAA_Airbus
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RE: Is A 767 Considered A

Wed May 23, 2001 3:04 pm

I think you find when aircraft adds heavy to there call sign, it is in reference to there Wake turbulence category, its primarily got nothing to do with weight, but how extreme the wake turbulence is that it produces. However, you will find the heavier the a/c the greater the wake turbulence, however, that is not always true.

Anyway, different countries have different classification, generally speaking, ICAO references heavies as anything >136tonnes, what that is in lbs, I have no idea. Aviation laws in the UK state heavies as anyting heavier than 162 tonnes and the US 115 tonnes. So really, there is no international standard, however as far as Im concerned there should be. Aviation needs to be more in line all around the world.
ICAO, make a stand!


TAA_Airbus

 
TAA_Airbus
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RE: Is A 767 Considered A

Wed May 23, 2001 6:39 pm

Concordes are certainly not heavy aircraft, but due to there huge thrust and there wing size and shape, they would create such a huge amount of lift, so vortices would have to be huge coming from a concorde. However, I have seen a picture of a concorde showing the intricies of airflow, I think I counted over 10 pairs of vortices, which would surely mean you would not want to be anywhere near the rear of one. Not to mention jet blast!@
 
LH526
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A 757 Is Also "heavy"

Wed May 23, 2001 9:19 pm

-
Trittst im Morgenrot daher, seh ich dich im Strahlenmeer ...
 
TAA_Airbus
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RE: A 757 Is Also "heavy"

Wed May 23, 2001 11:15 pm

Not according to ICAO it isnt.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Is A 767 Considered A "heavy"?

Thu May 24, 2001 12:41 am

From monitoring the ATC conversations at SFO's tower frequency (120.500 MHz), the following airplanes are considered heavies:

Airbus A330
Airbus A340
Boeing 747
Boeing 767
Boeing 777
Lockheed L1011
McD DC-10
McD MD-11

The Boeing 757-200 is only considered a heavy above 255,000 lb. gross weight, which is the case of the ATA 752's that regularly visit SFO. Otherwise, SFO tower usually gives a wake turbulence warning to any plane near a 752 taking off and landing.

It's definite that the 757-300 was be classed as a heavy when NW and CO start their 753 opeations to SFO starting in 2003.
 
rw774477
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RE: Is A 767 Considered A

Thu May 24, 2001 2:10 am

Concorde has an MGTOW of 408,000 lbs - sounds heavy to me ...

rw774477
 
philb
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RE: Is A 767 Considered A

Thu May 24, 2001 2:37 am

Weight is not the only deciding factor when the definition "heavy" is given to an aircraft.

Wake turbulence is a major factor as is the ability to climb at given rates.

It is NOT true that all 4 engine jets are heavies, nor is it true that only certain B757s are heavies.

The term "heavy" in ATC calls is now used less as more information is displayed on the controllers' displays.

The following are considered "heavy" by most international authorities:

Concorde
A300
A310
A330
A340
Beluga
AN22
AN70
AN124
AN225
B747
B757
B767
B777
IL86
IL96
L1011
DC8-71
DC8-73
DC10
MD11

Some authorities include B707/DC8/IL62 when operating at maximum weights and require the aircraft to call both the type and "heavy" but again, with modern displays, the info is in front of the controller.

Strangely the TU204 (757 look alike) is classified as "medium".

Sources:

UK CAA
DFS GErmany
Irish ANS



Conco
 
OO-VEG
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RE: Is A 767 Considered A "heavy"?

Thu May 24, 2001 3:09 am

What about the B707/DC-8?
 
lmml 14/32
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RE: Is A 767 Considered A "heavy"?

Thu May 24, 2001 4:40 am

There seems to be some doubt regarding the 757. But, yes. All versions of B757, irrespective of weight are considered heavy. Ask any small jet pilot and he will tell you that he has to wait 2 minutes before taking off behind a rolling 757. I beleive, as someone already mentioned, the 757 was designated as such following an accident.
 
Max Q
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RE: Is A 767 Considered A "heavy"?

Thu May 24, 2001 12:30 pm

The official designation of a 'heavy' aircraft is any aircraft with a gross wt CAPABILITY of over 300,000 lbs
for take-off, this most assuredly includes Concorde with a max gross take-off wt of 408000 lbs, this is very similar
to a B767-300.

As a matter of interest when Concorde used to check in on a new air traffic control frequency it was, as for example 'Speedbird Concorde 1 Heavy' as all heavy aircraft in the US have to end their Transmissions with.

