MAC100
Topic Author
Posts: 262
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2000 7:53 am

Sabena/Swissair

Wed Jul 04, 2001 12:07 am

Any thoughs on this press release?

Swissair Group surprised and dismayed at the Belgian Government’s rejection of its revised proposal to resolve Sabena situation

Zurich Airport, July 3, 2001 - Swissair Group is surprised and dismayed to have received this morning an immediate rejection of its revised proposal to resolve the pressing Sabena situation, which it submitted to the Belgian Government yesterday (July 2).

The new proposal – which involves Swissair Group and the Belgian Government jointly contributing Euro 305 million to Sabena – would guarantee Sabena’s future based on the operational objectives agreed by Sabena’s management in its proposed business plan.

Commenting on the situation, Swissair Group’s Chairman and CEO Mario A. Corti said “It is with astonishment that I have received from the Belgian Government this morning a summary rejection of the one proposal on the table which will ensure Sabena’s future without even discussing the matter with the parties concerned. Swissair Group is not willing to finance loss-making airlines indefinitely. Without our plan being accepted, the future of Sabena now looks increasingly in doubt.“
 
Guest

RE: Sabena/Swissair

Wed Jul 04, 2001 2:37 am

Very well!
The Belgians were accustomed to see Swissair throwing hundreds of millions in their airline for years. Such a situation has to stop once. If the Belgian Govt doesn't want to cooperate, and if Sabena's workers' unions don't (want to) understand that many workplaces will have to be suppressed, it's the whole airline that will stop, and very soon. Would such a scenario be better? Not for Belgium, for sure. But for Swissair, perhaps...so the Belgian counterpart should be a little more careful before rejecting a life-saving business plan on such a way.
 
swake
Posts: 227
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 4:47 am

RE: Sabena/Swissair

Wed Jul 04, 2001 5:46 am

it's not even just a bit life-saving. The proposed plan is a mockery and only aiming at an easy escape. Throwing in 100s of millions?? Come on... SR took a part in SN, a buy in, let's say. They did definetely not invest 100's of millions in the airline. SN had to turn largely to its own resources to finance the megalomanic Reutlinger fleet renewal plans.
Get your history straight.
br
swake
 
flysab
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 1999 7:59 am

RE: Sabena/Swissair

Wed Jul 04, 2001 5:46 am

Talk about the money Swissair has put into Sabena ???
They put money to buy 49,5 % of Sab, and a few month ago they put 6 billions BEF to recapitalize it, that's all. The recapitalization was due to the bad decisions taken the years before, and that was forced by SWR.
Now what did SAB pay to SWR ? Nothing at first sight of course, but a lot (and much more than at the market price) to Atraxis, and Flightlease, and Swisscargo, all owned by SWR.
So I believe SWR pumped a lot of money from SAB, and took a lot of bad decisions leading to SAB being almost bankrupt now.
And on top of that they want to breach the contract they signed with the belgian gov for only 12 billions BEF!!!!!
 
A320-addict
Posts: 249
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2001 1:24 am

RE: Sabena/Swissair

Wed Jul 04, 2001 6:24 am

It is very easy for Swissair to 'raise' a businessplan for Sabena, so called to save it's future, which has to be funded almost only by the Belgian shareholders.
It was Swissair that was in charge for the last 4 years,
so I think it is unfair that the SN employees have to suffer for the mistakes taken in those years by the Swiss managers.

Not only is it unfair towards the employees, but as well towards the Belgian tax-payers. Indeed the Belgian government was in charge the years before that.... but the situation has NEVER been as serious as now!
All the fatal discisions regarding....fleet, destinations,
money transfers,....etc where to sole responsibility of Swissair and it's managers.

It is indeed time for Swissair and Sabena to split up, but Swissair wants to keep the 49,5% they have in Sabena. Why?? Very simple there are 2 reasons.
First of all to keep Brussels as a hub which becomes more and more important as a business airport, as capital of Europe. Second of all Swissair needs Sabena, because Sabena operates MORE European flights than Swissair does for the moment. Sabena acts as a feeder airline to fill Swissairs long-haul flights eg. Johannesburg. Swissair's long-haul which is indeed quite big and can not be compared to Sabena's long-haul.

Greetz


 
A320-addict
Posts: 249
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2001 1:24 am

RE: Toda,Reisinger

Wed Jul 04, 2001 6:31 am

Toda,Reisinger,

Don't give such stupid comments on something you clearly don't know anything about. And certainly if you are not familiar with the internal situation.

I won't comment the Jewish-Palestinian question as well, because I know nothing about it!!

