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LAX
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Do You Feel Safe Aboard An Etops Flight?

Sun Jun 03, 2001 8:03 am

Does it worry you being so far from land in just a 2-engined jetliner?

Was just curious as to whether anyone who does a lot of ETOPS flying ever has had second thoughts about boarding?

Thanks.

 
dutchjet
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RE: Do You Feel Safe Aboard An Etops Flight?

Sun Jun 03, 2001 8:04 am

Yes.
 
IFlyADesk
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RE: Do You Feel Safe Aboard An Etops Flight?

Sun Jun 03, 2001 8:07 am

North Atlantic, yes. South Pacific, no.
 
ben88
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RE: Do You Feel Safe Aboard An Etops Flight?

Sun Jun 03, 2001 8:08 am

Many of people's worries are caused by ignorance. (no offense to anyone) Next time you fly on an ETOPS flight ask one of the crew members to show you the enroute ETOPS map and that alone should calm your fears quite a bit. ETOPS flights are more closely scrutinized than non-ETOPS and I would rather fly on a twin than a quad from a safety standpoint.
 
A330/B777
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RE: Do You Feel Safe Aboard An Etops Flight?

Sun Jun 03, 2001 8:11 am

I would and do feel perfectly fine flying a twin-engine across the Atlantic, but would not feel so fine flying one across the Pacific. No real reason, just my gut telling me how to feel I guess.
 
BlatantEcho
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RE: Do You Feel Safe Aboard An Etops Flight?

Sun Jun 03, 2001 8:12 am

I would prefer to be on a twin on any long range flight. Over water, land, whatever.

BlatantEcho
They're not handing trophies out today
 
Ruscoe
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RE: Do You Feel Safe Aboard An Etops Flight?

Sun Jun 03, 2001 8:23 am

No. Twin has half the chance of a failure.
Ruscoe
 
avion
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RE: Do You Feel Safe Aboard An Etops Flight?

Sun Jun 03, 2001 8:26 am

I would feel better on a quad. However being in a twin is no problem for me.

I still think that quads are better suited to transoceanic crossings.

Tom
 
deltairlines
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RE: Do You Feel Safe Aboard An Etops Flight?

Sun Jun 03, 2001 8:29 am

I feel same crossing the pond in a twin. The ETOPS maps show that Gander, KEF, and SNN are going to be within range throughout the flight.

Jeff
 
Mac
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RE: Do You Feel Safe Aboard An Etops Flight?

Sun Jun 03, 2001 8:35 am



Four or more for me across any large body of water...along with all the booze I can buy to put me in
Winken, Blinken and Nod land for the duration of the flight.
 
Gregg
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RE: Do You Feel Safe Aboard An Etops Flight?

Sun Jun 03, 2001 8:39 am

Twins are very safe. They have even more safety equipment (even some not related to having only 2 engines) then non-etops flights. They are very safe. I'll take a twin anyday.
 
IFlyADesk
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It Isn't Just The Ocean

Sun Jun 03, 2001 9:01 am

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is that ETOPS flights are not only restricted to overwater flights. With the recent hooplah of Polar routes, many of these flight plans are over Siberia. Without an appropriate place to divert (in the event of an emergency), Siberia might as well be an ocean.

Divert points such as Anadyr, Norilsk, Novosibirsk, Krasnoyarsk, and Tiksi, et al are vital. However, just because the airports are there does not mean that they are suitable enroute alternates. An airline MUST keep in mind the status of these airports. Are they open 24-hours a day? Do they have instrument approaches that are reliable? Are they equipped for CFR? Do they have NOTAMs and/or snow removal?

ETOPS DOES NOT apply to just overwater routes...
 
ILOVEA340
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RE: Do You Feel Safe Aboard An Etops Flight?

Sun Jun 03, 2001 9:05 am

I have never been scared in any planes at any time. Even when our engine cut in our piper. ETOPS is the certification that it is safe for this plane to fly this route so why worry.
 
Guest

RE: Do You Feel Safe Aboard An Etops Flight?

Sun Jun 03, 2001 9:11 am

ETOPS flights are extremely safe. I can assure you that ETOPS operations are carefully examined, and maintenance procedures are much more stringent than for regular flights. The extremely low failure rates for ETOPS flights that have been analyzed for a decade now show that this program is extremely safe. As an interesting sidenote, I've recently learned that the FAA will be adding regulations to raise the requirements for overwater flights on quads shortly.
 
