Diego767
Topic Author
Posts: 23
Joined: Thu May 20, 1999 7:23 am

2 Hour Hold

Fri Jun 04, 1999 5:24 am

I ve read some posts stating that there is no way ATC can keep a plane on a holding patern for this long, I remember flying into TPA from SFO via ATL on board a Delta L1011 holding for 1 hour 50 minutes , captain says: we ll give it 15 more minutes if cell doesnt move out of TPA we are going to MCO or SRQ . so I guess my question is ... is the holding time based on FUEL ? its gotta be I 'd think
 
FLY777UAL
Posts: 4830
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 3:49 am

RE: 2 Hour Hold

Fri Jun 04, 1999 5:32 am

Holding time is dependant on the amount of fuel the aircraft has left. The larger jets (on short flights) such as the L1011, 747, and even the 757 can hold for a long time (if they're filled to the max. with fuel), wheres smaller jets, such as the 737, and the MD-80 can only hold so long. That 2 hrs. is the longest that I've heard an MD-80 hold for!

FLY777UAL
 
JETPILOT
Posts: 3094
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 6:40 am

There Was No 2 Hour Hold !

Fri Jun 04, 1999 6:08 am

The 2 hour hold the media is talking about is a gate hold. Not an inflight hold.

And the theory that larger jets can hold longer than smaller jets is a fabrication.

Airlines fuel there planes according to the weather at the destination.

If the weather is good then the standard is to dispatch with fuel required to the destination plus an additional 10% for overburn. Then then there is taxi fuel usually about 1/2 an hours worth. Then there is fuel for one missed approach and fuel to 10,000 feet and a hold for 45 minutes. Then there is fuel to fly to an alternate and then again fuel to climb to 10,000 feet and hold for an additional 45 minutes.

If the weather is to be bad the only thing that would be increased is the holding fuel, and maybe fuel for an additional go around.

And then there is also something called granny fuel that every flight engineer or pilot puts on his plane to make himself feel better if going to an airport with inclement weather. This is fuel that must be hidden in the paperwork as it is fuel that is not authorized to be carried by the company. It may be stored in an aux tank, and is usually hidden by calling it an underburn in the paperwork handed in by the crew. This makes the airline think their 40 year old DC8's a re performing like a new 777. He He.

Airliners don't tanker extra fuel around needlessly becaus this would only decrease the performance of the aircraft. Sometimes airlines disatch aircraft with round trip fuel because it is cheaper to fill up at the point of departure than at the turnaround point. This however is an unsfe practice that I am uncomfortable with as the landing distances increase dramatically with weight.
 
dc863
Posts: 1466
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 1999 10:52 am

RE: 2 Hour Hold

Fri Jun 04, 1999 11:20 am

I remember flying from MIA-JFK back in 1968 once where we flew in curcuits near JAX,Norfolk, and finally JFK. On that trip instead of a flight of little over 2hrs. the flight time was over 5hrs. The flight by the way was on an Eastern 727-100.
 
Spud
Posts: 109
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2011 5:15 pm

RE: Jetpilot

Fri Jun 04, 1999 12:20 pm

Carefull with those statements. Remember that fuel policy is for you company or country only. Every company will be different, depending on country of registration and how much money they have. We are a little different here. for example, this is a cut and paste from a plan I did yesterday for a 744 doing FRA/LAX. All in kgs for you americans. ( hope it comes out ok) Z F WT 217500 A-B TIME/FUEL 1007 103926 NET FUEL 120121 CONTGCY FUEL 2/2 2095 B R WT 337621 DEP ALLOWANCE 833 BURNOFF 106112 ETP B/U 0 LAND WT 231509 ARRVL ALLNC 0 INST APP KLAX 12 1353 MIN RES 11914 XTR HOLD KLAX 0 TANKER FUEL 0 COST INDEX M85 DIV TO KLAS 0046 8047 CRZ ALT 310 XTR HOLD KLAS 0 Ok as you can see we carry A-B one I/A at LAX, fuel to divert alt then B-C which is to LAS. plus 2% of A-B and B-C. Also carry fixed reserve of 30mins. On this flight we have a dept allowance, due to ATC routing out of FRA. CPTS do have the discretion to take more, of course. (fudge factor I call it). Airlines fuel to dest weather, yes but also to traffic holding times and other operational factors. Tanker fuel for next sector is used quite a bit down here. Mainly due to the cost and sheer lack of fuel on some islands. 767's actually fly and land better with a bit of weight anyway. Holding... It has been known for huge holding times to occur, especially with a bit of fog, an hour is nothing new, and two is very rare but it happens. Large aircraft can potentially hold longer cause of larger tanks. eg due to full shortage I tankered a 767 sector with enough full to hold for 10 hrs. cant do that with a 733.. hope this shows another side, rgds.
 
dash8
Posts: 389
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2005 8:23 am

RE: Spud

Sat Jun 05, 1999 1:32 am

Spud is correct it's all based on company policy.

I was just curious spud, that 767 you filled with 10 hours' holding, is that based on the "economical tanking" policy some companies (including mine) have, which is to tank fuel at places where fuel is cheaper so when they arrive at the destination not as much "expensive" fuel has to be uplifted for the journey back?

Dash8

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