NUAir
Posts: 1144
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2000 4:24 am

EU (Schengen) Vs UK

Tue May 29, 2001 1:11 am

Comming from Europe and living most of my life in the States and now living back in Europe I have to say that one of the greatest achievements of the EU has been the introduction of the Schengen partnership.

With the Schengen agreement traveling within the EU (+Iceland and Finland) becomes much like traveling domestically in the US. You do not have to go through any passport controls or customs checks. The amount of money an airport saves in reduced staff and the amount of time the individual passenger saves from not being stuck in line is extreamly significant.

Of course if you are a member you put your faith in the fact that other members are keeping up their end of the deal and checking all international arrivals into their borders.

With the recent election polls in England it looks like yet again England will continue to distance themselves from the rest of Europe and will probably not introduce the Euro within any of our lifetimes. But as far as becoming a member of Schengen what the hell is keeping them down. I know the existing members want the UK and Ireland as members even with their contaminated cows, sheep and pigs. And with unemployment rates on par and in some cases higher then the real EU members they don't stem to risk the influx of a vast amount of imigrants.

So please I would love to be informed by someone in England why I can't fly to your country without a passport and over an hour of sitting in customs and passport control lines. Working at AMS it is even more of a headache because we have so many passengers going to and from the uk and we have to designate special areas just for them that are very expensive and restrict our use of other aircraft flying to Schengen areas. Stop the isolation BS and accept that you are a part of Europe.

If anyone out in airliner.net land is the uk or Ireland please inform me why you are not a Schengen member or why you don't want to be a member.

Kind regards,
NUair
AMS
"How Many Assholes we got on this ship?" - Lord Helmet
 
fax
Posts: 145
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2001 7:55 pm

RE: EU (Schengen) Vs UK

Tue May 29, 2001 1:38 am

Like you said in your post, you have to put trust on fellow Schengen members' abilities to stop things such as illegal immigrants, rabies etc.

Most Northern European countries would probably meet the grade at ports and airports, however with very long borders next to poorer neighours - they can't guarantee checks on all visitors. The United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland do not have confidence in our Southern European friends, or in the fact that they share the same principles on entry.

Based on the fact that one third of the EU asylum applications are made in the UK and that it is the principal destination for illegal immigrants, it would be a political fool that gave up our own right to border control.

It is therefore for that reason that the UK and Eire will not participate in Schengen. I think for the UK it is the right decision, but as a regular visitor to Europe it is more inconvenient for me and I can see some benefit for the rest of the EU and its citizens .
 
Guest

RE: EU (Schengen) Vs UK

Tue May 29, 2001 1:49 am

.....and as far as stronger membership of the EU is concerned, you have to understand that 52% of Brits would like to completely sever ties with the EU-yes, 52% are completely against being an EU member-with more than 75% being against joining the single currency.

Don't know why so many Brits are anti-Euro, I suspect it partly relects distrust of non-British people in handling economic and other affairs. I think you just have to accept that the British have a certain kind of attitude, different from that of other Europeans.

(IMO).

Rgds,
CP
 
NUAir
Posts: 1144
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2000 4:24 am

RE: EU (Schengen) Vs UK

Tue May 29, 2001 2:14 am

It seems that the uk wants all the benefits of the EU without sharing any of the risk..

All EU members are dealing with increasing immigration concerns and all countries are for the most part taking action to reduce the impact and abuse of their very large social systems, it is not just a uk issue. The fact is that developed countries should take their share of the responsibility in helping the citizens of all the colonized countries that were abused and taken advantage of for centuries. If most of these people are speaking english then I think it says a lot about who is responsible for their current economic conditions. Yet it appears England does not want to be a part of the solution to the problem that they were more then happy to create, so the rest of the European nations are stuck with a large influx of immigrants from former English colonies.

I agree that opening your borders is a very risky concept but bottom line is that you still need to be an EU citizen and have the proper documentation to find a legit decent paying job. No nation is freely giving out EU citizenship and we have very strict guidlines for becoming a citizen. I think its a shame the UK and Ireland want to continue to seprerate themselves from what could be a very promising partnership. And even though Schengen membership and EU membership is not directly related, as in Finland and Iceland, I think it should definetly be a high priority for the people of the UK and Ireland.

Even though it is only a small part, non-restricted travel from and to the UK and Ireland would benefit everyone involved and help to reduce already bad delays at London airports and main European hubs. It doesn't have to be a life or death deal and if after a 1 or 2 year test it isn't working out then you would be more then able to go back to your old ways and you could deport all the illegal imigrants back to your former colonies or the rest of the EU.

Risk is just a part of life and you often have to take some risks if you ever want life to get better. I'm sure EasyJet, Ryanair, and British Airways would all agree.
"How Many Assholes we got on this ship?" - Lord Helmet
 
f.pier
Posts: 1405
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RE: EU (Schengen) Vs UK

Tue May 29, 2001 2:21 am

NUair, I agree 100% with you (and I'm proud to be European).
 
GOT
Posts: 1843
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2000 6:44 am

RE: EU (Schengen) Vs UK

Tue May 29, 2001 2:26 am

Just wanted to add that members of Schengen are EU, except of UK and Ireland plus Norway and Iceland  Smile.

GOT
Just like birdwatching - without having to be so damned quiet!
 
ryanb741
Posts: 5058
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 6:36 pm

RE: EU (Schengen) Vs UK

Tue May 29, 2001 2:39 am

The major problem is that many Brits cringe when they see the state some European countries are in, and for this reason wouldn't want to be part of it. For example, if the EU was comprised of Germany, The Netherlands and the Scandinavian Countries then I think we would join tomorrow, but with Italy, Portugal and Spain involved then we get just a little suspicious. I think the US Dollar is perhaps best suited to the UK, not the Euro.

