Frostbite
Topic Author
Posts: 213
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 4:31 am

Comair Pilot Talks Resume; Any Hope?

Tue Jun 12, 2001 9:06 am

Comair and its striking pilots have resumed negotiations. Does anybody see anything coming of this? Comair's heels seem firmly planted. The pilots have something firmly planted too...I won't mention what and where, you can probably figure that out for yourself. My take on the whole issue is that the pilots are simply asking too much...this is a deregulated free market economy folks, and the downturn we're seeing is if anything continuing to accelerate. Comair pilots deserve generous raises...but they have to allow Comair to remain viable in a tenaciously competitive industry.

Realistically, Comair is doomed. Comair has no long-term future if they meet the pilots' demands. Seems to me, Comair pilots figure (correctly) that they can probably secure jobs elsewhere...besides, regional flying jobs have always for the most part been stepping stones to the "big bacon" of the majors. Do the Comair pilots really have much to lose? There's a lot of other airlines out there hiring pilots.

Your views?
 
learpilot
Posts: 783
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RE: Comair Pilot Talks Resume; Any Hope?

Tue Jun 12, 2001 9:53 am

If you were on the hiring board at an airline would you hire someone who had a hand in bringing down another airline? The boards do not consist of all pilots ya know.
Heed our warnings or your future will be underpant free!
 
flyf15
Posts: 6633
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 11:10 am

RE: Comair Pilot Talks Resume; Any Hope?

Tue Jun 12, 2001 10:05 am

Well, if they have to get new jobs, they'll loose all their senority. They'll be dreaming about the days when they were making what they were bringing in at Comair, as opposed to the less than $20k they'll be making as first year F/Os.
 
Twotterwrench
Posts: 1087
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2001 5:57 pm

RE: Comair Pilot Talks Resume; Any Hope?

Tue Jun 12, 2001 10:38 am

Personnally, I would never hire anyone who had ever been affiliated with ALPA unless they agreed to sign away their rights to ever join a union again and an apology for all the price gouging their terrorist jack booted thug union leaders have brought upon the american public. I hope the jackasses at Comair end up working at McDonalds. Serves em right for what they did to their airline and their fellow employees.
 
Soku39
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RE: Comair Pilot Talks Resume; Any Hope?

Tue Jun 12, 2001 10:56 am

Yep those pilots are sending there own airline barreling into the ground.
The Ohio Player
 
cv640
Posts: 843
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2000 8:10 pm

RE: Comair Pilot Talks Resume; Any Hope?

Tue Jun 12, 2001 11:04 am

It is intersting to see how many will be left. Airtran has been hiring them like its going out of style. JetBlue too has been interviewing them like mad and I hear Exec Jet has also sent its hiring team up to CVG. I know Northwest Airlink and Air Wisconsin have also been hiring quite a few of their crews. It'll be intersting to see if they'll just slowly fade away, replaced, closed down, or settle since they'll just be a significantally smaller airline. Although Delta will soon have to deal with ASA which is asking for a smiliar contract to what Comair has been asking for.
 
DE727UPS
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RE: Comair Pilot Talks Resume; Any Hope?

Tue Jun 12, 2001 11:07 am

I think DL management has realized that a Comair with properly compensated pilots is better than no Comair at all. They have realized that ASA is next, and ALPA's not going to roll over, so they might as well fix the problem now. At the same time, ALPA's not going to get all they asked for....which is as it should be. I doubt the two sides would have bothered talking again if it hadn't been for the pressure exerted by CVG area businesses and travelers to get Mineta involved as a mediator. Good luck to the Comair pilots to get a fair agreement they can live with....
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Comair Pilot Talks Resume; Any Hope?

Tue Jun 12, 2001 11:29 am

Good Lord, Twotterwrench, don't hide your feelings like that! Let us know what you REALLY think?  Smile

And DE727UPS, you are consistent. Taking that ALPA line to the end. There's one problem with what you said-the only deal the Comair pilots will find "fair" is the one that gives them everything. If the pilots don't budge, DL will NOT give into their ridiculous demands, and would rather fold Comair than to have a company that would be unprofitable.
 
willfly4food
Posts: 70
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2001 11:19 am

RE: Comair Pilot Talks Resume; Any Hope?

