Arsenal@LHR
Topic Author
Posts: 7510
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 2:55 am

Why No US Airlines In Middle East?

Fri Jun 01, 2001 11:22 pm

Why are there no US carriers in the middles east. As far as i know, on Continental serves Tel aviv and cairo and TWA serves cairo i think (correct me if i'm wrong). But what about places like Bahrain, Riyadh, Dubai, possibly Kuwait aswell. Why doesn't someone like UA, AA or delta serve these cities through a connection in europe like Paris or Frankfurt maybe?

Any ideas?

Regards
Arsenal@LHR
In Arsene we trust!!
 
A330_DTW
Posts: 357
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2000 9:29 am

RE: Why No US Airlines In Middle East?

Fri Jun 01, 2001 11:26 pm

TW did fly to RUH, via CAI, I think.
NW and KL serve every destination in the Middle East: AMM, BEY, CAI, DXB, DOH, SAH...

With all the alliances out there, it makes more economic sense to feed the partner out of Europe and into the Middle East.
 
767-322ETOPS
Posts: 319
Joined: Wed May 30, 2001 9:06 am

RE: Why No US Airlines In Middle East?

Fri Jun 01, 2001 11:41 pm

Delta goes to Tel Aviv and Cairo.
 
Guest

RE: Why No US Airlines In Middle East?

Sat Jun 02, 2001 12:16 am

And we started Dubai as well!
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24521
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: Why No US Airlines In Middle East?

Sat Jun 02, 2001 12:23 am

TWA still flies to Cairo and Riyadah (JFK-CAI-RUH). Delta flies to Tel Aviv and this summer to Cairo and Dubai. Continental flies to Tel Aviv and maybe Cairo. American does not fly to the Middle East but codeshares with Gulf Air on MIA-LHR-BAH (MIA-LHR operated by AA, LHR-BAH buy Gulf).
a.
 
deltairlines
Posts: 6875
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 4:47 am

RE: Why No US Airlines In Middle East?

Sat Jun 02, 2001 4:37 am

Delta starts TLV service today, and CAI and DXB service starts on the 16th, thus making Delta the largest carrier to the Middle East.

Jeff
 
Guest

RE: Why No US Airlines In Middle East?

Sat Jun 02, 2001 4:46 am

I don't believe CO has any service to CAI, but does have 777 service to Israel. Delta began its MD11 Israel service today, and will add the NY to Cairo to Dubai route soon. American will acquire TW's NY to Cairo to Riyadh route in the coming years.

rgds
russ
 
blink182
Posts: 5269
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 1999 3:09 am

RE: Why No US Airlines In Middle East?

Sat Jun 02, 2001 8:51 am

Safety, more than likely, a terrorist will either shoot or put a bomb in the cargo hold of a North American airliner. It is too risky safety wise.
rgds,
blink182
Give me a break, I created this username when I was a kid...
 
American_4275
Posts: 1001
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 1999 1:11 am

Blink182

Sat Jun 02, 2001 8:59 am

Blink182,

I found that comment of yours extremely offensive and I think you should have more common sense than that. It's also totally false and personally I don't appreciate the fact that you're pulling things out of no where just because you've seen too many movies. My family happens to be from the Middle East and would never touch a bomb or gun. We're not all terrorists. Next time mind your words.

American_4275
 
chepos
Posts: 5932
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2000 9:40 am

RE: Why No US Airlines In Middle East?

Sat Jun 02, 2001 9:04 am

Blink 182 thats a very ignorant comment. Thats a very close minded statement you just made. Arab people happen to be very hospitable and friendly .
Chepos
Puerto Rico
Fly the Flag!!!!
 
ishky15
Posts: 706
Joined: Tue May 30, 2000 12:02 am

RE: Why No US Airlines In Middle East?

