FlagshipAZ
Topic Author
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Are Flt Numbers "retired" After A Fatal Accident?

Tue Jun 05, 2001 6:18 am

Gentlemen & ladies...
Sometimes I see a reference regarding certain flight numbers that are not used again after a fatal accident. For example...AA191, PanAm103, Valuejet592, & TWA800. Are these numbers ever used again within that airline?? I'm a ops agent for F9 & I can get certain info within the industry, but the answer to this question eludes me. Maybe someone here knows? Thanks & regards.
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
 
Reggaebird
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RE: Are Flt Numbers "retired" After A Fatal Accident?

Tue Jun 05, 2001 6:22 am

Most carriers retire the numbers of flights that crash. However, I remember that when Egyptair 990 crashed, the flight on the next day still had the same number. That would have been slightly unnerving for me if I had been a passenger.

Thornton
 
Guest

RE: Are Flt Numbers "retired" After A Fatal Accident?

Tue Jun 05, 2001 6:26 am

Didn't TWA 800 crash once before as an L1049 or was that my imagination?
 
anawat
Posts: 87
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RE: Are Flt Numbers "retired" After A Fatal Accident?

Tue Jun 05, 2001 6:48 am

SQ. 16 was retired after the crash, I think.
 
dutchjet
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RE: Are Flt Numbers "retired" After A Fatal Accident?

Tue Jun 05, 2001 7:02 am

SR111 also is no longer used for the JFK-Geneva flight.
 
goboeing
Posts: 2428
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TWA800

Tue Jun 05, 2001 7:25 am

To whomever asked about the TWA800 crash #2, I've never heard of that. I do remember reading shortly after the crash off the NY Long Island coast that flight 800 operated daily to Paris for 20 years with no problems, so there probably was not another one.
Nick
 
Big777jet
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RE: Are Flt Numbers "retired" After A Fatal Accident?

Tue Jun 05, 2001 8:53 am

How do you tell me that American Airlines still using AA #111 from FCO to ORD on a 767? It is trans atlantic flight same as SwissAir Flt #111 crashed from JFK to GVA.

Big777jet

 
VirginA340
Posts: 2556
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RE: Are Flt Numbers "retired" After A Fatal Accident?

Tue Jun 05, 2001 9:15 am

Yes I can confirm the TWA 800 # was used twice One was off of Long Island and another was back in the 1950s or the 60s. This one involved a 707. I think the plane hit a steamroller after it rolled backwards. Alto of people died becasue they were too slow to get off the plane. I think this was at FCO or Milan. I don't know how the plane rolled backwards. I think the cause was pilot error, mechanical error or both. But when I heard that the 800 # was the name of the 747 that crashed in the Atlantic; I thought TWA was nuts and the mangement should have had their heads checked!!! My aunt told me a that if an airline used the # again they are cursed and that they'll suffer again but in a bigger way. apparently she was right as this crash and the bad PR among other things spelled the end for TWA. When I saw that that 747 reg # ended with a 9. I knew that the plane was cursed along with the same flt # they had used of a crashed plane with fatalities. TWA made alot of mistakes but this was horendous and quite stupis of them to use a flt # of a crashed plane.
"FUIMUS"
 
cedarjet
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RE: Are Flt Numbers "retired" After A Fatal Accident?

Tue Jun 05, 2001 9:18 am

PA103 became PA3 shortly after the crash in Scotland. On the other hand, the crash nervous passengers used to try not to think about before they tried not think about Lockerbie was Turk Hava Yollari TK981, a DC10 that went into a forest near Paris in 1974 after the cargo door opened, and killed 346 passengers. That flight still exists to this day, Ankara-Istanbul-London (in the 70s it also stopped in Paris).

TW800 flew for decades, I have seen it referred to in many books published prior to the fuel tank explosion on the 747. In fact a whole book was written about it in the 60s, following a 707 and it's captain from JFK to Paris to Rome (great book, stunning b&w photos).

