TWA717_200
Topic Author
Posts: 1410
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If It All Went Wrong...Who Would You Want?

Sat May 26, 2001 11:14 am

First of all, I'm not looking to start a flight crew versus A&P war here...I've seen them before.

But consider this scenario: Your at cruise altitude and it ALL goes wrong (IE UAL 232).

Who would you rather have on the flight deck with you? Your F.O. or an A&P? Who knows their plane better?

PS...Note the circumstance that I put forward before jumping to your answer.
 
JAL
Posts: 3875
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RE: If It All Went Wrong...Who Would You Want?

Sat May 26, 2001 11:47 am

My F.O. of course!
Work Hard But Play Harder
 
TWA717_200
Topic Author
Posts: 1410
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 1999 3:51 am

RE: If It All Went Wrong...Who Would You Want?

Sat May 26, 2001 11:52 am

JAL, I wish you could provide an explanation of your answer. Considering that you are in the 21-25 year old age bracket, I find it hard for you to have a F.O. in the first place.

I really want some professional answers here.
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: If It All Went Wrong...Who Would You Want?

Sat May 26, 2001 12:06 pm

I to would want an F.O. An A&P knows everything about the aircraft on the ground. The F.O. knows everything about the aircraft in the air. Pilots are trained to handle these scenarios, which the crew of 232 did. If I recall correctly, and don't take this as a statment that pilots are superior, but the mechanics had knoiw idea what to do because it never happened before.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
Buff
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RE: If It All Went Wrong...Who Would You Want?

Sat May 26, 2001 12:10 pm

Given the choice, as there is one of each on board, I'll use 'em both!

Best Regards,

Buff
 
JAL
Posts: 3875
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RE: If It All Went Wrong...Who Would You Want?

Sat May 26, 2001 12:18 pm

I would prefer to have a FO on the flight deck in case of an emergency coz as pilots they're train for any emergencies that might happen during the flight.


I sure do hope this satisfy you, TWA717_200.
Work Hard But Play Harder
 
Guest

RE: If It All Went Wrong...Who Would You Want?

Sat May 26, 2001 12:34 pm

Definitely the F.O. He knows the plane much better.
 
Twotterwrench
Posts: 1087
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RE: If It All Went Wrong...Who Would You Want?

Sat May 26, 2001 12:40 pm

The F.O. knows the plane much better? God help me my sides are splitting from the peals of laughter bellowing out of me. The FO is often the source of the worst advice... going to ground school does not teach you how the airplane REALLY works, it teaches you how it is supposed to work. Nothing teaches you like pulling your hair out all night trying to figure out why the Low Pressure warning light won't go out or troubleshooting a bypass system down to its nuts and bolts. The FO can recite the rhetoric, the AMT can tell you what is really going on. Given a choice, I would take both. The more the merrier, but don't ever discount what the AMT knows about your airplane. I GUARANTEE he knows it better than the flight crew does. Saying otherwise NWA, just shows you are too young and inexperienced to answer this question.
 
ben88
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RE: If It All Went Wrong...Who Would You Want?

Sat May 26, 2001 12:58 pm

If I were an experienced captain, I would take the A&P. My experience plus his knowledge of systems would be the best combination.
 
737doctor
Posts: 1291
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RE: If It All Went Wrong...Who Would You Want?

Sat May 26, 2001 1:40 pm

Bravo, Twotterwrench!!!

That post just put you on my Respected Users list...
Patrick Bateman is my hero.
 
B747-437B
Posts: 8777
Joined: Thu May 30, 2002 6:54 am

RE: If It All Went Wrong...Who Would You Want?

Sat May 26, 2001 1:55 pm

Personally, I'd pick a priest.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
coboeing777
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RE: If It All Went Wrong...Who Would You Want?

Sat May 26, 2001 3:11 pm

the FO knows that something is wrong...

the A&P knows WHY it went wrong...
 
