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Sat Jun 09, 2001 12:28 am

I have come up with a solution on how to fix the congestion at LGA
We buid a new runway.
To do this the Grand Central Parkway will have to be put into a 2 mile tunnel, and on top of that a new runway can be built. Exits 9-11 will come out on the terminal side. The project will take 3 years or so and cost about $35 Million.
What do you think.
"Traveling light is the only way to fly" - Eric Clapton


Sat Jun 09, 2001 12:55 am

Add a 0 to that number for the correct construction price, and another 0 to deal with the NIMBY's


Sat Jun 09, 2001 12:57 am

Better yet, why don't they build the runway under the Grand Central and the planes can fly in and out of openings at either end of the runway. Then they could build two big bridges over the access roads and into the terminal area. Then they could build another big tunnel to eastern Pennsylvania where they could build as many runways as they want. This could all be done in 6 months and only cost $1,000,000.
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Sat Jun 09, 2001 1:52 am

How about this..
Instead of building a stadium in downtown Manhattan.. how about a commuter airport... It worked in London with LCY..
If they build a terminal where the stadium would be, and re-claim land from the Hudson for a runway you could have a very nice airport for commuter planes.... and deliver business folks right into the heart of NYC..

Then prohibit any commuter planes from landing in LGA, EWR or JFK and go from there..
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Sat Jun 09, 2001 2:29 am

To the original idea: Have you heard of Boston's Big Dig? Put two miles of the I-93 under ground. It's already taken 10 years and has 5 more left. It currently has a cost of $15 billion. The Feds aren't going to make that mistake again.

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Sat Jun 09, 2001 3:32 am

Or you can save the $$$, and have DL and US move their shuttle operations to Teterboro.
Matt D
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Sat Jun 09, 2001 3:52 am

I don't think that any kind of major changes are in the cards anytime soon. Not only are the three major airports, but the entire 5 Boroughs (sp?) of New York City as well are so hopelessly overdeveloped and inefficiently laid out and , that you New Yorkers are pretty much stuck with what you have. Nothing short of Eminent Domain, and lots of bulldozers on a grand scale obliterating literally whole square miles of area at a time, with no regard to the NIMBY's, and starting over, will you ever see any improvement.
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Sat Jun 09, 2001 4:01 am

How about extending runways both runways further out into the water to allow for a little more fudge room during bad weather. Then you can also build a commuter airport on the site of old Flushing Airport to handle commuter aircraft. Link the two airports together with a tram system like most airports have today. Between having less missed approaches because of runway length and having the smaller traffic on seperate patterns, I would think it would go a long way to eliminating some of the congestion that LGA suffers, and it would be the least costly way to do it.
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Sat Jun 09, 2001 4:07 am

Maybe my experiences are atypical, but I rarely get delayed flying out of JFK. In contrast, delays and even cancellations are common at LGA. And unless you're leaving on an early-AM flight out of EWR, delays are probably in the cards there too.

H. Simpson
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Sat Jun 09, 2001 6:39 am

Building a runway on GCP will only make things worse(although GCp is only two blocks from my home! Smile/happy/getting dizzy) If airplane depart on the then it had to make a sharp turn like runway 13 to avoid JFK slow heavies. On the other direction, Bronx residents will be very annoyed by that 3 directions deparing traffic.

Conclusion: the only way to solve LGA traffic crisis is to do nothing!

What do u think?
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Sat Jun 09, 2001 8:05 am

Forget about the first idea not only will it make the $15 billion dollar big dig in Boston look like a pot hole repair project but it would ruin the lives of the residents of Queens who live very close to LGA . Also construction would disrupt one of the busiest roads in the country for years and aircraft noise would become intollerable at the US Open complex and Shea stadium. And for what so their would'nt be flight delays?...

What about vehicle traffic delays,it affects way more people a day than LGA's air traffic delays affect in a year.

The best solution is to add capacity to EWR and JFK,encourage rail travel especially in the North East on high speed rail and develop Islip,and Newburgh.

The only answer to add capacity at LGA would be to remove the jail and buildings on Rikers Island and fill in the short distance between LGA and Rikers Island so as to expand the airport onto Rikers Island and out into Flushing bay.

The big probelm with that is that where would you move the largest jail in the country,it's on an island with a long bridge as the access to land. There are no other suitible islands in NYC to place a new NYC jail. No one out of the City will want a City prison,and no politician will allow it to be built on land in their borough.

There's Governor's Island,but that is probably the most valuable piece of realestate in the Country,who the heck is going to put a prison on it.

The only answer is to expand EWR either by demolitioning some nearby warehouses and homes or moving the airport to an area with room to grow like the Meadowlands which would be just as close to Manhattan as LGA. However the Meadowlands is a unique ecosystem,and building there is very prohibitive.

As for JFK,you can't move it so you might as well try using technology to improve operations and the Airtrain will help too.