The one exception to this are the Heavy gross wt B757's
like Continental's that have a max Take-off wt of 255500
lbs, these are a rarity,most 757's gross wt is 230000 lbs or below.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
Red Panda
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RE: How About 767-200 Then?

Thu May 24, 2001 2:59 pm

Is 767-200 considered as heavy too? it's not a too big plane after all. How about A321 then?

r panda
 
PHLyBoy
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RE: Is A 767 Considered A

Thu May 24, 2001 3:04 pm

I don't know if 757's are classified as heavies. I guarantee you that Delta doesn't add heavy to its call sign in 57's.
 
philb
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RE: Is A 767 Considered A

Thu May 24, 2001 3:33 pm

Amazing.

After taking the trouble to research and list the internationally accepted list of "heavy" aircraft, explaining how the call is being used less, listing variations and quoting the industry sources, there are still people who query the 767(which has ALWAYS UNDOUBTEDLY been classed as "heavy"!), 757 and 707/DC8 - all of which were listed and explained.

The term is nothing to do with the airline part of flight planning but is an ATC definition to assist in arranging wake separations and climb rates

Once again, it is not just a simple factor of weight. The ability to climb (particularly with reference to the 707 and DC8-30 through -63) and the generation of wake turbulence (of particular importance re ALL B757s) are EQUALLY important.

I was interested to read Max O's comments re the "heavy" call in the US. Listening almost daily to VHF in Ireland/UK/Europe and on HF Atlantic frequencies and being a regular visitor to both en route centres and approach control units, I can state from experience that the "heavy" call is now less frequent for reasons stated in the previous post.

I have never heard Concorde call "heavy", even when talking to ARINC's New York Air Radio op for transmission to New York ATC, though I have heard the odd Air France Concorde call as such on descent into JFK on VHF. Normally the word "Concorde" says it all!!
 
Max Q
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RE: Is A 767 Considered A

Fri May 25, 2001 10:23 am

767-200 gross take-off weight, is 300,000 lbs+, it is therefore a heavy.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
penguinflies
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Heavies

Fri May 25, 2001 4:32 pm

Some people touched on this--

Heavy aircraft came from the categories of wake turbulence (as defined by the FAA and ATC's "bible")

The categories are defined by max. takeoff weight (in lbs)

A
Small - any aircraft weighing >41000
Small plus- any aircraft weighing 12500-41000
Large- 41000-255000
Heavy->255000 and all B757s

The 757 is designated as a heavy because of the amount of wake turbulence its wing creates (even though it does not fit into the weight category).

Wake Turbulence starts when the wings create lift (usually from the time the main gear lifts to the time the main gear touches down).

Someone mentioned seperation...A heavy preceding any aircraft for take off is 3 minutes, and is non-waiveable.
The only time wake turbulence is waiveable is when a small aircraft is behind a large aircraft and at pilot request only (atc cannot offer this option).
Entrail seperation for a heavy is 6 miles.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Is A 767 Considered A

Fri May 25, 2001 11:20 pm

Penguinflies,

Wrongo.  Smile

The 757 is NOT designated as a heavy unless the gross weight of the plane is over 255,000 lbs. The 757-200's flown by AA, CO, DL, HP, NW, TW, and UA aren't anywhere near the 255,000 lb. weight, hence no heavy designation. However, the tower controllers at SFO, OAK and SJC do warn pilots to watch for wake turbulence from any 752 operating nearby.

The only 752's designated as heavy are the ATA 757-200's that operate with a all-economy class configuration and are rated at over 255,000 lbs. gross weight.
 
Critter_592
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RE: Is A 767 Considered A "heavy"?

Sat May 26, 2001 1:05 am

After speaking with a controller at JFK Tower many times in the past regarding this issue, the 757 is not classified as a heavy, except for the one airline and that is American Trans Air. All 767's are heavy aircraft. A heavy is any aircraft capable of taking off weighing more than 255,000 lbs. Meaning a 767 weighing 220,000 lbs would still be considered a heavy. All Concordes are heavy aircraft too. If you've listened to JFK ATC in the past when Concorde was flying you would hear "Speedbird Concorde 3 Heavy". And any aircraft taking off after a heavy is either 5 miles or 2 minutes, I forgot which one. Wake turbulence advisories are mandatory when following a heavy jet or B757, or an aircraft following another of a greater weight class.
 
Guest

RE: Is A 767 Considered A "heavy"?