D L X
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Read This

Sun Jun 03, 2001 9:26 am

Pilot Mark Rogers, an A320 FO for United Airlines talks about why 2 are better than 4.


http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&ic=1&selm=an_450597440

(Not like this topic hasn't been discussed to death already, and not like people will let their emotion give way to logic...)
 
atct
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RE: Do You Feel Safe Aboard An Etops Flight?

Sun Jun 03, 2001 9:27 am

Think, The More engines, the More to go wrong  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Trikes are for kids!
 
lax2000
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RE: Do You Feel Safe Aboard An Etops Flight?

Sun Jun 03, 2001 9:54 am

767s and 757s seem to have a better safety record etops or no etops than 747's or DC-10's and for sure md11's anyway. So I actually feel just as safe or safer going from LA to Hawawii on a 757 or 767 than I do on a 747-100 or 200 or DC10. The 767 and 757 probably have had the least problems of any plane in the last 30 years. So far the 777 and A330 have also proven to be very safe. Besides how many commercial aviation crashes can you name that happened from losing engines over the ocean, or land for that matter in the last 30 years.
 
philb
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RE: Do You Feel Safe Aboard An Etops Flight?

Sun Jun 03, 2001 9:55 am

IFlyADesk has raised a good issue, some of the diversion airfields are "iffy", especially in winter.

I know all the plus points of the extra scrutiny of ETOPS twins. I know the engine failure rate, the extra fire protection and know that there are now few routes under the 180 minute rule that only quads can fly.

But I also think of it this way, and I've posted this before:

Would you buy a ticket from an airline which stated you will fly with 200+ other souls and may, just, have the chance to be on a single engined jetliner for up to 3 hours 27 minutes over water, polar ice cap or desert?
 
767-332ER
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RE: Do You Feel Safe Aboard An Etops Flight?

Sun Jun 03, 2001 10:32 am


I have done it many times and I am doing it once more this tuesday, so I feel very safe onboard a 763ER or a 777 or an A330 crossing the Atlantic or even the Pacific.
Twinjets...if one fails, work the other one twice as hard!!!
 
YoungDon
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RE: Do You Feel Safe Aboard An Etops Flight?

Sun Jun 03, 2001 11:45 am

Some people responding to this question are looking at it from, IMHO, a very shallow point of view. Saying things such as 'twice as many engines means twice as much to go wrong'.

There is one main reason that I feel slightly safer on quads or trijets on long routes. (I still feel quite safe on twins, don't get me wrong.) It is simply not true that the extra engines on quads or trijets means that there is more to go wrong. Here's why:

In all commonly used jet engines used on long range planes (think CFM56, CF6, RB211, Trent, GE90, JT9D, PW4000, etc.) the likelyhood that an engine will inexplicably fail (due to internal engine factors) is basically the same. This basically means that you have the same chance of having one engine fail on a quad, trijet, or twin. Now the question is, which would you rather be on if one engine was to fail? Think about it.
 
QantasA3XX
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RE: Do You Feel Safe Aboard An Etops Flight?

Sun Jun 03, 2001 11:55 am

Well , yeah its safe why not . Boeing and Airbus are very reliable , chances of engine failure are low depends on which airlines and how they maintained their planes . Personally , i be worried if theres an engine failure , but i trust the pilot to land the plane safely with ETOPS certified to the twin- engine .

Cheers
QantasA380
 
IFlyADesk
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RE: Do You Feel Safe Aboard An Etops Flight?

Sun Jun 03, 2001 11:55 am

That reminds me of back when I used to fly small Cessnas. My best friend would never fly with me because he didn't like the idea of flying in a single-engine airplane, and he insisted on flying in a twin at best (which he later did).

My argument was that with a single-engine aircraft (versus a twin), there was a 50% LESS chance of losing an engine. He never had a good retort to that logic...
 
Arch89U
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RE: Do You Feel Safe Aboard An Etops Flight?

Sun Jun 03, 2001 12:37 pm

ETOPS flights are safe. Thats like saying I don't feel safe in a single engine aircraft that I've preflighted yourself. I feel safe, and I know there's someone doing more than a simple preflight for this flight, and I feel perfectly safe.

