airbusluver
Posts: 154
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2001 5:08 am

Best Base For A New Airline

Wed Jun 06, 2001 1:49 am

What airport do you think would be a good base for a new entrant in the US. Here are my ideas:

Portland, OR (PDX) High traffic, not dominated, and a nice airport
Austin, TX (AUS) High yielding traffic, not dominated, and also a nice airport.
San Francisco (OAK or SFO) Low fare airline to compete against United to the East Coast.

These are just a few of my thoughts. How about yours?

-airbusluver
 
Guest

RE: Best Base For A New Airline

Wed Jun 06, 2001 2:17 am

Long Beach, nice niche.
Iain
 
airbusluver
Posts: 154
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2001 5:08 am

RE: Best Base For A New Airline

Wed Jun 06, 2001 2:52 am

Long Beach---jetBlue soon.
 
ScottB
Posts: 5413
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

RE: Best Base For A New Airline

Wed Jun 06, 2001 3:05 am

Portland: Delta couldn't make it work as a hub, so they're scaling back. Significant competition from Alaska, United, and Southwest means this airport is already well-served for a city of Portland's size.

Austin: High fare levels, but only on longer-haul flights. Difficult to compete on the short-haul flights because of Southwest, and you need those to help build your long-haul traffic. Nice airport but only one open gate right now unless you can convince the City of Austin to build new gates for you.

San Francisco: Airfield capacity is a BIG problem when the weather is bad. The airport gives priority to long-haul international flights, then long-haul domestic flights, then short-haul flights. Weather-related operational problems for a new airline would be ruinous.

Oakland: Better weather conditions, but severely limited terminal capacity until the terminals are redeveloped; they already handle nearly 200 daily jet departures from approximately 20 gates. A longer-term problem is competing with WN should they ever start trans-con service at OAK.

Long Beach: Only 27 departure slots left, and jetBlue has rights to them for two years. Even without that, you're stuck once you hit 27 daily departures. Plus the terminal is more appropriate to the 1940's than the 21st century.
 
N863DA
Posts: 1140
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 6:36 am

RE: Best Base For A New Airline

Wed Jun 06, 2001 3:11 am

Jacksonville, FL.

It's a huge city, (biggest in the Western Hemisphere by size) and biggest single population in Florida, (bigger than that of Miami or Orlando).

Maybe it's not the Tourist destination of the more-Southern cities - thank God - but Jacksonville has huge prospects.

LONG LIVE JAXport!

FLY DELTA JETS and sail UNITED STATES LINES



N 8 6 3 D A
 
cba
Posts: 4228
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2000 2:02 pm

RE: Best Base For A New Airline

Wed Jun 06, 2001 3:28 am

ONT would be the best airport to start a hub on the west coast. It is only 40-50 miles East of LAX. It was just renovated, and is very modern looking. It has a lot of available slots for a new airline to use, and can accomodate a 747.
 
wolfpacker
Posts: 343
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 1999 2:35 am

RE: Best Base For A New Airline

Wed Jun 06, 2001 3:40 am

ORF, SW starting service.

GSO, within 1 hour drive to CLT. Could capture some of the passengers who are paying high fares.
 
Reggaebird
Posts: 886
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 1999 7:43 am

RE: Best Base For A New Airline

Wed Jun 06, 2001 3:59 am


MSY in New Orleans!
 
srbmod
Posts: 15446
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 1:32 pm

RE: Best Base For A New Airline

Wed Jun 06, 2001 5:42 am

Have to agree on MSY. There are enough gates sitting there unused to start up a decent sized hub operation. No airline really has a domination there, Delta flies to ATL and DFW from there, Southwest flies to DAL and LAS from there, and AA, UAL, and US have small presence in MSY. AirTran flies about a half dozen flights to ATL a day from there also. Someone tried in the 80s to start an airline out of MSY but couldn't finance to profitablity. Some other airports that would be good hubs are: Mid-America Airport in IL, they only have four gates presently, but would be a good place to start an RJ based airline out of; COS, close enough from Denver to attract pax, but far enough away to keep prices low; HOU (Hobby), as attractive as DAL (Dallas-Love Field) when it comes to proximity to downtown, plus the oil industry and shipping industries in the area; XNA (Fayetteville, AR), still a smaller airport, but would be a good location for a Midwestern regional airline to have a hub; DSM, Access Air tried but failed out of here, but the is an ideal location in the middle of the country; and lastly, ABQ, great weather year round, and is far enough away from PHX to not be affected by AWA.
 