Guest

RE: If It All Went Wrong...Who Would You Want?

Sat May 26, 2001 3:29 pm

My FO in the cockpit and an A&P, no - the entire maintenance department, if necessary on the flight phone. One guy needs to fly the airplane, the other guy needs to run the checklists - we'll get the airplane on the ground then let the mechanics troubleshoot the dang problem after we've landed. Mechanics are great people, we couldn't fly without them but they do their best work on the ground.
 
242
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Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2000 1:10 pm

RE: If It All Went Wrong...Who Would You Want?

Sat May 26, 2001 4:06 pm

I really didn't want to reply to a loaded question like this one, but here goes:

>>But consider this scenario: Your at cruise altitude and it ALL goes wrong (IE UAL 232).

Who would you rather have on the flight deck with you? Your F.O. or an A&P? Who knows their plane better? <<

The F/O. He (or she) is trained for in-flight emergency procedures in regards to the operational safety of the aircraft.

The A&P may have a better overall picture of the entire aircraft and its systems, but the pilots are going to know the best way to get the aircraft on the ground in one piece.

>>Definitely the F.O. He knows the plane much better.<<

I had to chuckle at this one. Reminds me of a situation a few years ago where a newby F/O was doing his preflight and found a clear fluid leaking out of the belly at two locations. Thinking it was fuel, and wanting to play hero of the day, he wrote it up in the book and called it in to MTC control. As the call from MTC control came in to one of my co-workers, it interested me to go out and take a look, as well as one of the MTC supervisors.

To make a long story short, the fluid was condensation from the AC packs, normal operation. The captain showed up right after we did, sized up the situation and took his Flap Operator aside and proceded chew some serious ass.

Once the tongue lashing was complete, the very embarrassed captain thanked us for coming out. We signed the log the best we could without making anyone look stupid, and left.

We laughed about that one for months.






 
BA FOREVER
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RE: If It All Went Wrong...Who Would You Want?

Sat May 26, 2001 4:40 pm

I think I would want my mummy!
 
galaxy5
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2000 10:09 pm

RE: If It All Went Wrong...Who Would You Want?

Sat May 26, 2001 7:17 pm

there used to be a guy like an A&P on=board he was an aircraft systems specialist, he was called a professional flight engineer and the airlines in their great wisdom and greed eliminated that safety feature.
"damn, I didnt know prince could Ball like that" - Charlie Murphy
 
Guest

RE: If It All Went Wrong...Who Would You Want?

Sat May 26, 2001 7:36 pm

Galaxy5,

Two words in reply - I agree!

Cheers.
 
lgb
Posts: 61
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RE: If It All Went Wrong...Who Would You Want?

Sat May 26, 2001 7:45 pm

a professional flight engineer and the airlines in their great wisdom and greed eliminated that safety feature

What percentage of crashes would likely never have occured had a flight engineer been present in the cockpit? Can you give some specific examples?

Lars
 
L-188
Posts: 29870
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RE: If It All Went Wrong...Who Would You Want?

Sat May 26, 2001 7:58 pm

Two words....


Joe Patroni!
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
galaxy5
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2000 10:09 pm

RE: If It All Went Wrong...Who Would You Want?

Sat May 26, 2001 10:13 pm

well, i once saved an aircraft as a flight engineer. it was a IMC flight to do an AR we where passing through a freezing lvl at about 110 when the pilots and copilots VSFI and FD went haywire the airspeeds dropped to zero and the autopilot aggressively pitched up and down. the pilots where at a loss and aircraft control was comprimised. i then reached up above the copilots head and turn on the pitot and AOA heaters ( which the pilots forgot to turn on even though it was called for in the checklist and the responed to it saying they where on ) they had no idea what was wrong and where starting to panic for about 30 seconds. now you tell me did i save the crew from iminent death, i dont know but i did help turn a situation around that could have had dire consequences.
"damn, I didnt know prince could Ball like that" - Charlie Murphy
 
L-188
Posts: 29870
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: If It All Went Wrong...Who Would You Want?

