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Plane Holland
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Old Aircraft, What's America Doing?

Sun Jul 08, 2001 7:14 pm

Having read the Delta dislikes thread, I'm very curious about the American point of view on all those older aircraft flying around.. for example the enormous fleet of 727's and several other which are very pollutant. I read, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it..." But I think they're broke in some way.. They're beatiful but doesn't take away the noise and pollution. When are they going to be replaced? After november you'll have to dig for the 727 in Europe.

rgds, A.
 
OH-LZA
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RE: Old Aircraft, What's America Doing?

Sun Jul 08, 2001 8:37 pm

Most American's (including G.W Bush) don't care about pollution, so as long as they can fly them safely it's no problem for them.

Save the TWFirst Volumes!

Zulu Alpha
 
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B737-112
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RE: Old Aircraft, What's America Doing?

Sun Jul 08, 2001 8:51 pm

The 727's have paid for themselves hundreds of times over and continue to serve faithfully. Every time they complete a route their original purchase is made more profitable. True, a new 737 or 757 has better seat mile cost and fewer pilots to pay but that's over a $30 million purchase and it takes many years to make the money back.
 
Guest

OH-LZA

Sun Jul 08, 2001 8:52 pm

---Most American's (including G.W Bush) don't care about pollution, so as long as they can fly them safely it's no problem for them.---

Well that´s waht I call crap!!!!

That´s a typical prejudice. I bet there are many americans, who are interested in how to decrease the pollution.
Only because Mr. Bush doesn´t care about that it doesn´t mean that all americans have this attitude towards pollution.

And by the way what´s about russia and other countries. In a country where all the oldies are still flying too?

You just can´t say most americans or most russian as well as you can´t say most europeans.

But believe me the europeans are not really better. Here in Germany it´s often said that we will decrease the output of CO2 within five year about lets say 10% and after 4 years we hear that we won´t reach our goal.

So pollution is a very difficult topic, which we sould not abuse to fight another europe vs us war.

Daniel aka Boeing-Lover

 
HlywdCatft
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RE: Old Aircraft, What's America Doing?

Sun Jul 08, 2001 9:55 pm

Why does everyone gotta make this a democrat/republican thing?????

Why are you blaming Bush for 727s polluting???

Clinton had EIGHT years to do something about it and he DIDN'T!
 
FDXmech
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RE: Old Aircraft, What's America Doing?

Sun Jul 08, 2001 10:04 pm

Plane Holland,

727's are actually becoming a rare sight in the U.S. as they ARE being phased out. And with the economic slowdown, most airlines are retiring their 727's at an accelerated rate.

Now I don't like throwing stones, but Concorde is amongst the noisiest, fuel thirsty (therefore polluting) commercial aircraft in existance, yet is Europe planning on outlawing it, no (I personnally hope it flies soon).

OH-LZA,

You're quite young so you might not realize that the U.S. has been at the forefront of pollution control for decades (don't believe all the propaganda you read).

I remember back in the 70's till recently, when someone bought an expensive European car, the same car bought in Europe was always faster. Reason being when the car was exported to the US, the car had to have addition pollution control devices added to comply with strict US auto emmision laws. From my recollection, Europe didn't become serious about pollution until acid rain from their antiquited.
powerplants started killing their forests.
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
Guest

RE: Old Aircraft, What's America Doing?

Sun Jul 08, 2001 10:42 pm

FACT

76% of Americans agree that global warming is a problem to worry about, while 67% believe that President Bush should work towards implementing the Kyoto Protocol.
 
Gregg
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RE: Old Aircraft, What's America Doing?

Sun Jul 08, 2001 10:48 pm

Old a/c in the US? How much polution does production of a new a/c cause? If an old 727 is still safe, and it has been upgraded to Stage III noise compliance, lets fly it.
 
cv640
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RE: Old Aircraft, What's America Doing?

Sun Jul 08, 2001 10:53 pm

The 727 is being replaced by most carriers, within 5 year sthere will be very few left in passenger service. The reason it has taken longer in the US is that we have bigger fleets. It is a lot more expensive to replace 150-200 aircraft then 50 or less 727s that most Eurpoean carriers operated. Plus, if you look most European carriers are in deire financial trouble, besides high labor cost another is that they are constatntly replacing their fleets.
 
galaxy5
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RE: Old Aircraft, What's America Doing?