ScottB
Posts: 5413
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

RE: Best Base For A New Airline

Wed Jun 06, 2001 6:43 am

MSY: The yields are terrible because (1) Southwest has 50 daily flights and (2) most traffic is for leisure and conventions. Moreover, the two main runways cross, so you run into a congestion problem trying to run a hub operation.

BLV: (Mid-America) Too far from the majority of the population in the St. Louis area, which is predominantly on the Missouri side of the river. With Southwest keeping fares down in STL (with 80+ daily flights), there's little motivation to travel the extra half hour.

COS: Learn from history. Western Pacific failed. The population base isn't large enough in the Colorado Springs area, and the presence of Frontier at DEN (with lower fares than UA) limits the amount of traffic you can draw from Denver today.

HOU: You'd have to be insane to start an airline at an airport which is dominated by Southwest with 150 daily flights, and which also competes with Continental's largest hub 30 miles away. Watch the red ink flow. Same for DAL - Southwest will kill you on the short-haul or AA will kill you on the long haul.

ABQ: Another airport dominated by Southwest; moreover, the high-fare traffic you need to support a hub is limited.

GSO: 50 miles from RDU and Midway's hub without quite as favorable demographics as RDU. (And look at Midway's current financial condition). Also in the shadow of CLT, ATL, IAD, BWI. Failed hub for Continental Lite.

XNA: Even smaller than Little Rock or Jackson.
DSM: Also too small (smaller than OMA).
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24521
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: Best Base For A New Airline

Wed Jun 06, 2001 6:55 am

N863DA, inner city population means nothing. Jacksonville has 750,000 residents in an area of 650 square miles. Miami has 360,000 residents in an area of 36 square miles. Orlando has 1.5M residents plus the tourist traffic. Miami has 3.9M residents plus the tourist traffic and two major airprots. Tampa Bay has 2.4M residents. The Jax metro is 1.1M, less than even Grand Rapids and Raleigh-Durham. Don't get me wrong, nothing wrong with JAX, but too small for anything major. Tourist cities aside, the smallest you can get for strong operations is about Charlotte (1.6M), with some exceptions (MEM and RDU). Too support a lot on the O&D side, you can't go much smaller than Seattle (3.1M).
a.
 
DeltaAir
Posts: 1059
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 4:41 am

RE: Best Base For A New Airline

Wed Jun 06, 2001 7:06 am

Central-South Florida needs a new airline or airport. Tampa is nearly out of room to expand, unless they go into the ocean. Orlando is now maxed with the addition of the new airside. Miami is in bad shape and always has been from a design stand point. The plans to build something new in the Everglades was cancelled due to concerns from a nature standpoint, so plans are to move it north, somewhere into Polk County to supplement Tampa, Orlando, and the surrounding area. My guess is that with all the businesses coming to the I-4 corridor, this would be a gold mine.
 
Guest

RE: Best Base For A New Airline

Wed Jun 06, 2001 7:18 am

I agree with ScottB in all of his assesments. GSO failed for CO Lite and Eastwind.

I do like JAX though, although DL dominates that airport through ATL, but I think it could support nonstop flights bypassing ATL. Nothing too ambitious though.

I like ONT too, hugely growing area.

FLL, the countries fastest growing airport has tons of open new gates after completing the new Terminal 1. Yes, Metrojet, JetBlue, Southwest, Midway, Delta Express, Spirit, and Airtran keep fares low, but I think yet another well run low fare carrier would work, perhaps even with service to the Carribean and Trans-Atlantic service over the summer.

rgds
russ
 
AC320
Posts: 2809
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 11:29 pm

RE: Best Base For A New Airline

Wed Jun 06, 2001 9:01 am

"FLL, the countries fastest growing airport has tons of open new gates after completing the new Terminal 1."

Yep, all 9 of them  Laugh out loud
fuddle duddle
 
America West
Posts: 1151
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2001 6:54 am

RE: Best Base For A New Airline

Wed Jun 06, 2001 9:34 am

CMH would be a nice place. Its a nice airport about 18 miles from downtown Columbus. There is a brand new terminal that will be built that will be fully developed to 34 gates as demand dictates, and also a concouse expansion on the way. As well as a new runway, a new control tower, and another taxiway bridge over Sawyer Rd. The current runways can be used by all types of commercial aircraft.
 
wolfpacker
Posts: 343
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 1999 2:35 am

RE: Best Base For A New Airline

Wed Jun 06, 2001 11:51 am

CoLite failed countrywide, not because of GSO. Eastwind failed due ot poor management.

