United747-200
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Look At This UA 744...Winglet Missing?

Sun Jun 10, 2001 5:04 am

Hi, look at these two pictures and tell me what's wrong...
Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Christopher Smay



Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Christopher Smay


The winglet on the pilot's side is gone. How do they take off a winglet? Did it need to be repaired? Please help me out. Thanks!

United747-200
 
Tg 747-300
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RE: Look At This UA 744...Winglet Missing?

Sun Jun 10, 2001 5:09 am

If i don't remember wrong, this a/c was involved in a incident somewere in Asia or Oceania, which caused the winglet to be removed before flying the bird (on regular scheduled pax flight) bak to the US.

Hope I wasn't wrong

tg 747-300
intentionally left blank
 
Mr Spaceman
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RE: Look At This UA 744...Winglet Missing?

Sun Jun 10, 2001 5:13 am

Hi there, I know that all Airliners have a "Minimum Equipment List" [MEL], however I never thought that a "Winglet" could ever be an item that was NOT required before take off! Pretty Amazing!

Chris
"Just a minute while I re-invent myself"
 
airplanetire
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RE: Look At This UA 744...Winglet Missing?

Sun Jun 10, 2001 5:15 am

That is really weird that it doesn't have a winglet. I wonder if that is safe to fly like that. It must be because that plane is about to depart. Why is a 744 flying domestic from Denver to Chicago? Airlines don't usually fly that big of a plane on domestic flights in the US except to Hawaii and that one is going to Chicago. Did it come in from Asia or some other place and is going on to Chicago?
 
flyf15
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RE: Look At This UA 744...Winglet Missing?

Sun Jun 10, 2001 5:31 am

United has often in the past had a great deal of intra hub routes with 747s, although currently they are mostly flown by 767s and 777s.
 
VC-10
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RE: Look At This UA 744...Winglet Missing?

Sun Jun 10, 2001 5:40 am

This is not an MEL item, it is covered in the CDL (Configuration Deviation List). The CDL lists what panels/fairings the a/c can fly without & any fuel/speed/weight penalties the missing item incurs.

In this particular case the CDL says all -400's (except 400D) can dispatch with one winglet missing provided the performance limited weights are reduced by:-

T.O. & Ldg - 9435 Kg

En-route Clb - 4536 Kg

No I don't what is special about the D model
 
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apuneger
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RE: Look At This UA 744...Winglet Missing?

Sun Jun 10, 2001 5:42 am

This problem was also discussed in an older topic. If I remember well, it's possible to fly the aircraft with one or two winglets being removed.

However, I wonder if, flying this aircraft with only one winglet, this doesn't cause assymetric problems. Wouldn't it be better to remove BOTH winglets? Or does even one winglet cause a noticeable increase in performance, and hardly any problems for flying this bird?

Ivan
Ivan Coninx - Brussels Aviation Photography
 
VC-10
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RE: Look At This UA 744...Winglet Missing?

Sun Jun 10, 2001 5:45 am

Apuneger,

I think I have answered your question.
 
Mac
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RE: Look At This UA 744...Winglet Missing?

Sun Jun 10, 2001 6:09 am

With all due respect to all, I will not let myself be led to believe that a 747 or any other aircraft leased by or belonging to a major U.S. airline would be allowed clearance to fly without proper wing configuration...such as a winglet.

Again, with respect, the author of this picture is mistaken when he says that this aircraft had just finished pushback for departure.

By a very great deal of stretching the imagination, the plane could have been on a special ferry flight, without passengers, to an overhaul center.

And my last remaining thought is that if the above is incorrect, than someone is carrying off some black magic produced by computer magic.

I say all of this with good intentions and without any malice what so ever.

Mac aka Doug Vernon
 
AC_B777
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RE: Look At This UA 744...Winglet Missing?