Mon Jul 09, 2001 12:27 am

why replace a perfectly good airframe. thats whats wrong with alot of people in here ( from what ive noticed ) if its not brand new then its no good. geez the 727 is one of the cheapest planes to operate since most are paid off and they are so easy to maintain and operate why replace then. even if you put new engines and avionics in them the airframe would still be cheaper than newer aircraft and serve many years to come.
"damn, I didnt know prince could Ball like that" - Charlie Murphy
 
LOT767-300ER
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RE: Old Aircraft, What's America Doing?

Mon Jul 09, 2001 12:54 am

FDXmech-Excuse me I see more 727 here than any other type landing at O'Hare! We have UAL which has a huge amount of them, NWA flies them here, Ryan Int'l on behalf of the USPS flies them. Planet flies them occasionally here. I do however agree ORD is an exception to the rule and that other airports don't see much 727 traffic as much as ORD probably

LOT767-300ER
http://www.geocities.com/lot767/index.html
 
heavymetal
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RE: Old Aircraft, What's America Doing?

Mon Jul 09, 2001 3:06 am

So we're the bad guys because of a few 727's?


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Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Charles Falk



Here's just one of many ex-Soviet types trapsing through the pure clean air of Europe, this one in Geneva three weeks ago. I guarantee you that a 727 on a bad day doesn't cook out as much gunk as this crate.

Why aren't Europeans(most of whom are in countries who have yet to sign the Kyoto Treaty) cracking down on smokers like these?
 
MEA-707
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RE: Old Aircraft, What's America Doing?

Mon Jul 09, 2001 3:24 am

The Il-76s actually ARE banned from most European airports now. I guess an exception has been made for above aircraft because it's a government or relief or UN flight (reading it's Geneva makes that more probable).
There's a good point in the remark making a new plane and scrapping an old one costs lots of energy too.
And I keep track of the US fleet of 727s and it's dwindling quite fast. Delta parks 3 or 4 727s a months, American 2 and United will also start to withdrawn 2 every month. And Continental, TWA, Alaska and US Airways already stopped flying it some time ago.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
b757300
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RE: Old Aircraft, What's America Doing?

Mon Jul 09, 2001 3:31 am

Certain people on this forum just love to go around trying to incite Airbus vs. Boeing and/or Europe vs. America flame wars. In the future, we should all ignore them and let the thread die.

Since we're on the topic.....

Palma de Mallorca (- Son San Juan) (PMI / LEPA / LESJ)
Spain, June 2001
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Photo © Toni Marimon



Oporto (- Francisco sa Carneiro) (OPO / LPPR)
Portugal, June 2001
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Photo © Luis Goncalves



Edinburgh - Turnhouse (EDI / EGPH)
UK - Scotland, July 2, 2001
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Photo © Colin Abbott



Zurich (- Kloten) (ZRH / LSZH)
Switzerland, June 13, 2001
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Photo © Peter Unmuth



Zurich (- Kloten) (ZRH / LSZH)
Switzerland, June 8, 2001
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Photo © Peter Unmuth



Hannover (HAJ)
Germany, June 6, 2001
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Photo © MR



Vienna - Schwechat (VIE)
Austria, June 17, 2001
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Photo © Dietmar Schreiber



Berlin - Tegel (TXL / EDDT)
Germany, October 2000
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Photo © Thomas Noack



Palma de Mallorca (- Son San Juan) (PMI / LEPA / LESJ)
Spain, June 8, 2001
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Photo © Toni Marimon



London - Gatwick (LGW / EGKK)
UK - England, June 3, 2001
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Photo © Garry Lewis



Amsterdam - Schiphol (AMS / EHAM)
Netherlands, May 2, 2001
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Photo © George Polfliet

"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
FDXmech
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RE: Old Aircraft, What's America Doing?

Mon Jul 09, 2001 3:59 am

Some 727 projections (from AWAST Sourcebook).

Year End Fleet........ 1998..........2002
********************************
American Airlines.........77............10
United Airlines............75.............55
Delta Airlines.............130............62
Northwest Airlines.......38.............12
Continental Airlines..............0..........
TWA.................................0..........

These projections were prior to announced accelerated retirements.
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
il-96lover
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RE: Old Aircraft, What's America Doing?

