AI744LR
Topic Author
Posts: 103
Joined: Fri May 11, 2001 6:14 am

Last Year's SQ6 Accident

Fri May 25, 2001 6:27 am

Is it true that the findings of the SQ6 accident in TPE have revealed that the TPE airport was at fault?? I've heard something recently that might have indicated that.

Can someone please calrify this?

Thanks.
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
Posts: 11619
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2000 4:06 am

RE: Last Year's SQ6 Accident

Fri May 25, 2001 6:53 am

Well this is definately going to be a popular topic?

The threads below probably will prove me right.

AI744LR: I'll let others tell you their opinions first.
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
Posts: 11619
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2000 4:06 am

RE: Last Year's SQ6 Accident

Fri May 25, 2001 6:53 am

Well this is definately going to be a popular topic!

The threads below probably will prove me right.

AI744LR: I'll let others tell you their opinions first.
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
philb
Posts: 2645
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 5:53 am

RE: Last Year's SQ6 Accident

Fri May 25, 2001 7:02 am

As the final report is still awaited anything you may have heard is either rumour, speculation or snippets from a very complex investigation.

There are likely to be a number of causes including airport operating procedures, airline procedures and CRM/human resource factors.

Until the full report comes out speculation is just a useless waste of time and bandwidth.
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
Posts: 11619
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2000 4:06 am

RE: Last Year's SQ6 Accident

Fri May 25, 2001 7:07 am

As I found out! Many pages of the reports didn't come out as they were corrupted!

At least the Australian Aviation Safety Board or whatever they're called can produce nice reports.
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
Guest

RE: Last Year's SQ6 Accident

Fri May 25, 2001 7:15 am

According to 2001/5/16 edition of Taiwan's Udnnews.com (In Chinese), Tao-Yuan County's prosecutor has eliminated the error from Taipei's ATC.

And the reason why the lights of Runway 05R was bright, the prosecutor thinks it was the desing error 20 years ago.

The final report of SQ006 crash will be released in 2002.

Also, during Feburary, the prosecutor was thinking of sueing the pilots of SQ006 for the crash. However, during April, the pilots were complaning that some of the reports didn't reflects their answer which the prosecutors asked them previously.
 
Guest

RE: Last Year's SQ6 Accident

Fri May 25, 2001 7:21 am

Also, since the New Jersey fence and the construction machine (I forgot what is that thing called) are located in 1200m of the runway 05R. The prosecutors think that 727/737 can avoid the crash, cause 727/737 can take-off with using less than 1200m of runway.

A 747 needs 1300m+ runway in order to take off. So the prosecutors think it's not the fence and machines problem. They also stated that "SIA 747-400 enters the wrong runway, and that's the cause of the crash"

I think Taiwan's prosecutor is blaming SIA for the crash. (Currently)
-----------------------------------------------------
A radio station from Singapore recently reported that SIA is going to ask Taiwan's Taipei International Airport should compensating the casualties' family as well. However, SIA has denied the report.
-----------------------------------------------------
Few weeks ago, SIA was going to have similar aircrash drill, however, the weather was sunny, so SIA and Taipei airport gived up. They are going to wait another typhoon hits Taiwan and do the drill.
 
hkgspotter1
Posts: 5750
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 12:43 pm

RE: Last Year's SQ6 Accident

Fri May 25, 2001 10:15 am

I HAVE VERY STRONG VIEWS ON THIS ACCIDENT BUT I WILL KEEP COOL.

This accident was caused by the pilot. No other person or equipment was to blame. He used the WRONG runway to takeoff. Its that bloody simple.

Yes the report will say that TPE should get ground radar to stop this from ever happening again but the fact still stands that the pilot was in control and he should be to blame for the whole mess.

 
philb
Posts: 2645
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 5:53 am

RE: Last Year's SQ6 Accident

Fri May 25, 2001 3:58 pm

Hkgspotter1,

You may have strong views (and to a point I agree with your view on this) but it is a very rare accident that has a single cause.

If the accident report concluded the accident was the pilot's fault, a whole raft of other issues would go uncorrected.

I'm not trying to guess the report's findings but they should be looking at:

1 Cockpit:

Reading of and aide memoirs re Notams.

Cross checking of position in the visibility available.

Decision to "go" given the conditions.

Agreement between the crew to go from hold position and means used to verify the position/Use of cockpit resource management procedures.


2 Airport

Lighting of closed runway

Lack of large, visible signage at start of closed runway

Lack of ground radar or temporary, localised control of access to closed runway


3 Airline.

CRM training/relationship between crew.

