aznjapken
Posts: 51
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Lining Up The Aircraft On Takeoff?

Sat Jun 30, 2001 12:44 pm

I was wondering if the aircraft has to be aligned with the runway and stopped before raising the thrust. Once I was on a Delta MD-11 out of Fukuoka to PDx, and while still turning onto the runway, the captian raised the thrust, straightened out, and tookoff. On all of the other flights i have been on, the aircraft has been stopped and lined up before raising the thrust. Any information would help, thanx.
 
jcxp15
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RE: Lining Up The Aircraft On Takeoff?

Sat Jun 30, 2001 12:54 pm

Same thing has happened to me numerous times. On a flight from ORD to LGA, the taxiway was clear, the whole way, and the pilot didn't even stop at the runway. He just raised the thrust and took off. This has also happened at ATL.
 
csavel
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RE: Lining Up The Aircraft On Takeoff?

Sat Jun 30, 2001 1:01 pm

This happens often and I always thought that it was due to the runway being clear and perhaps ATC wanting the A/C to go, already.

But why do aircraft, sometimes in addition to holding rev with the breaks on? I am assuming that if the runway is short like LGA then one would go to speed more quickly with engines already revved, but I have experienced it only sometimes at LGA, with no correlation to weather conditions or load apparent to me, and at other airports as well (like MEM, no short runways there.)
I may be ugly. I may be an American. But don't call me an ugly American.
 
SSTjumbo
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RE: Lining Up The Aircraft On Takeoff?

Sat Jun 30, 2001 1:06 pm

I was on a UAL 752 from ORD-LAX. The pilo reved his engines right from the taxiway onto 32L and went full throttle once he aligned. I think there was heavy traffic and ATC might have wanted the plane to leave the taxiway and depart ASAP. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
I don't know, so this is my signature.
 
Delta777-XXX
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RE: Lining Up The Aircraft On Takeoff?

Sat Jun 30, 2001 1:07 pm

You don't have to stop on the runway unless ATC says, "taxi into position and hold" or whatever. Sometimes they go ahead and clear you for takeoff... so theres no need to stop on the runway.
 
doug_or
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RE: Lining Up The Aircraft On Takeoff?

Sat Jun 30, 2001 1:13 pm

ditto Delta 777-xxx. In addition, they may also issue a "no delay" request if there is an aircraft on final.
When in doubt, one B pump off
 
Guest

RE: Lining Up The Aircraft On Takeoff?

Sat Jun 30, 2001 1:16 pm

If you're cleared for takeoff without having to hold in position, and there are no runway or climb performance restrictions, a common practice (assuming good weather, dry runway) is to let the engines stabilize as you're finishing the turn, and then once lined up, bring the engines up to takeoff thrust. There is no need to stop the plane and hold the brakes, assuming the above mentioned conditions.
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: Lining Up The Aircraft On Takeoff?

Sat Jun 30, 2001 2:03 pm

You don't 'rev' jet engines, you spool them up!
 
modesto2
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RE: Lining Up The Aircraft On Takeoff?

Sat Jun 30, 2001 2:17 pm

Another interesting practice is an intersection departure where the aircraft won't taxi to the end of the runway but instead, departs from an intersection. This happened to me on a Southwest flight at OAK. Instead of taxiing to the end of runway 29, we used a taxiway and without stopping, proceeded to the take-off roll. Tons of fun!
 
Super Em
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RE: Lining Up The Aircraft On Takeoff?

Sat Jun 30, 2001 2:25 pm

That happens alot in LGA.While still in the turn the pilot applies full power and is gone.Also in response to Modesto2's comment,I saw that at JFK.A Jetblue A320 did that.
 
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wjv04
Posts: 547
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RE: Lining Up The Aircraft On Takeoff?

Sat Jun 30, 2001 2:29 pm

this happens everywhere, even in little cessnas, its not a big deal..
you can get takeoff clearence from holding short or on the runway...
cya
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: Lining Up The Aircraft On Takeoff?

Sat Jun 30, 2001 4:11 pm

In alot of heavier aircraft it is reccomended not to stop at the end of the runway if at all possible. This is because you have to spool the engines higher to get the plane moving again..thus putting more wear on the engines and burning more fuel. The reason why you dont usually stop at the end of the runway is because of the position and hold command usually imposed on the airplane by ATC because of another one clearing the runway that has just landed or has just departed, thus providing the proper separation. Otherwise (given that all checklists are complete) youll just meander out there without stopping and gun it.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
trickijedi
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RE: Lining Up The Aircraft On Takeoff?