Tue Jun 12, 2001 1:08 pm

twotterwrench you wouldn't be able to hire any pilots then. I don't know one pilot who doesn't agree with and support what those guys at CMR are doing. If Delta is stupid enough to let them go then they will have the same problem with ASA. "Greedy"? you don't think beyond your own sad little world. Now that the regionals have gone to jet fleets that will kill the F100 at places like USAirways many RJ pilots want to make a career of flying for the regionals. They need retirement and fair (at least livable) wages. The Idea that the only option is to go to a major and be number 10,000 at age 35 is bulls%&*. You wouldn't know about that you live and work in the same place, go home everynight after work, didn't pay $28,000 on top of college tuition, and spend the first 5 years of your career making less than $18,000 per year.

I hope that all regional pilots do the same thing. Put these companies out of business until they relize they need to make an environment for their pilots that is fair livable and maybe even permanent.
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: Comair Pilot Talks Resume; Any Hope?

Tue Jun 12, 2001 2:03 pm

Willfly4food: "If Delta is stupid enough to let them go, then they will have the same problem with ASA."

Who's not thinking beyond their own little world here? The regionals are simply not a big enough part of the majors' total traffic, to blackmail the majors into doubling regional cockpit costs. ASA ALPA wants to make a suicide run too? Let them. Delta will let them go down too. It's a free market now, and reasonable wages not blackmail settlements are the order of the day.

Besides, the airlines won't be able to make up vast regional cost increases with higher fares. Consumers won't stand for it. Ninety nine percent of America does not get an exemption from economic reality, and we're not subsidizing one for airline pilots.

It's unlikely that Comair is unlikely to increase its generous offer much if at all, and it's unlikely that ALPA will settle for anything less than total victory. To Secretary Mineta all I can say is, good luck.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
YoungDon
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RE: Comair Pilot Talks Resume; Any Hope?

Tue Jun 12, 2001 2:04 pm

Willfly4food, what you just said is full of s#!t. The pilots at Comair are definetely asking for a contract that will cause the airline to be realistically unprofitable. The point of unions is not to ask for outrageous wages, but to create an environment that allows for fair working conditions and wages. ALPA is using its usual tactics to give Comair an ultimatum: 1) agree to our unreasonable demands 2)fold. What the company is offering is more than fair, and is quite reasonable in my opinion. I see where you're coming from with the idea that some pilots might want to have a permanent career with a regional airline, but the vast majority still want some sort of job advancement. And that means moving on in most cases. I don't mean to sound dogmatic, but its just how I feel.
 
PolAir
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RE: Comair Pilot Talks Resume; Any Hope?

Tue Jun 12, 2001 2:11 pm

Willy4food is right. Come on guys. Those pilots from Comair are fighting for right thing. They want to paid for a number of passengers that thay are carying. I hope all regionals will do the same thing. The fly as much sopfhisticated wquipment as any majors so they should be paid close to majors. delta is going to losse this battle. same thing will happened to ASA. delta will be left without any regionals. I mean come on, 18K/year for a guy who spent at leat 50K for eduaction is a JOKE!!!!!! Other airlines will just recruit all those 1300 well qualified pilots, and leave Delta with nothing.
 
Kohflot
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RE: Comair Pilot Talks Resume; Any Hope?

Tue Jun 12, 2001 2:19 pm

I've been staying out of the Comair debate for a while now, but..

It's my understanding that the major sticking point between the union and the airline is not pay.. I believe the new contract does offer the highest pay in the regional industry (beating out the new ACA contract by something like 1%). The problem seems to be the work rules, back-pay, and retirement issues. This is why I don't understand the ALPA line on the whole deal. These pilots are turning down a good contract just on the notion that they can get something better. But why not sign the contract, get on with life, and "raise the bar" a little more when the next contract is due? And every argument I've heard is about how Comair pilots are the lowest paid, etc. etc. But once again, pay is not the issue. I have yet to have someone explain to me that the reason why 2000+ people are looking for other jobs right now is because the pilots MUST have a retirement system in place between now and 2005 or whenever the next contract is due.

Willfly4food - Yes, pay is low in the first 5 years of a flying career.. and yes, Comair pay was lower than a lot of other companies. But let's look 10-15-20 years down the road. While most people are lucky to be making double what they started with, most of those pilots will easily be making over $100,000 a year. Not to mention the fact that the low pay was and is no secret, but they chose to fly airplanes for a living anyway. You hope that regionals go out of business until they pay more... What happens when those regionals go out of business precisely because they suffer from skyrocketing costs and stagnant income? Where does that leave new pilots then?
Ask why..
 