You can have an opinion indeed, and I respect it, but not if it is so subjectively coloured.
 
Guest

RE: Sabena/Swissair

Wed Jul 04, 2001 4:37 pm

"Swissair was in charge of Sabena for the last 4 years"

Sabena's problems have older roots. When was Sabena's last year of profits?

Bad decisions were taken by stupid "leaders" like Reutlinger or Brugisser. But these decisions were taken also by Sabena, in its own name.
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: Sabena/Swissair

Wed Jul 04, 2001 5:06 pm

As soon as I hear that Sabena workers want to go on strike to protest any restructuring, I lose all sympathy for Sabena. Strikes only work if the company is making money. If the company is bleeding to death, a strike only makes it worse and ends up costing even more to save, as well as requiring even more layoffs than if they had not gone on strike.

Oh well, none of this is a surprise. I remember several years ago when Swissair bought into Sabena. Everybody here was saying "Sabena?!?!?!? The fools!!!".

Sure enough, here we are.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Guest

RE: Sabena/Swissair

Wed Jul 04, 2001 8:55 pm

Very well said, Charles!
The exemples are numerous. El-Al's case is the one I know best: endless strikes at the end of the 1970s pushed the airline into bankruptcy; when a Mc Kinsey (yes the same) report said that El-Al had still too many employees, a new strike was initiated to protest the proposed move. And what happened? It was simply the END of El-Al. After 4 months, the Israeli Govt re-established a national airline (with the same name). But if a national airline was not of a vital importance to Israel, we would be speaking of El-Al since then as we have to speak of Pan Am, Braniff or Eastern...

Sabena's employees should understand this, although it's very difficult and painful on a personnal basis. But the alternative would be no work for everybody.
 
OO-AOG
Posts: 1395
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2000 1:24 am

RE: Sabena/Swissair

Wed Jul 04, 2001 9:11 pm

You know, they should only fire the trade unions leaders, and the company would go much better. These guys have so much power, absolute nonsense.
Falcon....like a limo but with wings
 
TriStar
Posts: 834
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 1999 9:03 pm

RE: Toda,Reisinger And Cfalk

Thu Jul 05, 2001 2:06 am

In the name of all SN employees, I thank you for your kind remarks. Your support is greatly appreciated...

Best regards,

TriStar.
 
swake
Posts: 227
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 4:47 am

RE: Cfalk

Thu Jul 05, 2001 2:10 am

Yeah right! And the same goes for AOM/Air Liberte I guess...
Let's face it, the back then SR management largely overestimated themselves, the company's resources and worse, SR's abilities to imply 'solid, reliable swiss aviation management' outside Helvetia's borders.
Who'll be next? LTU? Swissairs ambitions to keep on playing first violin in the alliances concert has brought them on the brink of a precipice and leaving the already crippled airlines (yes indeed, you got that point straightened out very well there, Charles) they took over, at doomsday.
Although I'm in no way connected to Sabena myself nor having an interest in keeping a 'national' airline on its feet (they've got more than their share of the taxpayers money) I resent the Swiss' moves to blame the foreign airlines for their problems after they took the wrong strategi decisions.
best regards
swake
 
LJ
Posts: 4103
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

RE: Sabena/Swissair

Thu Jul 05, 2001 2:56 am

If SR really wants to get out of SN they have one very simple solution. They pursuade the Swiss government not to ratify the open skies treaty between the EU and Switzerland. If they do this they're not allowed (and thus not obliged) to buy the other 49.5% and SN will have to find another partner (or may file for bankruptcy). Moreover, if SR has to buy the other 49.5% they can liquidate the airline more easily (just drain out even more) as they're in full control .

Allhough I'm aware that the SR proposal prohit the Belgian government for investing in SN, I don't understand why the Belgian government persists on SR buying the 49.5% as this would be very bad for SN.

BTW to answer Toda's question: from 1952 SN made only in fiscal 1999 a profit.

Regards
Laurens
 
ltu-a330
Posts: 50
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 3:27 am

RE: Cfalk

Thu Jul 05, 2001 3:52 am

"Who'll be next? LTU? "

Lets see some facts about LTU.

Always bought its a/c,when Sair came lt selled its a/c to "Flightlease?".
Profit goes to Sair not LTU.....
A/c are leased back by LTU, leases are paid to ...'flightlease?".....

Ambitious new colours ....The Swissaraization of all the airlines....(The colours were disgusting anyway)....

Ground handling in DUS (long range),MUC and other German airports "awarded" to Swissport...Stiil trying to sort that mess out.....

So is it LTU's turn to go down the sink?

