Guest

MESA... Backstabbing Airline!

Fri May 25, 2001 11:24 am

Tell me what you all think of this garbage...

Mesa has announced that they will begin flying under their own colors from Cincinnati to take advantage of the Comair strike. In my opoinion this is an example of what kind of company Mesa is... the bottom feeder of the industry, existing on the scraps left by better airlines who have come before. They pay their people garbage and deliver an inferior product that no company would ever be proud of.

Now Mesa has sunk to new lows... moving into Cincinnati to do the work temporarily left by Comair. They are bottom feeding once again, tearing at the flesh of a bruised and bleeding Comair, a company which is still alive nontheless. Instead of respecting the fragile process of labor negotiations Mesa has instead poured salt into the wound and made matters far worse. They are forcing their pilots to do STRUCK WORK... in essence making them violate one of the most basic tennants of labor relations.

It is important for me to say that I do not blame Mesa's pilots per say. They are ALPA and I would expect that they will do all they can to prevent this unjust situation from progressing further. Hopefully they will do all they can to support the Comair pilots in their struggle and continue to afford them jumpseat privleges whenever possible. Mesa's pilots can not be faulted for their management's lack of morals and respect for a time honored process.

I guess you can tell this really tweaks my screws! I'll get off my soapbox now!

ATRpilot

 
jmc1975
Posts: 2897
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2000 10:57 am

RE: MESA... Backstabbing Airline!

Fri May 25, 2001 11:33 am

I don't see anything immoral about Mesa flying into Cinicinnati. They saw a need and they are the first to fill it. That is the key to every successful business. Mesa saw a need for air service from the Greater Cincinnati Metro area, which is home to over 2 million people, to various markets left without direct service. It was Comair that stands to lose out and they lost out long before Mesa announced service from Cincinnati.
.......
 
travelin man
Posts: 3198
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 10:04 am

RE: MESA... Backstabbing Airline!

Fri May 25, 2001 11:38 am

Uhh... it's called capitalism. We do live in America, you know. Why would any "competitor" not enter a market when it sees an opportunity. That is the beauty of the free market.

And apparently you don't know the meaning of the word "struck work". As I understand it, that only means that pilots of Delta Airlines cannot start flying Comair routes during their labor situation. Competitors can do anything they want!

You call them "bottom feeders". Most people would call it "Capitalism".
 
ILOVEA340
Posts: 2064
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 1999 9:49 am

RE: MESA... Backstabbing Airline!

Fri May 25, 2001 11:40 am

Don't like to go to china. No really they have every right to do this.
 
flashmeister
Posts: 2671
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2000 4:32 am

RE: MESA... Backstabbing Airline!

Fri May 25, 2001 11:42 am

ATRPilot, while I can see where you can take this personally, this isn't anything but a business move -- and a smart one at that.

Look, just because Comair is on strike, that doesn't negate the need for these flights. They obviously served a purpose before. Mesa is going to satisfy a market that can't be satisfied before.

I know that unions have a rich heritage of helping one another, and that they've enjoyed a lot of public sympathy in the past. Good or bad, that sympathy is largely gone.

I'm not belittling the large amount that Comair pilots have on the line here -- they do deserve more -- but to expect a community (or an industry) to grind to a halt over a labor dispute is irrational in this day and age. The new attitude is "I'm sorry for your troubles, but the show must go on."

Indeed, my personal patience with unions and their tactics are running very thin. If labor negotiations were the "fragile" process that you indicate, why do we have the Flight Attendants unions out there with their CHAOS strategy? How does that respect the "time honored process"?

No one is forcing the Comair pilots to be out on strike, and no one is forcing the Mesa pilots to fly these routes. Obviously, there are people who enjoy working for Mesa, despite your indication that they are awful people. Anyone -- ANYONE -- could jump ship there, but you don't hear of a mass exodus over this new expansion.

Airlines have been built very successfully on exactly this type of risktaking, and there's more of it on the way. To expect an industry to follow arbitrary, almost religious, rules on ettiquette of what business to do where is completely and totally illogical in today's world.
 
Guest

RE: MESA... Backstabbing Airline!

Fri May 25, 2001 11:55 am

Since when have Mesa management and employees been answerable to Comair management and pilots? I thought that Mesa were answerable to the Mesa shareholders.

Going by your own words ATRPilot, just about every pilot in the US and UK airlines are nothing but scabs, because they had the nerve to fly domestic services in Australia when we had our pilots strike in the late 1980s.

Does it say when you fly into Cincinnati.......WELCOME TO CINCINNATI....BUT ONLY IF YOU ARE COMAIR?

The people of Cincinnati are entitled to air service, and I don't think that the citizens of that city care if they fly Comair or Mesa....they just want to fly, and they are not responsible for the Comair troubles.



Scotty
Aviatsiya/Авиация
 
Guest

RE: MESA... Backstabbing Airline!

Fri May 25, 2001 12:30 pm

I had a feeling I'd get a rise at of allot of folks with post!

True, for Mesa Airlines this is a shrewd move. They have a ready made clientel of ticked off people who would probably jump on a beat up Trimotor to get where they are going on time (an exageration). Nor do I dispute Mesa's right to provide service to this market. I am an ardent capitalist, but along with that comes a sense of fair play.

Mesa has put their own pilots in one hell of a pickle. If they take over (not supplement but take over) Comair's flying out of Cincinnati, they WILL be performing struck work... that is, performing the job of others in the same union who are out on a work action. They only thing that makes that sort of okay is that they work for another company which is forcing it on them. It is indeed much different than being an off the street scab, but no less distastful for those involved.

Flashmeister (who's posts I always enjoy) implies that if the Mesa pilots don't like it then they could simply pack up and leave. That is not quite true. As anyone associated with the industry knows, a pilot job is always a precarious thing, especially at the regional level. If you want to get started as an airline pilot, you many times have to take the first thing that comes along. Then you usually end up making around minimum wage for your first year or longer... and the less said about the work rules the better! Such is the situation at Mesa (and others like them).

The pilots of Comair are making huge sacrifices to try to break the chain of unfair work rules and pay at the regional level of the industry. They make the arguement that they perform the same class of work as any other pilot flying any other equipment. I believe they are correct. Do you think it is right to let airlines fly new hire FO's 90-100 hours a month, yet have them make less than $14,000 per year (sometimes much less)? Think about that next time you fly a regional airline. Also think about the fact that the pilots may not be getting adequate meal breaks and may be coming off a reduced rest (8 hour) overnight. That is what you have to do to be a pilot, but it doesn't make it right and it needs to be changed.

