Guest

TWA A318: Cancelled.

Fri Jun 08, 2001 1:15 am

<
The Boeing family of new generation 737 aircraft would allow for fleet
consistency however, prices and more importantly, financing was prohibitive.


Airbus has a competitive aircraft in the 318/219/320/321 albeit not
consistent with present fleet configuration.

Essentially, the deciding factor is price and financing. In an effort to
secure the aircraft contract, Airbus offered some attractive financing that
Boeing wasn't unwilling to match.

As TWA has now been purchased by American Airlines, the Airbus aircraft
contract has been cancelled since that aircraft doesn't fit American's fleet
type either.>>

I recieved this as an email from a TWA Employee. This should answer all questions.

--CrItTeR
 
Red Panda
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RE: TWA A318: Cancelled.

Fri Jun 08, 2001 2:23 am

TWA is getting 717 already. btw, AA is gonna take over TWA, AA may not like acfts built by Airbus.

r panda
 
GOT
Posts: 1843
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RE: TWA A318: Cancelled.

Fri Jun 08, 2001 2:42 am

Sad for Airbus, they need costumers when they introduce a new a/C on the market.

GOT
Just like birdwatching - without having to be so damned quiet!
 
JAL
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RE: TWA A318: Cancelled.

Fri Jun 08, 2001 2:45 am

It's no big surprise that TWA's order for the A318 has been cancelled by AA.
Work Hard But Play Harder
 
RIX
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RE: TWA A318: Cancelled.

Fri Jun 08, 2001 5:13 am

All right, A318 will survive anyway - with more headache for AI, though. BTW, the deciding factor is price and financing is quite interesting: I don't care if Airbus gets government support for better financing but I do care if Boeing can't get it and so loses sales. As an American taxpayer I think the US government should support one of the country biggest and advanced producers - it will pay back much more. Who cares if someone may call it "socialism" - it is a bad idea to keep everything 100% private, and, AFAIK, energy crisis in California shows it pretty well...
 
Joni
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RE: TWA A318: Cancelled.

Fri Jun 08, 2001 5:24 am


RIX,

As you probably know, the US government does indeed support Boeing.

 
DeltaSFO
Posts: 2407
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2000 11:22 am

RE: TWA A318: Cancelled.

Fri Jun 08, 2001 5:31 am

All right, A318 will survive anyway

Hmmm.... don't be so sure.
It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.
 
Guest

RE: TWA A318: Cancelled.

Fri Jun 08, 2001 5:33 am

Joni,

The main section of Boeing supported by the US Government is the Military part, not the Commerical part. The whole Airbus company is supported by the European government.
 
redraider
Posts: 515
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2000 3:40 am

RE: TWA A318: Cancelled.

Fri Jun 08, 2001 5:36 am

Did I miss something? Is this really news? I thought the cancellation happened a few months ago?
My wife can't wrestle, but you should see her box.
 
RIX
Posts: 1590
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2000 4:46 am

RE: TWA A318: Cancelled.

Fri Jun 08, 2001 5:52 am

DeltaSFO,

all right, let me say "I hope so".

Joni,

please don't play with the words. I'm not talking about government support in general but only in financing during sales. If you know something about this for Boeing then please tell this to everybody providing the source. Otherwise you'd better stay silent if you have nothing positive to say.
 
SegmentKing
Posts: 3224
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2000 7:16 am

RE: TWA A318: Cancelled.

Fri Jun 08, 2001 6:21 am

Funny that the US Government won't really help underwrite orders for US aircraft, but will gladly underwrite orders for regionals who replace props with jets...

interesting note is that at present, no US companies are manufacturing regional jets!

how's that for a kicker?
~ ~ ~ ~ pRoFeSsIoNaL hUrRiCaNe DoDgEr ~ ~ ~ ~
 
flight152
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RE: TWA A318: Cancelled.

Fri Jun 08, 2001 6:24 am

How many A318's did TWA have on order?
 
YoungDon
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RE: TWA A318: Cancelled.

Fri Jun 08, 2001 7:06 am

Flight152,
If I'm not mistaken, TWA had 50 on order with 50 options.

I do think the A318 will survive, and it probably will net more orders than the 717 in the long run because of fleet commonality with the rest of the A320 family. I'm expecting big orders from Swissair, US Airways, and Northwest, and maybe even United.

Don
 
AlaskaMVP
Posts: 145
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RE: TWA A318: Cancelled.

Fri Jun 08, 2001 7:20 am

>As an American taxpayer I think the US government
> should support one of the country biggest and >
> advanced producers - it will pay back much more.
> Who cares if someone may call it "socialism" - it is a
> bad idea to keep everything 100% private, and,
> AFAIK, energy crisis in California shows it pretty well...