DE727UPS
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RE: Comair Pilot Talks Resume; Any Hope?

Tue Jun 12, 2001 2:57 pm

I keep hearing the argument that Comair won't make it if they agree to something close to what the pilots are asking for. Comair had significantly higher margins than mainline DL under the old contract. I don't believe that a richer pilot contract is gonna kill them....might cost the DL stockholders a bit...but not put them under. If Comair wants to stay in the game they will have to pay the price....a price they can afford. If not....they can close it up and walk away....these days many of the pilots will be able to find other jobs....that's the free market for you.
 
miller22
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RE: Comair Pilot Talks Resume; Any Hope?

Tue Jun 12, 2001 9:32 pm

As much as I enjoy these threads, I truly hope it ends in the next 72 hours.

One thing I can't stand is to hear everyone complain about pilots only getting $18,000 a year. That is only the first year folks, then it jumps to 28K. During that first year the pilot is in training and on probation. The company spends another $11K - $15K on them in training expenses, of which they spend three months in, effectively giving the airline only nine months of flying during the first year.

I don't agree with ALPA, but I would if they would did one thing. Take the money they are paying the pilots, and give it to the 2000 other employees who were laid off because of the pilots. The pilots never had to suffer for this strike, at least not like the other people they made suffer. The sacrifices made to improve pilot's quality of life, haven't been made by pilots.

Don't call yourselves hero's to the industry if all you did was take the money you got in your raise from the now unemployed workers. While the pilots choose to sit at home making $1,400 a month, the rampies and mechanics have no choice but to sit at home and make $0.
 
flashmeister
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RE: Comair Pilot Talks Resume; Any Hope?

Tue Jun 12, 2001 9:38 pm

Willy4food, you wrote:

I hope that all regional pilots do the same thing. Put these companies out of business until they relize they need to make an environment for their pilots that is fair livable and maybe even permanent.

Now, unless I missed something, there's no law that guarantees pilots out of a job. The way it usually works is that to have a job you must have an employer.

If your goal is the complete destruction of companies who won't write you a blank check, then you are, plain and simple, foolish. You're destroying the company that will provide for your family.

Especially in cases where people wish to build careers there, everyone at Comair -- and any corporation for that matter -- has a responsibility to contribute to the corporation as a member of a team. The thousands of non-Union jobs that are at risk here show what happens to a team when it's turned on its head by a greedy and misguided few.
 
deltairlines
Posts: 6877
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RE: Comair Pilot Talks Resume; Any Hope?

Tue Jun 12, 2001 10:12 pm

Why can't the president come in and force Comair to operate? That's what he should do.

Jeff
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Comair Pilot Talks Resume; Any Hope?

Tue Jun 12, 2001 11:19 pm

PolAir, the number of passengers per plane, for the most part, isn't increasing dramatically enough to warrent an 85% pay raise, if that's what you're basing it on. Most regionals had turboprobs that sat between 18 and 60 people, on average. Most regional jets now seat between 37 and 50 people, so the actual count overall isn't growing by that much. Even if it was a huge increase per aircraft, it doesn't justify an 85% increase.
 
mikeymike
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Joined: Thu May 18, 2000 6:52 am

RE: Comair Pilot Talks Resume; Any Hope?

Tue Jun 12, 2001 11:42 pm

THe only thing I have to add is that any Pilot who paid $50K for there education and thinks they should make twice that in the first year is full of crap. No offense, I believe pilots need to make good money too, and that $18k/ first year is ridiculous...but hell I paid $110K for my education and made barely a little more than that my first year but I'm not whining up and down the river. Pay your dues then you'll have a platform to speak from that isn't full of soap!

yes..yes..I know all you other pilots have platforms to speak on, but don't regurgitate poor arguments to me and please, don't give me verbatim the ALPA propaganda that I can clearly read off there website. Constructive arguments only, and I must say that this thread seems to be more constructive and less volatile than others...hopefully I haven't jinxed this.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
cv640
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RE: Comair Pilot Talks Resume; Any Hope?