Briefing of crew prior to take off

Rules for operating in poor weather

It looks likely that any unbiased report will highlight all of these and other factors which "conspired" togethr to cause this accident
 
lgb
Posts: 61
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2005 4:17 pm

RE: Last Year's SQ6 Accident

Fri May 25, 2001 7:22 pm

What I found appauling in the initial reports was that it was said that pilots in at least a couple of other planes reported they had seen SQ 6 taxi onto the wrong runway.

1) Are those reports correct? Did other pilots see them take a wrong turn?

2) If so, did those other pilots try to alert SQ 6 or ATC?

3) If no, why not??? Is it standard procedure for pilots to just sit back and watch when they see another plane possibly heading for disaster?

Lars

 
Guest

RE: Last Year's SQ6 Accident

Fri May 25, 2001 7:45 pm

LGB,

I doubt other a/c would have actually seen the SQ a/c line-up on the wrong r/w (or any r/w).

Visibility was very poor at the time, and the most other aircrew might have been able to make of the SQ a/c, were some nav & strobe lights flashing in the distance.

Given the crappy visibility and the presence of parallel r/w's, I would have thought it would have been doubly difficult to see any a/c movements in the distance, let alone their exact postions with regards to the runways.

Apart from this, they may have been on different frequencies, they may have been utterly preoccupied with taxying & pre-TO checks, etc. etc.

When I taxy my a/c along to the r/w I pay very little attention to what's rolling, and keep my eyes on what's directly ahead or to the side of me-that's what the RAF have taught me anyway.

Just my opinion.

Rgds,
CP
 
Singapore 777
Posts: 980
Joined: Sat May 29, 1999 3:00 pm

RE: Last Year's SQ6 Accident

Fri May 25, 2001 8:15 pm

If you read the CVR transcript, it says the pilot was taxying at something like 5 knots, which is pretty slow. I wouldn't think he was rushing for time and therefore entered into the wrong runway. And the report itself even said that it was a design error on the part of the lighting system...so how could the entire blame go onto the pilots?

I think they should share the blame something like 70 to the pilots and 30 to other factors.
 
Greg
Posts: 5539
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 1:11 am

RE: Last Year's SQ6 Accident

Fri May 25, 2001 11:49 pm

Let's see...you take off on the WRONG RUNWAY in a TYPHOON
And you think it's the airports fault?

SQ will not get damages from the airport. This accident is the result of only one factor: Poor Judgement from the Captain.
 
AI744LR
Topic Author
Posts: 103
Joined: Fri May 11, 2001 6:14 am

RE: Last Year's SQ6 Accident

Sat May 26, 2001 12:05 am

I don't know, but an article (I do not wish to disclose the source) mentioned that the TPE ATC may be at fault becuase the runways were "lit" incorrectly. These are not my views, but this is what I read. I think we did here about part of a runway being lit for taxiing purposes.

I don't know. I guess it's a complex investigation indeed. For those who think that the pilot is at fault: I'm sure that after commanding so many flights, a captain will be very sensitive about making sure whether he is on L or R. This is not to say that I am putting the blame on TPE ATC.

Are the pilots still in TPE?

 Confused
 
VirginA340
Posts: 2556
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:35 pm

RE: Last Year's SQ6 Accident

Sat May 26, 2001 12:13 am

It is the fault of the flight crew for bad judgment. As a result they took off on a closed runway and hit a crane. The flight crew should be charged with manslaughter. The DELTA 727 flightcrew that crashed on take off from DFW shoud've also been charged. The jackasses forgot to set their flaps becasue they were too busy chatting with an FA. The coversation was the CO DC-9 crash in Denver. They were talking to an FA on how they should leave some jucy gossip so that the media can listen to as well as their families if the plane crashes. In that accident 13 pax died but the three pilots and that FA survived. Plain and simple you are incharged and responsible for those lives on board and are responsible when you mess up like that in that way then you should suffer the consequences. By the way. What ever happened to the 3 DL 727 pilots? I imagine that DL fired them because of the bad PR it would create if the still had their jobs.
"FUIMUS"
 
Guest

RE: Last Year's SQ6 Accident

Sat May 26, 2001 12:14 am

Apologies if this link has already been provided:

http://www.asc.gov.tw/uw/uw_disp.exe/easc/home/asc/asc_disp.appl?asc_oid=@720|30|1

All files in .pdf format.