One thing that stops airlines from immediately changing the flight number is the fact that thousands of tickets will have been printed months in advance for flights, so they can't change the flight number overnight, maybe two months in the future at least.

What is SR111 these days?
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
baec777
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RE: Are Flt Numbers "retired" After A Fatal Accident?

Tue Jun 05, 2001 9:46 am

August 2, 1985, Delta 191 Fatal Accident @ DFW, Thunderstorm ....  Sad


Baec777  Sad
 
NAACREW
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RE: Are Flt Numbers "retired" After A Fatal Accident?

Tue Jun 05, 2001 10:24 am

I believe Eastern Flt. 401 remained that flight number right up until the time they ceased operations. And look what was said about that flight.

Bob
 
NBC News1
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RE: Are Flt Numbers "retired" After A Fatal Accident?

Tue Jun 05, 2001 10:52 am

Virgin A340,

You are calling management at TWA "stupid" for using the flight #800 on their JFK-Paris flight, when that exact flight number crashed in the sixties?

It's stupid to think that they should change it. The flight number had little to do with any of those accidents.
 
baec777
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RE: Are Flt Numbers "retired" After A Fatal Accident?

Tue Jun 05, 2001 12:15 pm

Virgin A340,

Flight Numbers can not be repeated for another flight, Fatal Accident .... Flight Number is off the course.... not in service again... TWA Is Not Stupid Anyway...!!!!


TWA 747 @ New York - John F. Kennedy International (Idlewild) (JFK / KJFK)

Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Joe Pries





TWA Terminals 4 & 5 @ New York - John F. Kennedy International (Idlewild) (JFK / KJFK)

Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Joe Pries





TWA Terminals 4 & 5 @ New York - John F. Kennedy International (Idlewild) (JFK / KJFK)

Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Joe Pries





Baec777  Sad
 
Guest

RE: Are Flt Numbers

Tue Jun 05, 2001 12:24 pm

Airlines do "RETIRE" their flight number after a fatal crash.

There are few examples:

Korean Air retired KE800/801 when KE801 crashed at Guam.

China Airlines retired CI140/141 and CI675/676

Singapore Airlines retired SQ5/6

Silkair did retired MI181/182, but they also retired the whole 18x series and switch to 20x series.

But I think these "retired" flt number will show up again, perhaps 40 or 50 years later, when a airlines' flt numbering system is full
Airlines usually takes about 20days to switch their flight numbers after a fatal crash. SQ029/030 did not appears 20 days later after SQ5/6 crashed.
 
Guest

And...

Tue Jun 05, 2001 12:37 pm

I think the flight number retiring system also works for a code-share flight.

AI8005/8006, codes shares with SQ005/006, switched as AI8029/8030 after SIA announced that SQ005/006 is no longer available.
 
VirginA340
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RE: Are Flt Numbers "retired" After A Fatal Accident?

Tue Jun 05, 2001 1:40 pm

NBC news 1 and BAEC 777; TWA aint stupid eh; you guys need to get a life; I lost my best friend and his family aboard PA 103. I would be very offended if that flight # was used again and For TWAS management to use that # again despite the fatal accident and they had more than enough time to discontinue the name but never did. TWA management is quite stupid. I saw on how the families of flt 800 were treated and thats how PA employees at JFK treated me, my famliy and other family members who wanted to know information about their loved ones on the night PA 103 went down. The both airlines brushed families off and treated us with No respect and I suspect you did not see the group of NYC politicians bashing TWA publically for their mistreatment towards the families. Like you I once had respect for them. But now they can go to hell.
"FUIMUS"
 
TriStar
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RE: Are Flt Numbers "retired" After A Fatal Accident?

Tue Jun 05, 2001 3:07 pm

Cedarjet,

SR111 no longer exists. I.e. the number is no longer in use with the airline.

Best regards,

TriStar.
 
Guest

RE: Are Flt Numbers "retired" After A Fatal Accident?