The Port Authority will not allow Boeing Business Jets to land at Teterboro,so there's no way their going to let commericial airlines in even RJs.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
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Sat Jun 09, 2001 9:13 am

Check out an old OAG or Allegheny system timetable and you will get a clue on how to relieve the congestion at Laguardia:

Require the airlines who wish to keep landing priveleges there to fly their jets through to the mid-sized eastern cities as well, thereby eliminating the need for all these commuter aircraft carrying only ten or twenty passengers.

It's ridiculous. As of last year, Albany NY (a fairly big city, and the capital of the state), had about 20 "puddle-jumpers" a day ferrying passengers to NYC so they could connect with another flight. Many of these little planes go to Laguardia, if they don't go there, they are clogging other NYC airports. Check about 20 years back, you had six daily jets flying that route. Now multiply that by about 40 cities getting these little planes in and out of NYC airports, and you can see the scope of the problem.

Given the congested situation there, they should put like a 90-seat minimum for aircraft flying out of New York.

The way my example would work, lets take American Airlines, who flies to Laguardia from Chicago and Dallas and a few other places. Right now their planes land there, turn and head back west. But under this proposal, some of those planes would then fly on to different cities, one to Albany, maybe another to Providence, Burlington Vermont or whereever. It would then return to Laguardia heading west. A few jets to these smaller cities would replace numerous small aircraft, saving each NYC airport at least 100 flights a day.

This proposal would be designed to work with the others which I recommended in my response to Timothy Ravich's article "Flight or Fight".

These proposals would at least mitigate LGA's problems as well as those of many other congested airports.

Like another post stated, the only other way would be to tear down a lot of the city and start over. And having lived in New York for six years, I don't really feel the layout of the city or the airports is the problem, it is the way they are being used (or abused) by the big airlines!

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Sat Jun 09, 2001 9:56 am

Everyone should face it. All three NYC area airports are poorly laid out.

First, I'll address the NYC airports (LGA and JFK). LGA and JFK both have horrible runway configurations. LGA could handle more traffic if it had parallel runways instead of crisscrossing runways, but that will never happen. The answer lies in JFK. JFK is, in fact, the airport that could hypothetically have its entire configuration redone. What could happen is that it could have a terminal layout similar to that of Atlanta, but maybe only three or four satellites, instead of the six at Atlanta. With the extra longitudinal room, another parallel runway to 13/31/L/R could be built, abolishing the need for 4R/22L. Then 4L/22R could stay as a reliever runway for smaller, lighter aircraft. Also, some sort of direct airport monorail or subway shuttle should be built to shuttle passengers ONLY between JFK and LGA, and then some domestic flights should be transferred from overcrowded LGA to newly efficient JFK, relieving LGA and taking advantage of new room at JFK. Also, I agree that no aircraft smaller than maybe an ARJ (69 seats with NW) should be allowed to use LGA and JFK airports. Of course this will never happen because it would cost well into the billions to do, and would cripple air capacity at JFK during reconfiguration.

Now for the answer to EWR's congestion, which is nearly the same, but with a couple of critical distances. EWR does not have the room to be reconfigured, so it will have to make do with it's current capacity. The key is in a small airport in NE New Jersey, and one that I lived rather close to for five years- Teterboro. So here's my idea. The NJ Port Authority does not like jets to operate out of Teterboro, but they could easily be pressured into allowing TEB to become a commuter port. And what carrier that we all know and *cough, cough* love operates a huge commuter operation at EWR. Continental Express. If all Continental Express flights were operated out of TEB, that would eliminate at least 150 (or more?) flights a day at EWR, lessening the chance that one would be at the end of one of those 20-plane long lines for takeoff. TEB has two runways, both over 6,000 feet long and 150 feet wide, ideal for Continental Express' fleet of ERJ's. I'm not sure if they crisscross or not, but TEB could probably handle about 40-60 operations per hour (I'm being optimistic) with decreased activity at EWR. This creates much more room for growth for Continental Express out of the NE New Jersey market and other commuter carriers would have to use the TEB airport, further relieving congestion at EWR, as well as JFK and LGA. The only missing link would be a direct shuttle link between EWR and TEB, (like the one I mentioned in the first paragraph). This would make connecting a little bit more of a headache, but one who was flying ROC-DFW on CO could fly ROC-TEB on Express, then take the train or subway or whatever to EWR, then take a CO flight to DFW out of EWR. Continental would dislike this though, because it would cost the carrier mucho dinero to shift its flight schedules to suit connections from TEB-EWR. But CO does not have to worry, because the Port Authority will not spend the billions to make this plan reality.

If something like this was to happen, NYC travelers could definently have a better travel experience, but a combination of economics, NIMBYs, and politics would doom this plan were it ever to come close to being reality.

Tell me what you think!
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Sat Jun 09, 2001 3:10 pm

If you move EWR to the Meadowlands area you could do what everyone in that part of Bergen County wants,to close Teterboro.