Yes, Mesa has the right to serve Cincinnati. Capitalism will prevail. But the flying public should be aware that companies like Mesa propogate a sytem of hiring which takes low time (and desperate) pilots, under pays and over uses them, then reaps the rewards without sharing them with its employees. The pilots of Comair are fighting to level the playing field and they deserve the industry's and the public's support.
 
overlord
Posts: 109
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:09 am

RE: MESA... Backstabbing Airline!

Fri May 25, 2001 12:36 pm

ATRpilot-that's a good little ALPA dog.
Does this mean anyone who adds service-or flies on service once done by Comair, are scabs now?
 
Guest

RE: MESA... Backstabbing Airline!

Fri May 25, 2001 12:41 pm

Just to clarify an earlier point... I am not suggesting, nor do I believe, that the pilots at Mesa are scabs. They are not crossing any picket lines and I apologize if I somehow insinuated that.

I do, however think that their management reeks.

ATRpilot
 
B747-437B
Posts: 8777
Joined: Thu May 30, 2002 6:54 am

RE: MESA... Backstabbing Airline!

Fri May 25, 2001 12:42 pm

Just curious, but what obligation does MESA management have to support COMAIR pilots?
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
KUGN
Posts: 606
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2000 4:36 am

RE: MESA... Backstabbing Airline!

Fri May 25, 2001 12:43 pm

This is one of the far most rediculous comments I've read in long time.

It is like if Comair had monopoly over the CVG, or like all airlines were in some sort of sick brotherhood managed by centralised 5 year plan.

What is next? Shutting power to California, not to offend their off-line power plants?
 
overlord
Posts: 109
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:09 am

RE: MESA... Backstabbing Airline!

Fri May 25, 2001 12:45 pm

You're the type who thinks management reeks at every company, and that ALPA is this great, big, beneficient entity that we all should bow to. I doubt the ALPA leaders will be beatified anytime soon.
 
flashmeister
Posts: 2671
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RE: MESA... Backstabbing Airline!

Fri May 25, 2001 12:57 pm

ATRpilot-

The bottom line is that Mesa pilots are having to make a choice... a singular choice:

Do we, as members of a union, decide that we are going to hang in there for our union brothers and sisters, or do we decide that we're going to look out for Number One and keep flying?

Overwhelmingly, Mesa pilots are going to make the latter choice. They're going to look out for Number One. The entire point of a union was that everyone was going to be taken care of -- the little workerbee wouldn't be taken advantage of, and everyone will benefit.

The end result of the unions has been that the union fatcats get rich, the pilots still have to make the choice above, and the flying public is taken along on a largely political roller coaster ride every time the union decides that it will make a move.

Solidarity is dead. The Mesa pilots, if they really wanted to stand up for the little guy, would decide that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one, and they wouldn't fly the route. No one is holding a gun to their head to fly the route -- they're not strapped to the seat. They have a brain and two legs, and have the free will to do what they damned well please.

Unions now exist largely to exert disproportionate political power over management and extort higher costs (read: higher fares, too) out of the airlines.

-Aaron
 
sccutler
Posts: 5582
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 12:16 pm

RE: MESA... Backstabbing Airline!

Fri May 25, 2001 1:21 pm

Consider this-

If there were no strike, and Mesa simply decided to enter the Cinci market and they succeeded to the extent that they put Comair out of business, would that not constitute achieving the same result? Why is now any different?

Both sides in every labor dispute take grave risks- the labor, the risk that they will be replaced, that the disruption caused by their strike will cause the failure of the business, or the risk that the demands they have made will cause the business to no longer be competetive; as for management, the risk that their failure to resolve the strike will kill the business, the risk that their intransigence will cause the crippling loss of desperately-needed skilled personnel, and the risk that they might accede to demands which would make the business no longer competetive with others in its industry.

The dynamics of a strike are bad enough, as referenced, but there is no reason in rational thought why other businesses should not move into the void and serve the suffering public; that is, indeed, one of the risks both sides in a strike have to weigh in their bargaining positions.

As Scotty referenced above, should Australia have been completely shut down during the pilots' strike? You'd have to be a compellingly petty and selfish pilot to urge that!
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
DCA-ROCguy
Posts: 3894
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2000 5:03 am

RE: MESA... Backstabbing Airline!

Fri May 25, 2001 2:32 pm

IT's good to hear from you ATR Pilot...I always enjoy your posts and have missed you in our many and often intense discussions of the Comair strike.

That said, I have to agree to the jot and tittle with Aaron on this one. First of all, the Comair pilots simply aren't right this time. Management is making a fair and just offer that increases wages greatly, and provides retirement benefits. Yes, it was unjust to pay starting pilots $14k per year, and that did have to change. And it is changing.

But the fact is that the marketplace, not union bosses, now determines the pay levels of employees. Regional pilots make less than mainline narrowbody pilots because they fly smaller planes. Whether those planes are flown 45 miles to Dayton or 300 miles Dallas-Monterrey.

Unions simply cannot expect communities and people to grind their lives to a halt because their members want an 85 percent pay raise, not a 40 percent pay raise. That's just not how the world works for the 91 percent of non-union Americans...most of us would get laughed at, or fired, if we rejected such an offer. Why do union airline employees deserve an exemption from economic reality?

Please don't misunderstand me, there's no personal hostility, and you're one of the pilots I respect most at this forum because I feel like you'll actually talk and take others seriously. Oftentimes I see a sort of arroagance, as if pilots are the only people involved in aviation, and ALPA is some kind of church. Aviation, like any other human enterprise, involves many parties, all of whom have just interests. All of whom have a right to consult the data and form opinions on matters of common interest to all.

But the Comair pilots are wrong on this one....and Mesa is simply following the market demand.

ATR Pilot, what do you think of union thuggery like harassing pilots who fly strike routes, or vandalism of cars or homes, or ruining careers of pilots who don't do what the union bosses want. It's perfectly fair to strike, yes, but what right to union members have to harass and terrorize men who put their families first? That kind of social-enforcement is very out of tune in a free society, where individuals are responsible for their own destiny. It's also just plain wrong.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
Guest

RE: MESA... Backstabbing Airline!

Fri May 25, 2001 3:08 pm

I am personally a big American Eagle fan and Comair is our biggest competitor. Even though it's not AE taking over the business, I just love to see Comair sitting over their dying.

Au Revoir COMAIR!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
 
Guest

RE: MESA... Backstabbing Airline!

Fri May 25, 2001 8:29 pm

"Also think about the fact that the pilots may not be getting adequate meal breaks and may be coming off a reduced rest (8 hour) overnight."

Oh my God!! Only 8 hours of rest!

Let's look at me, a 'typical' teenager.