Tue Jun 12, 2001 11:59 pm

The president can only force operations for 60 days and then the pilots would eb free to go back on strike. If he did that all Comair could do is retrain its flight crews and aybe get 25% of its flights operating for a week before the 60 days would expire. Its up to Comair and the pilots now. Its going to be a while, most in the industry figured it would take months and it is looking like it will. If strikes aren't settled within 2 weeks they have a history or dragging on.
 
jwenting
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RE: Comair Pilot Talks Resume; Any Hope?

Wed Jun 13, 2001 12:08 am

the problem is of course that for Delta/Comair to give in to ALPA will be setting a precedent, it will spark strikes all over the industry.
It is better to have Comair go down in flames than to risk the fire from spreading.
I wish I were flying
 
YoungDon
Posts: 496
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RE: Comair Pilot Talks Resume; Any Hope?

Wed Jun 13, 2001 2:54 pm

Comair should not give into the pilots demands. The airline has given the pilots, according to a previous post, the highest pay in the commuter field. I don't know what their doing in the benefits field, but they need to work it out. The airline should give a little and ALPA should give a little. But many people are suffering due to this prolonged strike, especially those that were laid off.
 
Guest

RE: Comair Pilot Talks Resume; Any Hope?

Wed Jun 13, 2001 4:25 pm

"Now that the regionals have gone to jet fleets that will kill the F100 at places like USAirways many RJ pilots want to make a career of flying for the regionals. They need retirement and fair (at least livable) wages. "


Just because I feel like making a career cooking burritos at taco bell doesn't mean they have to pay me $100 g's and retirment benifits. Come on, these guys knew what they were signing up for.
 
caetravlr
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Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 8:19 am

RE: Comair Pilot Talks Resume; Any Hope?

Wed Jun 13, 2001 9:39 pm

If you think about it, Comair must really feel that it would be way too expensive to give the pilots what they are asking for. If you consider the cost of having an airline grounded, they are spending lots of money not to pay the pilots. At the same time, the pilots are losing nothing, but holding out, because the union is sending them money. This whole pilot solidarity thing has gone too far. Think about it, if Comair is willing to stay grounded for this long, don't the pilots realize that there is a reason they cannot get everything that they are asking for? I hate to see Comair go away, and all of those people lose their jobs, but the elitist mentality of the ALPA may just bring it to that point.
A woman drove me to drink and I didn't have the decency to thank her. - W.C. Fields
 
tt737fo
Posts: 468
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2001 2:13 am

RE: Comair Pilot Talks Resume; Any Hope?

Wed Jun 13, 2001 10:06 pm

Some interesting comments from some interesting people:

Learpilot said: "The boards do not consist of all pilots ya know."

He is absolutely correct! Usually interview boards will have an intern or lowly HR flunky to ask such questions as: "What are your faults", "What's your greatest strength". Thanks Learpilot for bringing that factoid to light.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Flyf15 said: "They'll be dreaming about the days
when they were making what they were bringing in at Comair, as opposed to the less than $20k they'll be making as first year F/Os."


Two things I have to say about this: (1). Airlines such as AirTran, JetBlue, AirWhiskey are snapping up Comair pilots. Their pay is much better for their probationaries than most other regionals. Thus, you won't see too many Comair pilots griping. Their efforts will pay off. (2). The ALPA group at COMAIR should push for any and everything they can get. COMAIR is profitable, the company is large, the RJs are going toe to toe on mainline routes...thus the pilots should not settle for the short end of the stick.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Twotterwrench, one of my favorite posters had this gem of wisdom that we should all live by: "Personnally, I would never hire anyone who had ever been affiliated with ALPA unless they agreed to sign away their rights to ever join a union again and an apology for all the price gouging their terrorist
jack booted thug union leaders have brought upon the american public. I hope the jackasses at Comair end up working at McDonalds. Serves em right for what they did to their airline and their fellow employees."


I think the heart of his problem is that he shared a cell with a pilot who was much bigger than him.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DE727UPS: "Comair had significantly higher margins than mainline DL under the old contract. I don't believe that a richer pilot contract is gonna kill them....might cost the DL stockholders a
bit...but not put them under. If Comair wants to stay in the game they will have to pay the price. a price they can afford. If not....they can close it up and walk away....these days many of the pilots will be able to find other jobs....that's the free market for you."