Sat Jun 30, 2001 4:26 pm

DELTA&&&-XXX Wrote: You don't have to stop on the runway unless ATC says, "taxi into position and hold" or whatever.

Delta, I would have to disagree with you. When turning on to the runway from the taxiway, the pilot always has to stop on the runway until he gets clearance from ATC, which the pilots have to repeat back. Another reason why they wouldn't hold short of the runway is when ATC wants them to take-off at runway xx "no delay," as Doug pointed out. But this request would have to be transmitted at an ample time.
Its better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air than be in the air wishing you were on the ground. Fly safe!
 
QANTAS747-438
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RE: Lining Up The Aircraft On Takeoff?

Sat Jun 30, 2001 4:29 pm

I was on a 747-400 at LAX and we were on the taxiway and we did this huge, mushy turn onto 24L and during the turn the pilot let the engines go 100% and no sooner did we turn than we were screaming down the runway! It was great!

And on landing, we landed 24R and went straight to the taxiway, held short, and kept on going!

Great stuff!!!
My posts/replies are strictly my opinion and not that of any company, organization, or Southwest Airlines.
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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Trickijedi

Sat Jun 30, 2001 4:36 pm

Actually.. youre wrong too.. there are two things that can happen when holding short of a runway:

A: Tower can clear you for departure (at which time you can stroll on out on the runway, stopping if you want to finish any necessary checklists or departure preparations, or running on out there and gunning it-- and as mentioned earlier they can tell you to expedite departure and get into the air as quickly as possible.)


or

B: Tower can give you position and hold, where you taxi out on the runway, line up, and stop.. until tower gives you clear for take off.


Thats it. End of story.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
trickijedi
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RE: Lining Up The Aircraft On Takeoff?

Sat Jun 30, 2001 4:46 pm

XFSUgimpLB41X, that is exactly what I wrote, dude. You just went into more detail about it than I did. Point is: Planes have to stop on the runway unless they get some clearance from ATC, which is contrary to what DELTA&&&-XXX wrote. He says you don;t have to unless ATC tells them to hold.
Its better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air than be in the air wishing you were on the ground. Fly safe!
 
Qantas737
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RE: Lining Up The Aircraft On Takeoff?

Sat Jun 30, 2001 5:42 pm

XFSU is correct.
a) the aircraft may be taxiing and when getting closer to the RWY the tower may clear him for "immediate take-off" which pilot's must take seriously for safety reasons.

b) An aircraft may have landed and you are cleared to line-up on the RWY, but maybe due to wake-turbulance or the aircraft which had just landed may not be off the RWY yet you are not cleared for take-off as of yet. Once everything is OK then the TWR will clear u for take-off.
 
seagull
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RE: Lining Up The Aircraft On Takeoff?

Sat Jun 30, 2001 6:07 pm

Tricki,

You seem to be misunderstanding something here. The only time you have to stop is:

1. Prior to the runway if ATC has not cleared you onto the runway to either takeoff or hold in position;

2. On the runway in the case that ATC has not cleared you for takeoff but instead "into position and hold" or "lineup and wait" (as is used in most of the world).

If, as we approach the runway, ATC says "cleared for takeoff" then there is no requirement for us to stop at all, period! Additionally, there is NO requirement stop on the runway if ATC has cleared us for takeoff prior to getting onto the runway.

Now, there are a couple of other reasons the crew may elect to stop on the runway. In turbojet aircraft that would most likely be to runup the engines due to icing conditions (can be as much as +10c depending on engine type). The other time is if a crew was very concerned about takeoff length, so wanted to run up the engines prior to brake release. As has been pointed out, this is of limited value and has some strong negatives associated with it.

 
Guest

RE: Lining Up The Aircraft On Takeoff?

Sat Jun 30, 2001 10:17 pm

SEAGULL? DO YOU FLY?
TOWER clears you onto the rwy for takeoff, not atc! I'd like to see you call atc (departure) for a clearance to t/o from a particular rwy at a particular airport while holding short!!!
 
VgnAtl747
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RE: Lining Up The Aircraft On Takeoff?