As for UK immigration - we get the bulk of all asylum seekers arriving in Europe, and countries like France are doing very little to prevent these people crossing the channel. As such, we have to be stringent in our immigration procedures.
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
Guest

RE: EU (Schengen) Vs UK

Tue May 29, 2001 2:43 am

I think Schengen is good, on the other hand you won't even be able to ask for a passport stamp bcoz you don't need to go thru immigration.

NUair

Finland is a part of the European Union. Norway is the other country that is in Schengen but not in EU.

Alexander
 
philb
Posts: 2645
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 5:53 am

RE: EU (Schengen) Vs UK

Tue May 29, 2001 2:57 am

As a Brit, living in Ireland, I would love to see the UK and Ireland in Schengen.

Too many Brits are insular for the wrong reasons. It really tees me off when I have to be segregated from the rest of the Europeans and the attitude of some British Immigration Officers can be quite intimidating to non frequent travellers. What right they have to demand of holders of British passports the purpose of their journey at the start of the 21st century is beyond me.

It isn't to do with criminal intelligence (an often quoted excuse) as they have other means of finding and tracking criminals. Its more the continued desire of bureaucracy and government to control.

Some of the things I've seen on Eurostar leave a lot to be desired in terms of the Officers' inter personal skills.

As to the Republic of Ireland, travel between Ireland and the UK is very much on a Schengen type basis, all you have to do is show your boarding card counterfoil on arrival in the UK from Ireland or, in the other direction, you are not really troubled at all.

As to the Euro, I'll be in South Africa on January 1st so will miss the change over here.

Once the Brits wake up to the fact that staying out costs them ever higher exchange commissions and wider bank buy/sell differentials both business and the individual traveller will be clamouring for a referendum. A
Apart, that is, from that fool Angus Maude who declared on Friday's Any Questions that exchanging currency and paying the commission was part of the fun of overseas travel. But that's the Tories for you.
 
G-CIVP
Posts: 1408
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RE: EU (Schengen) Vs UK

Tue May 29, 2001 3:53 am

What the hell has this topic go to do with aviation?
 
englandair
Posts: 2193
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2000 4:34 am

RE: EU (Schengen) Vs UK

Tue May 29, 2001 4:16 am

My thoughts exactly & the whole topic seems, to me, to be a dig at Britain & Eire.
 
G-CIVP
Posts: 1408
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 6:38 am

RE: EU (Schengen) Vs UK

Tue May 29, 2001 4:30 am

This isn't an aviation related topic at all, its a political one and has absolutely nothing to do with this branch of the discussion forum.
 
philb
Posts: 2645
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 5:53 am

RE: EU (Schengen) Vs UK

Tue May 29, 2001 7:02 am

Englandair/G-CIVP,

This has a whole lot to do with aviation.

The problems for airlines/airports and ground handlers are immense. In Schengen countries there now have to be gates to handle flights from Schengen and non- Schengen European countries. Flights arriving with EU citizens have to have passengers directed to EU Schengen, EU non-Schengen and non EU control points as the rules for each are different. For internal EU flights this is an utter nonsense.

This may not sound much, but it becomes a logistical nightmare, takes valuable space at overcrowded airports, slows passenger flows and annoys passengers.

At Amsterdam, where the original poster works, the airport authority has had to spend millions of Guilders to re-assign gates, split passenger flows and handle a problem that should not exist.
 
qantas744
Posts: 1658
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 6:25 pm

RE: EU (Schengen) Vs UK

Tue May 29, 2001 7:13 am

One of the real problems that British people have with the EU stems from the fact that we are an Island nation,and as such have a 'them and us' attitude,a bit like the attitude people from the Isle of Wight have within the UK.Although even people from Portsmouth have this sort of attitude seeing as Portsmouth is the only British city not on the mainland.(Not including Northern Ireland.)
you can't buy time but you can sell your soul and the closest thing to heaven is to rock'n'roll
 
N863DA
Posts: 1140
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 6:36 am

RE: EU (Schengen) Vs UK

Tue May 29, 2001 8:25 am

>>So please I would love to be informed by someone in England why I can't fly to your country without a passport and over an hour of sitting in customs and passport control lines.<<

There is no difference for EU passport holders in the UK than for any other UK passport holder... that is to say the line is often instantaneous (you just flash the fact that it's maroon and they wave you on thru) - you go thru none of the checks that Americans or any other nationals go thru...

And as to Customs, anyone entering the UK from an EU country goes thru the Blue Lane Customs - where the same thing applies - you just go thru as tho it were a domestic flight.

Your accusations are groundless - the only difference between going to the UK from other EU countries and to say France or Germany is that you NEED your passport. It takes little (if any) longer for you to flash your EU passport than to go thru, for example, CDG. There is no need to 'wait in line' at all as you get treated exactly the same as UK citizens.

And as an aside, if the UK wants to distance itself from Europe, good for them.

Get off your high-and-mighty Euro-horse.

FLY DELTA JETS and sail UNITED STATES LINES



N 8 6 3 D A
 
Guest

RE: EU (Schengen) Vs UK

Tue May 29, 2001 8:29 am

oooh, I feel a debate coming on... Big grin Big grin

Rgds,
CP
 
philb
Posts: 2645
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 5:53 am

RE: EU (Schengen) Vs UK

Tue May 29, 2001 3:54 pm

N863DA,

I'll bet my experiences of entering the UK (as a white UK born citizen with right of abode) between, let us say, 1995 and today (around 120 transits by air, ferry, tunnel and Eurostar) against your glib representation.