He's absolutely right.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My final thoughts are as follows:

(1). The COMAIR pilot group will probably get very close to what they are asking for in the end, and it will do nothing but help the regional pilot industry wide. When you add it all up, the expense and time of paying a pilot is comparable to the costs associated with medical school. No one is arguing the fact that probationaries have to suck it up, but when you work for a LARGE, PROFITABLE CARRIER, and make less than your peers...you have every right to assert your rights. That's why ALPA exists.

(2). Air Wisconsin pilots will strike if necessary. This Comair situation will have some interesting implications for it too. Will be interesting to watch.

(3). Stay strong my Comair bros!


 
miller22
Posts: 598
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2000 4:48 am

RE: Comair Pilot Talks Resume; Any Hope?

Wed Jun 13, 2001 10:29 pm

BLAH!

The posts in this thread are so transparent. The posters who are pilots, back ALPA and the posters who are not pilots back Comair for the most part (Or rather they don't back ALPA).

ALPA is propoganda purified. Their entire existence relies on pilots hating management. When an airline (or any other company) employee group is considering a union, the union comes in and makes them hate and mistrust management. If the workers don't mistrust management, the union wouldn't be able to represent the workers. Hence they "create" situations of management mistreating employees. Of course as soon as the workers unionize, management quits protecting them because they stabbed them in the back and say "we have our own protection."

Look at the Big Lots situation in Cincy. The union attempting to represent BigLots workers put ads on the radio for people to join the union just because Big Lots wouldn't allow unions. Employees were treated fine, but the union made it look like they were slaves.

This is how unions work these days. Sure its a way of life, and we all have to live with it, but as far as sympathizing and supporting them, well that is the one choice we do have.

In the steel mills and mines in the 1870's workers had no choice but to work for the low wages the companies provided. In fact some corporations paid their employees in coupons for other company products. Unions started and the NLU and Kights of Labor represented all laborers indescriminately. Those that went on strike were put on a "black list" by the company which killed their career. That was then.

This is now...2001 workers have no choice but to join a union, and have to pay the fees. Unions (ALPA) will screw over other work groups (mechanics, rampies) to get what they want. Those that don't go on strike are put on a "scab list" by the union which kills their career.

 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Comair Pilot Talks Resume; Any Hope?

Thu Jun 14, 2001 1:19 am

TT737FO...another ALPA butt-kisser. And I think you're dead wrong, TT. I don't think ALPA will get NEAR what they wanted. If they get anything, it will be more in line with what Comair is offering. If ALPA doesn't come of their stupidity, Comair will fold.
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Miller22.....

Thu Jun 14, 2001 1:22 am

And Miller, have you noticed that JETPILOT, DE727UPS, and TT737FO all resort to name-calling when someone challenges the union propoganda? It's like they've learned it in "Union Brotherhood 101", or something! TT, I realize that those of us that aren't pilots are lowlifes who should bow before gods like you. Actually, I don't realize that-you're just a union ass-kisser who, when presented with opposing views, can't think on his own, and has to follow the union drivel.
 
caetravlr
Posts: 856
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 8:19 am

TT737FO

Thu Jun 14, 2001 1:32 am

Your last post was completely uncalled for. I know that Miller22 seems to have been coming from the mgmt side, but he has his right to an opinion just as you do. From what it looks like to me at first glance, you play the role of union pawn very well.

Now, you can call me any name you want to, or flame me all you want, I don't really care. As an educated professional, I am going to state my opinion. I started off my first year of employment at the same pitiful wages that first year pilots make. However, I did not mind, because I knew that if I did my job well, and looked for and utilized the opportunities given to me, that my future would be very bright, and I could be very comfortable. In 5 years, my salary has been increased 120%, due to hard work, and seizing opportunities. It is no different for a pilot. Work hard, pay your dues, and look for opportunities, and then get a job with a major carrier, and they will pay you well.

The fact is, regional jets do not yield the profit of a mainline aircraft. Therefore, the pilots of those planes cannot expect the same pay scale, its simple economics. I am not sure what part of that the pilots do not understand. I thought most of you guys were well educated. As far as the retirement bennies go, why should they give you guys exorbitant retirement benefits when alll you guys are doing is using them as a stepping stone into a job with a major carrier, and most of you will not retire from there.

Gone are the days of the pilots and other airline employees who had pride in their jobs, and did it to make a living, and for the sheer enjoyment. The unions made sure that all came to an end by harboring and us vs. Management mentality, and spreading it like a disease among their constituents.