Sat May 26, 2001 10:24 pm

I would say that they owe you more then a couple of drinks!
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Golfhaus
Posts: 131
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2000 2:18 pm

RE: If It All Went Wrong...Who Would You Want?

Sat May 26, 2001 11:14 pm

I have to wonder... if there's a problem in the wing, the A&P can fix it... but how the heck is he going to do that at 32,000 feet? It's a bit windy up there, his tools might blow around a little.  Smile
 
miller22
Posts: 594
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RE: If It All Went Wrong...Who Would You Want?

Sat May 26, 2001 11:14 pm

I would rather be in a 727 with my FO and FE. If you're flying a 727, you know everything about that airplane. A & P's are much more critical with todays aircraft where something goes wrong and the pilots have no clue. However, a 727 pilot knows everything he needs to know to fly the airplane regardless of what happens. Thats the way they train them.
 
DeltaSFO
Posts: 2407
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2000 11:22 am

RE: If It All Went Wrong...Who Would You Want?

Sat May 26, 2001 11:47 pm

well, i once saved an aircraft as a flight engineer. it was a IMC flight to do an AR we where passing through a freezing lvl at about 110 when the pilots and copilots VSFI and FD went haywire the airspeeds dropped to zero and the autopilot aggressively pitched up and down. the pilots where at a loss and aircraft control was comprimised. i then reached up above the copilots head and turn on the pitot and AOA heaters ( which the pilots forgot to turn on even though it was called for in the checklist and the responed to it saying they where on ) they had no idea what was wrong and where starting to panic for about 30 seconds. now you tell me did i save the crew from iminent death, i dont know but i did help turn a situation around that could have had dire consequences.

Save it for the bar, ace.
It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.
 
galaxy5
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2000 10:09 pm

RE: If It All Went Wrong...Who Would You Want?

Sun May 27, 2001 12:16 am

hey DeltaSFO, whats wrong are you jealous. or do you make mistakes like that youself all the time.
"damn, I didnt know prince could Ball like that" - Charlie Murphy
 
B747-437B
Posts: 8777
Joined: Thu May 30, 2002 6:54 am

RE: If It All Went Wrong...Who Would You Want?

Sun May 27, 2001 12:34 am

Dude - watch what you say about DeltaSFO. He has single handedly saved N866DA from a rather watery problem at MCO once.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
Twotterwrench
Posts: 1087
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2001 5:57 pm

RE: If It All Went Wrong...Who Would You Want?

Sun May 27, 2001 2:48 am

B747 - how does a CSA save an aiplane from anything??? More glory stories for the bar I suppose...
 
JAT
Posts: 1064
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2000 4:45 am

RE: If It All Went Wrong...Who Would You Want?

Sun May 27, 2001 4:51 am

242, Wouldn't leaking fuel give off a scent? I'm sure fuel and condensation don't smell the same.
 
777kicksass
Posts: 648
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RE: If It All Went Wrong...Who Would You Want?

Sun May 27, 2001 5:23 am

OK I don't know what an A&P is!!

Maybe then I could answer
 
Guest

RE: If It All Went Wrong...Who Would You Want?

Sun May 27, 2001 5:35 am

>>well, i once saved an aircraft as a flight engineer. it was a IMC flight to do an AR we where passing through a freezing lvl at about 110 when the pilots and copilots VSFI and FD went haywire the airspeeds dropped to zero and the autopilot aggressively pitched up and down. the pilots where at a loss and aircraft control was comprimised. i then reached up above the copilots head and turn on the pitot and AOA heaters ( which the pilots forgot to turn on even though it was called for in the checklist and the responed to it saying they where on ) they had no idea what was wrong and where starting to panic for about 30 seconds. now you tell me did i save the crew from iminent death, i dont know but i did help turn a situation around that could have had dire consequences.<<

And what were you doing when these items were missed on the pre-departure checklist Mr. Flt engineer?? Obviously not paying attention either. I'd say you all were at fault and this is certainly nothing to brag about!

 
galaxy5
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2000 10:09 pm

RE: If It All Went Wrong...Who Would You Want?