The energy crisis in California shows the dangers of government intervention. The government fixed the price Power Companies could sell power at (while giving rate payers a 10% rate cut), and let the price they paid for power rise freely.

When rising energy prices started to force power companies under this half baked system into bankruptcy, no power producer outside of the state is stupid enough to sell them power for less than a 10x markup, because they all know they'll never get paid more than pennies on the dollar in bankruptcy court. Governer Dumass, I mean Davis, has already tried to strong arm out of state energy companies (that are keeping his industry alive) into write downs. Meanwhile CA consumers continue to consume power merrily at high rates because their prices remain cheap...

RIX, if you truly are a U.S taxpayer, you should know that you hardly live in a "100% private" world. Half of U.S. GNP is already spent by federal, state & local government, and that percentage is going up, not down. If you want to support Boeing, write them a check yourself, don't force me to pay at the point of a gun (which is what taxation is). Subsidies aside, Boeing isn't having trouble competing, now that they fixed their manufacturing processes (thanks to Airbus's competition).

Don't get me wrong, I love Boeing & the planes they make, but no corporation in the U.S. is made better by giving them handouts, witness Amtrak!
 
D L X
Posts: 11696
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RE: TWA A318: Cancelled.

Fri Jun 08, 2001 11:19 am

"I do think the A318 will survive, and it probably will net more orders than the 717 in the long run because of fleet commonality with the rest of the A320 family."

Hmm. Commonality doesn't seem to do much for the 737-600. I think that the market for a heavy 100 seater just isn't that great right now. Now that TWA's order has been closed, the 318 is in big trouble. Fortunately for Airbus, most of the work on it had already been done when the other 320s were designed, and development costs were low. But, right now, it looks like even the 380 is going to outsell the 318.

BTW, an AA buyout of TW might be the best thing that ever happened to the 717 program. Remember those 75 F100s? They're going to need replacement someday...
 
IMissPiedmont
Posts: 6200
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 12:58 pm

RE: TWA A318: Cancelled.

Fri Jun 08, 2001 12:14 pm

Let's not forget the 50 F.28-0100s that will probably end up in AAs fleet from US. Never mind that the UA-US merger won't happen, they will be sold to someone. No other airline can take them, sadly AA is the only major operator of the F100. I stated in a different post that AA can only replace them with 717s. The A318, although a great airplane, is not the same as a 717. The A318 is designed for mid-range routes with low load factors. The 717 can operate 150 mile routes as well as 1000 mile routes profitably with few passengers. I think the A318 will survive just fine for the 1000 to 2000 mile routes that do not justify 150 seat aircraft. There is enough market for both.

PS : AA likes the Airbus just fine. Not a choice of manufacturer, rather a choice of fleet commomality. An airline must choose.

Just my opinion, Disagreements respected.
:D
The day you stop learning is the day you should die.
 
PHX Flyer
Posts: 541
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RE: TWA B717: Cancelled.

Fri Jun 08, 2001 12:30 pm

<< BTW, an AA buyout of TW might be the best thing that ever happened to the 717 program. Remember those 75 F100s? >>


Just to bring you up to speed: AA cancelled TWA's B717 order too. Eventually, the B737-800 will be the smallest aircraft in AA's mainline fleet.
 
lymanm
Posts: 1100
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2001 2:30 pm

AA & Airbus

Fri Jun 08, 2001 12:40 pm

People, remember that AA operates quite a number of A300-600s, so to say that Airbus types would not fit into the AA fleet is technically incorrect.

Yes, I agree that the A318 is substantially different from the A300.
buhh bye
 
Guest

RE: AA & Airbus

Fri Jun 08, 2001 12:55 pm

PHX Flyer,

AA is going to take around 20 717s I think out of the TWA order.

Lymanm,

AA recently order 15 767-300ERs to phase out the rest of the Airbus A300s. Besides, the A300 doesn't have any commonality with new Airbus cockpits today, so AA is really not likely to order any Airbus at all.
 
aa737
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RE: TWA A318: Cancelled.

Fri Jun 08, 2001 1:55 pm

This is somewhat off topic, but relates to the post above. Instead of replaceing the A300s with 767s I believe AA ordered more 767s so replace the A300s over the atlantic, but the A300s will stay in the AA fleet flying around the carribean where it is best suited.
 
dynkrisolo
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Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2001 12:12 am

RE: TWA A318: Cancelled.