The system is a nonsense and is costing travellers, airlines and airports a great deal of money to "protect" Britain - the excuse for which used to be "terrorism" (when there was/is an open border between the UK and the Republic), now the excuse is asylum seekers.

 
gkirk
Posts: 23346
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:29 am

NU-air

Tue May 29, 2001 4:10 pm

I would just like to point out that you mention the UK then start talking about England without mentioning Scotland, Wales and N.Irelad which are also part of the UK. Is it me or are you one of those who thinks that the UK is England by itself. I notice a lot of Americans do this mistake also.
As for the Schengen, it doesnt really matter to me if the UK is in it or not.
Graham
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
Krushny
Posts: 756
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2000 4:22 am

EU (Schengen) Vs UK

Tue May 29, 2001 4:37 pm

Someone posted that UK is the country with most asylum applications, and that it is the main destination of illegal immigrants. Is it really true? I would say that Germany attracts more immigration (higher rent per capita, borders with eastern Europe); but it is also true that Britain (France too) had many more colonies . Can someone post actual data?
Also it is laughable the argument that UK needs to keep their border controls to prevent infectious diseases getting into the country, in light of the "mad cow" and aphtose fever affairs. It is evident that UK sanitary standards are sub to par compared with most European countries.
I think that UK out of Schengen has more to do with the British mentality (beware of continentals...) than with objective reasons.
 
NUAir
Posts: 1144
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2000 4:24 am

RE: EU (Schengen) Vs UK

Tue May 29, 2001 5:04 pm

Just to clarify why I started the topic, and its link to aviation.

Passport control and customs control is very expensive to maintain and operate. It is also the cause for numerous delays and hassles for passengers, airlines and even more so the airports.

An extreamly large number of passengers travel from continental Europe to England/Ireland/Scotland/Wales/N.Ireland and as these number continue to increase and delays at major airports become an increasing problem the question on every airport capacity person in continental Europe is what is keeping the before mentioned countries from becoming Schengen members. Living in the United States you are free to fly anywhere as long as you have a ticket and some form of identification. Now imagine that to fly to Illinois you need a passport and customs check. Not only will this cause delays it will also restrict the type of aircraft and the origin/destination of the aircraft as far as which aircraft stand it can use for security reasons.

Now at AMS we have piers dedicated to the operation of European (Schengen aircraft) and to European (non-Schengen) aircraft. But a stand dedicated to Schengen aircraft cannot be used by a non-Schengen aircraft. Vice versa is ok. While this is not a major problem for the airport directly it is a problem for the gov't officials who have to assign passport and customs control officers to each pier dedicated to non-Schengen flights. Since they (could apply to most EU gov'ts) don't always cooperate most clearance areas are understaffed. This causes major delays. When you throw in airlines like EasyJet and Ryanair who depend on quick turnaround times, the problem quickly escalates. These carriers then blame the airport in question leading to many legal and financial battles between the airlines, gov'ts and airports. Kind of ironic considering both EasyJet and Ryanair are based out of non-Schengen countries.

With future privatization for Schiphol and privatization for Frankfurt (June 11th) addressing these issues is a top priority because while the airport is no longer under gov't control the security is. And I can guarentee that the delays will only get worse. So with already bad delays and continued capacity problems, especially at Heathrow, how much sense (from and airline/airport/passenger perspective) does the uk/Ireland/N.Ireland/Scotland/Whales not belonging to the Schengen agreement make?

I'm sorry if you still don't see the relevance to the airline industry but it is a major concern at any European airport. And when you design things for operations in 20 years it is a very very important consideration.

So I would like to hear a solution from someone on the England/Ireland/Scotland/Whales/N.Ireland side of things rather then further complaints about delays in continental Europe.

I would hesitate to call this issue in any way minor as travel between the mainland and the "islands" accounts for billions of dollars per year. And their are many other ways to combat immigration issues outside of passport and customs control.

NUair
"How Many Assholes we got on this ship?" - Lord Helmet
 
gkirk
Posts: 23346
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:29 am

RE: EU (Schengen) Vs UK

Tue May 29, 2001 5:07 pm

Thanks! Big grin
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
Guest

RE: EU (Schengen) Vs UK

Tue May 29, 2001 6:23 pm

A: Finland is an EU member
B: EU citizens can travel to the UK without a passport as long as they can show that they are an EU citizen.
C: There has never been a requirement to have a passport to travel between the UK and Ireland or vice-versa.
 
eg777er
Posts: 1782
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2000 11:11 pm

RE: EU (Schengen) Vs UK

Tue May 29, 2001 7:20 pm

I don't understand the problems you have at Amsterdam.

From what I remember, AMS-LHR (in fact, AMS-UK) flights depart from the International piers such as D, C, B etc.

So what's the problem about calling them international flights?

You still have to have EU and non-EU sections in the international passport control becuase you will have Dutch citizens arriving (who are EU citizens) from other countries such as the US.

What is wrong with lumping UK flights with those to the US, Africa, Asia etc? as they do at the moment.
 
Guest

RE: EU (Schengen) Vs UK

Tue May 29, 2001 7:52 pm

WHAT the hell are you on about?

ENGLAND IS PART OF THE UNITED KINGDOM TALK ABOUT NOT HAVING A CLUE.

Im suggesting the removal of this thread since ti has no real relevance to airlines, in fact it just seems an exucse to start on us brits.
 