Sun Jun 10, 2001 6:18 am

Hi all,

This topic has been discussed a few times here on the forum.
Yes, it is possible for a 744 to fly with one winglet missing. It all depends on what the MEL (Minimum Equipent List) or as VC-10 mentioned, the CDL (Configuration Deviation List) says and requires.
Air Canada had a 744 flying for a while with the right winglet missing. This is safe to do.
The performance of the a/c will suffer a little in terms of fuel economy and range. There's probably also some minor changes with weight and balance of the plane as well as some small aerodynamic differences, however, nothing major that would ground the a/c unless the wing itself was damaged.

AC_B777
In life, some days you are the bug..... some days you are the windshield!
 
United747-200
Topic Author
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RE: Look At This UA 744...Winglet Missing?

Sun Jun 10, 2001 6:34 am

Mac,
You have many good points, but I thought I'd tell you that the aircraft was indeed backing up. You can clearly see the tire tracks in the light snow.

United747-200
 
VC-10
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RE: Look At This UA 744...Winglet Missing?

Sun Jun 10, 2001 6:39 am

Mac,

Why won't you believe what I have quoted from the CDL that is published by Boeing, the a/c manufacturer, and approved by the FAA?
 
jet_guy
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RE: Look At This UA 744...Winglet Missing?

Sun Jun 10, 2001 6:42 am

A UA 744 flew AKL-LAX without both winglets when it was pushed back into the terminal, I dont know if it flew pax. back to LAX though. As this happened only last month, and those pics taken in '96 it isnt the same plane!!

Sam  Big thumbs up
 
n907cl
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RE: Look At This UA 744...Winglet Missing?

Sun Jun 10, 2001 6:47 am

The other aircraft talked about was:

Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Ryan Chow

Brian
 
jet_guy
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RE: Look At This UA 744...Winglet Missing?

Sun Jun 10, 2001 6:59 am

That 744 looks a bit worse for wear!
No winglet, and a non-CX nose cone.
I would have loved to see that C-130 Herc, thats in the background, flying the checkboard approach into Kai Tak.

Sam
 
fbwless
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RE: Look At This UA 744...Winglet Missing?

Sun Jun 10, 2001 7:17 am

The nose cone is in the new CX livery.
 
Red Panda
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RE: Look At This UA 744...Winglet Missing?

Sun Jun 10, 2001 7:26 am

Those are not new pix. This has been discussed before. But for those who don't know about it, this particular 744 was to participate in a test w/o winglets to see if the winglets really matter to fuel consumption.

Winglets are not in MEL. For someone (forgot your name, sorry) who doesn't know why 744D is an exception, 744D doesn't have any winglet at all. So, which just not apply to the D-model.

hope this help
r panda
 
VC-10
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RE: Look At This UA 744...Winglet Missing?

Sun Jun 10, 2001 7:30 am

Red Panda,

I said it wasn't in the MEL, it's in the CDL
 
ben88
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RE: Look At This UA 744...Winglet Missing?

Sun Jun 10, 2001 7:37 am

This discussion should be over. The 744 (non d) can fly without one winglet with certain weight limitations. I understood it the first time VC-10 explained it. Can't argue with manufacturer data.
 
VC-10
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RE: Look At This UA 744...Winglet Missing?

Sun Jun 10, 2001 7:50 am

This is what pisses me off about this site, you quote official data and unqualified people still think they know better.
 
lmml 14/32
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RE: Look At This UA 744...Winglet Missing?

Sun Jun 10, 2001 8:37 am

The first time I heard of a B744 flying without one winglet was a few years back when BA flew one for a few weeks. There is only a fuel penalty as a consequence.
 
Guest

RE: Look At This UA 744...Winglet Missing?

Sun Jun 10, 2001 12:53 pm

Dont you just love it, a QUALIFIED AND EXPERIENCED aircraft engineer has just quoted the OFFICIAL BOEING CDL and nobody believes him!!!!!!!!!

VC10 i would jump in and back you up, but they probably wouldnt believe me either!

Anyone want the CDL page reference?

As for Doug, you would be extremely surprised at how we are allowed to operate aircraft under FAR121.
 
yqfca
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RE: Look At This UA 744...Winglet Missing?