Rgds,
CP
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
Posts: 11619
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2000 4:06 am

RE: Last Year's SQ6 Accident

Sat May 26, 2001 12:50 am

Ah my turn

Greg: How did I know you would post something in this???

Of course, everyone is entitled to their own view. However, may I point out some things in this argument.

1) There is more than one side to the argument. It's not only the flight crew

2) The lights on the taxiway were "inadequate" and were "below international standards" (Dr. Yong Kay (or is it Kay Yong???)). Therefore, the captain MAY (not did or didn't. MAY) have missed the first exit to runway 5L. Instead, he MAY have thought that the first exit he saw was 5R's instead of 5Ls

3) Weather: This is subjec is void

3) Mechanical faliure: This subject is void

4) Crew Factors: The biggest mistake the crew made (or more the Captain), was not using PVD. However this is a complicated fact. CKS Airport, whether you like it or not is a category 2 (not 3; 2) tehrefore PVD is not needed for takeoff in any sort of weather. HOWEVER, the co-pilot did decide to use it and it didn't work. Why?! Because 5R don't have PVD. However, the plane was not at a 45 degree angle and PVD wouldn't have worked anyway. The Captain couldn't have cared less as it wasn't a requirement, and therfore said "We can see the runway OK". It took off

5) ATC: They didn't look out the window for the SIA6 flight, and therefore didn't know where it was. It could have been in a ditch. They should have looked at where the planes were going. They do that at LHR!

5) CAL pilots: No blame on them. However, they could have (not SHOULD have; could have), called ATC and SIA6 to tell them that the plane was on the wrong runway.

6) Singapore Airlines: The report voids SIA at fault ( in the sense that you know about.)

7) International Regulations: I think that all airports must have a ground radar. They MUST. This must never happen again.
--
Singapore Airlines is resting the crew. I think they're doing ground duties while they "recover". They are on full pay.

SIA is being sued by 80+ victims and crew. I think hear hear up to a point. I think USD$2 000 000 per victim deceased and USD $750 000 per victim injured is sufficient financially.

That is my views so far. I hope I've made them clear enough and have used language that you can all understand. If you've just scanned this, then read it thoroughly. You'll miss some points that you'll probably accuse me of.

Well then! Look hear. My flaming cometh!
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
philb
Posts: 2645
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 5:53 am

RE: Last Year's SQ6 Accident

Sat May 26, 2001 2:35 am

VirginA340,

After your marvelous post about JAL crashing a 747SP, we now have you as jury, judge and executioner for the SQ crew.

They may well end up charged with manslaughter but, if they are, both SQ and the airport authority should be equally charged with corporate manslaughter because there will be actions and ommissions by both which would contribute.

As I said before, there are many, complex, factors which influence actions and cause accidents. Wait for the report.

 
SInGAPORE_AIR
Posts: 11619
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2000 4:06 am

RE: Last Year's SQ6 Accident

Sat May 26, 2001 3:01 am

Lovely PhilB. Please elaborate on the factors. I think you could contribute a lot to the thread.
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
philb
Posts: 2645
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 5:53 am

RE: Last Year's SQ6 Accident

Sat May 26, 2001 5:14 am

Singapore Air,

I've said all that can be said in my previous posts.

Like everyone else here, I can only apply what is known of the factors that will be looked at and read the reports that are in the media (both trade and general) and, with experience of following many investigations over the last 40+ years or so, try to form an opinion by which I can look for fairness and balance in the final report.

But until that report is published, any "reasons" for the accident, speculation on who to blame or condemnation is vacuous.
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
Posts: 11619
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2000 4:06 am

RE: Last Year's SQ6 Accident

Sat May 26, 2001 6:03 am

PhilB: Yes.
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
Red Panda
Posts: 1433
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2000 12:58 pm

RE: Last Year's SQ6 Accident

Sat May 26, 2001 6:06 am

About the lighting of the rwys: Lights on rwy 05R cannot be turned off separately since there is only one switch to turn on/off both rwy 05R and 05R. So, lights on rwy 05R had to be on since 05L was the active rwy where lights were needed. Moreover, rwy 05R might have been used for taxi-ing, so the light must be on for this purprose.

I believe that this is the captain's fault because of his poor judgement. Even though there was no ground radar at TPE, the pilot in control still had to make sure they were at the right place.