Sun May 27, 2001 6:28 am

um let me see. it was called out in the checklist. the pilot responded that they where on. so that being said i assumed they where on ( being a flight engineer i am not required to look over the pilots back and flip the switches for him). maybe when you grow up and fly as a crew member you can try to ridicule but until then just sit down and the back and do what the stew tells ya.
"damn, I didnt know prince could Ball like that" - Charlie Murphy
 
galaxy5
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2000 10:09 pm

RE: If It All Went Wrong...Who Would You Want?

Sun May 27, 2001 6:40 am

this is exactly why i dont post about my job on here. to many butt wipes who dont know what the hell they are talking about, try to ridicule and make themselves feel good about their lives or somthing.
"damn, I didnt know prince could Ball like that" - Charlie Murphy
 
Guest

RE: If It All Went Wrong...Who Would You Want?

Sun May 27, 2001 7:06 am

>>so that being said i assumed they where on..<<

Yea, the famous last words! You know what they say about ASSuming. Your job is not to assume but to verify that items are done! And if they're not, your suppose to bring it to the other crewmembers attention. That means to actually *look* as you read the checklist and make sure the items have been accomplished, not just listen for some response. Do you just assume the correct ILS or VOR freq has been tuned in before each approach or do you look and verify?

The fact that you didn't catch the items missed makes you look as bad as them in the CRM dept. You have the best vantage point in the cockpit to oversee checklist compliance...take advantage of it.


>>to many butt wipes who dont know what the hell they are talking about, try to ridicule and make themselves feel good about their lives or somthing. <<

Sounds exactly like what you're doing in your original post. I started as a flt engineer. I've progressed through all the seats and taught for years on different aircraft. I know what I'm talking about! I have discovered several mistakes by the flying crew and brought it to their attention when I was an engineer...that was part of my job.

P.S. I haven't seen a "stew" in years! Boxes don't need anything.


 
242
Posts: 495
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2000 1:10 pm

RE: If It All Went Wrong...Who Would You Want?

Sun May 27, 2001 8:19 am

>>>242, Wouldn't leaking fuel give off a scent? I'm sure fuel and condensation don't smell the same.<<<

They don't smell the same at all. That's one of the things that made this particular incident so funny and memorable. If the f/o had just confered with his captain before taking any action, this mess would have been avioded. I'm guessing he felt that his duties were over since he had found the "leak" that it was MTCs job to determine what exactly it was.

 
TWA717_200
Topic Author
Posts: 1410
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 1999 3:51 am

RE: If It All Went Wrong...Who Would You Want?

Tue May 29, 2001 6:06 am

Thanks for your answers, all.
 
Guest

RE: If It All Went Wrong...Who Would You Want?

Tue May 29, 2001 7:55 am

There's an old saying: (1). Aviate, (2). navigate, (3). communicate. Those three things must be strictly adhered to when an emergency arises, and division of such tasks is paramount.

The person best equipped to handle the three tasks above is a FO. That's what he/she has been trained to do. As a new FO with a lot to learn (still) myself, I make it a point to acquire as much systems knowledge as possible.

While I have a lot of respect for L-188 and Twotterwrench, it seems that these guys have a lot of animosity towards (at least some) pilots. We're not all a bunch of blithering idiots, but it's too bad that a few knuckleheads out there give us a bad name. With that said I wouldn't ever turn down an A&P's advice in an emergency. After all, everyone is part of the same team.

While an "A&P" would be nice to have, it's really no big deal to have ops one mic click away and have the problem trouble shot over the airwaves. Been there and done that with much success.

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