Sat May 26, 2001 1:38 am

The rule of thumb I have noticed basically for modern transports is whatever needs a double bogey (DC10) or triple bogey (777) main landing gear can be considered a heavy.
 
Guest

RE: Is A 767 Considered A "heavy"?

Sat May 26, 2001 1:39 am

As far as the US goes i don't know, but here in Canada a heavy is an aircraft of or over 300,000 lbs and it has nothing to do with the wake turbulence category of the aircraft. If you were to take off behind a 757 which is less than 300,00 lbs you would be issued a wake turbulence advisory. This was taken directly from A.I.P Canada.

It seems like an never-ending disscusion regarding to the US, so does anyone have a copy of the FAR AIM? it will probably be in it.
 
philb
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RE: Is A 767 Considered A "heavy"?

Sat May 26, 2001 2:26 am

I can't understand why there is such confusion about the B757.

To all intents and purposes it is classified as a "heavy" aircraft because of wake turbulence.

Most European authorities had classified it as a "heavy" within weeks of the type entering BA service, when the CAA in the UK issued a wake turbulence problem advisory.

The FAA waited until a jet upset when a Westwind was knocked out of the sky, killing all on board, following a B757 on approach.

It doesn't matter what the all up weight is, whose colours the aircraft wears or what the pilot calls on the radio, if a 757 is on your scope you separate it like any other "heavy".
 
Aer Lingus
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RE: Is A 767 Considered A "heavy"?

Sat May 26, 2001 3:05 am

I've heard an ATA 757-200 once been called a "Heavy"
So I presume a 757 CAN be one
 
Guest

RE: Is A 767 Considered A "heavy"?

Sat May 26, 2001 3:07 am

PhilB: 757's are not classified as heavy but they do however use the same separation as a heavy on finaldue to their nasty wake turbulence carateristics.

Here's a list that will let's you know how aircrafts are classified with regard to their WEIGHT and nothing else.

"light aircraft" - An aircraft certificated for a maximum take-off weight of 5700 kilograms (12,500 pounds) or less.

"medium aircraft" - An aircraft certificated for a maximum take-off weight of more than 5700 kilograms
(12,500 pounds), but less than 136000 kilograms (300,000 pounds).

"heavy aircraft" - An aircraft certificated for a maximum take-off weight of 136000 kilograms (300,000 pounds) or more.

You can find this exact classification in the Canadian Air Regulations at http://www.tc.gc.ca/aviation/regserv/carac/cars/cars/821e.htm

Nicolas
 
TWA717_200
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757 Controversy

Sat May 26, 2001 3:49 am

From "Pilot Magazine's A to Z of Aviation Jargon" -

Heavy - suffix used in RT callsigns to indicate that the aircraft is a large transport, alerting controllers and following aircraft to the possibility of wake turbulence (which see).

FAA Info:

http://www.faa.gov/avr/afs/HBAT/hbat9417.txt

Don't know if that helps or not. My thought is that all 757's are designated heavies.
 
JETPILOT
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RE: Is A 767 Considered A "heavy"?

Sat May 26, 2001 3:52 am

Ray Chuang and anybody else who cares to listen. The 757 is not clasified as a heavy aircraft. It's MGTOW is below 255,000 pounds for all models (not sure about the -300 series).

HOWEVER ATC gives aircraft arriving and departing a 757 heaqy seperation requirments.

The term heavy is not used in radio transmissions concerning floght ops of 757 aircraft.

In the US an aircraft having a MGTOW of 255,000 pounds or higher are heavies. That doesn't mean that if the aircraft is operated at a lower weight than 255,000 pounds it is not considered a heavy. Again the classification only deals with MGTOW.

JET

 
philb
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RE: Is A 767 Considered A "heavy"?

Sat May 26, 2001 4:00 am

Nicolaki,

Those are Canadian Air Regulations - they apply in Canada with regard to the CERTIFICATION of the aircraft.

Nav Canada class the 757 as a heavy for ATC handling, which is what this thread is all about.

All other ATC authorities also class the 757 as a heavy for reasons I've explained ad nauseam, but I suppose my regular visits to towers, en-route centres, ATC training centres, my writing of ATC conference programmes, detailed work with ATC authorities, individuals in both ATC operations and senior mangement and my library of ATC manuals, all of which classthe 757 as a heavy, pale into insignificance compared to some of the uninformed opinions here.
 
Critter_592
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RE: Is A 767 Considered A "heavy"?