Let's put it this way, if the lighting is to blame, then why didn't other a/cs turn onto the wrong rwy and crashed? It was just SQ6 had made the wrong judgement. Too bad, the pilots should be responsible.


my opinion
r panda
 
lgb
Posts: 61
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2005 4:17 pm

RE: Last Year's SQ6 Accident

Sat May 26, 2001 6:17 am

Lights on rwy 05R cannot be turned off separately since there is only one switch to turn on/off both rwy 05R and 05R.

Is this a fact or a conjecture?
 
Red Panda
Posts: 1433
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2000 12:58 pm

RE: Last Year's SQ6 Accident

Sat May 26, 2001 6:22 am

this is what I heard from the press.

r panda
 
philb
Posts: 2645
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 5:53 am

RE: Last Year's SQ6 Accident

Sat May 26, 2001 6:29 am

Red Panda,

Then I'd take it with about a ton of salt. May be correct of course, but this highlights perfectly what I've been saying about speculation.
 
lgb
Posts: 61
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2005 4:17 pm

RE: Last Year's SQ6 Accident

Sat May 26, 2001 6:52 am

I agree completely with what PhilB said about blame and condemnation having no place in this forum. However, speculation I think is fine within reason. After all, this is a discussion forum, and we all learn by exchanging thoughts and opinions. People are speculating all the time about what aircraft an airline will buy next, what routes they will open up, etc. If everyone was just posting facts this forum would be rather dull.

Taking Red Panda's post as an example (this is absolutely nothing personal, I'm just using it trying to illustrate my point) I think his first paragraph is perfectly fine for this forum. It's an interesting piece of the puzzle that we can debate (or faulty journalism that we can debate  Smile). About the last two I agree with PhilB that it's premature to have a firm opinion about who to blame.

Lars
 
AI744LR
Topic Author
Posts: 103
Joined: Fri May 11, 2001 6:14 am

RE: Last Year's SQ6 Accident

Sat May 26, 2001 7:20 am

Nobody can put a blame on anyone, at least before the investigation results are out. However, what Red Panda mentioned was kind of interesting. Why could other pilots take off from the correct runway? Once again, no blames, just a question.

I also read somewhere that planes had taken off from the correct runway just minutes before the SQ 744. Sounds like a point, but then again, situation varies from minute to minute. May be the rain was not as stong when the other planes took off. Possible.
 
lgb
Posts: 61
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2005 4:17 pm

RE: Last Year's SQ6 Accident

Sat May 26, 2001 7:37 am

Why could other pilots take off from the correct runway?

Why wouldn't they be able to? I don't think anyone has suggested that the lighting actively directed the plane onto the wrong runway. Rather, what has been suggested is that the lighting may have been confusing and that a different lighting may have made the pilots realize their mistake before it was too late.

Lars
 
VirginA340
Posts: 2556
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:35 pm

RE: Last Year's SQ6 Accident

Sat May 26, 2001 7:40 am

PhilB;My conolensese to your people on board the JAL 747 crash. That Jal post was an error on my part; any one can make a mistake so just stop trying to be an ass toward me. There were reports that it was a 747SP but I guess they're wrong. It's not like I said it was a 727 so get over it. This is my opinion on what the pilot should get. If the airport authorites are to blame as well; then so be it. I know how it's like to loose family due to airline neglegence and incompetance to protect those onboard from harm. I lost my best friend on PA 103 along with his family. Don't give me an attitude on the forum. after being hell and back with PAN AM and it's management after PA 103 and my government; i think I've earned the right to pass judgment on the jackassess that ruined so many lives.
"FUIMUS"
 
hkgspotter1
Posts: 5750
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 12:43 pm

RE: Last Year's SQ6 Accident

Sat May 26, 2001 12:27 pm

Singapore_Air,

1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, would not be enough if it was one of my loved ones that got killed by Singapore Airlines or any other airline.

Money can't pay for live. It can make it better but not replace.
 
VirginA340
Posts: 2556
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:35 pm

RE: Last Year's SQ6 Accident

Sat May 26, 2001 12:53 pm

Singapore Air; The money that SIA was giving out is not enough to cover for funeral costs, hospital bills, medication, rehabilitiaon, cost of stay at a burn unit. For instance in ST Barnabus a burn unit by my are it's $75,000 for only 4 days!!!! Not inclding Nusre doctor and rehab costs. This is just the stay and food as well as costs for equipemt keeping you alive.

PAN AM(the corporaion of murderurs) wanted to pay only $75,000 not including the children or the 35 Syracuse U students murdered even though PA was cutting corners on security at FRA Thyne they offered 100,000 then after we took then to court PA was ordered in a NYC court to pay the families including the children $550,000 each and they were also found to be guilty of gross neglegence in the security and safety to those on PA 103. Bear in mind that PA had waivers to skip hand searches on unaccompanied luggage orginating from Europe.