NUAir
Posts: 1144
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2000 4:24 am

RE: EU (Schengen) Vs UK

Tue May 29, 2001 9:38 pm

Parra

A. I appoligize I made a mistake but it has already been corrected in previous posts.

B. Passport or ID card it is still anohter line to stand in and another security point to pass through.

C. I never said that you needed to have a passport to fly between the UK and Ireland so maybe you misunderstood me or are referring to another post

Eg777er

The B and D piers are going to be renovated hence the current problems we are having with Schengen vs. non-Schengen and stand allocation.

The difference between non-Schengen flights and US flights is that the frequency and the loads are much much greater and have a larger impact on delays.

AMS-UK 94.208 movements
AMS-All non EU destinantions (excluding UK, Ireland) 66.208 movements.

London alone accounts for 16.754 aircraft movements the next closest US destination is New York with 3.169 movements.

If you look at passenger traffic to Paris and Frankfurt it is also on the same level.

Go Air Canada

I'm sorry that this post offends you I'm trying to bring into this forum another side of Civil Aviation other then "it would be cool if United ordered a Il-86 and flew it from Chicago to Miami" type posts.

As you know the EU is going through some deep transition, and yes I know the difference between England and the uk but I did not know the differences in international regulatory decision making between the different areas. This is not an attack on England or anyone else but an attempt to understand why opening customs and identification control, which could one day lead to complete open skys, and help BA/KL to possibly go through with their alliance plans, is such a problem.

You can't ignore politics when you are talking about aviation in Europe.

If this post really offends you or anyone else that much I will also suggest deletion and bring it over to the planebusiness.com forum.

"How Many Assholes we got on this ship?" - Lord Helmet
 
G-CIVP
Posts: 1408
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 6:38 am

RE: EU (Schengen) Vs UK

Tue May 29, 2001 9:39 pm


"and the attitude of some British Immigration Officers can be quite intimidating to non frequent travellers. What right they have to demand of holders of British passports the purpose of their journey at the start of the 21st century is beyond me."

Wrong - When leaving the UK, if you are a British citizen you are not asked for your passport by Immigration Officers.



 
ryanb741
Posts: 5058
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 6:36 pm

RE: Krushny

Wed May 30, 2001 12:47 am

The reason the UK attracts more asylum seekers that Germany, France etc is partly because of the ex-colonies and also because of the language - English is the first foreign language spoken by most people and for this reason this is why the UK is a more attractive opposition.

Also, the UK likes to talk tough about illegal immigrants etc but the truth is that our asylum system is a shambles, far more than Germany and France. This is why the UK harbours many bogus asylum seekers who sometimes are terrorists in their home countries (for example, a significant number of Taleban 'bad boys' have settled in London).
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
philb
Posts: 2645
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 5:53 am

RE: EU (Schengen) Vs UK

Wed May 30, 2001 2:39 am

G-CIVP,

I'm not wrong, you are TWICE.

If you care to read and understand my post which you quote, you might realise that I was talking about questions when ENTERING the UK. No mention of exiting was made by me. To question people, who are not listed as under police surveillance, about the purpose of their trip abroad is arrogant interference more redolent of Fascism and Communism than the supposed cradle of freedom.

You are also WRONG about not being asked for your passport when leaving the UK.

At airports you have to show your passport prior to entering international departures, where you are subject to covert anti crime surveillance (to stop "wanted" people skipping the country) and the officer has the discretion to question your right to take any child accompanying you.

You are checked again by airline staff before boarding - but that is for a different purpose, although airlines have links to immigration to ensure that any passenger they are carrying will not put them in jeopardy with the authorities.

As to asylum seekers, here in Kerry the county town, Tralee, has a population of 21,000 and hosts over 220 asylum seekers from Romania, Czech Republic, Russia, Latvia, Nigeria, Somalia and a number of Kurds.

Most are not genuine asylum seekers but the Irish system is slower and more ponderous than the British.

Krusny,

Before having a go at British sanitary standards, you might take the time and care to learn about foot and mouth. The current outbreak is linked to illegally imported foriegn meat.

Foot and mouth is endemic in over half the countries of the world.
 
eg777er
Posts: 1782
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2000 11:11 pm

RE: EU (Schengen) Vs UK

Wed May 30, 2001 3:44 am

PhilB,

I've flown out of LHR (to non-EU destinations) more times than I'd care to remember and have NEVER been asked anything to do with the purpose of my journey.

A cursory look at the passport at checkin is all that happens - and this is just for ID and to check that your passport has the right visa for the country of destination.

Are you sure you aren't just imagining things?
 
G-CIVP
Posts: 1408
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 6:38 am

RE: EU (Schengen) Vs UK

Wed May 30, 2001 3:58 am

Phil B

First - Yes I can read! However, I don't think your particularly clear about entry/exiting the UK in that paragraph.

Second, if you enter the USA, you are asked about the purposes of your visit. Australian immigration is also pretty tight. I can't see that British HM Immigration is any different in that respect.

I beg to differ about being asked for your passport when leaving the country. The British government abandoned the checking of passports for outgoing passengers sometime ago. Gone are the days of standing in line behind waiting to be seen by a HM Immigration official on the outbound journey from a British airport. This was my intended point.

Instead, as you note, this hasn't been abandoned completely but there are many occasions when you can enter the departure lounge without any formal or informal check.

Yes. I am aware that check-in staff ask for your passport but in the context of the posts until this point, the discussion was on the role of immigration officials, not airline staff.
 