I need to go to bed, sorry about the jumbled explanation,

Arch89U
 
baec777
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RE: Do You Feel Safe Aboard An Etops Flight?

Sun Jun 03, 2001 12:47 pm

I haven't yet flown any twin engines (ETOPs) at all...

Maybe this summer I will fly to middle east using AA777 to Paris.. then AF to Jordan... are A340 ETOPs certified..?

Baec777  Smokin cool
 
TWA717_200
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RE: Do You Feel Safe Aboard An Etops Flight?

Sun Jun 03, 2001 12:49 pm

Yes, I would feel safe. However, all of my overwater flights have been on trijets.
 
Guest

RE: Do You Feel Safe Aboard An Etops Flight?

Sun Jun 03, 2001 12:53 pm

Nope.....I feel right at home flying anywhere on any newer aircraft(1985 +). For example I would be a little anxious about flying a 747-200 accross the atlantic or pacific while not on the -300 or -400 version. The reason is simple; things(and people) deteriate over time and unseen things such as gaskets, wires, fuel lines are all prone to failure.
 
Hepkat
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RE: Do You Feel Safe Aboard An Etops Flight?

Sun Jun 03, 2001 1:31 pm

We are forgetting that it doesn't matter whether an ETOPS twin flies over land or sea, it's still only 2-3 hours away from a suitable diversion airport. That's why it's called ETOPS. So, whether you're flying over the Atlantic, Pacific, or the U.S. mainland, the risk is equally the same should somthing go wrong. I never feel afraid flying ETOPS, and I've done it many times. I guess when you know what's really going on behind the scenes, all the fear just goes away. I arm myself with knowledge.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Do You Feel Safe Aboard An Etops Flight?

Sun Jun 03, 2001 1:37 pm

I think people have nothing to worry about in regards to ETOPS certification.

Remember, ETOPS is more than just very high reliability of engines, hydraulics and electrical systems on the twin-engine jet; it's also very stringent ground maintainance procedures to ensure thats the airplane systems meet the high reliability standards all the time.

That's the reason why I've never heard of any 757, 767, 777, A300-600R or A330 plane forced to make a diversionary landing due to engine failure after reaching the cruise phase of the flight.
 
An-225
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RE: Do You Feel Safe Aboard An Etops Flight?

Sun Jun 03, 2001 1:41 pm

I don't have any second thoughts. Hell, I'd board An-2 across the Pacific if I had a chance.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Money does not bring you happiness. But it's better to cry in your own private limo than on a cold bus stop.
 
ILOVEA340
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RE: Do You Feel Safe Aboard An Etops Flight?

Sun Jun 03, 2001 1:47 pm

We are planning on planning a flight in a Europa (1100 nm range @ 180 Knots 2 seats rotax 914 engine, single engine on 28 gallons of fuel) from the usa to europe via canada, greenland and iceland. Wether we ever do it is still to be decided but I would have no problems doing it.
 
philb
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RE: Do You Feel Safe Aboard An Etops Flight?

Sun Jun 03, 2001 5:09 pm

RayChuang,

Delta B767 ex Manchester diverted off the ocean into SNN, at least one Aer Lingus A330 landed minus 1 engine at SNN off the ocean and there have been others on the Atlantic.

You are right, of course, that most of the problems make themselves apparent during the take off/climb phase but you can get an uncontained blade failure at any time and that means an engine shutdown and, almost inevitably, system damage.

That's when quad redundancy really kids in against the twins.
 
Gregg
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RE: Do You Feel Safe Aboard An Etops Flight?

Sun Jun 03, 2001 5:33 pm

PhillB,
Your comment:

"...You are right, of course, that most of the problems make themselves apparent during the take off/climb phase but you can get an uncontained blade failure at any time and that means an engine shutdown and, almost inevitably, system damage.

That's when quad redundancy really kids in against the twins. "

So twins are safer? less chance of an engine failure that will cause system damage?
 
gerardo
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RE: Do You Feel Safe Aboard An Etops Flight?

Sun Jun 03, 2001 7:11 pm

Statistics here and there, but my feeling says, that four engines are safer than two.

Gerardo
dominguez(dash)online(dot)ch ... Pushing the limits of my equipment
 
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LAX
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RE: Do You Feel Safe Aboard An Etops Flight?

Mon Jun 04, 2001 9:42 pm

I think I feel somewhat safer in a 3 or 4-engined craft....rather than just 2.

