redngold
Posts: 6673
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2000 12:26 pm

Dep. Hdgs CLE Rwy.

Thu Jun 07, 2001 9:52 am

I have a question about what I hear on my scanner while watching a/c depart Runway 6L (or 6R) from Cleveland (CLE).

(Directions given from pilot's point of view.)

Several times now I have seen traffic depart with the following instructions:

"XXX, cleared for takeoff, fly heading 095"

The a/c takes off and immediately turns right heading 095.

Sooner or later, someone departs with the following instructions.

"XXX, cleared for takeoff, turn left heading 010."

The a/c takes off and immediately turns slightly to the left.

I'm confused here.

It seems to me that 095 is consistent with the compass heading 095, because the a/c "heading 095" I've watched doing that turn go roughly ENE.

The a/c "turn left heading 010" end up going approximately due north, or 18 heading. I'm guessing this means the direction is to "turn left ten degrees from where you were flying originally" or 16?

Can you understand what I'm trying to describe?

Can someone explain this?

Thanks to all who answer,
redngold

Up, up and away!
 
PanAm747
Posts: 4713
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 4:46 am

RE: Dep. Hdgs CLE Rwy.

Thu Jun 07, 2001 9:58 am

All of the numbers are compass headings. Ac either turn for 95 degrees or 10 degrees.

But the real question is when is CLE going to become a REAL CO hub? It's dissapointing to drive by there and see nothing but 737s, RJs, etc.. CO should build up CLE more and stop ignoring it.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
Guest

RE: Dep. Hdgs CLE Rwy.

Thu Jun 07, 2001 10:29 am

Hi Red,

Really I am not familliar with CLE but i guess these instructions could be DP's (Departure Procedures).

Apparently I'm looking at KCLE diagram at www.aeroplanner.com and it shows that it has no 06's runways but 2 05's.
Assuming these are the ones you are talking about an aircraft taking off from these runway and being cleared to turn to 010 would do a 40 degrees left turn.
If an aircraft was still taking off from anyone of the 05s runways and was cleared to turn to 095 it would make a 45 degrees right turn (095 - 050 = 45).

The a/c "turn left heading 010" end up going approximately due north, or 18 heading. I'm guessing this means the direction is to "turn left ten degrees from where you were flying originally" or 16?

I'm not trying to sound like bashing you or anything but you don't seems to fully understand either the cardinals heading or the runway numbering system

The best way i could explain this to you is by asking you the following question.

"What would be the numbers painted on the west side of a west-east oriented runway?" If you answered 27 it is not the correct answer. 09 is. See it depicts not where the runways "is" but what heading you would be following after takeoff.

I hope I have been easy to understand cause i don't even dare reading back what i wrote haha  Smile

Nicolas
 
Guest

RE: Dep. Hdgs CLE Rwy.

Thu Jun 07, 2001 11:24 am

Hey, RednGold, I saw your reference to this question earlier on Johan's thread about improving the forum, and it made me chuckle a bit. Since it has alot to do with both flight and ATC procedures, I'm glad you chose to post here in Civil Aviation. As an ATC, I've seen lots of questions like this over the years where even experienced pilots are baffled. This one is actually pretty simple...

You probably already know that runway numbers are based on magnetic headings using a 360-degree compass; thus, runway 18 has a magnetic heading of roughly 180. KCLE's runway 5L and 5R have headings of 057-degrees magnetic. Departing pilots are issued headings to establish course divergence and achieve separation in accordance with ATC regulations, and to achieve efficiency and noise abatement. Some CLE departures will be given "Turn Left Heading 010" off RY 5L/R, while others will get "Turn Right Heading 045". You may find that some headings are given only to smaller GA flights, to get them out of the commercial departure streams. Or, you may find ORD and other west departures get heading 010 while everything departing to EWR and other points east gets the 045 heading.

In any event, all these numbers are no more than simple magnetic headings based on a 360-degree compass. They only seem more significant because they are rattled off so fast by ATC and pilots...

Hope this answers your question. Glad to field any others related to ATC.



 
Big777jet
Posts: 2682
Joined: Mon May 01, 2000 10:52 am

RE: Dep. Hdgs CLE Rwy.

Thu Jun 07, 2001 1:08 pm

CLE airport has been changed runway numbers recently from 5R/L - 23 R/L to 6R/L - 24R/L now.

Big777jet
 
redngold
Posts: 6673
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2000 12:26 pm

RE: Dep. Hdgs CLE Rwy.

Fri Jun 08, 2001 6:15 am

Thanks, Jeff, your answer was helpful.

Nicolas, I know exactly what the cardinals are.
The only reason I wrote "18" instead of "180" and "16" for "160" was because I was using runway shorthand. I'll try to be more proper next time.

For your information, Cleveland changed its main runway headings from 5L/23R and 5R/23L to 6L/24R and 6R/23L two weeks ago today. I know my runways -- I'm out there radio scanning and taking pictures almost every day!

Some of us here aren't pilots. Give us a chance to learn instead of pointing out what we don't already know.

redngold
Up, up and away!
 
Guest

RE: Dep. Hdgs CLE Rwy.

Fri Jun 08, 2001 7:11 am

No surprise on the change in runway numbers. Runway numbers change as the magnetic declination slowly drifts; at PDX, they changed from RY02-20 to RY01-19 a few years ago.

There may also be a little confusion about whether ATC is instucting pilots to turn X degrees or to a specific heading. You may hear two standard phraseologies:

"TURN LEFT HEADING 010, RY 6L, CLRD FOR TAKEOFF" or

"TURN TEN DEGREES LEFT, FOR TRAFFIC..."

If you really want to get to the root of these questions, see the FAA's 7110.65, ATC Manual, Chapter 5, Sections 6 and 8. If you don't already have it bookmarked, use Google to search 7110.65; it'll take you right to it.
 
Guest

RE: Dep. Hdgs CLE Rwy.

Fri Jun 08, 2001 7:32 am

Red. I hope you haven't took my post in the wrong way, in no way i was trying to be bad on you.
 
chrisair
Posts: 1799
Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2000 11:32 pm

RE: Dep. Hdgs CLE Rwy.

Fri Jun 08, 2001 9:49 am

PDX does not have any runway 01/19. They changed 20/02 to 21/03, and this runway is hardly used.

 
Guest

RE: Dep. Hdgs CLE Rwy.

Fri Jun 08, 2001 9:55 am

Chrisair: you are absolutely right... RY 03/21 at PDX. My tired mind remembered the change but misplaced the numbers....

...time to nap before going back to work...

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