Before you flame me, remember who the high yield business traveller is, paying your salary, and boarding your aircraft, and giving your employer a reason to stay in business and continue to grow, so that you may have further opportunities to fly to new places, and keep the job you should be proud of.
A woman drove me to drink and I didn't have the decency to thank her. - W.C. Fields
 
Guest

RE: Miller22.....

Thu Jun 14, 2001 1:44 am

I'm a union member myself, but I wouldn't jeopardize the livelyhood of 1,000's of people. Ask for more than the company offers, meet in the middle. That's the way
it's been done for years. Comair's greedy pilots will put
other's out of work (and already have). Shame shame shame on them.
 
caetravlr
Posts: 856
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 8:19 am

RE: Comair Pilot Talks Resume; Any Hope?

Thu Jun 14, 2001 1:53 am

I did not mention that there are several airlines for whose management I have complete disdain. The two major ones I feel this way about are United and US. You have a bunch of golf buddies trying to work out a deal to make them all rich. Either that, or Stephen Wolf is blackmailing Goodwin into trying to buy his airline for a ridiculous sum that it is not worth. However, from all that I can tell at Comair, you have honest management trying to balance the best interests of all parties involved, but the union is making them out to be the embodiment of Satan himself, and the pilots like sheep are buying it.

Again, these are just my opinions and perceptions. There are two sides this, and I feel that as a company grows and profits, it should share some of this with the employees, I expect the same from my employer, but not so much that it can not contine to function properly. The pilots at Comair are alienating the rest of their coworkers while trying to fleece their employer. Both of these are very bad ideas.
A woman drove me to drink and I didn't have the decency to thank her. - W.C. Fields
 
Guest

RE: Comair Pilot Talks Resume; Any Hope?

Thu Jun 14, 2001 2:40 am

>>spend the first 5 years of your career making less than $18,000 per year.<<

They would only be making $18000/year in their first year(esp. if they go to Comair Flight Academy). After that it goes to $28000. Don't know where you get that.

And most professions don't end up having the employees making $300,000+/year by the time they are close to retirement.
 
DCA-ROCguy
Posts: 3893
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2000 5:03 am

RE: Comair Pilot Talks Resume; Any Hope?

Thu Jun 14, 2001 2:54 am

TT737F0, you can rant about your "bros" all you want, but the hard cold fact is that unions and management aren't the only parties involved in the Comair situation. There's a third party....consumers. We have budgets too, and the Six Families and their regional capos have been gouging us for years.

The economy is soft, and we're not going to take another round of structural fare increases to pay for blackmail settlements with scorched-earth unions like ALPA. Unions tend to think money grows on trees, forgetting that it comes from the pockets of travelers who have budgets, and company expense accounts that also have limits.

The market, not union bosses, decides what jobs are worth in a free society...and the 93 percent of us who can't shut down our employers and put thousands of other peopl out of work, for a doubling of salary, aren't going to subsidize an exemption from economic reality for airline pilots.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
Delta737
Posts: 469
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 1999 11:23 am

RE: Comair Pilot Talks Resume; Any Hope?

Thu Jun 14, 2001 3:05 am

Required reading for anyone who doesn't believe unions belong at the airlines. This is a look at pre-union work rules and pay issues.

"Flying the Line" - By George E. Hopkins

After you've read the book, or at least skimmed it briefly, I'll respect your anti-union ideologies.

Doug Taylor
MD-90 FO
ALPA Member
 
caetravlr
Posts: 856
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 8:19 am

RE: Comair Pilot Talks Resume; Any Hope?

Thu Jun 14, 2001 3:06 am

TT737FO,

You mention in another thread that the airline that you work for is UAL. I have one question for you. In your Us vs. Management mentality, why are you pilots of the ALPA not supporting the mechanics and F/As in their campaigns to get what they deserve the way they supported you guys last summer? I can guarantee you that in 5 years or whenever this contract is up, you will have no support, and not get nearly as many concessions as you did this time. Just a thought, why don't you guys share the wealth a bit, or is it just too cozy in your crystal palace?