Hepkat
Posts: 2134
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2000 8:22 am

RE: EU (Schengen) Vs UK

Wed May 30, 2001 4:53 am

I'm actually quite glad to have read these posts. They are quite educational, and give a unique insight to how Europeans think. As an American living in Vienna, I can't help but say that all this talk about Shengen borders, and the Euro and immigration reminds me of the United States 200 years ago, when the different states were trying to agree on unification. One heard the SAME arguments (border controls, problems with the different currencies, legal issues, etc..), but I'm proud to say, that many, many, many years later, we have a shining example to show the world of just how important unification is, and its undeniable benefits. Think about it, much less paperwork, much less controlling/inspecting/patrolling, one currency, commonly agreed upon standards, protocols and formats (have you taken a look at phone numbers and area codes within the EU states lately? There is no standard, it's a data manager's worst nightmare!). There are just too many benefits to list. Europeans just can't seem able to get over their obsessive fears and realize that there is strength in unification. My God, travelling between member states of the U.S. is a BREEZE compared to travelling between member states of the E.U.! Here in Austria, I still get passport controlled as a foreigner travelling around the country. I got controlled travelling on the train from Vienna to Linz, twice, from Austria to Germany on the train, even though I was travelling to a Shengen country. Flying from Stockholm to Vienna a few weeks ago, I was still asked to show my passport. I mentioned that I didn't realize I had to carry my passport between member states and was met with a snide remark. They even opened up my luggage (all I had was a carry on).

My E.U. friends, wake up! Establish ONE border, ONE currency, ONE army, ONE federal policy. Perform ONE passport control at the EU border, and let decent citizens already in the EU live their lives in peace. Stop wasting all this money and time. And if you're still worried about illegal citizens in the EU, then figure out a way to better control the main EU borders.

Sorry if this is off the aviation topic, but I think these things need to be said.
 
ryanb741
Posts: 5058
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 6:36 pm

RE: EU (Schengen) Vs UK

Wed May 30, 2001 5:04 am

Yes, but remember that the US states were still culturally fairly similar. The EU is a rich tapestry of cultures and many people don't want to lose their individual identities.

The problem is who is going to run it. Brits are peed off at the power already held by Brussels with its pointless regulations and directives(bananas must be straight, making it a criminal offence to display products in pounds/ounces instead of kilos -my God, how awful Big grin). There is absolutely no way we would sit back and let somebody like Germany or France run the thing (which is what would happen as the UK is crap at standing up for its own rights - (look how it took all the blame for the mad cow crisis and Foot and Mouth) when the French had concealed these problems in its own flocks for years. Plus, the UK is in Europe solely by location and not by culture (we are far more like the US than we are like the French for example).

Your analogy of the United States of America is perhaps not totally relevant to a United States of Europe, because each of the US states hadn't been around developing its culture for 2000-odd years before unification.

So yes, while I agree that, in principle your idea is a good one, in reality the execution of the plan will be a nightmare. After all, communism was a good idea, but has it worked? Nada.
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
Guest

RE: EU (Schengen) Vs UK

Wed May 30, 2001 5:15 am

Hepkat,

I agree, but as I have already said, cultural differences & attitudes between (specifically) Britain, and (generally) the rest of the EU member states are (I think) too far apart to allow closer integration in terms of the single currency, taxation, education etc. etc.-for the moment.

The Brits are an extremely arrogant & paranoid bunch when it comes to talking about the EU-and if anyone else thinks I am "having a go" at Brits-yes, I am-in the context of EU membership.

Labour promises to hold a referendum on the single currency-even so, they've got a mighty uphill struggle coming their way.

BTW, as regards the formation of the US, I don't think you can really compare the two-a different set of circumstances were in operation then-and even then, the Brits were fiercely at war with the French over territorial rights etc.

Again, just my opinion on the issue.

Rgds,
CP

P.S. Please will others stop bleating about this discussion not being aviation related...you have a point with certain posts, but this thread is of a particularly "high" quality, and it would be desirable to leave it as it stands for the meantime.
 
Hepkat
Posts: 2134
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2000 8:22 am

RE: EU (Schengen) Vs UK

Wed May 30, 2001 5:52 am

Ryanb741:

I hear what you're saying, but can you imagine that no one state should run the whole affair? Again, looking at the U.S., federal affairs are run by officials elected by constituents to sit in a federal parliament. State affairs are run by officials elected to sit in the different state parliaments. Each state is still completely sovereign, with its own laws, customs, flags, anthems, dialects, etc....but they have given up just a few rights to the federal government. I think this DIRECTLY relates to aviation, as we see in the U.S., it is the federal agency that regulates aviation, and in so doing, is able to move at a considerably quicker speed than it's European counterpart. In exchange for giving up the right to regulate its own airspace, each U.S. state enjoys the benefit of security, border control, traffic control, airline control, etc., provided by one central federalized authority.

Why couldn't such a system work in the E.U.?

I also understand the point about different cultures evolving for how many hundreds of years, but again, the U.S. has demonstrated that it is ENTIRELY possible to keep one's identity inside a federalized union. As mentioned before, each state is almost sovereign, with their own systems and laws. They regulate everything within their own borders, they could even establish their own official languages if they wanted to. I think this sort of system is a great compromise between federal powers and individual state powers. Why couldn't this also work in Europe?