GSO may not be best place for new airline but better than others.
 
Guest

RE: Best Base For A New Airline

Wed Jun 06, 2001 11:54 am

Uhh yeah...

9 relative to the total number of gates at FLL is a pretty significant precentage. A whole concourse at Terminal 3 is practically empty with just US/Metrojet taking up a few gates.

So, yeah there is tons of room for someone to do a large ramp up.

russ
 
airlineguy
Posts: 343
Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Best Base For A New Airline

Wed Jun 06, 2001 11:57 am

IND - its demographicly correct, growing airport, major companies based or moving in IN. Can expand routes to both eastern and western cities.
 
highflyer16
Posts: 116
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2001 2:10 pm

RE: Best Base For A New Airline

Wed Jun 06, 2001 12:08 pm

Don't count out MCI in Kansas City! Of course another startup airline, Vanguard, is already trying to make a go of it there.

Kansas City has been underserverd for years, partly due to the fact that it's airport was designed in the 60s at a time when most airlines flew pretty much point to point. Instead of having concourses, the airport consists of three circular terminals that you can drive right up to, and planes board right behind the ticket counter. It's nice for O&D traffic because you walk only 50 feet from curbside to plane, but it can only be used by a small airline for making connections, otherwise gates are simply too far apart.

But they could accomodate about ten smaller airlines, and that may well be the only way that Kansas City ever gets any decent amount of air traffic. Another thing, I would be willing to bet that if that airline grew, Kansas City would accomodate them with their own concourse in order to keep their business.



 
ILOVEA340
Posts: 2064
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 1999 9:49 am

RE: Best Base For A New Airline

Wed Jun 06, 2001 12:30 pm

SJC or OAK would be way better than sfo as united has a monopoly their.
 
Guest

RE: Best Base For A New Airline

Wed Jun 06, 2001 1:33 pm

I think SNA could be a cool hub for a starting airline. Lot's of tourist places and many tourist cities like San Diego, Anaheim, and Los Angeles. But I think there won't be enough room.
 
Reggaebird
Posts: 886
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 1999 7:43 am

RE: Best Base For A New Airline

Wed Jun 06, 2001 1:41 pm



How about BOS after the on-going expansion?
 
Guest

RE: Best Base For A New Airline

Wed Jun 06, 2001 3:31 pm

Have to agree on IND. 3 runways 11,200ft/10,000ft/7,600ft. 33 gates, and only 18 airlines with only 12 majors, and (according to their website) only 45 non-stops(avg.). Southwest is the only problem as they actually have a IND-LAX non-stop, and a number of others. But, a small start-up might be able to find a niche (e.g. non-stops to FL cities.)
 
airbusluver
Posts: 154
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2001 5:08 am

RE: Best Base For A New Airline

Wed Jun 06, 2001 10:33 pm

DrDrew O,

SNA is out of the question--too many restrictions on noise, etc. Lots of NIMBY's (Not In My BackYard) griping about noise. The airport is currently maxed out in terms of slots.
 
flyCMH
Posts: 2134
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 1999 12:15 pm

RE: Best Base For A New Airline

Thu Jun 07, 2001 1:17 am

I would have to go with...

San Antonio (SAT): large city, no dominant carrier, good location for transboarder flights.

Austin (AUS): huge technology center, booming population, new airport with readily expandable facilities.

Indianapolis (IND): large new midfield terminal to begin construction, no dominant carrier, ATA has a minimal presence, and large population base.
 
twa
Posts: 819
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:59 pm

RE: Best Base For A New Airline

Thu Jun 07, 2001 1:22 am

FLL/IND/MSY

TWA
 
gsoflyer
Posts: 822
Joined: Sat May 12, 2001 12:31 pm

RE: Best Base For A New Airline

Thu Jun 07, 2001 1:30 am

I would like to say,

CO Lite failed on the corporate level, that had nothign to do with Greensboro or the area in general.

Eastwind failed because an idiot was running the company and because the flew planes that were too large to the small airports they served. Again, not the fault of Greensboro.