Martin Shugre denied that such waivers existed when my parents confroted him at the PA buildning. He swore up and down. But then he turned around when being further confronted by the issue and said it was on a verbal agreement which is bull because such waivers must be applied for in writing. The waivers were issued by ex FAA cheif Dan Salazar. Security cheif Dan Sonenson said in a Telex " If a pax luggage is onboard and he or she doensn't show then we go!!!!" Bear in mind that PA tricked the public that there were guard dogs at JFK when infact they were show dogs purchased from a local Kennel.

A year before the blast they ran an ad in th NY media stating that they tacked an extra $5 Dollar fee on 1 way 1st class tickets. It was a sham the money was going to bankruptcy coffers and not 1 penny went to security. PA was also one of the parties that knew about the Helsinki warning since December the 5th but took no precautions at all. The money to the families helped but didn't matter as much. But the icing on the cake was seeing PA being hewld responsible in the courts. I wish that Shugrue and CEO Thomas Plaskett, Secuirty Cheif Dan Sonenson, ex FAA Cheif Dad Salazar and Head of FRA security Ulrich Weber got manslaughter but for the whole airline to be held accountable and out of business due to their shaddy reputaion is good enough for me.
"FUIMUS"
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
Posts: 11619
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2000 4:06 am

RE: Last Year's SQ6 Accident

Sat May 26, 2001 4:17 pm

HKGSpotter1 and VirginA340: Didn't I make myself clear in saying SIA didn't pay enough???????

HKGSpooter1: Compensation must be given within reason. Of course USD 2 million is not enough, but as you say, it helps.

Look, AF has paid each person USD $1.1 million. Compare that to 400 000 and it doesn't take an Einstein to work it out.
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
Singapore 777
Posts: 980
Joined: Sat May 29, 1999 3:00 pm

RE: Last Year's SQ6 Accident

Sat May 26, 2001 6:03 pm

Other planes may have taken off before SQ6 yes, but on the same runway?

Runway 05L is commonly used for cargo aircraft. Commercial passenger aircraft usually use Runway 06. In fact, had the captain elected to use Runway 06, this accident would not have happened. He chose to use Runway 05L because of the simple reason that it gave him more length to perform the takeoff. Let's not talk about landing traffic. They are up there and they can differentiate a left runway from the right if both are lit but on ground?

There is a certain amount of negligence involved but for people who pin the blame entirely on the flight crew, I absolutely have nothing to say about them.
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
Posts: 11619
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2000 4:06 am

RE: Last Year's SQ6 Accident

Sat May 26, 2001 7:01 pm

Hear Hear Singapore 777!

A word of advice to people who want to download the crash Factual Report. Don't hold your breath

1) They take a long time to download
2) Approximately 30 - 40% of the pages in those files are corrupted
3) This also applied to people with Chinese fonts.
4) I got angry.

Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
philb
Posts: 2645
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 5:53 am

RE: Last Year's SQ6 Accident

Sat May 26, 2001 7:16 pm

VirginA340, Its been 16 years since the JAL crash. If there were reports that it was a 747SP you have had plenty of time to establish the correct information before posting inaccurate information as fact.

As to PanAm103, your beef with PanAm, which I can understand on a personal level, cannot be transferred to another accident caused by totally different circumstances.


The problem of baggage security provided me with a good income in the late 1980s and 1990s as I provided the world's experts with many a forum to debate the issues. Believe me, it wasn't just slack work by Pan Am that allowed the bomb on the aircraft.
 
Guest

RE: Last Year's SQ6 Accident

Sat May 26, 2001 11:32 pm

Singapore_Air

Sorry, I only actually had a quick scan through the Human Factors section, which wasn't "corrupted".

To be honest, as Phil says, you're better off waiting for the final report before coming to conclusions.

Rgds,
CP
 
TTT
Posts: 94
Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2006 3:16 pm

RE: Last Year's SQ6 Accident

Sun May 27, 2001 12:40 am

Whenever the topic comes up for discussion, only two words describe it. I've spoken with many people and they also say these two words.. farking taiwanese.
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
Posts: 11619
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2000 4:06 am

RE: Last Year's SQ6 Accident

Sun May 27, 2001 1:07 am

Capt.Pciard: You shouldn't be apologising. It's those fools at the ASC who can't get a PDF file online!
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.

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