The Nets and the Devils are already moving to Newark,I would also build a new stadium for the Jets and Giants in Newark as well as a Nascar track and a new Horse track to replace the Meadowlands.

There's plenty of room around the Meadowlands and the surrounding area,plus its alot closer to Manhattan. It's even closer than LGA depending how you configure it,5 runways four pararell runways for arrivals and departures between 9,000-12,000 ft long and a 6,000-7,000ft General aviation/commuter runway.

The area links with NEC Amtrak and NJ Transit trains at the new Seacucus transfer set to open next year and also direct access on the Bergen and Main line.

The space is there in the Meadowlands,it's the largest underdeveloped piece of property thats also 9 miles or less away from Manhattan.

The only problem would be enviromental concerns,but depending on the layout and how much you build over the current Meadowlands sports complex might save it from other developers who would put a mall or something there.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
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Sat Jun 09, 2001 9:11 pm

I don't think Teterboro as a commuter for Continental Express would work because there is NO mass transit to Newark or New York city from there other than a few local NJTransit busses.

The idea of growing Stewart and Islip (and let's not forget Trenton for business people who want to go to the suburban office parks of Princeton or elsewhere) would definitely help LGA and EWR. However commuter rail lines are essential.

If there was masss transit to JFK (A subway, not the airtrain and LIRR to Jamaica) then JFK would be more attractive for domestic ops.

Finally in regards to LGA, since I believe the problem isn't capacity at the airport but two short intersecting runways (pls correct gently if I am wrong), perhaps instead of building to Rikers, how about building the other way extending the runway into Flushing bay?
Of course even if the runways don't cross each other, they will still sort of be too close.

And finally since NIMBYism is so ripe, NOTHING WILL GET DONE! I am actually shocked airtrain got built. The only reason the monorail and the rail link got built at EWR is because the area around it is primarily industrial.
Warehouses don't vote.

Things will only get done when the entire NY metro area becomes economically depressed because of the situation of the airports.
I may be ugly. I may be an American. But don't call me an ugly American.
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Sat Jun 09, 2001 10:08 pm

the study to do it will take 3 years and cost $35m !!

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Sat Jun 09, 2001 10:20 pm

Most of these ideas are great. The big three are either at or nearing their limit for growth. The best thing they can do now is look at other airports to expand in like TTN, Islip, Stewart for domestic traffic. LGA needs a break as well as a remodeling job. I also hope that the PA or whoever will oversee the project will put in better rail and bus service to NYC. Commuter rail is quite important especially in NJ where it is viewed as a lifeline. TTN can only handle domestic along with others so I think EWR and LGA domestic can fit into these airports to relieve the tension. The pax can still get to NYC in a timely fashion say 30-45 min once they have better rail/bus service.
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Sat Jun 09, 2001 11:40 pm

I dont think anyone mentioned ISP. Customers looking to fly to Florida destinations should be encouraged to fly out of ISP. From ISP, one can fly to practically every Florida destination DIRECTLY. Jacksonville, Tampa, Orlando, West Palm Beach and Fort Lauderdale are all available out of ISP from Delta or Southwest. If Delta ever decides to upgrade to mainline service at ISP, I think ISP could become a viable option to Florida. Metrojet could easily be added at ISP as well. If ISP can somehow draw the Florida crowd from LGA and JFK, I think that would help congestion there a great deal. ISP has specialized in low fair Florida travel for a long time now. If the leisure travelers would travel out to ISP to go to Florida, then LGA and JFK can concentrate on business travel. Just a little food for thought.
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Sat Jun 09, 2001 11:47 pm

ISP is too far and transportation links there are not that good. You are forgetting that the New York
metro area is huge and the three main airports, as
bad as they can be, are relatively close to the bulk
of the region's population.

As for the $35MM proposal for LGA, forget it. The
corruption, bureaucracy, and stupidity that is this
city's government would double or triple the price
and take years to fix.

LGA will have to remain a slot constrained airport
and priority should be given to airlines and flights
to major business destinations and hubs. Airlines
like Spirit, even ATA and some flights operated by
DL, US, CO, and so forth should be relegated to
JFK or EWR. There is no way to expand LGA and
the likelihood of a replacement airport is 0.

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Sat Jun 09, 2001 11:48 pm

I'm European and few weeks ago I was in NYC and Washington. I was very surprise why between NYC and Washington and Boston you use a shuttle plane service in spite of a modern and efficient high-speed railway.That's means more free slots for flights to West.Yesterday in France was finally open the last part of the high speed railway Paris-Marseille 465miles in 3 hours. So if you think about the distance between NYC and Washington......

Also with the stop in Newark passenger from Baltimore,Philadelphia,Trenton can be connected to all international flights from EWR.

But a fast railway is very expensive and I don't think in U.S. the govern pay for it.So finally a new airport is the best solution.

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Sun Jun 10, 2001 12:12 am

In the United States the Government doesn't want to fund money losing programs,in Europe they subsidize heavily.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757

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