Only hope for Ltu is that REWE will take complete control these are the people that can fill up the airplanes and brink the company out of the edge...
Something that Swissair failed to do obviously....

All my thoughts go to the SN people
I know the feelings you have now....... Sad
Bill
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: Sabena/Swissair

Thu Jul 05, 2001 3:54 am

Swissair made one huge mistake when they bought into all these loser airlines like Sabena and Air Liberte. They underestimated the socialist, almost communist frame of labor laws in Belgium and france, as well as the typical confrontational labor attitudes. They thought that they could whip these companies into shape, but could not do it without getting hit with a strike.

These confrontational labor unions and socialist labor laws in Belgium and France and other EU countries are the main reason why they have 10+% unemployment rates instead of 4% or less in the U.S. or Switzerland.

So yes, Swissair made mistakes, but their French and Belgian companies refused to bit the bullet, so they share resposibility. Swissair has paid for their part with huge financial losses. Now its the other side's turn.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Hopper
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon May 21, 2001 8:02 am

RE: Sabena/Swissair

Thu Jul 05, 2001 9:50 am

Dear Charles,

I really think that you exagerating about 'communist frame' of labor laws. Other points, beside employment rates, you have to consider are social welfare, poverty, etc. On this levels Belgium & France have a much better record than eg the US.

Concering the Sabena & AOM/Air Liberté (maybe forthcoming LTU) disaster: Sabena paid for a 732 about 40.000 USD/month - the new Airbusses go way over 300.000 USD/month. I can imagine if you can't compensate this by eg high yield passengers you run into problems. The policy based on a important expansion of operations by planes, destinations & capacity, certainly put all those companies in big problems. Everybody in the airline industry knows that the show at Sabena & the others was run by Swissair and quite obviously something went wrong in the business plans (if there was one).

I fear that Swissair will be obliged to provide a solution - one with a lot of CHF.
 
MD-11 forever
Posts: 550
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2001 12:15 am

RE: Sabena/Swissair

Thu Jul 05, 2001 12:41 pm

I'm really fed up to hear odd phrases like "Swissair has to pay its bill", "There are a large amount of jobs connected to Sabena's fate" and so on! Did anyone think about the 72'000 jobs linked to Swissair??? That's about the solidarity the unions always claim for them, it ends on the border of your own country I guess. So for me this seems that since Sabena won't die (government owned), they are going to let Swissair die. Do you think it a good way of acting to block the money-lender's airplane in an illegal action to get some "goodwill"? Let me ask you this, do you take hostages if you go to the bank to get a loan?

I agree with Charles, Swissair paid more than enough yet to let the se "troublemakers" survive until now and get itself near bankruptcy. Now it is time for the Belgian to wake up, coz' the Swiss had their wakeupcall later this year when the losses were announced. But I guess they prefer to sleep some more and send the bills to Zurich, it's much more comfortable then to act and make a change.

Don't blame Swissair that it has bled out Sabena by contracts to atraxis, flightlease and so on. Do you have numbers to proof? Do you think a company would bleed another one out in that way, knowing that they have to pay all the bills at the end of the day itself? If that would have been the goal of Swissair, they surely would have made a contract with an easy way out..... But obviously they didn't.

So please consider that there are job's linked to this story on both ends.... It's not a game, it's bloody serious stuff and also blame the other for mistakes is too late. By the way, there are also Belgian sitting in the Sabena board, ever thought what they did ? They are also liable for their passive way of acting, and didn't yell out when it came to the fleet renewal plans! Maybe they are the minority, but let me ask you just one question, why didn't they put on political pressure then, coz' obviously they can do it now, so why not earlier, if they knew that all the management was that wrong? The sword of making claims at court cuts on both sides......
 
Guest

RE: Sabena/Swissair

Thu Jul 05, 2001 1:07 pm

Too bad DL didn't stay in the Atlantic Excellence alliance with SR/SN/OS...it was a very flexible, "user friendly" alliance...with cooperation in ticketing from all airlines involved...but since DL decided to go with AF, that ended with the expiration of the contract...oh well, SkyTeam is there now..hope it works out..Sabena has many financial problems and if not taken care of, it will go out of business...SAir Group isn't doing good, either.
 
go canada!
Posts: 2886
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2001 1:33 am

RE: Sabena/Swissair

Thu Jul 05, 2001 10:09 pm

quite frankly i wish sabena would hurry up and die.
im very annoyed at their employees wanting to strike, do they think that swissair is going to listern to their opinions? of course it isnt.

Swissair has tried like everyone else to sort out sabena, the fact is its no flamming good and its about time people work up and realised that sabena isnt a well-respected global carrier!