Let me tell you, this is completely relevant to aviation. As a black American, I am TIRED, yes, read my lips, T-I-R-E-D, of being harassed at so called Schengen borders. It's so bad now, that I have to walk around with my passport, even inside the EU border. My opinion is, if Europeans would shift their view to a more unified vision, with a central authority, then once you get checked at the border, you'll never have to again worry while on the inside, and they can for one and for all do away with these stupid discriminatory laws requiring foreigners to carry a passport (how do you know I'm a foreigner by looking at me?). I know it exists in theory, but not in practice. Use your own imagination to figure out how this would be a boon for air travel as well.
 
ryanb741
Posts: 5058
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 6:36 pm

RE: EU (Schengen) Vs UK

Wed May 30, 2001 6:28 am

Well, I guess that leaves us with two issues then. One would be the harmonisation of immigration protocol throughout the EU, which would make it easier for people once in the EU to traverse freely within it without restriction (I speak from experience here too as my wife has a Thai passport and although we live in London(i.e. within the EU), she needs a visa every time we go to France etc).

The other issue is becoming part of a European superstate, and it is here where I believe there are too many issues to be resolved. I belive many Brits would be in favour of some kind of bilateral agreements (Look at the Commonwealth) but only where we are in charge!(I'm not saying this is the right attitude, but it is a British one). Plus, the UK doesn't really fit well into Europe anyway to be honest - I mean, an ideal union for most Brits would be one made up of the UK, USA, Australia, NZ, Netherlands and the Scandinavian countries! There is a predominately 'Island' mentality here, and also many Brits would object to handing some of the power to Germany when we fought so hard to defeat them in WWII (again I'm not saying this is my view, or indeed the correct view, but there is too much social tension between Germany, France and the UK for a smooth transition).

Also, it depends on what the ultimate objectives of the Superstate are. Is it just about harmonisation, or is there something more sinister involved? My suspicions are that one of the member parties who have been pressing so hard for the Superstate (naming no names, but the capital is Paris!) would be very keen to create another superpower to rival the USA, and this desire is not for healthy competition, but is borne out of resentment (I'm going no further on this particular subject because this ain't the time or the place! - but having lived in France for a few years and also having a French mother, I must admit that it opened my eyes as to the true motivation of many French). This is I believe why the US has fought so hard to preserve its 'special friendship' with the UK, because like it or not, Europe does need the UK within it to become a true superpower, and I'm pretty sure the US has done its homework and realises this! Otherwise, I suspect that the US will need to look over its shoulder not just at China, but the EU as well.
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
Hepkat
Posts: 2134
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2000 8:22 am

RE: EU (Schengen) Vs UK

Wed May 30, 2001 6:48 am

And what's wrong with competing with the U.S.? Living here in Europe has really opened my eyes as to how the U.S. really bosses you guys around. But what can you do about it? Absolutely nothing (ok, y'all voted the U.S. off that Human Rights Commision thing and voted in Sudan instead) because each E.U. state is too small to even cause the slightest concern in Washington. Add spineless to that list, as you guys hardly have any formidable armies worth talking about.

I think competing superstates would be a great idea. It would force the U.S. to actually straighten up and listen every once in a while.
 
philb
Posts: 2645
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 5:53 am

RE: EU (Schengen) Vs UK

Wed May 30, 2001 7:02 am

eg777er and G-CIVP,

Just goes to prove how effective the Immigration exit control is as you both seem to find it imperceptable.

I agree it isn't as bad as in the days in the 1950s and 1960s when I first started travelling abroad but the fact is - and the point of this thread - for EU, or even EEA countries, it is TOTALLY unnecessary.

As to checking you have the correct visa for the country of destination, UK Immigration are not interested in that - that is the airlines' problem.

However, Immigration do still randomly stop British passport holders on exit and ask them a range of questions, even if they are not on any surveillance list.

Eurostar passport control OUTBOUND can be more officious than any airport (Ashford was particularly bad during the first 12 months of the service) and the grilling some people got on the train inbound (particularly pax ex Brussels) was none too subtle either.

From this random trawl they say they pick up a number of malefactors every year, who have either changed their appearance, are travelling under false/forged passports. My point is these could be picked up by other methods.

As to the comparison with the US, Australia etc., I've no problem with being asked on arrival there - they are not supposed to be in a UNION with the country of which I am a citizen.

Hepkat, some news for you. As a white UK citizen, I am liable to arrest in the US if I walk around without acceptable ID - it depends on the attitude of the police officer. The further south you go, the more intolerant the police become. So it isn't just Europe. But I agree, the thing is a MESS.
 
Hepkat
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Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2000 8:22 am

RE: EU (Schengen) Vs UK

Wed May 30, 2001 1:51 pm

PhilB:
You never need to have a passport with you while in the U.S., all you need is an acceptable form of ID. Here in Austria, not even a driver's license will suffice. As a foreigner, the law here requires me to have my passport at all times. How anyone can tell I'm a foreigner just by looking at me is a question I'd love for the judiciary of this country to answer. As far as I'm concern, the system in the U.S. leaves no room for discrimination, for the police officer has no idea which country you come from, or whether you are an illegal immigrant, by checking your ID. Here in Vienna, discrimination is the name of the game.
 
eitlean
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon May 28, 2001 8:35 pm