But, from the statistics I've read concerning the incredible performance of the engines on the Boeing 777, I think I'd feel pretty safe on a triple-7, too!!

I can't remember the exact data......but it was something like: expect an engine failure on a 777 every xx,xxx hours (some very high hours #)!

Anybody know this 777 data on engine reliability?
 
bobnwa
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RE: Do You Feel Safe Aboard An Etops Flight?

Mon Jun 04, 2001 10:29 pm

I have a question for those who say they prefer a twin engine over a four engine because thy only have half the chance for an engine failure. Would you prefer a single engine over water because it only has one quarter the chance for engine failure. The odds of a single engine failing in flight are the same regardless of how many engines the aircraft has.

Wouldn't you rather have three engines left than just one when this occured?
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Do You Feel Safe Aboard An Etops Flight?

Mon Jun 04, 2001 11:08 pm

Bobnwa,

If the engines on the 747-400 were maintained to the same strict criteria required for ETOPS-certified planes, then you have a point.

However, ETOPS certification requires very strict reliability criteria on both the plane and the ground maintainance, so that's why airlines like CO can fly EWR-HKG safely on a 777-200ER. And UA flies JFK-NRT with 772ER's, too.
 
virgin744
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Just Got Back Yesterday Flying 777

Mon Jun 04, 2001 11:40 pm

I have just got back from a trip to the US yesterday and I flew on a AA 777.
For the first time in 23years flying on planes, I was scared. But that could be due to things other than the plane.
1. It was my first time flying to the US.
2. Never been transatlantic (Canada etc.)
3. Flying on a Super 80 (Ergh)
4. Flying when the weather is not great.
5. Strange things happening to me and witnessing things i wouldnt like to witness before a plane trip....HOWEVER..The one thing I looked forward to when flying in and out was that 777! I looked into the specs and it comforted my greatly when I read how difficult it was to be classified as an ETOPS plane. I was also noting the path we took on the map on my PTV and also noticed that we never take stright lines across the ocean hence going close to Greenland so that in an emergency the plane will never be called upon to fly for 2hrs on a single engine. So I was real pleased seeing a 777 waiting for me at ORD coming home as I knew I was in SAFE hands  Smile/happy/getting dizzy)

I wasnt so sure flying AA's Super 80 nor was I over-the-moon flying on a B737-200 & a -300 (especially on one flight where I was seated next to a captain gloating about how he had just flown the A319 their airline got delivered and how crap the B737 was compaired to that!) But that said I was quite impressed with the super 80 as it was a nice ride but the legroom SUCKS on those small planes, which is why I was doubly glad to see the 777 especially that AA are boasting that they have the biggest amount of legroom in coach! Though their service was crap and if I had the choice would not fly them again for a long time.

2 thumbs up from me! 777 all the way.

virgin744
 
turbulence
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RE: Do You Feel Safe Aboard An Etops Flight?

Tue Jun 05, 2001 12:42 am

to be honest I was not going to write anything, since everything that can be said has been said in any possible ways.
Also, because all my transatlantic flights have beeen on triple thrusters (one round on Delta's L11 and five on VASP's M11s) and I do not feel any discomfort because next one is going to be on TAP 310 or on TransBrasil 762. More to the opposite way, I feel very excited about the possibility of flying one leg on TAM's 330 and the other on Air France's 772, thanks to AF-JJ twice a day code shared flights (one of each company with two hours difference every night). The 330 and the 777 are airplanes I don't have the pleasure to have met, yet.

I decided to write when I saw that people argument insustainable opinions.
FP_v2: what do you mean with "unseen things"? Do you have any idea of how the manteinance is held?

Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Jose Francisco Gouvea V. Filho


Will you believe me if I tell you that there are no unseen parts at all? Will you believe me if I tell you that the wirings are not only seen but checked both electrically AND MAGNETICALLY with instruments that detect the minimum variations in electric conductivity and electro-magnetic shieldings?

Please do not write nonsense...

Best turbulences.
 
GOT
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RE: Do You Feel Safe Aboard An Etops Flight?

Tue Jun 05, 2001 12:59 am

I always feel safe in an aircraft, whether it has two, three or four engines. As long as I can hear the sound from the engines, I don't care how many they are Smile.

GOT
Just like birdwatching - without having to be so damned quiet!
 