I am not aiming this at you specifically, I am just curious for an answer from someone who supports the union line so strongly.
A woman drove me to drink and I didn't have the decency to thank her. - W.C. Fields
 
caetravlr
Posts: 856
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 8:19 am

Delta737

Thu Jun 14, 2001 3:14 am

Mr. Taylor,

I never said that unions did not have their place. I am just saying that I disagree with some of their tactics, and the propoganda they have spread as of late. An employee group of the size of the pilots at the major carriers needs protection, and to be able to work together when they are being hamstrung by management. It is not just management that you guys need unions for, but also for crew schedulers who break contractual rules and things such as that as well. I know what the life of an airline crew member is like, as I am about to marry one. You guys worked hard for your education and job, and for that I respect you.

I would love to read the book you mentioned. If I see at my local bookstore, I will pick it up, or maybe I can find it when in SEA later this month. If you still fly on any of the MD-88s as it says on your website, who knows, I may be on one of your flights later this month.

I just want you guys to know, I am not against fair work rules and compensation, I just disagree with what the union is preaching is fair, and what they are doing to Comair at this point.
A woman drove me to drink and I didn't have the decency to thank her. - W.C. Fields
 
DE727UPS
Posts: 810
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2000 10:55 am

RE: Comair Pilot Talks Resume; Any Hope?

Thu Jun 14, 2001 3:26 am

Milller22..."This is now...2001 workers have no choice but to join a union, and have to pay the fees. Unions (ALPA) will screw over other work groups (mechanics, rampies) to get what they want. Those that don't go on strike are put on a "scab list" by the union which kills their career."

Of course you know I disagree with your views....which is fine, and I have better things to do than to always fight with the anti-ALPA crowd. However, I must point out a few things. You know, don't you, that you don't have to belong to the union at some ALPA airlines. DL for example....you can choose not to join. You still have to pay dues since you directly benefit from the unions efforts....don't you think that's fair?

Secondly, I don't see being a scab as "killing your career". It will kill your social life within the pilot group and make you scum of the earth in their eyes....but does that effect your pay or senority? If you are on the senority list then you are on the senority list....they can't take that away. Many have stated here that they think the Comair strikers should not get hired at other airlines. Don't you think the reverse of that would be true....wouldn't an airline love to hire a scab since they will be a sure company pawn during a job action? So many are intimidated by this "ALPA brotherhood" family stuff. If you choose to be a scab at airline A and then try to move to airline B, you might have a problem with the pilot board part of the interview at airline B....but if you stay at airline A, you are on the senority list and that's all that really matters.....

Alpha 1.... "DE727UPS.....all resort to name-calling when someone challenges the union propoganda?"

I try not to do that....the name calling part...you don't know how many times I've felt like going off at these threads like many others do and even wrote stuff and after reviewing it, just deleted it, since it would only inflame these threads more and wouldn't change anyones opinions.

Your words...."you're just a union ass-kisser who" and from another thread "another ALPA butt-kisser"......

need I say more.....





 
cv640
Posts: 843
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CAETravlr

Thu Jun 14, 2001 5:45 am

I have heard secodn hand the reason the pilots are supporting the FAs at United is that they have a number of year sleft on their contract. Plus they were the only union that didn't go along with ESOPS or take pay cuts in the lats round to help the company out. Now they feel they should have to live up to their contract and not try and get out of it.
 
DE727UPS
Posts: 810
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2000 10:55 am

RE: Comair Pilot Talks Resume; Any Hope?

Thu Jun 14, 2001 6:32 am

CAETravlr....

You ask why don't airline pilot unions support the other unions on the property. Sometimes they do...

I can only speak from personal experience but during the UPS teamsters strike in 97 the pilots honored the picket lines and effectively struck as well. We try to support the other employee groups.
 
goingboeing
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RE: Comair Pilot Talks Resume; Any Hope?

Thu Jun 14, 2001 7:01 am

TT737FO said:

"Airlines such as AirTran, JetBlue, AirWhiskey are snapping up Comair pilots. Their pay is much better for their probationaries than most other regionals. "

This begs the question - why didn't the disgruntled Comair pilots apply there, rather than put their non flying (and in your opinion rather useless) coworkers on the street?
 
caetravlr
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RE: Comair Pilot Talks Resume; Any Hope?

Thu Jun 14, 2001 7:02 am

CV640 - I guess I can understand some of that. I think that what the F/As that I know with UAL are most upset about is that they supported the pilots just this past summer, when they got their big raises, and now that the F/As are trying to get the raises that are supposed to be possible in the terms of their contract, they don't feel they are getting any support from anyone. Again, most of my information is second hand. The one F/A that I am closest to did not vote for the current contract, however since a majority did, she is stuck with it. I guess that the fact that the AFA 5 or 6 years ago convinced their constituency that a 10 year contract was a good idea has a lot to do with my disillusionment concerning the unions. That, and my perception of the things that are going on with Comair right now.