Why should swissair go bankrupt, taking down AOM/Air liberte, LTU, TAP, portguesa and half of europes secondary airlines just because the Belguim government cant wake up and just because sabena employees havent realised that the end is nigh if they carry on in this way.

it must hurt to have ur job on the line, but if u accpet the plans, you may save yourself for job losses will happen but im sure everyone will agree more job losses will occur if swissair falls and sabena falls completely.

its much worse for your economy if you airline goes totally bankrupt, and its much harder to re-start an airline.

so the choice is a smaller airline or no airline at all.thats the hard truth and it must hurt.
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
avion2002
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2001 10:48 pm

RE: Sabena/Swissair

Thu Jul 05, 2001 10:46 pm

Dear 'MD-11 forever',

You wondered whether there were any figures to prove that Swissair has bled out Sabena by contracts to Atraxis, FlightLease and so on.... Well, the Belgian press is full of them ! Recent articles have revealed how much Atraxis invoices for an e-mail account, a move of a PC-terminal, etc ... Those prices are sky-high and hard/software limitations make it further impossible to go aside Atraxis. Also, the Belgian TV compared lease price data between FlightLease and others. Unnecessary to mention that the latter were far lower.

In contrast to what you think, the representatives of Belgium sitting in Sabena's board are not the minority (as they still represent 50.5 % of the shares). But you were right to mention that they didn't yell out when it came to the fleet renewal plans. Why not ? Because they were told SAirGroup was going to co-finance the fleet renewal programme via FlightLease. This did not materialise (because of SAirGroup's weak financial structure, probably), and this now puts Sabena's cash position in jeopardy. This is why the Belgian government is upset : a whole series of agreements are being considered by Swissair as non-existent, although they have been signed or mentioned in protocols.

Reading the Belgian press, be sure that the Belgians are awake (and do not need to "wake up", as you mention). Swissair tried to buy its ticket into the European Union traffic rights via its partication into the Belgian flag carrier as well as to have Switzerland sign an agreement on transport with the EU (which will take some time to gain ratification level). It probably did not calculate exactly beforehand how high this price would have been.






 
airbuspilot
Posts: 382
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2000 8:47 pm

RE: Sabena/Swissair

Fri Jul 06, 2001 12:27 am

Go Canada, go home and redo your homework mate!!!You have not the slightest idea what you are talking about: AOM/Air Liberté are bancrupt already, TAP is no member anymore of the qualiflier group, LTU is in deep shit aswell....What a bullshit-guy you are!!!!

MD-11 forever, if you want just send me your e-mail and I will provide you with all the details you want. You will not be laughing anymore i am afraid!!

I do not think the swiss will die by investing some more.
1° The total of 20 Billion Bef is already forseen in the accountancy of SR for this year

2)They pretend they are so smart, than they should be able to read their contracts and know whats on stake when they brake an agreement!

3)They should no be so greedy in the future. But then again, they have been this way forever (Remeber their role in WW2)

4)They have enough money stuck under their mountains, do no be so hypocrite

C y'all and keep these high level forums open Smile/happy/getting dizzy GOE BEZIG!!!!!

 
User avatar
eta unknown
Posts: 1750
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 5:03 am

RE: Sabena/Swissair

Fri Jul 06, 2001 1:03 am

While I'm sympathetic to SN staff, they need to be reminded of one thing: this airline should have been closed down years ago. Bail out after bail out has occured and still the airline is not profitable- aside for one or two years, has it ever made a significant profit?

Alas, Swissair can always do what Continental did in the 1980's: declare bankruptcy and restart operations the next day under a "new" Swissair name. Then the Belgian Govt. will not be able to get any money for their dying airline.

Sorry SN guys, your flight has finally come to an end this time.
 
RJ100
Posts: 3895
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2000 1:37 am

Airbuspilot

Fri Jul 06, 2001 2:03 am

C'mon Airbuspilot, shut up!

You can be angry against Swissair if you want, I don't care and if you write bullshit like your last post I even care less. But please don't touch my country.

"They should no be so greedy in future. But then again, they have been this way forever (remember their role in WW2)". What do you want to say with that is that Switzerland is racist. Look at me, look at my parents, we are all born after WW2 and I don't feel myself responsable for mistakes that happened before my birth (although I think my country did not make mistakes in WW2...) You say we're racists but if you're writing things like that you're a racist as well because you are generalizing! Are all Germans Nazis just because there was an asshole like Hitler? Of course they are not! Or do all Belgians have sex with small children and kill them just because there was a guy called Marc Dutroux? Of course not!
You're post is very arrogant and an affront against all Swiss people.