Sun Jun 10, 2001 1:04 pm

I have seen a photo of a Lufthansa 747-400 doing a routine flight FRA-LAX with one winglet and back, in I believe it was ACARS International. It's no big deal.
 
We're Nuts
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RE: Look At This UA 744...Winglet Missing?

Sun Jun 10, 2001 1:45 pm

Actually, a friend of my former roommate's cousin's uncle (who, during a period between Dec. '89 and Jan. '90, worked for Boeing) told me that the 747 in question crashed shortly after takeoff because the pilots did not perform a walkaround OR go over the winglet checklist. So according to him, a 747 CAN'T fly without both winglets. Insane
Dear moderators: No.
 
rendezvous
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RE: Look At This UA 744...Winglet Missing?

Sun Jun 10, 2001 2:08 pm

The 747-400D manages without them...
 
Guest

RE: Look At This UA 744...Winglet Missing?

Sun Jun 10, 2001 3:01 pm

We're Nuts,

"A friend of my formers roommates cousins uncle" is definitely a reliable source!

I'm glad that the world of aviation works on FACTS and not hearsay, check out the B747-400 Dispatch Deviations Guide, Section 3, CDL. ATA57 Wings.
Number 57-28-1, Item Winglets. You will find that VC10 was right.

Did it ever dawn on you to check if UA ever had a B744 crash? Could you also explain what is the "winglet checklist"?

End of rant.......
 
We're Nuts
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RE: Look At This UA 744...Winglet Missing?

Sun Jun 10, 2001 3:12 pm

 Insane

Explain this.
Dear moderators: No.
 
G-CIVP
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RE: Look At This UA 744...Winglet Missing?

Sun Jun 10, 2001 7:03 pm

VC-10 are you holding your head in your hands? Or banging it against a brick wall?

We're Nuts, please elaborate on your B747 crash in 1989.

 
L-188
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RE: Look At This UA 744...Winglet Missing?

Sun Jun 10, 2001 7:14 pm

I dunno what to say.

There are cases where the book is wrong or you can do things outside the book.....

But this ain't one of them...

VC-10...I would suggest giving up and downing a beer. If they haven't listened now. I doubt they ever will.

Yeah...WN I want to hear more of this 89 -400 crash.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
philb
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RE: Look At This UA 744...Winglet Missing?

Sun Jun 10, 2001 7:30 pm

The few of us who post FACTS here, rather than ill-informed assumptions, statements based on hearsay such as :

"my great uncle's 20 year old Mistress, who works as a toilet cleaner in the Boeing Eexec Suite, overheard..."

and misinformed jingoistic nonsense viz:-

"With all due respect to all, I will not let myself be led to believe that a 747 or any other aircraft leased by or belonging to a major U.S. airline would be allowed clearance to fly without proper wing onfiguration...such as a winglet."

should petition the administration for a "Dick Head Users List" on all profiles.


 
Bluebellya380
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RE: Look At This UA 744...Winglet Missing?

Sun Jun 10, 2001 8:47 pm

I just saw this (or similar) aircraft in TPE last week. Since I could only see it from the port side, I figured that this must have been the case from the earlier post since UA never flew 743s or (as far as I know) 742SUDs, n'est pas?
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: Look At This UA 744...Winglet Missing?

Sun Jun 10, 2001 10:24 pm

I seen a Northwest 744 at DTW last summer that was missing a winglet
 
airmale
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RE: Look At This UA 744...Winglet Missing?

Sun Jun 10, 2001 11:33 pm

Wasnt this a test carried out by UA to see if the 744s performance was affected minus the winglet, I believe they were surprised to note no change Smile
.....up there with the best!
 
yqfca
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RE: Look At This UA 744...Winglet Missing?

Mon Jun 11, 2001 12:06 am

Fact 1: A747-400 can fly without one or both winglets, period.
As for effectiveness is concerned, Boeing is redesigning the winglet for the 747-500. So........
Fact 2: There is room for imrovement.
Subject closed.
 
Guest

RE: Look At This UA 744...Winglet Missing?

Mon Jun 11, 2001 12:52 am

Hah, 747-500...
 