Yesterday:

-Get up at 6am for school.
-Spend 5 minutes having some pop tarts b4 i have to run for the bus.
-Get home at 3pm
-Go to work 3:30-6:00
-Go home, be there by 6:15p
-Leave to tape a program for our school's tv station, 6:45-9:45p
-Do homework, finish at 11p.
-Get 7 hours sleep.
So I wonder who has a harder job here?? A student or a pilot?
 
flashmeister
Posts: 2671
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2000 4:32 am

RE: MESA... Backstabbing Airline!

Fri May 25, 2001 9:18 pm

In the pilots defense, Lowfareair, you're not responsible for the lives of others while in class. Please don't trash the pilots here. My beef lies with the unions -- not the pilots themselves, who every day do a fantastic job.
 
caetravlr
Posts: 856
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 8:19 am

RE: MESA... Backstabbing Airline!

Fri May 25, 2001 9:37 pm

I have to agree with Flashmeister. Pilots do have a job where rest and being alert is critical. I also have to agree with Comair management in that, when you are flying a smaller plane, you cannot afford to pay your pilots as much as the mainline pilots are making. The Comair pilots have listed to ALPA leadership, and now they are out of work. However, unlike their nonstriking coworkers, they have a union taking a collection, and sending them money. Meanwhile, their nonstriking coworkers are sitting at home, with no income, while they wait for the pilots to fleece their employer.

I am not saying the last contract was perfect, but it was a step up, and gave them a decent pay raise, especially for regional pilots, and I don't think the work rule changes were that significant from what I have seen. I have absolutely no respect for union leadership, and think they are trying to break management, but in the end, it is the airline employees and patrons that are going to lose.

Ok, that is my 2 cents.
A woman drove me to drink and I didn't have the decency to thank her. - W.C. Fields
 
Boeing757/767
Posts: 2179
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 1999 11:05 pm

RE: MESA... Backstabbing Airline!

Fri May 25, 2001 9:57 pm

Struck work, my butt.

ALPA is the real bottom-feeder in this industry.

Mesa is simply meeting market demand.
Free-thinking, left-leaning secularist
 
Alpha 1
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RE: MESA... Backstabbing Airline!

Fri May 25, 2001 10:08 pm

I was going to say exactly what Flashmeister said, that Lowfareair is a little out of line comparing himself in that fashion with a pilot who has lives in his/her hands. Regional pilots fly a lot more landing/takeoffs daily on average than their mainline brethren, and their rest period is crucial.

DCA-ROCguy, don't expect an answer from ATR pilot, or JETPILOT about the union thuggery that sometimes takes place against people who cross the picket line, or who take their jobs when they voluntarily walk away from it. Most die-hard union people don't have a problem with that, because for them, it's either their way or no way. Years ago-in like '83, I think, two CO pilots who had crossed the picket line there had pipe bombs planted in either their cars or homes (I can't remember which), by two fellow CO pilots who were on strike-and the union never even raised an eyebrow over it.

As for Mesa pilots being "guilty" of "struck work", well, that's an interesting interpretation of "struck work". Apparently ATR pilot thinks Cincinnati should just sit on it's hands while Comair is idle. Well, Cincinnati can't economically afford to do so, and they're not going to wait for the Comair pilots to come to their senses.
 
Guest

RE: MESA... Backstabbing Airline!

Sat May 26, 2001 12:29 am

I didn't mean that pilots suck, I am talking about how they(The unions, and some of the pro-union anti-management people) say that they don't get enough rest, need more time for meals, etc. Pilots don't work for five days/week every week, but they complain as if they work 60 hours per week in a sweat shop in China at $.30/hour. Heck, I would like to be a pilot when I grow up, but some of them need to learn that they aren't 'all that'.
 
SegmentKing
Posts: 3224
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2000 7:16 am

RE: MESA... Backstabbing Airline!

Sat May 26, 2001 3:29 am

For the 9000th time, where does it show an actual Comair pilot had a takehome salary of $16,000 or less??? All the data i've seen has shown the lowest remitted to a pilot was about $22,000... so where did that $8,000 come out, or is ALPA forgetting about PER DIEM tax FREE pay. Or is ALPA assuming that First Officers don't get a raise...

tick tock tick tock.... Comair is DEAD thanks to ALPA! Long live ASA and ACJET!
~ ~ ~ ~ pRoFeSsIoNaL hUrRiCaNe DoDgEr ~ ~ ~ ~
 
caetravlr
Posts: 856
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 8:19 am

RE: MESA... Backstabbing Airline!

Sat May 26, 2001 3:35 am

SegmentKing - You are forgetting one thing in your "Long live ASA and ACJET!" statement... ASA is under ALPA also. Their contract is up next year I believe. I am not sure about Atlantic Coast. However, if the ALPA has their way, ASA will be the next company the either fleece for all the cash they have, or destroy. And then all the pilots who listened to them will be unemployed just like the Comair pilots.

Please don't get me wrong, I am not knocking the pilots at all. I put my life in their hands constantly, and respect them immensely. However, I have seen what the unions are capable of doing, and how they screw their own constituents. More specifically, I know what the AFA did to the UAL F/As, but it looks like the ALPA is equally inept.
A woman drove me to drink and I didn't have the decency to thank her. - W.C. Fields
 
DCA-ROCguy
Posts: 3894
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2000 5:03 am

RE: MESA... Backstabbing Airline!

Sat May 26, 2001 4:09 am

ALPA issued a press release today affirming its support for the Comair pilots on strike. Interestingly, the last of the reasons that they offer is that if the Comair pilots lose, other ALPA pilots will be hurt. Translation: Either the union breaks management here, or the union loses a lot of power. Meaning they won't be able to extract more unreasonably huge settlements in the near future.

If worse comes to worse and Delta must shut down Comair, a very important test of union bullying power will take place. If a shutdown occurs, expect a press release from ALPA warning the pilots of America that flying regional a/c for a Delta entity at CVG is now a "black hole," it will be considered "struck work" and the pilots will be "scabs." (an odious and hateful word that should be as despised as the n-word).

But when ACA or whoever takes over that flying, and (as I think) the pilots *don't* succumb to ALPA bullying and blacklisting, the union will lose an important part of its power--social harassment enforcement of union discipline. Pilots are free people in a free America like anyone else, and they have every damn right to take good jobs and feed their families. Regardless of what a bunch of hothead and deluded union bosses think.

Come to think of it, Alpha, I've never heard one of our ALPA pilot compadres at the forum defend or otherwise discuss union thuggery towards independent-minded pilots who put their families first. It's a real political weak spot for unions, and one that the rest of us should make sure is kept publicly front and center.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
A320FA
Posts: 87
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2000 3:16 pm

RE: MESA... Backstabbing Airline!