"They have enough money stuck under their mountains."
Airbuspilot, you're so childish or simply stupid, I don't know.
I don't want to discuss this point with you. This is not my niveau. Just keep in mind that your pay packet comes from Switzerland right now.

Kind regards,
RJ100

none
 
gibberish
Posts: 411
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2000 5:35 pm

RE: Sabena/Swissair

Fri Jul 06, 2001 2:26 am

Airbuspilot:

It is you who should go home. Get your facts straight before you bash at anyone and stop humiliating yourself.

1. True Switzerland has plenty of money (not "stuck under their mountains" but in the national bank). Swissair has been privatized for quite a few years now and the Swiss government is not obliged to pay a single cent to Swissair and will refuse to do so.

2. Swissair greedy? I'm gonna have to say f*ck you on that one. How dare you call them greedy? They spent nearly 2 billion CHF (yes, thats nine (9) zeros) for other airlines, trying to help them get back to shape, including your beloved sabena.

3. What do mean "pretend to be so smart"? Are you calling blocking a plane (which, btw, is an illegal action, similar to hijacking) smart? That was a blow to Sabena's own face. Very smart. Do you kick yourself in your own ass? I certainly don't.



4. And shut up about WW2 that is completely irrelevant.

Of course you work for Sabena and defend your employer as much as you can. I know there you have a certain pride for your flag carrier. Understandable. But please, try to look at this situation from both sides and respect the fact that Sabena has also made mistakes. I'm not saying Swissair hasn't.

gibberish
 
SR3496
Posts: 774
Joined: Sat May 06, 2000 8:21 pm

RE: Sabena/Swissair

Fri Jul 06, 2001 3:03 am

I do not talk about SR/SN on this forum (anymore) with people like AIrbuspilot but one thing: let WW2 out of this!
 
KUGN
Posts: 606
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2000 4:36 am

RE: Sabena/Swissair

Fri Jul 06, 2001 3:37 am

Hmm, very dissapointing comments by Airbuspilot. It turns that he thinks that for whatever irrelevent reasons, Swissair is obligated to give money to others. And of course, they pick money from trees, or dig out of Swiss mountins.

What a great example of wellfare state mentality.
 
A320-addict
Posts: 249
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2001 1:24 am

Gibberish

Fri Jul 06, 2001 3:45 am

Dear Gibberish,

Most intelligent reply I have read so far regarding this subject.


The blockage of the SR A321 wasn't indeed the smartest thing our unions have done so far. And in my opion as well they have too much power. We will not get any further with such actions, and I really regret them.

We should not get too emotional as well, and not start throwing mud at each other, or mention irrelevant things
(WW2). I sure realize the're a lot of people's jobs involved.

But let's face it...... indeed SN was not a airline in good shape when SR entered. But look at the state it's in now...? All the important decisions that were made the last year came from Zurich. Fleet renewal, ambitious expansion, outside contracts ( citybird, Virgin...).
Indeed the Belgian government did not speak up at that time....which they should have since they still had ( and have ) the majority of the shares.

I would really hurt me to see this beautiful Belgian Bird go down so hard.... It still is a company with a great history, and a good European network with nice airbusses ( indeed they were (too) expensive), and an African netwerk of wich it can be proud!!! No airline has more experience operating flights to Africa than Sabena.

Indeed I am involved as well and I don't know if I will
have a job next week, but still a see a role for Sabena in the future! It might be a smaller airline, or integrated in an other group....but I really hope all the experience it has will not be lost!!

Greetz to all of you
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: Sabena/Swissair

Fri Jul 06, 2001 3:54 am

This is of course an emotional issue for those involved, especially those here who are employed by SABENA and have an uncertain future at this moment. An additional issue is the profound disappointment of Sabena, its staff and the Belgian people, who had such high-hopes concerning the Swissair deal and now see a very real possibilty of Sabena being closed down for good.

In a previous thread, I asked if it would be possible to put SABENA through a "structured - bankrupcty", much like CO did in the past and similiar to what AA did with TWA before it agreed to acquire it. Through this process, all of SABENA's contracts, obligations, and leases could be looked at and renegoatiated; yes, SR and the Belgian goverment would have a loss on the equity, but the current situation is also costing everyone much money and is accomplishing nothing. If Sabena could shed some of its old debts, it could also qualify for some fresh equity or loans.

The employees are a difficult issue for so many reasons, does SN still have too many employees? I do not know but simple comparisons with other carriers should provide an answer. Do SN employees earn too much or have too many benefits? Again, I do not know but one only must look at other european carriers and compare. It may be that some SN employees must go, or that salaries require adjustment, but the airline could be saved if all of this was being handled properly.