Sat May 26, 2001 7:20 am

PhilB,

Why are you so sure that a B757 is considered a heavy? How often do you hear "heavy" used with the callsign of a flight being operated with a 757? And "heavy" is not classified by the turbulence the aircraft produces it is how its capable of weighing that matters.
 
philb
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RE: Is A 767 Considered A "heavy"?

Sat May 26, 2001 7:27 am

Critter,

Do they teach you to read and comprehend English at your school?

If you had read read and understood my posts in this thread you wouldn't have asked such a stupid question and made the crass statement in the last sentence of your post.
 
Critter_592
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RE: Is A 767 Considered A

Sat May 26, 2001 9:05 am

Yes they teach me to comprehend Grammar at school, if you really need to know. Is their any good reason for you to come out with a post like you just did? Older people are always complaining about young adults being on the boards making stupid immature comments, and they get it from persons like you.

"To all intents and purposes it is classified as a "heavy" aircraft because of wake turbulence." ......thats why I made the last statement about why aircraft are classified as heavies.

I think you need to comprehend your post before sending them. You make it seem like you are stuttering.
 
seven_fifty7
Posts: 900
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 2:54 am

RE: Is A 767 Considered A "heavy"?

Sat May 26, 2001 9:14 am

I don't know why some people are convinced that 757s CANNOT be classified as "heavy."

I, for sure, have been on numerous United 757s whereby the callsigns were "United 676 heavy...". On UA I listen to Channel 9 all the time and hear my beloved 757 flights addressed as such.

Indeed, some 757s are "heavy".
 
coboeing777
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RE: Is A 767 Considered A "heavy"?

Sat May 26, 2001 9:17 am

sometimes 757s are considered and sometimes not. From what I've been told it depends on how many passengers and how much baggage/cargo and fuel it is carrying. Somtimes it bumps it up into the "heavy" category.
 
philb
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RE: Is A 767 Considered A "heavy"?

Sat May 26, 2001 9:22 am

If you want to argue semantics with me ...fine, you'll lose.

You asked two questions which had been very fully answered earlier in the thread, therefore you asking them again can only lead me to believe you either haven't read the thread or don't understand it.

As to your final statement:
"And "heavy" is not classified by the turbulence the aircraft produces it is how its capable of weighing that matters.", this isn't a sentence. You cannot start a sentence in English with a conjunction and, anyway, the words do not make sense.

I think you are trying to say you cannot classify a heavy by the turbulence produced.

If so, as previously stated, you could not be more wrong. It is PRECISELY because of the wake turbulence the 757 creates and because of a fatal jet upset caused by a 757, plus a number of other incidents where 737 size aircraft have had uncomfortable rides behind a 757, that the aircraft is treated as a "heavy".
 
USAFHummer
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RE: Is A 767 Considered A

Sat May 26, 2001 9:32 am

You're very arrogant, PhilB.

Anyway onto the topic...

Straight from Boeing's website, the MTOW is 255,000 lbs. The URL for those skeptics is as follows:
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/757-200/product.html

That puts it right on the line...which I would say makes it a "heavy"...I am flying on a US 752 in about a month I will ask the pilots this question at that time...

Greg
Chief A.net college football stadium self-pic guru
 
TWA717_200
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757, Once Again...

Sat May 26, 2001 9:36 am

I'm going to make a statement that I GUARANTEE is a FACT:

The reason that the definition of a heavy aircraft is 255,000 lbs. or more is because that is PRECISELY the MGTOW of a 757.

The classification of a heavy was reduced to that number because of the unusually strong wake turbulence generated by the 757.

REGARDLESS of an individual 757's take-off weight on any given flight, it will always be treated by ATC as a heavy for separation.

For your reference:

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/757-200/product.html

and

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/757family/facts.html

How anyone can argue with this and arguments put forth by others is beyond me.
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: Is A 767 Considered A "heavy"?

Sat May 26, 2001 9:38 am

This has turned out to be an interesting debate. I think in a sence that everyone, to a certain extent, is correct here. The 752's max weight is 255,000 lbs, making it a heavy. ( the 753's is 272,5000 lbs. ) However, I recall several years back that studies revealled that the 757's wake turbulence was rather extreme for an aircraft that size. In fact, I believe that the wake turbulence pound for pound was even more extreme than that of the 747! Anyway, because the turbulence is so extreme on the 757, I think the "authorities" gave the aircraft an asteric if you will. Not a true heavy, but when dealing with wake turbulence, they treat the 757 as such.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.

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