Sat Jun 02, 2001 9:15 am

American will axe TWA's service to Tel Aviv when they acquire the miserable airline, and Cairo might be on the chopping block as well. Delta begins daily MD-11 service from New York to Tel Aviv and Cairo, continuing on to Dubai. Continental used to fly double daily 777 service to TLV but dropped the early evening flight from EWR. That flight will most likely reappear when market conditions warrant. They are also looking very closely at services to Cairo, and 767-400ER service would not be a surprise over the next five years.
 
chepos
Posts: 5932
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2000 9:40 am

RE: Why No US Airlines In Middle East?

Sat Jun 02, 2001 9:15 am

I also forgot to mention that Arab women are beautiful .
Chepos
Puerto Rico
Fly the Flag!!!!
 
American_4275
Posts: 1001
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 1999 1:11 am

Chepos

Sat Jun 02, 2001 9:21 am

You have good taste my friend.

 Laugh out loud

American_4275
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24521
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: Why No US Airlines In Middle East?

Sat Jun 02, 2001 11:38 am

Ishky, currently, American Airlines has no plans to axe JFK-CAI-RUH. In fact, they realsed a press realease stating that they will not discontinue the popular flight handled by TW. Also, we forgot to mention that DL flies JFK-IST daily, though, technically, Istanbul is more Europe than the Middle East. AA codeshares with Turkish on MIA-IST, JFK-IST, and ORD-IST (14 flights a week between TK's three US destinations; 7x JFK, and 7x ORD/MIA depending on season (MIA is 3x during winter, 2x during summer)). As for new Middle Eastern routes, well, there isn't much. The biggest destination is TLV, and that market is pretty well served. Problem is, all the service is from JFK*! Why? How about AA starting thrice-weekly 777-200 service on MIA-TLV or ORD-TLV? They would have the market practically to themselves (though LY flies both MIA-TLV and ORD-TLV, but both via JFK), and they have the connections. Miami has America's second largest Jewish population and America's wealthiest Jewish population as well, plus, AA has no presence what so ever in Isreal (they had plans, what happened?). At ORD, AA would have strong connecting and O&D traffic, especially connecting traffic from the West. At MIA, the flight could practically survive on O&D alone, but there are also the connections it could get from Buenos Aires, with one of the world's largest Jewish populations (and there is still no non-stop service between EZE and TLV, nor any other Latin city, if I'm not mistaken). I think DL has some big plans for the Middle East if everything works with JFK-TLV and JFK-CAI-DXB. But why the MD11? I love the MD11, but a 772 would be better fit.
a.
 
watewate
Posts: 2216
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2000 6:00 am

American_4275, Chepos

Sat Jun 02, 2001 12:28 pm

American_4275, Chepos,

Blink182 may have worded it a little bit too harshly, but he does make a valid point. US State Department forbids American carriers from flying into many Middle East nations due to uncertainty of security standards in the region. Don't take it the wrong way- no one's saying that all Arabs are terrorists.

Consider this warning from US State Department on travel to Lebanon;
"American air carriers are prohibited from use of Beirut International Airport (BIA) due to continuing concern about airport and aircraft security arrangements."
http://travel.state.gov/travel_warnings.html
 
baec777
Posts: 1232
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 1999 5:01 am

RE: Why No US Airlines In Middle East?

Sat Jun 02, 2001 12:40 pm

Continental, Delta & TWA are 3 only US carriers that flies to Israel... Not sure why no other countries not getting any US Carrier to fly there... ! I am wishing American, United, & NWA should fly to Israel, and other countries like Jordan, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, etc..

Baec777  Smokin cool
 
hisham
Posts: 681
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 1999 11:32 pm

RE: Why No US Airlines In Middle East?

Sat Jun 02, 2001 1:46 pm

Security at Beirut airport is as good as any place else. Actually, the extent of the security checks is really annoying. Only passengers can get to check-in area. They are checked before getting there. Then they are checked again before clearing customs. In both cases, they have very modern x-ray machines.
There hasn't been a single security incident for at least 10 years.

Hisham.
 
Guest

Hmm...