Also do not forget the external forces: the world economy is in a downturn at the moment and that does not help, Ryanair is agressively expanding is SN's backyard, and all of the publicity does not encourage pax to make travel plans with SN.

Instead of SR and the Belgian govemenment investing so much energy into fighting over this airline, someone must invest energy into saving it.

 
KUGN
Posts: 606
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2000 4:36 am

RE: Sabena/Swissair

Fri Jul 06, 2001 3:57 am

A320-addict, I hope that there are more people like you in your airline, and I definately wish you well. I hope your company stays around.

Less govermant and union intervention, and then Sabena could become more competitive in this fast pace industry - all the stuff you know very well...
 
A320-addict
Posts: 249
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2001 1:24 am

Kugn

Fri Jul 06, 2001 5:33 am

thx KUGN,

Let's hope Sabena is like a cat, and that it has several lifes..... It would be a real pitty if it disappeared.
Still I don't get it, the biggest mistakes are made at management level.... a lot of our flights are full, and every day I see people getting of the plane with a big smile...., even with delays or other problems.The load factor on our African network is skyhigh, and brings in a lot of many.... it's time we get some competent managers I think.
 
LJ
Posts: 4103
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

RE: Sabena/Swissair

Fri Jul 06, 2001 5:48 am

I think Gibberish made a very good point. Would SN have existed if SR didn't invested in SN some years ago? The state in which SN was at the time was very very bad (maybe worse than today). AF drained SN as much (or even more) as SR has done. Those pointing at SR should bear in mind that SR saved SN from bankruptcy some years ago. Wasn't it under SR mangement that SN service improved?? I'm not a SR supporter, but I feel that some of those are really forgetting all the good things SR has done for SN.

Moreover, the Belgian government knew what SR strategy was at the time (and remeber that most [airline] consultants thought SR's strategy was the best) and accepted it. It's very easy now to say that it's only SR's fault. As we've discussed before on this forum, one of the SN biggest problems has SN created itself (namely bad image). Premium load factors on SN appear to be low while LH, KL and AF appear to be doing very well from BRU. And some people are still wondering why SN is such a bad shape. Maybe Muller's strategy will help but I think it's just too little too late. I also doubt that his plan will go ahead as the pilots already resist lay offs (which are inevitable).

Anyway, a report on Bloomberg suggests that SN is to be bought by another airline. According to Bloomberg, AF, BA, KL or LH have expressed intrest in SN. Without any doubt any sale would mean dismanteling part of the BRU hub and layoffs (as otherwise the shareholders wouldn't accept any purchase of SN). Maybe it's time to focus on the future of SN instead of blaming and sueing (and thus not helping to find a permanent solution for SN)

Finally, time is not on SN's side. Today the largest Dutch newspaper reported that bookings on SN are down "considerably" (10%-15%). If SN doesn't act quickly they'll go bankrupt regardless of the outcome of the legal battle.

Regards
Laurens
 
A320-addict
Posts: 249
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2001 1:24 am

DAT

Fri Jul 06, 2001 5:50 am

There we go again.....

Nie goe bezig hoor DAT, dat is volledig naast de kwestie
 
RJ100
Posts: 3895
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2000 1:37 am

RE: DAT

Fri Jul 06, 2001 6:24 am

We should open a WW2-forum. Only for (Belgian) members. In that forum you all can complain about the bad, bad Swiss guys.

RJ100
none
 
airbuspilot
Posts: 382
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2000 8:47 pm

RE: Sabena/Swissair

Fri Jul 06, 2001 7:37 am

Ok , I agree, maybe that part of my comment was not really at its place. It was certainly not my goal to hurt somebodys feelings.
If you may have read some of my previous comments than you should know that I was one of the guys seeing a big future for the SN/SR alliance.

But try to reember a few things here:

1) It is not because a company makes a decision to invest in another company that it can do whatever it wants with it. Wehave proof of several cases where AMP was more favourable towards SR, we have several flights that where so called not making any profits that where closed and next day SR was operating them, we know all about the leasing contracts well above market value that SN is paying to Swisslease, we know about too much airbusses being ordered by Reutlinger in favour of swiss bankers, we know about the huge prices we have to pay to ATRAXIS ,....

It is true, without SR, SN would never have lasted so long but it is also true that there has been a huge cachflow towards SR the last years...