As for Demographics of Greensboro, 1 hour from Charlotte and 1 hour from Raleigh/Durham. Also draws from High Point, Winston-Salem (The Piedmont Triad which is 1.6m), Danville, western mountains, and Roanoke. Its not an area to take lightly, though I do agree that the demographics are not the same as Raleigh or Charlotte.
 
gsoflyer
Posts: 822
Joined: Sat May 12, 2001 12:31 pm

And A Couple Of Other Things

Thu Jun 07, 2001 1:39 am

Greensboro is going through Terminal Expansion on the South Concourse. Runway 14/32 is being lengthened to 10,000 ft. And the New Parrallel 10,000 runway is slated to be approved late June or early July. When that happens, it'll be one of the bigger airports in the South.

Plus another geographical fit is that GSO as well as RDU, lie at pretty much the midpoint on the East Coast.
 
AerLingus
Posts: 2280
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2000 9:22 am

RE: Best Base For A New Airline

Thu Jun 07, 2001 1:45 am

Uhh...isn't Am Trans headquartered at IND?
Get your patchouli stink outta my store!
 
airbusluver
Posts: 154
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2001 5:08 am

RE: Best Base For A New Airline

Thu Jun 07, 2001 3:34 am

AerLingus,

Yes--AmTran is headquartered at IND, but their hub is in MDW.
 
AF007
Posts: 63
Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:13 am

RE: Best Base For A New Airline

Sat Jun 09, 2001 3:35 am

It's true, people in Indianapolis are perplexed by ATA's hub at MDW. Can anyone explain it?

I'd suggest Gary airport near Chicago - because it's near Chicago. What about MKE, too?

And it really seems that JFK has some massively un-realized potential. I guess Jet Blue is working on that...
 
WiLdmanVzla
Posts: 590
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2000 12:17 pm

RE: Best Base For A New Airline

Sat Jun 09, 2001 12:53 pm

Why only in the US?????... right now there's a big need for a new airline in BUENOS AIRES!!!!!

*******
 
airlinelover
Posts: 5287
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2001 8:03 am

RE: Best Base For A New Airline

Sat Jun 09, 2001 12:59 pm

I think TPA, MCO, or MIA would be a good base for a new airline, especially is one of their big things is package vacations. I am living in Michigan, and I can't count how many people I know travel to Florida at LEAST 3 times a year, I fly at least once a year to TPA to see family, and my mom even more. It may be a little out of the way, but those airports have untapped potential, in my opinion.

-Chris
Lets do some sexy math. We add you, subtract your clothes, divide your legs and multiply
 
deltaflyertoo
Posts: 1479
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2000 3:18 pm

RE: Best Base For A New Airline

Sat Jun 09, 2001 3:03 pm

Are you sure SW has an IND-LAX nonstop? I don't think that is correct.

I don't think IND would work although theoretically it looks attractive. From what I've heard the population base is actually NOT that big and the current majors handle the loads on their own really good.

Also, there was a study done a couple of years ago, that showed that IND would not work as a hub because it is sandwhiched between CVG to the south, ORD to the north and CLE/DTW to the east and STL to the west. While I don't totally understand it, being so close to so many hubs would make it difficult to compete for the connecting traffic. So the study recommended IND remain in its current state of feeding all of these hubs rather than be one on its own.
 
Guest

RE: Best Base For A New Airline

Sat Jun 09, 2001 3:29 pm

According to the indianapolis airport web-site which lists all the cities to which they fly with stops as well as non-stops. They listed a non-stop from IND-LAX. I checked for stops, but there were none. Of course this wasn't SW's website so it could very easily be wrong.
 
HlywdCatft
Posts: 5232
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:21 am

RE: Best Base For A New Airline

Sat Jun 09, 2001 3:46 pm

At DTW I would like to see another carrier set up a hub to compete against Northwest to bring down ticket prices. Spirit sort of has a hub at DTW.

Another good place to set up a small hub about 10 years from now would be Oakland Pontiac Airport in Detroit's northern suburbs. The airport is known to handle at least an A320 since Daimler Chrysler flies theirs there and some bigger planes come in carrying the teams that face the Detroit Lions and Pistons who have stadiums near by along with the Pistons old private DC-9. Detroit Red Wings used to fly their old BAC 111 before they got their DC-9-50 and moved to Metro.
 
PanAm747
Posts: 4713
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 4:46 am

RE: Best Base For A New Airline

Sat Jun 09, 2001 3:49 pm

ATL-No carrier has a large presence there.

But seriously, about Florida, it seems EVERY AIRLINE, especially the low cost ones, travel to Florida, and handles the traffic just fine.

IND, no way, the population base is way low.

I think San Antonio would be great.