Sat Jun 02, 2001 3:17 pm

Imagine for a moment an American 777-200 landing at Beirut airport. The large AMERICAN titles, with the American flag and eagle on the tail would be an absolute joke. It would definetely not be a welcomed sight. I know its 2001, but the US is still seen as many county's nemisis. TWA and Pan Am would get away with flying to exotic, stereotypically terrorist-friendly regions like Algiers, Lebanon, Iran and the like. These airlines were global carriers and not seen as flag carriers. Today, American is seen as the flag carrier just because of what it looks like. People see the flag, the silver, the eagle and it represents everything United States. Some places just aren't ready for that yet.
 
Guest

RE: Why No US Airlines In Middle East?

Sat Jun 02, 2001 9:53 pm

I would imagine that part of the problem is that more conservative Arab countries such as Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, etc...do not allow women to wander around without covering many parts of their bodies. Women WILL be arrested on site if they are seen breaking one of these laws. Therefore US carriers probably would not want the added stress of having to train their FAs in Arab customs (or using only males, which would be agaisnt the law in the US) just so they won't be arrested. My mom, a TWA FA, is going to Cairo next week, and they don't usually get off the plane for the CAI-RUH segment. But if they get stuck there, the women have to wear veils upon leaving the hotel. Just not worth the aggravation I suppose. Plus, to be honest, most americans don't really see the Middle East as a vacation spot, and there are plenty of Middle Eastern carriers to handle the Business demand (TLV, CAI aside).
 
Guest

RE: Why No US Airlines In Middle East?

Sun Jun 03, 2001 1:31 am

While, Blink182's comment was a little harsh and far-reaching, one must remember that the region harbors strong strong anti-American sentinment.

Khobar Towers, TWA hijacking, Beiruit Marine barracks, Pan Am 103, World Trade Center, Aden Harbor, German disco.....the list is endless

Sadly, there is really a very poor relationship between many Arab countries and a country commonly reffered to as the "Great Satan", the US.

Perhaps, because of the US' support and recognition of Israel, but whatever the reason may be, the middle east and the US still have very cool relations.

PS: Arab women are beautiful and Emirates' uniform is the finest I've ever seen.

rgds
russ
 
Pe@rson
Posts: 16001
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:29 pm

RE: Why No US Airlines In Middle East?

Sun Jun 03, 2001 1:56 am

A few years ago, GF used to operate from the Gulf (AUH, BAH and I believe DOH) to JFK via LCA and on particular flights continuing to IAH. All these flights were operated by the 340. Does anyone know if any such flights are to resume and if so is it likely that an American airline would operate the flights?
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
chepos
Posts: 5932
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2000 9:40 am

RE: Why No US Airlines In Middle East?

Sun Jun 03, 2001 2:51 am

R.I.P TWA I was talking to a TWA f/a that had gone on the CAI-RUH segment and in Cairo some women dont wear Hijaabs. She was allowed to to walk around the streets of Cairo Hijaab less and without a problem . She really liked Egypt and thought of it as a wonderfull country. Saudi Arabia is another story, that is strict and women are ordered to wear Hijaab and a great deal of them wear Burqa's . And going on to Kuwait , Kuwait is strict but women in Kuwait arent ordered to wear veil , I have a classmate that happens to be a girl and from Kuwait and she tells me that she didnt use a veil back in Kuwait, and that she really enjoyed living in Kuwait. Actually the Kuwait Airways f/a uniform isnt really conservative at all compared to those of SV or Iran Air.
Chepos
Puerto Rico
Fly the Flag!!!!
 
hisham
Posts: 681
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 1999 11:32 pm

RE: Why No US Airlines In Middle East?

Sun Jun 03, 2001 2:54 am

Sju-lax you're an ignorant idiot. I guess you're imagining crowds getting angry and running towards the aircraft with an American flag to destroy it, millions and millions of them. But if there is no flag they won't notice, right?

I'm not even going to try to prove you're wrong. Your imagination is much more powerful than my arguments.

Hisham.

 
ILOVEA340
Posts: 2064
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 1999 9:49 am

Dubai Delta?

Sun Jun 03, 2001 4:19 am

when did this start? how often 763?
 