When you want to start an alliance you have to treat everuone on equal bases and not the way SR wanted. They wanted to be the big chief and play with everybody's feet. DO NOT think that the swiss invested the money because they like all these other companies so much, no they wanted to make BIIIG money.
Nothing wrong withthat off course but this so called charity thing has to stop!!!!!You guys soun as if we should be gratefull to SR.NO WAY!

I was one of the big fans of this alliance. It was wonderfull to see this multi hub and spoke adventure groing. And I certainly have nothing agains swiss people personally but the arrogance with which the SR management has tried to gain controll of european aviation is incredible.

There is anothe forum at this moment concerning SN/SR, take a look at that and you will see that I am not being unreasonable .

Sorry for the onces feeling personally hurt, once again this was not my goal but please stay sober and try to admit the facts here. Both sides made some huge mistakes and somebody has to pay for it.
And once again it will be the people working and flying all days, normal people like yopu and me both on SR as SN side.

Isnt it about time that the responable fot this veadeville get what they deserve, on both sides. They will not loose anything, not a frank!!!Just you and me!

Maybe the sollution exist wit SR and SN together, maybe we all should get together to discuss a strategy against managment. Just maybe.....
 
myself
Posts: 206
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 10:04 pm

RE: Sabena/Swissair

Fri Jul 06, 2001 8:38 am

Want some breaking news ?

SN is officially claiming an additional 500 million Euros (20 billion BEF) from Swissair to pay for the fleet renewal.

Together with the claim of the Belgian Government ( 529 mio Euros ) that makes 1.029 million Euros (41,5 billion BEF)

This adds a very interesting possible scenario to this thriller, because the Belgian Government is now legally allowed to "advance" SN the 500 mio BEF Sabena is claiming from Swissair, without the danger of an objection from the European Commission. ( A very edgy, but absolutely legal construction ! )

Seems like there are still a lot of people in Belgium who are trying to avoid at all cost that SN goes bankrupt and that all the files are made public. Fred Chaffart's appointment apparently was not a coincidence.

Just for your info.....

ps. Let's try to stay polite and respectfull. Many of us are pilots and I think our professional attitude in the cockpit should also be reflected in the postings we put on this forum.


regards
 
Spitfire
Posts: 697
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 2:16 am

RE: Sabena/Swissair

Fri Jul 06, 2001 9:31 am

Ok Airbuspilot (Dag K...), I think you have gone "a bridge too far". Let's make a 180° and continue in a smart and constructive way trying to INFORM people in this forum.
No more direct attacks and that's also true for those not directly involved in the survival of Sabena and Swissair. For those, stop blaming Sabena's employees. They are for nothing in this situation. According to a comparision with 9 major airlines in Europe, in 1998, we were the 4TH concerning the productivity. And that well before the Blue Sky plan ... !!!
For those really interested with the Sabena / Swissair confrontation, we are ready to answer REAL questions, trying to inform you the best we can. But please stop those sterile attacks and do not pray for the death of our company . Like I said elsewhere : your turn can come one day also ( I hope not !).
Kind regards.
Jo
Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
 
Bicoastal
Posts: 2446
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 1999 5:56 am

RE: Sabena/Swissair

Fri Jul 06, 2001 10:18 am

The Sabena death watch continues. Please shut it down and put it out of our misery. They shoot horses, don't they?

Other more efficient airlines will fill the void left by the demise of Sabena. Former Sabena employees and their union leaders need not apply. Once they're out of jobs, they'll realize how good they had it and how greedy they got. And the management....they'll be lucky to manage the local McDonald's franchise.

Airliners.net has many forums. It has spell check and search functions. Use them before posting!
 
myself
Posts: 206
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 10:04 pm

RE: Sabena/Swissair

Fri Jul 06, 2001 10:24 am

Biocastal,

As I just said in the other topic.
 
Spitfire
Posts: 697
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 2:16 am

RE: Sabena/Swissair

Fri Jul 06, 2001 10:36 am

Biocastal,

May I suggest you to read AND TRY TO UNDERSTAND my previous message......
Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
 
TCA256
Posts: 695
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 1999 3:59 am

RE: Sabena/Swissair

Fri Jul 06, 2001 6:24 pm

biocoastal,

very nice comment for all families which could
suffer from SN bankrupt, I really wonder how
could you post such crappy shit....???.........
 
myself
Posts: 206
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 10:04 pm

RE: Sabena/Swissair

Fri Jul 06, 2001 7:30 pm

Some more detailed information :


InfoBeat - Sabena to take action vs. Swissair
By PAUL AMES
Associated Press Writer