Sat May 26, 2001 4:10 am

Mesa is not doing anything wrong as long as thier flights do not carry the DL flight numbers according to ALPA rules another ALPA repersented pilot group cannot fly struck routes.

 
JETPILOT
Posts: 3094
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 6:40 am

RE: MESA... Backstabbing Airline!

Sat May 26, 2001 4:28 am

I'm interestead in seeing how many Meas pilots actually cross the picket line. The pilots may well not fly out of CVG out of respect and to save their own careers.

They will be scabbing.

JET
 
herbie99
Posts: 48
Joined: Thu May 03, 2001 4:43 am

RE: MESA... Backstabbing Airline!

Sat May 26, 2001 4:31 am

Thank goodness SWA choose Norfolk over Cincinnati. I would hate to see what some people would say about SWA if they would to start service to St. Louis, or Midway, or Nashville..... Oh that right, SWA would be a savior at that point with their low fares teaching that mean old Delta a lesson.
 
DCA-ROCguy
Posts: 3894
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2000 5:03 am

RE: MESA... Backstabbing Airline!

Sat May 26, 2001 4:35 am

Please forgive me if this post comes out duplicate...my computer is acting up and the original got eaten (I think).

ALPA put out a press release today reaffirming their support for the Comair strikers (yesterday was day 60) for several reasons. One was that if the Comair strikers lose, "ALPA pilot groups everywhere will be irreparably harmed." Translation: If Delta shuts down Comair, and other pilots ignore our mafia threats about ruining the careers of those who do what we call "struck work," we lose our power to intimidate pilots across the board.

That will be a big test, I think, if worse comes to worse and Delta has to shut down Comair. ALPA will likely issue a press release declaring regional flying for DL on Comair CVG routes to be a "black hole" and "struck work" and that it would be a "bad career move." Translation: we'll put pipe bombs in your car just like happened to the CO pilot.

But I'd look for pilots, who are free people in a free country who need to feed their families like anyone else, to not heed these threats. DL will move ACA and/ or SkyWest in, and pilots will fly these routes, and the ALPA mafiosi will be left standing there making threats. Would they really be able to enforce blacklisting of that many pilots in a free market where demand for pilots is so strong? I doubt it.

Again, should ATR Pilot still be reading, I don't attribute any of this thuggery to you. Pilots do great work and should be properly compensated....as Comair is proposing. But ALPA's headed for a big fall on this one, I think.

Say Alpha...where have all our ALPA compadres been on this thread anyway (JETPILOT et al).? I'd like to hear them specifically discuss the question of harrassment and intimidation of pilots who defy union bosses.

That's a big political weak spot for unions, BTW, and we should keep it very publicly visible.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
flyinryan99
Posts: 1428
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 6:54 am

RE: MESA... Backstabbing Airline!

Sat May 26, 2001 4:38 am

I read a post on AOL stating the definition of struck work was...I wish I remembered what it exactly said but it defined the lines of 3 tiers.

1st tier - All DL/DL connex airlines
2nd tier - All ALPA represented airlines
3rd tier - All other airlines

From the way I understand it...Comair ALPA has requested that only the FIRST tier not to overfly, not to start new service, etc.

Therefore, Mesa ALPA is under the 2nd tier and not under the Comair's request/definiton of struck work.

If anyone can elaborate more feel free to do so...I'm just trying to explain it the way I understand it.

Ry
 
travelin man
Posts: 3198
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 10:04 am

RE: MESA... Backstabbing Airline!

Sat May 26, 2001 4:40 am

Jetpilot --
What are you talking about???? Mesa pilots ARE NOT scabs! They do not belong to Delta, and they ARE NOT flying "struck work". As A320FA indicated, since the flights don't have Delta flight numbers, the union does not consider it "struck work".

You obviously have a twisted/false view on what is going on. Airlines compete! It will be good for Mesa pilots, if not Comair pilots. But Comair pilots and Delta have chosen not to resolve this issue, and as a result both will suffer.

"scabs". What a lame comment.
 
KUGN
Posts: 606
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2000 4:36 am

RE: MESA... Backstabbing Airline!

Sat May 26, 2001 4:53 am

FBI should be closely monitoring ALPA's behavior toward other airlines and their pilots operating from CVG.

They should if necessary use all means necessary to enforce the basic American principles - free market, free enterprise and the right to offer the service to public.

This "scab" talk should not taken litely.
 
initref
Posts: 110
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2000 12:28 am

RE: MESA... Backstabbing Airline!

Sat May 26, 2001 5:02 am

ATR Pilot,
Didn't Comair MEC declare that only Delta and Delta subsidiaries were not to fly Comair routes during the strike? Isn't (part of) the point of a strike to deny Delta/Comair the revenue from those routes? I can understand the "struck" work moniker if MESA was flying those routes on Comair's behalf - not if Mesa is simply capitalizing on an opportunity in a now-underserved market. Anyway, it simply puts another nail in the coffin for Comair.

It is another argument completely whether ALPA has "sacrificied" the Comair pilots to strengthen/prove an industry-wide position.
 
miller22
Posts: 598
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2000 4:48 am

RE: MESA... Backstabbing Airline!

Sat May 26, 2001 5:44 am

ALPA gets their money just like the mob did:

Scare people into paying them for "protection"

Its called extorsion, and ALPA does it just as much as the mob did. Only difference is ALPA murders careers. If alcohol were illegal again, I wouldn't be suprised to see ALPA open a speakeasy and moonshine still.  Smile

If ALPA wins at Comair, it means 5% profit from 95% suffering. 4000 comair employees, 400 first year comair pilots who aren't under union protection, all go back to current conditions at the best case scenario. 950 pilots get their greedy raise.

It doesn't seem right that ALPA sacrifices other's jobs for their cause...and a cause that was outright greedy from the start.
 
RJ
Posts: 192
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2001 9:28 am

RE: MESA... Backstabbing Airline!

Sat May 26, 2001 6:25 am

A little background information for you all:



Everyone knows what a "regional" airline is. Little airplanes, lots of noise, cheap tickets and short routes. Pilots who are paid poverty-level wages, who bide their time there only until they can build up enough hours to be hired by a major airline — a "real" airline.

That may be the conventional wisdom, but in 2001 it’s also the aviation-industry equivalent of an urban myth. In almost every way you care to measure — from the level of sophistication of jet aircraft to route type to ticket price to crew experience — there exists no operational distinction between today’s jet airlines but one: the number of seats in their aircraft.

But whether you’re talking about a 410-seat B747-400, or a 78-seat DC9-10, or a 50-seat CL-65, a jet airline is a jet airline and a jet pilot is a jet pilot. And despite the urban myth, Comair is a real airline, and Comair pilots are real pilots who deserve a real contract.