We're Nuts
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RE: Look At This UA 744...Winglet Missing?

Mon Jun 11, 2001 12:56 am

Oh my God, some of you people still think my post was serious. Even after TWO " Insane" you still don't think I was joking! That's pathetic, folks. I guess there are too many new users here who don't know that I have a great sense of humor. Well for future reference, I do.

Could someone please confirm that they now understand I was only joking?



A very baffled We're Nuts.
Dear moderators: No.
 
philb
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RE: Look At This UA 744...Winglet Missing?

Mon Jun 11, 2001 1:04 am

Yup, coming from you, in that mode it had to be a spoof  Smile , but too many posts of that nature are serious - unfortunately  Sad
 
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Crosswind
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RE: Look At This UA 744...Winglet Missing?

Mon Jun 11, 2001 2:19 am

I get so pissed off when someone answers a question, answers it accurately and obviously knows what hes talking about, and still someone contradicts them, even though they don't even really understand the question!

PhilB,
I think this thread effectively demonstrates your point about mis-information that is allowed to stand will evenually become fact in some people's minds.

I noted Airmale's comments above;
-----
Wasnt this a test carried out by UA to see if the 744s performance was affected minus the winglet, I believe they were surprised to note no change
-----

And my mind was sent racing back to this thread.
http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/287176/4
In particualr Iainhol's comments, quoting "research," and a "United mechanic"
Almost a year on this mis-information re-emerges here from someone else!
 
United747-200
Topic Author
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Thanks!

Mon Jun 11, 2001 7:30 am

Hmm, I didn't know this subject would get so..."heated." Anyway, I like it went people speak their minds. Thanks for the info about the picture and winglet!

United747-200
 
highflyer16
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RE: Look At This UA 744...Winglet Missing?

Mon Jun 11, 2001 8:15 am

Please forgive my ignorance, but what is a "winglet"? Is it that little piece of the 747's wing at the tip that comes straight up?  Confused

Also, if "winglets" make the plane so much more efficient, why aren't they on all jetliners?

Is it true that A320s also have winglets?

Thanks for any light you could shed.
 
hkgspotter1
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RE: Look At This UA 744...Winglet Missing?

Mon Jun 11, 2001 9:42 am

Why is this topic so long ???, A 744 can fly with 0, 1 or two winglets.

Lets finish this stupid topic.
 
SIA_B777
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RE: Look At This UA 744...Winglet Missing?

Mon Jun 11, 2001 10:06 am

Highflyer16

Correct.

Why? I don't know the scientific explaination behind this but they save fuel ONLY on long routes. Short route airplanes like the 737 and 757 don't have them because the savings in fuel don't occur on really short routes. However the 737NG has an option for winglets.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, this is the first aviation question I have attempted to answer!  Smile
 
United747-200
Topic Author
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Hkgspotter1

Mon Jun 11, 2001 11:56 am

Thanks for calling my topic "stupid". But, as I said, I believe in free speech. Oh, by the way, people saying the topic should end only make it longer...
United747-200
 
baec777
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RE: Look At This UA 744...Winglet Missing?

Mon Jun 11, 2001 2:19 pm

Why do some aircrafts has Winglets installed on wings like for A320, A330, A340, B744...???

Baec777  Smokin cool
 
VC-10
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RE: Hkgspotter1

Mon Jun 11, 2001 11:02 pm

Hkgspotter1.

If you want this topic to end, why post & it put back at the top of the board?
 
Guest

RE: Look At This UA 744...Winglet Missing?

Mon Jun 11, 2001 11:17 pm

Winglets are designed to reduce the tendency of the high pressure located under the wing to propagate itself to the upper surface of the wing in a perpendicular motion to the wings' cord. This phenomenon is known as wing tip vortices, winglet reduce the wing tip vortices thus reducing drag thus burning less fuel.

Winglet does not only work on long range aircrafts. My Cessna 152 have some sort of winglets (note i said some sort) which helps save fuel. I'll bring you pictures if you want.

Nicolas

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