BOS-If you could wrestle the Shuttle flights from the majors, you will be a very rich fellow.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
LV
Posts: 1546
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2001 6:02 am

RE: Best Base For A New Airline

Sun Jun 10, 2001 7:07 am

As far as the idea of Florida flights from IND, most of ATA's flights at IND go to Florida...at least the ones not going to Chicago (yes and there are a few flights to Vegas). Delta Express has been going IND-MCO for some time and just added Ft. Meyers and another FL destination (Ft. Lauderdale?) Plus WN has one daily non-stop from IND-JAX so that takes out the idea of serving FL from IND.
USAirways tried to make it a mini-hub, and they have Concourse D all to themselves, but they have cut back their presence on a large scale. I would like to see another airline take over some of the rarely used USAirways gates (Frontier maybe???)
Also, I think when TWA is finally swallowed up by AA, I think WN will take over the single TWA gate at IND, I mean WN and NW surround TW there, so I would make since.
So basically my point is that IND is better as a cargo hub than a pax hub, I love Indy as I am a born Hoosier but I think realistically cargo is the way to go.
 
airbusluver
Posts: 154
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2001 5:08 am

RE: Best Base For A New Airline

Sun Jun 10, 2001 9:23 am

PanAm747,

ATL-No carrier has a large presence there:

Hmm. Tell that to Delta  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Florida: Too low of yield for a normal carrier. It seems most people on this board do not understand the concept of yield when it comes to determining hubs. Low yield typically means more leisure travelers, and high yield means more business travelers. Since leisure travelers tend to get the lowest fares (by advance booking, more flexible schedules, etc.) and business travelers tend to travel more based on schedule and frequency rather than price, you get smaller profits when flying leisure travelers. This can work if you have the right mission (flying as a low-fare carrier), but not if you have higher costs.
 
PanAm747
Posts: 4713
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 4:46 am

RE: Best Base For A New Airline

Sun Jun 10, 2001 9:38 am

Airbusluver-I was just kidding.

About Florida, does anyone know of a major airline in the U.S. that DOESN'T fly to Florida?

That must be the most flown to state, also it gets a TON of int. traffic (MCO).
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
YoungDon
Posts: 495
Joined: Thu May 31, 2001 9:33 am

RE: Best Base For A New Airline

Sun Jun 10, 2001 12:12 pm

I think that IND could work, as the population base is higher than many think. Think about it this way: Indianapolis is the only large airport in Indiana, a state with a population of 6 million people. Though you have ORD and CVG near many of Indiana's residents, ORD is extremely congested and ops at CVG are going to be lessened by the Comair strike, as they supply more than half of the air traffic at CVG. And if, God forbid, Comair went under, CVG would not provide very many connections, as Delta itself does not operate many domestic flights out of CVG.

SAT would be a good pick, as San Antonio is a very large city, but the amount of business travelers are very low. Also, IAH, HOU, DFW, and DAL connect many travelers from SAT. A well financed startup (like jetBlue was) may be able to siphon off some passengers with a large initial service. This means nonstops to at least seven or eight large markets with fairly frequent service. But it would always have low yield unless the amount of business travelers increased.

When dealing with this type of topic, you have to look at secondary airports that serve crowded markets, such as large metro areas. A perfect example is Houston's Ellington Field. The demographics are there. Two long runways. (around 10,000 ft.) The runways do not intersect, which means you can have at least 60-80 operations an hour (factoring in surrounding air traffic). Ellington is the closest Houston airport to the large factories and industrial complexes that make up the IH-45 corridor from South Houston to Galveston. But once again the airline would have to be well financed, as price cutting from WN and CO would kill the airline off. Also, a terminal would have to be constructed, costing the airline millions. That would suck for a startup. Thanks for reading.
 
Guest

RE: Best Base For A New Airline

Sun Jun 10, 2001 12:48 pm

Dayton: Piedmont did well there, too close to PIT so
US closed it. The opportunities US squandered
with PI/PS are shameful.
Newburgh: Close to NYC, far enough away from JFK and
ISP so they can avoid direct competition with
Jet Blue and Southwest. Catchment area of
over 2 million.
Wilmington, DE: Can draw from Philly, dominated by US,
not the most aggressive competitor.
Detroit City: ProAir failed partly due to large aircraft.
A fleet of short-field Avro's might do well there.
Akron/Canton: Low-fare carrier could do well there,
drawing from Cleveland and Youngstown as
well.

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