Fri Jun 08, 2001 8:07 pm

The B767 order is mostly for replacing the B767s currently being operated by TWA which don't use the same engine as AA's B767s. A few will be used to replace the A300s being used by AA on the trans-Atlantic routes as Aa737 has pointed out.
 
Udo
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The A318 Will Survive

Fri Jun 08, 2001 8:31 pm

Absolutely right, AA will only replace the Atlantic-ops A300s with new B763s. AA will continue to operate the A300 on Latin America flights.

A318: I really think that aircraft will get more orders than many others out there. There are already potent customers, including British Airways, Air France, America West, Air China and Frontier. And I expect many others to follow who already operate the A320 family. United, Northwest, Swissair, US Airways (if they survive), Iberia, Air Canada just to name some. The A318's higher operation costs compared to the B717 are of no interest if you already operate a large A32X fleet.
And there are many B737 classics (especially -500s!) that have to be replaced one day...

Don't compare possible A318 sale problems with the B736's fate. There might be other reasons why the B736 doesn't sell...Boeing's sale tactics for example: think of Frontier who wanted B736s but Boeing wanted them to order -700s, result is known...

Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
dynkrisolo
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RE: TWA A318: Cancelled.

Fri Jun 08, 2001 8:45 pm

The A318 was selling well because Airbus and P&W were too eager to discount the aircraft and the new PW6000 engines. If weren't for those heavy discounts, the A318 would just be like the B736: not many would want an over-designed, over-capable, over-weight airplane. In the US, there are very few trans-continental routes that need 100-seat aircraft. If I don't have needs for trans-continental capabilities, the extra range the A318 or B736 can offer over the B717 is meaningless. Then, why do I want an aircraft that will carry 40% extra fuel than the B717? Anyhow, the A320 family itself has been very successful, so Airbus doesn't need the A318 to be a spectacular seller. It's just additional business for Airbus, and so is the B736 for Boeing. OTOH, the B717 is in a totally different situation. If Boeing can't get new orders, then the future of the B717 is extremely bleak.
 
deltairlines
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RE: TWA A318: Cancelled.

Fri Jun 08, 2001 9:53 pm

Expect Delta to place a relatively large order for the 736 and 73G once the economy gets a little better and the labour situation is under control. The 732s they have are getting expensive to operate, and they will need those planes on the Express routes.

Jeff
 
D L X
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RE: TWA A318: Cancelled.

Sat Jun 09, 2001 1:03 am

You know Udo, it's been a long time since I've put you in your place.  Big grin j/k

"The A318's higher operation costs compared to the B717 are of no interest if you already operate a large A32X fleet"

I beg to differ. The 318's operating costs will most likely be much higher than the 717. You are correct if the fleet is going to be very small. BUT, if the fleet is over 50 planes (iirc, the magic number Stephen Wolf cited for fleet savings), the 717 bests the 318 even when you have other 320 series.


"Don't compare possible A318 sale problems with the B736's fate. There might be other reasons why the B736 doesn't sell..."

Umm, you're REALLY reaching on this one. 318 and 736 are the same market. Simple as that. Therefore, they are comparable. Boeing has not been able to sell the 736 to airlines with large 737NG fleets. Not even DL, AA, and CO. Why not? Majors don't want a heavy 100 seater.

BTW, one last note: While I could possibly see UA getting them for thin long routes like SFO-MHT or IAD-SMF, US has no use for them at all with their route structure at this point. You simply would be throwing money away by using a "Fat 100" on BOS-ITH or HSV-CLT.
 
akelley728
Posts: 1968
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 1999 12:35 pm

RE: TWA A318: Cancelled.

Sat Jun 09, 2001 1:41 am

DeltAirlines:

If you look at the new contract for Delta Pilots and the wage scales for their different aircraft you will see a line that says 737-700 (Express).

Based on that I don't think you'll be seeing the 737-600 in Delta's fleet.

 
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RayChuang
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RE: TWA A318: Cancelled.

Sat Jun 09, 2001 1:57 am

I think that both UA and NW are seriously looking at buying the A318 once the economy improves.

UA will buy the plane to finally rid themselves of the 737-200, and NW will buy the plane to replace the aging DC-9-30 fleet. UA will order around 40-45 planes, and NW will order 55-60 planes. Fleet commonality are not issues given the A319/A320 fleets both UA and NW operate.
 
RIX
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Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2000 4:46 am

RE:

Sat Jun 09, 2001 2:13 am

Well, saying "AFAIK" I assumed I might be wrong... the idea was not to keep things "too private" for its own sake. I never said "we live in a 100% private world"... and I don't force anybody to pay anything  Smile. write them a check yourself - nor should you force me!  Smile

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