RE: EU (Schengen) Vs UK

Wed May 30, 2001 2:44 pm

In response to some of the above posts, if there is too much social tension between certain states in Europe, then surely that is something to face up to and work on, not something to run away from and thereby fear even more. Fear engenders hatred, intolerance and paranoia. European states have far more in common with each other than with the USA, Australia, or other 'new' states. They share the same part of the globe, they have deeply intertwining histories, and, most of all, they have together given birth to modern western civilization. Former colonies such as the USA and Australia are very young by comparison. Just because Britain is an island doesn't mean it's OK to remain sceptical about the European project. Every other European state has its own fears and problems with deepening union, the British are not alone. Indeed, some other European states can at times be seen to castigate the UK unfairly for its scepticism, when they may be projecting their own insecurities about the project onto the British and blaming them for holding things up. It is important that the UK provides their 'sobering' contribution to the debate - but not to go overboard and pretend that it can return to past days of an English-speaking commonwealth. As I see it, the whole world is becoming increasingly socially homogeneous, albeit some areas quicker than others. The whole point of us all being interested in this website i.e. aviation and how the people of the world can be more efficiently, more quickly, more smoothly be connected with each other, underscores the ultimately inevitable process of which we are all a part, particularly in western countries, i.e. integration. The practicalities of how this integration is realised can be worked out in time. The USA federal model is only one option, but why not create new options? Learn the lessons of the past, for sure, but let's not allow the past to hold us back from the visions of the European enlightenment. (not German enlightenment, or British enlightenment, or French, or Italian etc., but EUROPEAN enlightenment!)

Eitlean
 
philb
Posts: 2645
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 5:53 am

RE: EU (Schengen) Vs UK

Wed May 30, 2001 3:50 pm

Hepkat,

To most US police, a European driving licence or ID card is as useful, or as understood, as European currency is in a US bank.

I've had conference delegates involved in traffic accidents, carrying ID cards and driving licence, have me take their passports from their hotel rooms to the local precinct as the cops were refusing to release them without acceptable ID. Over the years this has happened about half a dozen times, each in different States.

All you say in your first sentence can be translated as "carry your passport, or you are without ID."

As to discrimination, have you not seen the news in the last few years? Discrimination is rife in the US - as it is in most other countries.

By the way, I can tell a North American, (black or white)here in Ireland, or anywhere else in the world by looking - and be right around 85% of the time. Same goes for Germans, French, Dutch, Italian etc.. It all comes from living in a continent of very distinctive cultures, rather than a country of a mixture of distinctive cultures rapidly forming its own.

Style of dress/cut of clothes, haircut, spectacles and even some faces are distinctively North American.

Even with the "world culture" in many of the items I mention, there is something non-European about most North Americans. Same goes for Europeans in the US.

They look and act differently in subtle ways and can be picked out before they even open their mouths.
 
heisan67
Posts: 1001
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 1999 8:34 am

Norway

Wed May 30, 2001 6:17 pm

Just would like to point out that Finland is an EU-member already. Schengen countries is most of the EU countries + Iceland and NORWAY.
Norway and Iceland is not members of EU, but connected to EU by the EEA agreement, and no Schengen of course.
 
NUAir
Posts: 1144
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2000 4:24 am

Finland

Wed May 30, 2001 6:36 pm

Ok I am soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo sorry about the mistake and I obviously can't say that enough since nobody seems to be reading past the initial post.

So I deeply appoligize to everyone in Finland and Norway I guess I typed it to fast or just wasn't thinking right.

I think the comments so far explain why Schengen will never be expanded to the before mentioned countries. So I guess we will have to continue to group the English and Irish flights with all the other non-Schengen European flights to Eastern Europe. Assuming that Eastern European countries stay out of the agreement.

Why did England/Ireland enter the EU in the first place? I guess we may never know. Since it apparently had nothing to due with actually uniting with the rest of Europe.

And to all the English and Irish enjoy your three security checks on your way out of Europe and back to your safe Islands, free of illegal immigrants.
"How Many Assholes we got on this ship?" - Lord Helmet
 
Hepkat
Posts: 2134
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2000 8:22 am

RE: EU (Schengen) Vs UK

Wed May 30, 2001 6:51 pm

PhilB:

No one is contesting the fact that discrimination is not rife in the U.S., but it's not enshrined in our laws. If someone discriminates against me, I have legal recourse. Here, the discrimination is written in law, and that's my fripe. It's the system here that invites discriminatory practice.

Case in point, I routinely get pulled over while driving, or singled out while in the airport, or approached while on the streets here in Europe and asked to produce my passport. In the U.S., when a cop does that to me, I sue him, his department and the State for untold millions.
 
airsicknessbag
Posts: 4626
Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2000 2:45 am

RE: EU (Schengen) Vs UK

Wed May 30, 2001 7:18 pm

Excuse me, what´s discriminatory about having to show your passport to a police officer? Here in Germany everyone aged 16 or more has to carry the federal ID card or passport all the time, German, foreign resident or tourist, what´s wrong with that?

Sometimes I think you Americans take the concept of freedom a little too far...

Daniel Smile
 
Hepkat
Posts: 2134
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2000 8:22 am

RE: EU (Schengen) Vs UK

Wed May 30, 2001 7:30 pm

It's discriminatory because the law requires that all FOREIGNERS carry their passports, not citizens. How are you going to tell if someone's a foreigner? The only to tell is by looking at my skin color. This is discrimination. Someone's who's white can also be illegal, but they might never get stopped because they look like a citizen. Get it?

Furthermore, when the police, or any other agent for that matter, knows you're a foreigner, all sorts of abuse can follow.

This law would never get passed in the U.S., because it applies clearly asks law enforcers to judge who looks like a foreigner and who doesn't. If there were such a law in the U.S., it would either have to apply to EVERYONE or NO ONE.

I see the issue of freedom differently, we in the U.S. are much freer than our European counterparts. There're too many forms of control here.
 
Guest

RE: EU (Schengen) Vs UK

Wed May 30, 2001 7:58 pm

NUair

Not all Brits (and perhaps the Irish, but I don't know) are firmly against joining the single currency & further integration with the EU.