BRUSSELS, Belgium (AP) - Sabena airlines told its lawyers to
begin legal action against its partner Swissair on Thursday,
demanding $1.09 billion from the Swiss carrier for not honoring a
commitment to upgrade the Belgian airline's fleet.
Wilfried Remens, the spokesman for Belgium's national airline,
said Sabena supported a Belgian government suit against Swissair
seeking $448 million and added claims for Swissair's alleged
failure to respect promises to support the renewal of Sabena's
fleet.
The legal moves were the latest steps in an acrimonious dispute
between the Belgian government, which owns 51.5 percent of Sabena,
and Swissair Group which holds the rest.
The government suit addresses Swissair's failure to raise its
share in Sabena to 85 percent.
Swissair posted a net loss of 2.9 billion Swiss francs ($1.7
billion) in 2000. It has put much of the blame on investments in
loss-making smaller airlines, including Sabena which posted a net
loss of 325 million euros ($290 million) last year.
Prime Minister Guy Verhofstadt listened Thursday to
representatives of Sabena's 12,000-person work force who expressed
concern about their company's future.
``He told us he wants to see a strong Sabena,'' pilots
representative Joel Gans said after the meeting.
It was not clear Verhofstadt would meet the demands of some
union leaders that the government advance money to Sabena in
anticipation of winning its case against Swissair.
The unions also seek government assurances workers' interests
will be respected under a Sabena restructuring plan which is
reported to involve spinning off such businesses as cargo, catering
and maintenance services.
Swissair flights to and from Brussels operated normally Thursday
after union activists released an Airbus they had blocked on a
Brussels airport runway for 24 hours to protest the airline's
troubled relations with its Belgian partner Sabena.
During Wednesday's standoff, Swissair diverted its
Brussels-bound flights to Maastricht, the Netherlands, 70 miles
east of the Belgian capital.
 
Spitfire
Posts: 697
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 2:16 am

RE: Sabena/Swissair

Fri Jul 06, 2001 10:57 pm

Toda Tca256.Shalom
Sabena ... Never to be forgotten (12 years already , what a shame !! )
 
TCA256
Posts: 695
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 1999 3:59 am

RE: Sabena/Swissair

Fri Jul 06, 2001 11:00 pm

bevakasha spitfire...  Big grin
 
TCA256
Posts: 695
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 1999 3:59 am

RE: Sabena/Swissair

Fri Jul 06, 2001 11:13 pm

bevakasha spitfire...  Big grin
 
airbuspilot
Posts: 382
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2000 8:47 pm

RE: Sabena/Swissair

Sat Jul 07, 2001 4:39 am

I agree, one bridge too far I was, thats the reason of my previous posting.

I am still waiting for some comments though. Maybe something constructive....
 
ILOVEA340
Posts: 2064
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 1999 9:49 am

RE: Airbuspilot

Sat Jul 07, 2001 4:54 am

I don't see why sabena should get any more help especially seeing the situation swissair is in. Why doesn't the belgian government help sabena rather than force a foriegn airline to do so? It is almost as though the belgian government wants to rid of sabena since they are trying to force swissair to buy it off. Swissair made some promisses while they were still finantually sound now that they are not why force them into bankrupcy (that is esensually what sabena and the belgian government are doiung here)
Airbuspilot...
Shut the hell up with your anti swiss crap. as RJ100 said we are by no means a racist country. Just look at the facts... 1/7 people in switzerland is born in a foriegn country. Thats 1 million out of the 7 million total people in CH.
 
airbuspilot
Posts: 382
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2000 8:47 pm

RE: Sabena/Swissair

Sat Jul 07, 2001 5:01 am

ILOVEA340, if you would have read my previous posts you would know that your reaction is totally unnecessary......

Maybe you should read all these postings here, than you will know what we are talking about....
 
ILOVEA340
Posts: 2064
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 1999 9:49 am

RE: Sabena/Swissair

Sat Jul 07, 2001 6:07 am

I'm sorry I should have checked. That post just really pissed me off.
 
Willy
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2005 12:55 am

RE: Sabena/Swissair

Sat Jul 07, 2001 6:07 am

Airbuspilot,
Wow, 1 million foreigners working in your country, slavery isn't out of the world...
First, Swissair fucked it up in Sabena, now you tell us that even our government shouldn't mind, get real pls !
Arrogant litle boy
 
myself
Posts: 206
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 10:04 pm

RE: Sabena/Swissair

Sat Jul 07, 2001 6:21 am

Willy,

as I recall, ILOVEA340 said that 1 out of 7 people.......and not Airbuspilot.

Please ALL of YOU !

Let the things you read find the way to your brains before you make judgements or get personal !

Very constructive forum topic !!!!!!!!!!!