Tue Jun 05, 2001 4:57 pm

SAA continued with SA295 as its flight number TPE-MRU-JNB after the Helderberg went down ... I flew the route several times subsequently.
 
Singapore 777
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RE: Are Flt Numbers "retired" After A Fatal Accident?

Tue Jun 05, 2001 8:39 pm

SQ5/6 was retired as well MI185/186. In fact, in the case of SilkAir, the entire line of 18x series numbers, which was being used on the CGK route, was totally scrapped in place of 20x series, when the route was discontinued soon after.
 
vunz
Posts: 347
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RE: Are Flt Numbers "retired" After A Fatal Accident?

Tue Jun 05, 2001 8:58 pm

Flight 800 crashed twice...

Date: 23.11.1964
Time: 13.09 GMT
Type: Boeing 707-331
Operator: Trans World Airlines - TWA
Registration: N769TW
C/n: 17685/123
Year built: 1960
Crew: 5 fatalities / 11 on board
Passengers: 45 fatalities / 62 on board
Total: 50 fatalities / 73 on board
Location: Roma-Fiumicino (Italy)
Phase: Take-off
Nature: Scheduled Passenger
Flight: Roma-Fiumicino - Athens (Flightnumber 800)
 
LoneStarMike
Posts: 2802
Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2000 1:02 pm

RE: Are Flt Numbers "retired" After A Fatal Accident?

Wed Jun 06, 2001 1:05 am

Sometimes the airline will retire the flight number for several years, but they end up using it again, although on a different route. Here are some examples:

AA Flight 625 (Providence - New York - St. Thomas) crashed in St.Thomas on 04-27-1976

http://aviation-safety.net/database/1976/760427-1.htm

Today, AA flight 625 operates from Miami to Providenciales, Turks & Caicos.

TWA Flight 514 from Columbus to Washington National (diverted to Dulles due to a snowstorm) crashed on 12-01-1974 while approaching Dulles, kiling all 92 onboard.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/1974/741201-0.htm

Today, TWA Flight 514 operates from Albuquerque to St. Louis.

Delta Flight 723 from Manchester to Boston crashed at Boston on 07-31-1973 killing all 89 onboard.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/1973/730731-0.htm

Today, Delta Flight 723 operates Savannah - Atlanta - Phoenix.

United Flight 173 from Denver to Portland crashed in Portland on 12-28-1979 after running out of fuel killing 10 of 189 people onboard.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/1978/781228-1.htm

Today, United 173 operates from Boston to San Francisco.

Air Canada Flight 797 from Dallas-Ft. Worth to Toronto caught fire and made an emergecy landing at Cincinatti on 06-02-1983, but 23 of the 46 persons aboard perished.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/1983/830602-1.htm

Today Air Canada Flight 797 operates from Montreal to Los Angeles.

Current flight information was obtained using flightarrivals.com

LoneStarMike

 
PHLyBoy
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RE: Are Flt Numbers "retired" After A Fatal Accident?

Wed Jun 06, 2001 1:16 am

I know Delta isn't currently using 1141 or 191 as Flight numbers in our system.
 
sevenair
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RE: Are Flt Numbers "retired" After A Fatal Accident?

Wed Jun 06, 2001 2:15 am

The British Midland crahs at EMA (going from LHR-BHD) flight BD098 is still inoperation todat, well over 10 years after the crash which claimed almost 40 lives wen the pilot shut down the wrong engine during an emergency landing-the plane hit a motorway embankemt, splitting in 3.
 
Cody
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Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 12:16 pm

RE: Are Flt Numbers "retired" After A Fatal Accident?

Wed Jun 06, 2001 2:27 am

I know Alaska retired the flight number of their recent accident to honor those killed. As someone above mentioned, Eastern 401, which crashed in 1972, continued to operate the very same route, usually on an L1011. Briefly they even had it continue from MIA to Buenos Aires with a few stops. I too think this was strange especially in this case. I mean with three books written about it and two movies made. That flight number would have been gone the next day if I had run the show.
 
cedarjet
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RE: Are Flt Numbers "retired" After A Fatal Accident?