Guest

RE: Why No US Airlines In Middle East?

Sun Jun 03, 2001 5:04 am

R.I.P. TWA,

I hardly think it is that much of a big deal for FA's to have to wear hebayas/veils etc.

The FA's of BA & all the other European carriers that serve RUH, don't make such a big deal about it-because it isn't.

I am not surprised that "US carriers probably would not want the added stress of having to train their FAs in Arab customs", given US airlines don't seem to have much in the way of "service".

Is it that difficult to train FA's to have good manners?  Insane

There are many American women living in Riyadh-they go shopping, they go to the movies & they generally have a good time-they must place their hebayas on before going out-but it's no big deal.

I'm not trying to get at you, but some people sometimes make a big deal out of nothing-they are not difficult laws to abide by-and that's coming from me, who thinks all religions are fairy-tales.

BTW, even I have to wear trousers  Insane Big grin

Rgds,
CP

 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: Why No US Airlines In Middle East?

Sun Jun 03, 2001 5:25 am

I think that we are getting a bit off-base here; the airlines and airports are capable of handling high-security situations; if you ever travel between the US or Europe and Israel you understand how careful the airlines can be if needed. Also, US airlines could certainly advise their crews of Arab customs and manners, us crews on flights to the far east and japan know how to behave, so why is it not possible on flights to the middle-east.

I think it is a simple matter of economics. The destinations we are talking about in the middle east are very, very far from the usa - these are long, thin routes that must be flown with the latest technology aircraft. I think we will see new service between the usa and serveral of the middle east cities mentioned, but not until the airlines are convinced that there is adequate demand.

Also remember many people travelling between these 2 parts of the world enjoy stopping over in Europe for a few days enroute, its breaks the journey and many times the pax have family members in Europe or just want to shop and relax. BA transports many, many people between the US and the Gulf States via London; so an airline will face direct and indirect competition when flying these routes.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 3619
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

RE: Why No US Airlines In Middle East?

Sun Jun 03, 2001 5:35 am

Delta has just begun flights to Tel Aviv, Cairo, and Dubai from JFK, all with MD-11 aircraft. Continental
flies daily from Newark to Tel Aviv and TWA still
flies JFK-CAI-RUH and American Airlines has said it
will continue this route.

I think the reason that there are not more flights
to the Middle East is that these destinations are
all well covered, if even over-served from most of
the major European airlines, with whom most US
airlines have a code-share/alliance with.

I also don't think the Middle East is too profitable.
El Al is reporting losses and is cutting back. The
remainder of the region is not a focus area for US
carriers. Security concerns and possibly high costs
are one source.

ContinentalEWR
 
clipperhawaii
Posts: 1943
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 1999 3:35 pm

RE: Why No US Airlines In Middle East?

Sun Jun 03, 2001 6:21 am

The sad fact is that flying to Middle Eastern Countries remains a "calculated risk" for all American Flag Carriers. Just ask any Director of Flight Op's at any Major U.S. carrier. There has and will be great challenges for any aircraft and crew to fly scheduled services to several countries throughout the region. This says only one thing, that the risk for property, aircrew, and passengers remains, and the risk is just a tad bit too much for some carriers to absorb. Just ask Lloyd's of London and any other Insurance carrier that has a rider on specific policies. Safety first! ClipperHawaii
"You Can't Beat The Experience"
 
KWI
Posts: 157
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2000 4:14 am

RE: R.I.P TWA

Sun Jun 03, 2001 7:56 am

hi all,
R.I.P TWA stated that women in Kuwait had to cover themselves whenever they are outdoors. i would like to clarify that that is NOT ture. women in Kuwait can walk in little micro-mini skirts if they wanted to. Women in Kuwait are regarded by the other Gulf Countries as the most modernised and independant. Bahrain is Kuwait's closest "sister".

Please do not give out false information.

 Smile

P.S. i think that in the late eighties TWA used to fly into Kuwait. if i am not mistaken, the routing was JFK-LHR-KWI.