Sat Jun 30, 2001 10:56 pm

I thought it had something to do with the fact that the nosewheel steering is disabled for takeoff with some aircraft making it impossible to correct the direction while taking off. Correct me if I'm wrong please.
Work Hard. Fly Right. Continental Airlines
 
seagull
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RE: Lining Up The Aircraft On Takeoff?

Sat Jun 30, 2001 11:09 pm

Anh,

Yes, I'm an MD-11 Captain for a U.S. major airline. I have also participatedin ATPAC, charting forums and many ALPA safety committees.

You are under some inane impression that the tower is not part of ATC. Contrary to what you think, and as anyone from FAA would tell you, ATC includes terminal (that's both approach control and "local" control, the latter being what you call the "tower"), enroute, which is ARTCC, and FSS. All are part of ATC. You might also call NATCA and ask them if they consider their members who work in the towers if they consider them to be a part of ATC. Better yet, ask your local airport control tower Air Traffic Controllers. They're the ones that _control the traffic_ from the tower.

As to Vgn, nose wheel steering is not disabled on any aircraft I know of, although some smaller turboprops don't have direct linkage from the _rudder pedals_ to the nosewheel, requiring the use of the tiller during the early part of the takeoff roll.
 
IAHERJ
Posts: 527
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RE: Lining Up The Aircraft On Takeoff?

Sun Jul 01, 2001 12:07 am

Two airports were mentioned where aircraft spooled up before being lined up on the runway. Many of you are aviation enthusiasts, therefore you know the challenges we all face in LGA. Intersecting runways where the "Tower" controlers need pilots to be ready to immedietely follow commands in order to use the runway configurations to their maximum capacity. The tower controler issues takeoff clearances sometimes while an aircraft is still 400 yards from the end of the runway. Right away, the pilots complete the takeoff checks and you'll see all the lights come on prior to even turning on to the runway. Keeping the speed up around the corner and on to the runway saves fuel and runway that might just be needed if a failure close to V1 is experienced. I fly a regional jet with no auto-brakes that uses a good bit of runway for takeoff due to it's wing having no leading edge devices. Runway is my friend on a hot day with a ful load comming out of DCA, or LGA,MDW,or HPN. Not to mention some destinations we serve in Mexico where that extra boost of speed in the turn on to the runway could mean less of a holding pattern climb to clear the mountains.
Actually flown: EMB-120 EMB-145 B717 B737 B757 B767
 
Guest

RE: Lining Up The Aircraft On Takeoff?

Sun Jul 01, 2001 12:26 am

Seagull, welcome to airliners.net, you will learn to love the place!
 
Guest

Seagull

Sun Jul 01, 2001 12:50 am

Seagull,

Welcome aboard!

Don't worry, There are many non-pilot and 17 yr old private pilot "experts" on this board who spread misinformation as if it were the truth.

UPS A300 Capt

 
Guest

RE: Lining Up The Aircraft On Takeoff?

Sun Jul 01, 2001 1:27 am

One more note about intersection takeoffs. At my airline (also one of the 9 majors), we could have the longest runway in the world and be offered an intersection takeoff, but if we didn't have the performance numbers on board for that particular runway and intersection, we're prohibited from taking it. Can't speak for the other airlines, but my guess is many would have the same restrictions. Common sense will tell you many intersections would be perfectly safe to takeoff from, but the rule is all encompassing. And on any shorter runway or departure with obstacles, it probably isn't a bad rule to have. It's nice to have the performance numbers to reference before blasting off.
 
trickijedi
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RE: Seagull

Sun Jul 01, 2001 3:44 am

And I myself am one of those people whom I do not dub as an expert but rather am more than willing to learn and really do not mind to be respectfully corrected. Seagull, I think your comment made the most sense here. Thanks.
Its better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air than be in the air wishing you were on the ground. Fly safe!
 
Critter_592
Posts: 269
Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2000 3:07 pm

RE: Lining Up The Aircraft On Takeoff?

Sun Jul 01, 2001 3:54 am

Since on the subject, I once heard a Delta pilot being told to taxi into position and hold on 4L at JFK. After the correct miles separation were established from the aircraft previously departing Delta was cleared to takeoff. He replied with "we need another 30 seconds for spacing". Tower was pissed off 100%. He was very busy since JFK was at its full ops for departure (late in the evening). They had a little argument about Delta being in control of when he wants to go, and tower told him if he was not going to be ready when giving instructions he should have said so before entering the runway thus holding everyone else up behind him.