Wed Jun 06, 2001 6:53 am

I don't see how continued use of the flight number PA103 could be seen as "offensive" to the families and friends of those lost on the flight that was bombed. Aren't some people a little too eager to take offense at the slightest thing, when no offense was intended?
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
VirginA340
Posts: 2556
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:35 pm

RE: Are Flt Numbers "retired" After A Fatal Accident?

Wed Jun 06, 2001 11:41 am

Cedarjet; PA was cutting corners on security; They were proven in a NYC courtroom by a Federal Judge to be guilty in the gross neglegence in the safety and security of those on PA 103. Those bomb sniffing dogs at JFK were only show dogs bought cheap from a local kennel. PA had run an ad campaigne in the NY media stating that they'd tack an extra $5 on ever one way 1st class ticket to pay for the increased security. It was a scam. not one cent went to security only their coffers. I bet you would not fly PA if you knew that the airline had waivers to skip hand searches on unaccompaied bags on flights originating from Europe issued by then FAA cheif Dan Salazar. Martin Shugrue lied to my parents about these waivers claiming that they did not exist when they confronted him at the PA building. He swore up and down that he did not know about it. But then when more and more reports camer out about it he then told them that it was on a verbal agreement which is pure bull because to get such waivers the requests must be in writing. CEO Thomas Plaskett was in this as well

PA's security cheif Dan Sonenson in a telex stated " If a passengers luggage is on board the aircraft and he/she does not show then we go!!!" They dilibratly violated the passenger bag match rules in their sfaty regualtions manual. Alert A security firm fully owned by PA mangement at FRA had holes in their security practices. Ulrich Weber a head supervisor was dishonerably discharged from the Illinois National Guard and was court marshaled because he was AWOL from the US Army. He was also fired from various other jobs from stealing money and other property. He was also charged with forgery, fraud and passing bad check and yet was hired by PA. Weber hired a woman becasue she had beautiful blue eyes but yet she was a hair dresser and had no knowlegde in security whatsoever. Within 4 days she was promated to Supervisor!!!!! This man should not have even been allowed to clean toilets on a plane!!!! Di I also mention that Weber knew of the Helsinki warning but yet did nothin and when he was confronted by another supervisor Weber took the original and backdated it to December the 5th to make it look like he was aware of the threat; This was the morining after the plane went down. The supervisor that complained was fired but Weber's budget for security had gone through the roof.

PA 103 families were contacted by PA reps. Their job was to see to the families need. Remeber after a loved one dies victim's families open up to anyone who lends an ear. It turns out that what was supposed to be a private phone call the reps were scribling notes and haning them to PA attorneys and they would argue that that person should recieve less compenation. A parent actually confided to a rep that her son was gay. The rep took this info handed it to a lawyer and in court they argued that since he was gay they should recieve less compensation because he would most likely not have kids!!! So you see Cedar Jet PA not only screwed us they tried to get away with murder. As John Root (a lawyer who lost his wife of 4 months) would say it the best " PAN AM is a corporation of murderurs an CEO Plaskett,Martin Shugrue, FRA Supervisor Ulrich Weber, PA security exec Dan Sonenson, ex FAA cheif Dan Salazar and other employees invloved is covered in the passengers blood. If they can't warn them; Then they had better protect them!!!
"FUIMUS"
 
DIA
Posts: 3053
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2001 2:24 pm

RE: Are Flt Numbers "retired" After A Fatal Accident?

Wed Jun 06, 2001 12:24 pm

Just over a decade ago, Continental Flight 1713 (DC-9)from Denver to Boise crashed on a blizzardy evening just after rotate.

Not only did CO retire that flight number, they also retired that route!

Regards, DIA
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