KWI
 
Guest

RE: Why No US Airlines In Middle East?

Sun Jun 03, 2001 9:36 am

Qatar too. I believe Qatar is fairly progressive in regards to how women are treated etc....

In fact, my school, Cornell, is opening a branch its medical school in Qatar. Cornell's medical school is named for a wealthy philanthropist named Sanford Weill as in Weill Cornell Medical College.

Whats funny, is that the Qatari school will be called Weill Cornell Medical College, even though Sanford Weill is a strong Jewish supporter of Israel, a state Qatar does not recognise!

kind regards
russ
 
passenger
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 5:14 pm

RE: Why No US Airlines In Middle East?

Sun Jun 03, 2001 1:14 pm

LOL because a big silver plane with the world AMERICAN painted on the side of it is like having the words BLOW ME UP NOW plastered on it. Any U.S. airline to the Middle East is a target more than any other country. HELLO????
 
tupolev154b2
Posts: 1269
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2000 9:01 am

RE: Why No US Airlines In Middle East?

Sun Jun 03, 2001 1:58 pm

Given the strong anti-American sentiment among Arabs, I believe that the risks are too high...
 
VirginA340
Posts: 2556
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:35 pm

RE: Why No US Airlines In Middle East?

Sun Jun 03, 2001 2:14 pm

PAN AM was a target in the middle east becuase of the words PAN AM were on the fusalage. Remmeber that even though the anti american sentamate is quite small from what it was before it could get dangerous if a 777 with the words AMERICAN in big block letters show up there. If it were a neutral airline like CO, NWA, DELTA thewn I suppose they have a chance to get it since they are not viewed as an american flag carrier.
"FUIMUS"
 
airmale
Posts: 7125
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 4:48 pm

RE: Why No US Airlines In Middle East?

Sun Jun 03, 2001 3:07 pm

Pan Am used to fly to Istanbul,Tehran and Riyadh, while TWA served Kuwait and/or Bahrain Smile
.....up there with the best!
 
kevin
Posts: 1015
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2000 5:03 am

RE: Why No US Airlines In Middle East?

Sun Jun 03, 2001 3:25 pm

KWI:
I do not think so! I have been to Kuwait I know. A woman wearing micro mini skirt in Kuwait would be directly caught by police or security services or stabbbed to death by a furious crowd who would consider her as a "sharmouta" prostitute or "shaytan" evil. And do not post a comment "Kevin you are an idiot think before you write ...." . Once again I say that I have been there , I have lotsa friends from there I KNOW!
Security reasons is the answer to the topic. Most of the European air carriers serve Beirut at night for security reasons (it's harder to aim). The second reason is that almost all of the American air carrriers have partners in Europe with latter having an extensive Middle Eastern network.
 
Guest

RE: Why No US Airlines In Middle East?

Sun Jun 03, 2001 8:55 pm

Dutchjet- Never said it was a big deal to have to dress in a certain way, but companies, especially airlines, have to insure against everything. Can you imagine the lawsuit of a woman's family against the airline she was working for when she was arrested for showing too much knee? May sound ridiculous, but here in the US everybody sues everyone else, and I don't think too many insurance companies would like to insure against this, owing to the fact that foreign women DO get arrested over there.

Clipperhawaii- Didn't say CAI. Only RUH. My mom loves Cairo, I've been there and they are probably the most liberal arab state in the region (along with Trukey). Never a problem there as far as breaking dress-code laws. Only in mosques.

KWI- I retract my inclusion of Kuwait, and restate that the only country of the two I am sure of, (that has these laws) is Saudi Arabia.

Airmale- And TWA flew FRA-IST as well. I flew it in 91. Great scenery along the way. Big bellowing cloud of pollution over Romania, I remember it vividly.

And lastly, I will add that my most important point, besides the small technical ones, is that there is litte desire among americans to vacation in the Middle East. Not because it's dangerous, not because they don't "like" us, just because it's far away and quite honestly americans are mostly ignorant of anywhere farther east than Europe, and farther west than Japan. (CAI, and TLV aside).