This report will help you understand the economic state of the airline industry and our relation to it.

Historical Perspective

Consider for a moment where we’ve been and where we’re going. Until 1978, the U.S. airline market was regulated. The government rationed and often subsidized air service. Regulation also meant that airline markets were protected. Certain carriers monopolized certain cities, which limited choices for the traveling public and drove up ticket prices. With profitability built into the system, the value of pilot contracts steadily increased.

But in 1978, deregulation put an end to the way things had been done. The airline industry changed drastically over the next decade; suddenly, airlines were subjected to free-market competition. New carriers began to pop up everywhere. Disoriented airline CEOs fixated on preserving and garnering market share, often to the exclusion of other more meaningful performance indicators such as break-even load factor and, most importantly, profits! Airlines rapidly expanded their route structures, all in the name of increasing market share. Tales of industry consolidation and leveraged buy-outs filled the newspapers. The peak of this expansion occurred in 1989, which coincided with a record year for pilot hiring.

By the early 1990s, this unrestricted expansion had resulted in unprofitable operations further stressed by heavy debt burdens. Financially sick carriers desperately tried to outlast their competitors by slashing ticket prices to attract customers. Remember Continental Lite and their "Peanut Fares"? The resulting over-capacity, coupled with under-pricing and an economic recession, didn’t help matters. Between 1991 and 1994, the airline industry lost more money than it had earned in its entire history.

Guess who suffered from this short-sighted approach — the employees, of course. Carriers like Delta, US Air, Northwest, TWA and many others furloughed hundreds of pilots. Concessionary contracts became the norm.

Notably, while the "name brand" carriers and many others hemorrhaged dollars, Comair earned profits. Comair’s net profit margin steadily increased from 6 percent in 1989 to 17 percent by 1999.

Today, the airline industry has become more economically rationalized and stabilized. The robust economy of the past several years and hundreds of millions of dollars in employee investment have slashed the debts of most carriers. Managements have finally learned their lesson: matching capacity to demand, with appropriate scheduling, frequency, and pricing, is the foundation of a successful airline operation. These epiphanies have resulted in record profits.

But there’s a fly in the ointment: a pilot shortage. The bulk of the population is getting older, and the senior baby-boom pilots are retiring. Fewer and fewer pilots are coming from the military. Airlines, in concert with collegiate programs, have only just recently recognized this void and are now investing their own money to "pick up the slack."

In addition, the CL-65 type rating is in demand because small jets are today’s hot commodity. With small jets, airlines can raid competitors’ hubs, stimulate a market with frequency, and capture market share from smaller cities for the name brand. In all of these applications, capacity is closely matched to demand.

What does this mean to Comair pilots? In short, we couldn’t have picked better economic circumstances for negotiations. Sure, everyone is stressed about their portfolios right now, and the economy has modestly softened in recent months, but the airline market by historical measurements remains relatively strong. Meanwhile, the pilot shortage shows no sign of going away. Many of us have type ratings and experience flying an aircraft that is driving expansion, preserving market share, and is most resilient to lulls in travel demand. The sheer economics support our cause. With respect to any name-brand airline, small jet operations are not a financial luxury or option. They are a force-multiplying component of the overall system and are a competitive necessity, especially to Delta, which is girding for another round of industry consolidation.

Evolution and Revolution

In the bygone era of piston-engined, small-aircraft, short-segment airline operations, the distinction between "regional" operations and those of larger airlines made sense. That distinction remained even when airlines began operating more modern, unpressurized turboprop aircraft. These were generally faster and more profitable, but suitable for use on short segments at relatively low altitudes, almost guaranteeing a rough ride for passengers. With the transition to fast, pressurized turboprop aircraft with flight attendants, the distinctions began to blur in terms of passenger service and comfort. Even the FARs changed to ensure that there was but "One Level of Safety." Aircraft such as the Dash-8, SF340, EMB120, and ATR Series were airliners that provided name-brand levels of service and even greater profitability. Until this point, the history of this segment of U.S. commercial aviation was an evolution. Then came the small jet, and what followed was a revolution.

What is a "regional" airline?

As we said on page one, today the term "regional" airline is an urban myth — a marketing term used to define a product that doesn’t exist in modern airline systems. And that fact is confirmed by examining the factors that are generally considered to separate "regional" airlines from the "real" airlines. Those factors include:

• aircraft types,
• route lengths,
• pricing,
• operating requirements, and
• crew experience.

Aircraft Types

As the myth has it, real airlines fly big aircraft while regional airlines fly small aircraft. But Delta, for example, operates jets of 11 different sizes, ranging from 107 to 302 seats — a tremendous range of aircraft that defies categorization by size. At one-third the size, a B-737-200 is unquestionably a "small jet" compared to a B-767-300, not to mention a B-777 or MD-11.

The CL-65 is a 50-seat jet, as sophisticated as any jet in the world, that perfectly complements Delta’s need to match capacity to demand. There is no operational distinction between the CL-65 and any other aircraft in the Delta fleet. Differences lie only in marketing strategies such as "Delta Shuttle," "Delta Express," or "Delta Connection."

Route Lengths

Do "regional" airlines serve only short routes, while "real" airlines serve only long routes? No. On short routes, airline marketing strategies frequently require a range of aircraft sizes to properly match capacity to demand between city pairs throughout the day. For example, consider the following daily Comair, Delta, and combined Comair/Delta service over the same short routes:

• Cincinnati – Louisville, 83 miles
· 6 CMR CL-65
· 4 DAL B-727/MD-88

• Cincinnati – Indianapolis, 98 miles
· 7 CMR CL-65
· 2 DAL MD-88

• Cincinnati – Columbus, 116 miles
· 4 CMR CL-65
· 4 DAL B-757

• Atlanta – Savannah, 215 miles
· 0 CMR/ASA
· 8 DAL B-757

• Cincinnati – Milwaukee, 318 miles
· 4 CMR CL-65
· 3 DAL MD-88

The same aircraft utilization strategy holds true for medium-length routes as well:

• Cincinnati – Minneapolis, 596 miles
· 6 CMR CL-65
· 3 DAL MD-88

• Cincinnati – Albany, 623 miles
· 1 CMR CL-65
· 2 DAL B-727

• Cincinnati – Montreal (Dorval), 713 miles
· 4 CMR CL-65

• Cincinnati – Orlando, 756 miles
· 1 CMR CL-65
· 4 DAL MD-88/B-757/B-767

And on long routes, generally considered to be the domain of the "real" airlines, the so-called "regional" aircraft — more accurately referred to as small jets — often operate on trip lengths comparable to or longer than those of many larger aircraft:

• Dallas/Fort Worth – Mexico City,
943 miles
· 3 CMR CL-65
· 1 Aero Mexico MD-88

• Cincinnati – Miami, 948 miles
· 1 CMR CL-65
· 3 DAL B-727/757

• Dallas/Fort Worth – Puebla (Mexico),
950 miles
· 1 CMR CL-65

• Dallas/Fort Worth – Greensboro, 999 miles
· 1 CMR CL-65

• Cincinnati – Nassau, 1052 miles
· 1 CMR CL-65

The bottom line is that large, medium, and small aircraft in the U.S. airline fleet overlap operations to match capacity to demand, thereby creating the greatest profitability. They share routes: bigger jets fly shorter routes and smaller jets fly longer routes — all dependent on the operational needs of any given hour of the day. There are no operational limitations that separate the small jet from any other aircraft in this dynamic matrix.