The stats I quoted above were taken from The Economist, which itself lifted the results from a survey, in which 1006 people were asked about Britain's links to the EU.

So it is merely 52% of the 1006 people asked in the survey; it is debatable as to whether the results from that survey are an accurate relection of the UK's stance on this whole issue; the Conservative party are largely responsible for perpetuating any "resentment" against the EU with their pathetic rantings, such as "two weeks to save the pound" & "we will clear up Labour's asylum mess".

No, I don't support either party, but can you see where Brits get their opinions from? Not from informed, factual analyses & data, but from politicians desparate to gain votes; I reckon that's part of the problem, not just British people's attitudes in general;

already two Brits on this thead (maybe more) have expressed their frustration with their country's stance, as regards closer co-operation with Europe.

Hepkat,

So you can sue an officer/other official for doing his job?!

That is ridiculous, and I am glad it doesn't happen here. If an official asks for ID, you show it to him, there shouldn't be any need for your questioning his request-he is doing his job-I don't see where racism/discrimination plays into this-if an officer believes he has reason to question an individual-so be it.

Immigration officers at LHR routinely check the baggage of travellers entering Britain from countries such as Jamaica, and many other African & South American countries-this has zero to do with the colour of someone's skin-it is simply because drugs & other contraband are most likely to enter the UK, through LHR, with passengers from those nations.

For the record, I am totally against any form of racism & discrimination, as are most people-and I say let the authorities do their job properly-if there are being blatantly racist/discriminatory/abusive in their approach to certain individuals, they will be brought to book, in due course (as the Metropolitan police force was, here in the UK).

Rgds,
CP

p.s. Johan, if you don't want this thread here anymore, pls could you transfer it to Non.Av? Cheers.

 
Rickster
Posts: 648
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2000 10:47 pm

RE: EU (Schengen) Vs UK

Wed May 30, 2001 8:04 pm

Hepkat,

i know what you mean, but honestly this law you are talking about wich orders EVERYBODY! to carry ID`s here in Austria is in use since a very very long time ago before Austria became member of the EU. This law orders not only foreigners to have ID`s. Also Austrians are ordered to carry ID`s ALL(!) the time. And beeing checked on ID happend to me as well a lots of times, in trains between Germany and Austria, while at Vienna Airport i´ve never been checked on flights within Schengen countries. But when you live here in Vienna you may have realized that especially people with dark skin color have problems with the police here. These problems have been created because of the expanding "drug scene" in some areas wich is well known to be operated by a very high and unknown number of illegal african migrants. So i do understand that you as an african american are deeply frustrated by the fact that because of your skin color you are checked more often then others. I wish it would be different then it is now.
Best regards
Rickster
 
airsicknessbag
Posts: 4626
Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2000 2:45 am

RE: EU (Schengen) Vs UK

Wed May 30, 2001 9:44 pm

>>It's discriminatory because the law requires that all FOREIGNERS carry their passports, not citizens.

I can only comment on the situation in Germany, but, as I said in my earlier post, this is simply not true. Full stop.
Everything else wouldn´t be practicable as well, because everyone could claim "I´m a citizen, but I can´t prove it because as a citizen I don´t need a passport."

>>Furthermore, when the police, or any other agent for that matter, knows you're a foreigner, all sorts of abuse can follow.

Quite to the contrary, the foreigner has the same rights as every citizen plus some more, like assistance by the embassy and the like.

>>I see the issue of freedom differently, we in the U.S. are much freer than our European counterparts.

Are you? So how does having to carry around your passport impair your freedom? What about curfews or not being allowed to consume alcohol in public? Isn´t that part of freedom as well?

Daniel Smile
 
Hepkat
Posts: 2134
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2000 8:22 am

RE: EU (Schengen) Vs UK

Wed May 30, 2001 10:20 pm

Case in point, last weekend a friend and I decided to go to the park during the day as it was so sunny and nice out. We took my car. Immeidately on entering the park (actually it's a canal), my car was surrounded by four cops who demanded that I shut the engine off and show some papers. My friend (who is Austrian) showed his drivers license, and I did the same. The cops accepted that of my white Austrian friend, but blatantly told me mine was not enough, that in addition to my drivers license, I needed to have my passport. Why I asked. Because I'm a foreigner and the law requires all foreigners to have their passports at all times. My Austrian friend didn't need to have his because he was Austrian. When I asked how they knew he was Austrian, I was met with a blank stare.

This is what I'm talking about. The law only pertains to foreigners. If everyone had to show their passports, I wouldn't have cared at all. I ended up having to pay a $20 USD fine.
 
airsicknessbag
Posts: 4626
Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2000 2:45 am

RE: EU (Schengen) Vs UK

Wed May 30, 2001 11:29 pm

Ah, but now you make a completely different point: first you say the law in itself is discriminatory, then, after people (Rickster) tell you it´s not, you claim the police execute it in a discriminatory way.
If the policemen waived the fine for your friend, that doesn´t mean they have to waive it for you as well. You have to carry a decent ID, you didn´t, you get fined - get over it. When I get fined for speeding I don´t say "oh come on, everybody does it, so you can´t fine me alone".
Anyway, why don´t you sue if you feel you were treated badly? I´m sure the Austrian legal system gives you due process concerning police actions via the Administrative Courts.

Daniel Smile

P.S.: I´ve been fined for not having my federal ID with me, in Germany, by German police, even though I´m a German.

P.P.S.: And I still don´t understand why Europe is an unfree country because you have to carry an ID with you.