DE727UPS - I am glad that UPS employee groups support one another. That is a really good thing to see. My question was directly concerning UAL, and the way that the F/As and mechanics supported the pilots last summer. The F/As are in a very sucky contract and get shafted every year when it is time to evaluate their pay scale according to the contract. This current contract is the very reason they are thinking about kicking out the AFA and going with another union. You should see the AFA propoganda that comes to our house.

Again, none of my comments are meant to be taken personally by any one person. Thanks guys for your constructive and informative posts. I am glad that we can share an exchange of ideas even if we don't see everything the same way.
A woman drove me to drink and I didn't have the decency to thank her. - W.C. Fields
 
Guest

RE: Comair Pilot Talks Resume; Any Hope?

Thu Jun 14, 2001 8:58 am

>>If you are on the senority list then you are on the senority list....they can't take that away.<<

Yes, BUT if you are applying to an airline which has a couple of higher-ups in the ALPA union and have been there for 25 years, do you think they would hire you? This is especially bad when the airline scabbed against goes down, then you won't be working for major in your future. Even JETPILOt has said that.
 
Twotterwrench
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Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2001 5:57 pm

RE: Comair Pilot Talks Resume; Any Hope?

Thu Jun 14, 2001 10:56 am

ALPA pilot's speak and all I hear is BAA... BAA....BAA... sheep led to the slaughter by the hubris of their "leadership." The big picture doesn't support the pilots in this one fella's no matter what Mr. Hopkins pissed and moaned about in his book. They knew the score when they signed up. You people are like lemmings jumping off the cliff spouting your union brother hood as you sink deep in the ocean of your own greed.
 
Frostbite
Topic Author
Posts: 213
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RE: Comair Pilot Talks Resume; Any Hope?

Thu Jun 14, 2001 11:09 am

Wow, I didn't expect to hear from so many on this.

We'll have something more substantive to wrangle over tomorrow, when there will be some official indication of the progress (if any) of the talks.

I think Comair (DL) will keep the hard line on this. Caving to the pilots now will only assure a similar disaster at ASA....
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Comair Pilot Talks Resume; Any Hope?

Thu Jun 14, 2001 1:10 pm

Mr. Taylor, I don't need to read that piece. Like others, we realize the value of unions over the years in helping employees in all fields in this country. Unions have made workplaces safer and more efficient. If anyone argues with that, they're dreaming. That is not the issue. The issue is this all-or-nothing mindset that many times permeates unions in this industry. We saw it with the IAM at Eastern; we see it now with ALPA at Comair. It's this mindset that permeates many pilot groups that they, when it is all said and done, ARE what keeps the airline viable. CO pilots, during their last negotiations, said as much, printing out a piece of propoganda that was entitled "The Amazing turnaround of Continental, and the 5000 pilots who made it happen". No credit to the other employees-just pounding their own chests as the end-all of the airline. THAT is what irks so many people.

Pilots, on average, are the hightest paid group in the industry behind upper management, yet they whine and cry more than the other groups combined. I've seen it too often to be convinced it's just an isolated thing.

And DE727UPS, I did say that, and you don't have to say anymore, because I haven't seen anything from you that makes me think otherwise, with all respect.
 
dash8tech
Posts: 708
Joined: Mon Jul 05, 1999 8:40 pm

RE: Comair Pilot Talks Resume; Any Hope?

Thu Jun 14, 2001 2:00 pm

First off, the regional pilots deserve a bit more than they get. No doubt about it. But some of them are asking for a helluva lot more than reasonable. Nothing wrong with unions at all...as long as they do think of the groups best interest. Lets face it, if Comair goes under and 5,000 people are out of work ALPA's still around making its millions, do they reall REALLY care?

Hmm, there has to be a certain level of "know what you're getting into". Noone told the pilots at the interview YOU WILL WORK HERE!!! They know coming in the pay is shite, most are just building up hours to move onto eventual 6 figures with the heavies. They do deserve a raise, but surely what they were originally getting paid is more than unemployment insurance.

Cheers.