It was a very interesting conversation.
 
fspilot747
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RE: Lining Up The Aircraft On Takeoff?

Sun Jul 01, 2001 4:00 am

I was out spotting in SNA yesterday, and I noticed that all but one plane spooled up on the turn to line up with the runway. Only one actually stopped on the runway. There was a great, GREAT view of this Bombardier Global Express in SNA. As it was turning on to the runway, the engines began to whine a bit, but once on the runway completely, this amazing spool up sounded sweet. It was like, a loud whine, a loud fan sound, ohhhh it was amazing. Just thought I'd share that with you guys, but yeah, a lot of times when I fly, the crew spools up during the turn.

best regards,
-FSPilot747
 
Guest

RE: Lining Up The Aircraft On Takeoff?

Sun Jul 01, 2001 4:42 am

Well, now that's interesting about SNA, because of all the airports I regularly fly in and out of, that's the only one where we actually do hold the brakes, let the engines stabilze and then bring the engines up near takeoff thrust before releasing the brakes. It's part of that silly procedure we all have to fly out of there. We would never do a rolling takeoff there.

There's plenty of performance to get off that runway without holding the brakes, but that's part of our deal there. At just about any other airport, once cleared for takeoff, you release the brakes, let the engines stabilize, then go to takeoff thrust, all while just slowly starting to roll down the runway. I find it rather uncomfortable to hold the brakes and then release them with so much thrust, it's noisy, vibrates the plane and can push you back in your seat quite suddenly once you're going.

Are you sure you weren't just hearing the planes spool up their engines enough just to get moving onto the runway? They can get fairly loud to reach "breakaway thrust" to start a big plane moving for taxi.
 
777gk
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RE: Lining Up The Aircraft On Takeoff?

Sun Jul 01, 2001 5:54 am

Typically, you will do this when there is not too much traffic around and you can afford to have some more fun. I love pulling a 757 around onto the active while accelerating to takeoff thrust. It's a break from the ordinary and makes you feel more in control of the airplane. I've never had trouble getting the plane lined up correctly while doing this, but I've seen things go wrong. At RSW (I believe) a bunch of years back, we were a 727-200 going up to EWR, and the airport was just about empty except for a DL 727 and 737 and US 737-200. The US flight rolled out to the runway ahead of us, and attempted to begin takeoff acceleration through its turn onto the centerline. Well, the pilot must have overturned his tiller a bit much, because the plane blew right past the centerline and started cruising toward the grass on the left side of the runway. The pilot was quick in realizing the mistake, thankfully, and cut power and hit the brakes hard to stop it before the plane could roll off. He taxied off, and we were cleared to go since he was now behind us. During our right turn out of RSW, well within a safe distance for the US 737 to make its departure, I caught a glimpse of the airplane holding at the threshold, evidently to spool up. I guess he learned his lesson.
 
SSTjumbo
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RE: Lining Up The Aircraft On Takeoff?

Sun Jul 01, 2001 1:18 pm

If anyone talks about 17 year old think-they-know-it-all-but-really-don'ts, don't include me! I deliberately said to correct me if I'm wrong because I am not an airline pilot or any kind of pilot (yet) and I will always say when I am guessing.
I don't know, so this is my signature.
 
MX727
Posts: 121
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RE: Lining Up The Aircraft On Takeoff?

Sun Jul 01, 2001 4:01 pm

Hello!
Actually, it's called "rolling" takeoff. If you are cleared to takeoff before you enter the runway, you may put some thrust still being on the taxyway until engines stabilize, then, when you are 45 degrees to align with the runway, you can apply slowly takeoff thrust, and that's good cause you enter the runway running and you brake the inertia. it's a good practice with a high takeoff weight, and also in any other condition. And it is used whenever you are cleared for takeoff before entering the runway, doesn't matter if it is in a congested or in an empty airport.
As it was stated before, tower may ask pilots to "enter into position and hold", normally if there is another aircraft on the runway, or clear the aircraft to takeoff if the runway is clear... no big deal!
Also, another interesting case is the "static" takeoff, done normally with max takeoff weight. You allpy takeoff trhust with the brakes on, then you slowly depress the brakes and the aircraft starts a fast run from zero.
Regards,