Pricing

"Regional" service means lower ticket prices, according to the myth. You buy a ticket on Delta, you pay big bucks; but buy it on the "regional" affiliate — Comair — and you save. Not true — and for a very obvious reason: small jet operators don’t provide discount service.

In fact, Comair’s customers are primarily full-fare-paying business travelers who demand convenient, high-quality service on equipment that gets them to their destination quickly and comfortably. In other words, on Comair they want, and receive, the treatment they expect to find on Delta, United, or any other "real" carrier. They find the real thing at Comair, and they pay the same prices they would pay at Delta.

Operating Requirements

The airplanes are old, dirty, and probably unsafe. The pilots are inexperienced and probably unqualified. So the "regional" myth would have you believe. If passengers ascend the stairs believing that, such thoughts perish when they enter a Comair jet.

Small jets — in Comair’s case the CL-65 — are as safe, sophisticated and technologically advanced as any jet aircraft in the world. Passengers love them, and with good reason. Small jets operate under FAA Part 121 rules, with the same tight safety and inspection standards required of all airliners.

Similarly, the pilots who fly them are highly qualified — as sophisticated as their aircraft. Under Part 121, all airline pilots — including small jet pilots — must meet the same stringent standards, including:

• initial and recurrent training,
• check rides and line checks, and
• first-class FAA physical exams every six months for captains, every 12 months for first officers.

They’ve "paid their dues" and earned their flight hours before they were hired by Comair — as flight instructions, or as pilots flying for the military, corporations, or freight or charter operations. Given the FAA-required training for any specific model of aircraft, they have the experience to fly any commercial jet in the U.S.

Myth: Small Jets = Small Profits

Don’t think that the Comair pilots’ strike is going unnoticed. If the media is any indication, we’ve kicked up a lot of dirt. Regional Airline Association President Deborah McElroy recently said, "The (Comair pilots’ Big grin pay is in no way related to competence."1 You bet it’s not. "You have to look at how much revenue they get on those flights."2 We couldn’t agree more. In the same article, Comair President Randy Rademacher said, "This is bigger than Comair."3 No kidding. Even the public agrees that paying airline pilots peanuts is simply wrong.

The reality is that small jets have taken on a new role for Delta. They’ve evolved from a shareholder luxury into a competitive necessity. If you look at the percentages in the last 10 years, Comair operations beat Delta by more than two to one when it comes to net profits, net profits per employee, and net profits per passenger. Comair’s small jet operation has only increased those margins. (Figure 1)

How many times have you heard Comair management say, "Forget about profits, we have higher costs than Delta." Oh, really? At Delta, the pilot crew cost per passenger this year is approximately $15.42. Compare that to the $7.80 pilot crew cost per passenger at Comair. Both of these values include salary and benefits. (Figure 2)

Management will attempt to incite the public into clamoring, "Ticket prices are going to go sky high!" But in reality, this isn’t the case. So how would our desired contract affect each passenger, even if management refused to absorb any of the cost (despite last year’s 24 percent profit margin)? The Comair pilot crew cost per passenger would be about $12. (A crew includes both pilots on a flight.) Comair and Delta management have forced a Comair pilot strike after three years of negotiations and have caused weeks of passenger inconvenience for a cost increase that amounts to $4 per passenger.

In the other extreme, if Comair completely absorbed the additional cost, its profit margin would still be 50 percent greater than that at "mainline," which achieved less than a 12 percent profit margin two years ago and a 10.5 percent profit margin last year. Does this mean that we expect to earn the same pay as a B-747 pilot? Of course not. Pilot pay varies, commensurate with responsibility (aircraft size) and productivity (economic contribution to the airline’s system). However, we justly expect to be treated and paid in the same manner as any other airline pilot, with wages appropriate for the size and productivity of our aircraft, work rules and scheduling that respect our time and reduce fatigue, and security for our families with reasonable health insurance costs and a real retirement plan. These things are standard for airline pilots, and there is no reason that they aren’t standard for Comair pilots. When Comair pilots are treated in the same manner as other airline pilots, Comair’s profit margins will still be the envy of the industry.

Delta is using CL-65s as it should: to mine the fortress hubs of other mainline operations. Comair operates seven daily flights into US Airways’ Charlotte hub. It operates another nine flights into Northwest’s Detroit hub, and six flights daily into United’s Washington Dulles hub. The list includes other strongholds like Indianapolis, Cleveland, Minneapolis, St. Louis, Toronto and Memphis, not to mention smaller markets that offer a finite number of high-value business passengers.

Let’s get REAL about our operation and how it is integrated with the rest of the Delta brand offerings. We serve many of the same cities, charge the same or higher prices, and generate higher-percentage profit margins. However, the differences between crew contracts for "Delta" and "Delta Connection" (Comair & ASA) pilots are like night and day. If Delta’s compensation formula can be equally applied to 11 different aircraft sizes, why can’t the same formula work for one more size the CL-65? It can! Why aren’t CL-65 salaries, work rules, and benefits on scale with those of other aircraft? There is no economic or financial reason that they can’t be.

As many pilots throughout our professional history have done, we will answer the singular question, "What is a pilot worth?" The answer is, "No less than any other airline pilot." Our strike is about establishing a parity, about setting a bare minimum standard. Whether we fly a B-747 or a CL-65, the fact is we are all airline pilots who generate revenues sufficient to benefit the shareholder as well as compensate us in an equitable manner.

What is Comair’s (or, more appropriately, Delta’s) liability in this strike? Very high. Former Delta passengers are "booking away" to competing brands. Delta’s market share is being raided. There are only two kinds of CL-65 pilots, those employed and those on-strike. There are no replacements. Furthermore because of an industrywide pilot shortage, Comair pilots have excellent airline employment alternatives, whereas management’s only alternatives are many times more costly than treating us properly. Both sides have options. We have career-enhancing options, management has self-destructive options.