Guest

RE: Do You Feel Safe Aboard An Etops Flight?

Tue Jun 05, 2001 3:20 am

IFlyadesk/PhilB,

Your logic about flying over Siberia is flawed, you talk about the availability of enroute airports. The twin may not be allowed to fly the route because of the lack of enroute airports, but the quad isnt required to account for them.

Therefore if you are sitting in a quad that has a combined engine failure / depressurization, where are you going to land?
 
wannabe
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RE: Do You Feel Safe Aboard An Etops Flight?

Tue Jun 05, 2001 3:54 am

In all the years that twins have been flying across the oceans, how many succesful trips have there been and how many trips have ended in disaster due to an engine failure? I don't know what the first answer is, I don't know if anyone does. But I am quite sure the the answer to my second question is 0, zero, zip, nada. So is four or three engines better than two on ETOPS flights? In theory the statistics would say yes, but in reality they appear to be the same.
 
airplanetire
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RE: Do You Feel Safe Aboard An Etops Flight?

Tue Jun 05, 2001 6:16 am

I have never thought about it that much so it does not bother me. I will be flying to Zurich from Atlanta next week on a Swissair A330 and I am more excited about that flight than any other I have been on.
 
BlueJet
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RE: Do You Feel Safe Aboard An Etops Flight?

Tue Jun 05, 2001 6:38 am

Nothings gonna happen! I dont really care what I get, I just have to get to the destination.
 
EGGD
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RE: Do You Feel Safe Aboard An Etops Flight?

Tue Jun 05, 2001 8:42 am

ok guys, here is my intellectual insight into this discussion.

Firstly, i feel safe in whatever aircraft i am flying in, whether its a Boeing B747-400 or a Dash 8, they are all the same to me.

IFlyADesk and Phil B, you brought to our attention that an ETOPs flight is not necassarily over water but also over an isolated area. But this is not strictly true. Yes, you are still flying over large unpopulated area's, but imagine this situation:

Two aircraft, an A330 and an A340 (lets say these because they are structually the same) set off from London's Heathrow bound for say, Singapore Changi. They are flying the new route over deepest siberia, suddenly, two engines fail on each. The A340 is able to fly on, albeit a little slow, to the nearest airport. The A330 has to land, although the aircraft can obtain a efficient glidepath. Considering there is no Hydraulic failure (Control Surfaces, Landing Gear etc) the aircaft, should be able to find a sufficient area of flat land (especially in Siberia) within a radius of say 50m (although it takes 100m to descend from FL350), the aircraft can carry out a, by no means safe landing but one without complete carnage etc.

Even if passengers are injured, there is flat land to sit on. Think about if this had happened at see? The aircraft would not be able to touch down successfully, and would probably break up. The injured, are stuck in the water, they are possibly more injured than on land and maybe even dead. In relivity, the sea is probably just as cold as Siberia, remember the Aircraft will have sunk, so there is no chance of obtaining warm clothing blankets etc from the a/c.

If you can see what i mean, ETOP's is safer over the ground than the sea, but still a danger.

Also another point that people are missing is that, (using the A330/A340 as an example once again) most problems occur on Takeoff or Landing anyway, and would happen to an ETOP's or non-ETOP's aircraft regardless. Rarely does an engine fail in mid flight miles from land.

Here are some more examples:

Hydraulics failure, the aircraft can't reach the runway because it can't turn, gain altitude etc. This occurs on any type of aircraft.

Pilot error, likely to happen on either type of aircraft

Bird Strike, Everybodys in the same boat, although more engines means less chance of all being disabled

Weather, once again does not matter what type.

Bomb, Ditto

So as you can see once again, most life endangering problems happen to all aircraft, and so you are just as safe in an ETOP's as in any other aircaft

What is the percentage of aircraft that have Un-survivable malfunctions onboard in cruise? Very little i'd say, and even then hardly any would be to do with the engines.

ETOP's aircraft are certified to fly on 1 engine, and the chances of both failing are limited. Even if they do, the chances are you will have more problems than just that if BOTH fail.

EGGD  Smile
 
srbmod
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RE: Do You Feel Safe Aboard An Etops Flight?