So let’s review. The airline industry took 20 years to make a transition into the free-market system, with plenty of turbulence for pilots along the way, but we’ve finally made it. Fundamentally, the industry is financially healthy, and forecasted to have solid growth through 2008. Small jets are airliners, like any other airliner. Management places them into operation to match capacity to demand, and charges passengers as much as the passengers are willing to pay — the same way management uses any other airliner. Because small jets are used to carry a high percentage of high-yield passengers, they generate mouth-watering profits. These are the reasons that small jets are referred to as "flying ATMs." Small jet pilots do the same job as any other airline pilot, without exception. For this reason, we expect contractual parity on scale with airline pilots flying larger equipment, just as they themselves have parity on scale with one another.

What is parity on scale? All pilots have a company-funded retirement program that allows them to retire in dignity. All pilots have their time used productively, or are otherwise compensated for their time. All pilots have adequate rest. Finally, all pilots are paid appropriately for the size and productivity of the airplane they fly (not on the number of seats that may be installed).

Can Comair (Delta) "afford" a parity-on-scale contract? Absolutely. At one extreme, if Comair absorbed the entire cost increase required to establish parity on scale, it would retain 50% greater profitability than the "mainline" operation. At the other extreme, if Comair (Delta) passed the entire cost through to our passengers, the premium would be $4 per passenger for the two-pilot crew. Either option is easily absorbed by either party, and more easily absorbed if shared. Given that our crew cost per passenger would rise to around $12, and that the "mainline" crew cost per passenger is presently $15.42 (and getting ready to rise), Comair pilots will still be a bargain.

So when we ponder or are asked the questions that seek to quantify, "What is a pilot worth?" — we can answer that question. That is exactly what we are doing one marching step and one day at a time. In so doing we are also exposing the "Regional" airline myth to the light of day.

1 USA Today, 04-03-01, Page B2
2 USA Today, 04-03-01, Page B2
3 USA Today, 04-03-01, Page B2


RJ (on strike)
 
RJ
Posts: 192
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2001 9:28 am

RE: MESA... Backstabbing Airline!

Sat May 26, 2001 6:42 am

Sorry folks, I forgot to mention the source of the article. It's called the Urban Myth and was produced by our MEC Communications Chair. It sums things up a lot better than I could.

RJ (on strike)
 
DE727UPS
Posts: 810
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2000 10:55 am

RE: MESA... Backstabbing Airline!

Sat May 26, 2001 7:04 am

I talked to my Mesa buddy today who is a RJ Capt. Of course, Mesa pilot's are represented by ALPA and I doubt many would cross an ALPA picket line....my friend said he wouldn't. At this time Mesa flying into CVG is not considered struck work.

There have been a lot of dramatic comments by the ALPA haters here that love to tout the evils of unionism. They never bother to mention, or like to be ignorant of, the safety improvements brought about and promoted by ALPA. TCAS, flight/duty time limits, MEL limitations, ETOPS limits, accident investigation, ect....these are all areas where ALPA has "helped" management see that safety should come before profits. Do you think management could give a crap about the safety improvements TCAS provides? If so....why doesn't the management of the cargo companies (FEDEX excepted) favor TCAS in cargo aircraft? ALPA and the pilots that belong to ALPA were essential in getting TCAS mandated in passenger aircraft.

Union thuggery? I can only speak from personal experience. When I was involved in an airline strike, one of the 15 or so pilots on the line with me once, and that was once during a two week period, berated another pilot who worked for a company flying during the strike. I personally felt embarrased that our pilot gave this guy a bad time cause he would have lost his job if he refused to fly. Only one of the 15 pilots said a word to this guy, there was no physical violence, and no cars had flat tires.

The Comair pilots are still interested in talking....the company isn't interested anymore. Regional pilots in this country have deseved a raise for a long time. Comair may go away....DL may feel they beat ALPA if the Comair pilots don't accept some weak offer just because it's endorsed by a mediator.....this fight will go on and ASA is next.....then Mesa....then ?
 
travelin man
Posts: 3198
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 10:04 am

RE: MESA... Backstabbing Airline!

Sat May 26, 2001 7:52 am

The airline industry took 20 years to make a transition into the free-market system, with plenty of turbulence for pilots along the way, but we’ve finally made it.

If it was a free market, then pilots would get paid whatever the market would bear.

And if it was a free market, an airline would be able to enter a market without being called a "Backstabber".
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: MESA... Backstabbing Airline!

Sat May 26, 2001 12:27 pm

JETPILOT, you're union drivel is so predictable, and so far from reality that it's not even credible anymore.

And DE727UPS, I for one do appreciate all the safety improvements that unions have brought into the workplace-not just in this industry, but in others. That's something that nobody can question. What irks many of us "union haters" as you put it isn't this part of the unions-it's this militant thuggery that raises it's ugly head each time there's a strike. There's a long litany of it in the airline business, and it's not a pretty history either. I think less people would be against the pilot's unions if they weren't so bent on intimidation and threats against those who would gladly take thier jobs, or against those who don't agree with their views.

Maybe you haven't seen the thuggery, but I mentioned what happened to 2 CO pilots back in 1983, when two fellow pilots tried to kill them with car bombs. Now ,that's a little extreme, wouldn't you say. Fortunately ,these two upstanding union brothers were put in jail for a long time for attempted murder, yet if I remember right (and maybe I don't), but the union back then said nothing to distance themselves from these thugs. the IAM operated the same way at EA during form the late 70's until they, along with Lorenzo, drove the airline into the ground.

Many of use feel that the union could accomplish a lot more, and garner a lot more sympathy if they weren't so damned pig-headed.
 
flashmeister
Posts: 2671
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2000 4:32 am

RE: MESA... Backstabbing Airline!

Sat May 26, 2001 12:37 pm

You are correct, Alpha 1, regarding the CO pilots.

Two of them were found, in San Antonio, with a map of three 'scab' houses... two of which already had bombs at them.

They were sentenced to 8 years each for attempted murder.

This is one of the more extreme cases of thuggery, but there are countless others, from slashed tires, to fecal matter being found in 'scab' pilot's bags, to harrassing and threatening phone calls.

And, you're also right: the union never said a word. That's the sort of organization I sure respect...
 
B747-437B
Posts: 8777
Joined: Thu May 30, 2002 6:54 am

RE: MESA... Backstabbing Airline!

Sat May 26, 2001 12:49 pm

Alpha1 works for CO in CLE. They fly to CVG, so he's a scab.

I flew through CVG on Delta en route to SFO last weekend. I guess that makes me a scab too.