Wed Jun 06, 2001 7:03 am

With the reliability of today's aircraft engines, ETOPS flights are as commonplace as crossing the street. Even though the chances of a single engine failing are very small (<4%), and the chance of both engines failing extremely small (<1%), I would personally feel more comfortable flying in an aircraft with either 3 or 4 engines, just for that extra measure of safety in my own mind. I know ETOPS flights are as safe any other flight, but would feel a little more secure in the fact that there's more than two engines on the plane just in case anything may go pear-shaped. Nearly all of Delta's transatlantic flights are ETOPS flights, with only a few flights being handled by MD-11s. Continental is the same way, and U.S. Airways has always done ETOPS flights to Europe. The majority of transatlantic flights are flown by twin engine aircraft (767, 777, 757!, and A330), with 747s, MD-11s and A340s be used less and less on transatlantic routes. As for transpacific ETOPS, that distance seems a little bit too much to do ETOPS flights with a certain amount of safety. And flights over Siberia have been questioned by the actual conditions and amenities available for a dirversion at most of the airports in Siberia.
 
D L X
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BAD Stats!

Sat Jun 09, 2001 6:22 pm

You know,
I see a lot of BAD STATISTICS going on here.  Smile

People have correctly noted that the chance of a particular engine failing is about the same whether it has 1 friend or 3 friends on the wing. Let's call this probability p.

p = the chance that an engine will fail.

What are the chances than a single engine will fail on a twin? 2*p. A quad? 4*p. Twice as likely!! Advantage Twin.

Things get a little trickier when you talk about multiple engine failures. For one, they are almost never independent events. As in it has never happened in history that two engines on the same plane failed for two different reasons.
Examples include the Eastern L1011 where the same mech made the same mistake in maintaining all three engines, and the UA 747 that blew out its cargo door over Hawaii, loosing both engines on that side. In these majority cases, you're screwed no matter if you're on a twin, or on a quad. So advantage neither.

But, let's assume all events ARE independent. So, you've lost an engine. What are the chances that you'll lose another? Tricky. It's not just p anymore because the load on the remaining engine(s) is greater than it was just moments before. In fact, I doubt any of the members on this thread actually know what the new probability (p') is. But, hey, that's never stopped us before from speculating, so why stop here? We do know that engine thrust is chosen on the one-engine-out rule. (The plane must still be able to perform with one engine out.) That means, that if a twin or a quad is out one engine, the others now have a probability p' that one will fail. What are the chances of an additional failure on a twin? p'. A quad? 2p'! Advantage Twin.

Now, I know you're thinking "wait! but the quad still has two engines left!" Well... sure. But, either way, a plane with two engines out will not be able to sustain level flight. It's coming down at the earliest opportunity, and the landing strip chooses you, not the other way around.

But again, this argument is mostly academic. There are no cases in which a twin has lost both engines independently. If I'm not mistaken, this hasn't happened on a quad either.
 
mightyfalcon
Posts: 378
Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2001 5:46 pm

RE: Do You Feel Safe Aboard An Etops Flight?

Sat Jun 09, 2001 7:13 pm

I just read the all discussion on this topic and I have to say that flying ETOPS on a twin-engined-aircraft doesn't scare me at all; ETOPS certification is not granted as easily as some here could think. Engines records are very closely scrutinized first. Then, the airline itself and its maintenance records are watched carefully. How crews and technicians are trained come as well under scrutiny. Eventually if any ETOPS certification is granted, it will be plane after plane (i.e. not all the B777 of that particular airline will get it as an aircraft type package) for a trial period and step by step: first the plane will be granted a 120 min. ETOPS certification for a while, then if no incident occurs with engines, maintenance and crews, it will be upgraded to 180 min. and eventually 207 min. for some B777.
This 207 min. certification of some B777 isn't an innocent one: Boeing really threw itself into this battle to be able to compete Airbus with its A340 on certain routes where the 180 min. B777 was not allowed to fly sor far. Acting devilish
At last, to answer one of Baec777's questions, ETOPS certification applies to twin engined-aircraft only.
ETOPS = Extended range Twin-engine OPerationS
The sky has no limit...
 
D L X
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RE: Do You Feel Safe Aboard An Etops Flight?

Sat Jun 09, 2001 7:51 pm

Not quite. ETOPS-207 is really ETOPS-180 with a weather allowance. If an alternate for -180 is closed for weather at the time of departure but expected to reopen mid-flight, you can still take a route that keeps you within 207 minutes of an alternate.

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