The Reds play baseball in CVG. Oooh - how dare they - those scabs.

My buddy Eric lives in CVG. Damn - that makes him the biggest scab of the lot.

Any other scabs out there?

HEIL ALPA!
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
DCA-ROCguy
Posts: 3894
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2000 5:03 am

RE: MESA... Backstabbing Airline!

Sat May 26, 2001 1:31 pm

RJ, your long union-PR article is unconvincing. It's typical of unions--drown people in lots of statistics that ignore the real issue: in a free market, deregulated industry, *the market sets pay rates.* Not union bosses. Markets. So all your route comparisons and percentages, that are supposed to show how Comair pilots deserve an 85% raise instead of the 40% they're being offered, don't mean a fool thing.

The carefully framed "urban myth" about regional carriers is false. Regional carriers have been carefully rationalized arms of the majors since the early 1990s, as anyone familiar with the industry by employment or frequent flying knows. They have been flying clean and modern turboprop and jet aircraft for a long time. We are very aware that Comair carries Delta passengers, and that its route system includes Mexico. Those of us who fly regional carriers are also well aware that the damn fares aren't any lower. The fares need to drop, they don't need to be hiked by either higher profit expectations or excessively high employee contracts.

I seriously doubt that the Comair pilots demands would only raise fares by $12 for the average passenger. Even if that figure is accurate, very other union would demand 85 percent pay raises as well, and that would blow fares through the roof.

It's hilarious that Jet and other ALPA folks here call anyone who doesn't blindly and uncritically accept ALPA's assertions "ALPA haters." We don't love or hate unions, we just want a good airline product at a reasonable price. Unions have helped bring about all the safety improvements DE727UPS mentions--in this industry they serve as part of the checks and balances that strengthens the culture of safety. That's what unions are especially good for. So we're all grateful for that.

However, we recognize when one party in the airline industry has decided that it can autonomously shut down the whole kit and caboodle because it wants gigantic pay raises. Go ahead, drown us in statistics. But the bottom line is, rejecting a 40 percent pay raise over four years is greed.

And should Comair cave in, and fares rise, the marketplace would correct the spike in costs. Consumers aren't going to tolerate another structural round of fare hikes like the airlines institutionalized in the 1990's. We have budgets too. Just last week consumers--the market--slapped down a proposed fare hike the majors tried to institute.

Fortunately, we have real choices on many routes now--low-fare airlines that free us from dependence upon the Six Families to many markets.

Jim









Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
Guest

RE: MESA... Backstabbing Airline!

Sat May 26, 2001 6:16 pm

>>Compare that to the $7.80 pilot crew cost per passenger at Comair.<<

OK, so the pilot cost is lower. So what? I guess the meal cost per passenger is lower too. Does that mean that meals should be served to make up for the cost? Of course not! Comair's costs are different than Delta's. They have to pay for different things, such as more fuel for the RJ's, and higher landing fees account for some of it as they have shorter stage lengths than DL, etc. What I am trying to say is that So what if you have Jets? The only difference is that it is more expensive to operate than a 50-seat prop.
 
RJ
Posts: 192
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2001 9:28 am

RE: MESA... Backstabbing Airline!

Sun May 27, 2001 1:18 am

DCA-ROCguy,

I had a feeling that you wouldn't be convinced by union numbers. Therefore I will provide you with a link.

http://www.planebusiness.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=8&t=000295&p=1


Please read the entry produced by 502leap. It is located about halfway down the page. He is a retired Comair pilot that will provide you more insight to the situation. Once again, he sums things up better than I could. I hope this helps you see things from our perspective. This contract is not all about money. Quality of life issues are more relevant than money. The devil is always in the details and I hope that thread gives you some of the details. There are some very good threads that occur on that web site. You might want to check them out and participate.

RJ (still on strike)



 
SegmentKing
Posts: 3224
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2000 7:16 am

RE: MESA... Backstabbing Airline!

Sun May 27, 2001 1:21 am

So again, for the 90001th time, how many Comair Pilots ACTUALLY take home $16,000 or is ALPA stuck in another lie.... i'll re-iterate. The data I've seen shows the lowest paid FLYING PILOT with 1 year seniority took home at least $22,000.................... that's $8,000 more than the propoganda that ALPA is putting out...
~ ~ ~ ~ pRoFeSsIoNaL hUrRiCaNe DoDgEr ~ ~ ~ ~
 
miller22
Posts: 598
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2000 4:48 am

RE: MESA... Backstabbing Airline!

Sun May 27, 2001 2:31 am

It all boils down to the Comair pilots want to be mainline pilots without losing seniority. That is how this all started. They want retirement, highest pay and best benifits, just like the mainline carriers. Now its turned into "if we don't get what we want, we'll take comair down with us." I've got news for you pilots, you can't take comair down because comair is already dead. All comair is, is an entry in Delta's accounting ledger. Comair isn't fighting for their existence, but rather Delta is fighting to teach ALPA a lesson. that lesson is..."the industry is finally standing up to you."
The day is nearing an end when pilots can get whatever they want just because an airline can't be flown without them.

Pilots aren't gods!
Quit demanding the world treat you like one.
 
RJ
Posts: 192
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2001 9:28 am

RE: MESA... Backstabbing Airline!

Sun May 27, 2001 2:44 am

SegmentKing,

I pulled out my W-2 for the first year that I worked here. Since my hire date was in Jan. it reflects an entire year of work. In box #1 (Wages, tips, and other earnings) it reads:

$14,517.13

The union is not lying about the first year pay, and the rate that I was working under was the $16.18 hr. rate. Oh, and of that the government took $1813.21 in taxes, $900.06 in Social Security and 210.50 in Medicare. As for how many people are working under this wage is irreverent. Would it make that wage fare if 10% worked under it? How about 17% or 25%? I do not see what you are getting at. BTW, that $16.18 hr. rate applies to both the Brasilia and the CRJ. I hope this information helps.

RJ (on strike)
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: MESA... Backstabbing Airline!

Sun May 27, 2001 3:28 am

RJ, I think I'd drop the "on strike" in parenthesis. You don't have Comair to go back to-you and the other stubborn pilots there killed it off.
 
jrlander
Posts: 1025
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 1999 3:47 am

RE: MESA... Backstabbing Airline!

Sun May 27, 2001 4:04 am

Would someone please clarify for me what non-pay issues exist in the Comair/ALPA dispute?
 
flashmeister
Posts: 2671
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2000 4:32 am

RE: MESA... Backstabbing Airline!

Sun May 27, 2001 5:12 am

RJ - it's not fair to quote a salary without quoting a year - what year is that W-2 for?