Mon Jul 09, 2001 4:21 am

Of course you can sometimes see very old birds in europe too.

Correct me if i´m wrong, but as far as I know the avarage fleet age of the european majors (KL, AF, LH, BA, SR ... )is much younger than of the US-majors
The same for the charter-carriers.

I don´t want to start an America vs Europe war, but i´d like to know the reasons for this.

One reason might be that european passengers just don´t feel safe in an old jet. They think a 25 year old car is crap, so must be a 25 year old plane.
 
Flaps
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RE: Old Aircraft, What's America Doing?

Mon Jul 09, 2001 4:33 am

One other reason is the fact that US carriers must be self supporting. This only recently became a reality in Europe and even now govenments continue to pour money into many failing carriers. Over here you make money or die, therefore you dont spend $30-50 million to replace a perfectly good, PAID FOR aircraft with a new model that does the same thing.
 
dutchjet
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RE: Old Aircraft, What's America Doing?

Mon Jul 09, 2001 4:49 am

A couple of other points, at this point, most 727-200 aircraft have been fitted with Stage 3 hush-kits to help make these older aircraft more envoirnmentally friendly - not a total answer, but it helps. Also, there were a huge number of 727s in the US fleets at one time and it just takes time and lots of money to replace all of these aircraft. Several airlines (ie, CO) have already retired their 727s, NW is close to completing its 727s replacement program (true, it still has its DC9s to think about), and AA, UA, DL have huge outstanding orders for new generation 737s and A320 series airliners intended to replace the 727s. Also, dont forget, the larger airliners expanded greatly in recent years, and thus many kept 727s in their fleets longer than initially planned, while accepting new planes, to keep this expansion going. With the world economy slowing down, economics may accelerate 727 retirement, UA and others have recently announced that they will ground several of these planes more quickly than originally planned.
 
galaxy5
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RE: Old Aircraft, What's America Doing?

Mon Jul 09, 2001 4:56 am

dont worry though many 727s will go toward cargo ops since they are so cheap and reliable and with them being phased out of the large companies there will be plenty of 727s to be picked up by smaller operators
"damn, I didnt know prince could Ball like that" - Charlie Murphy
 
il-96lover
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Flaps

Mon Jul 09, 2001 5:06 am

No, it´s not that easy!

Swissair for example has always been self supporting, but has an a very modern fleet.

Or have look at the fleet age of the following german charter carriers, wich have always been self supporting too:

Airline: years:

LTU 6.5
Aero Lloyd 2
Air Berlin 2
Condor 4.5
Hapag Lloyd 4
Germania 3
Sun Express 1 (!)

I found it on www.focus.de

So there must be any other reasons!
 
Philly Phlyer
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RE: Yes, It Is That Easy.

Mon Jul 09, 2001 7:08 am

Il-96lover:

Sorry, but it is that easy. This is a case of pure economics and fleet size.

First I will address the economics. Commercial domestic US aviation has been de-controlled and open to competition since the 1970s and US domestic airlines have to trim costs to compete (among other things). Those that don't, do not survive. You cannot compare airlines competing in the domestic US industry to airlines that predominantly fly international routes (Swissair) with more controls and higher revenue per seat mile to cover the higher cost of flying newer fleets.

Second, as many previous posters have pointed out, it takes a lot longer to introduce new aircraft and train the crews if you are replacing 200 instead of 50 aircraft.
 
travaz
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RE: Old Aircraft, What's America Doing?

Mon Jul 09, 2001 8:53 am

When at LHR in Feb it was a beautiful sight (and Sound) to see the regular sked TU 134 "Smoke" on out toward the Balkins. The oldest US owned plane I saw was a 767 from UA. Hmmmm

Happy Flying
 Smile
 
VonRichtofen
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RE: Old Aircraft, What's America Doing?

Mon Jul 09, 2001 1:22 pm

As a Canadian, I think I have a fairly un-biased opinion here.

I must say I agree with the Americans. If there's one thing the U.S. can show the rest of the world is how to make the most of what you got to maximize profit and company efficiency. How do you think they became the most economically powerful country in the world? Also American companies get no help from their government, unlike alot of companies in other countries.

I don't understand why so many europeans in this forum are constantly throwing flak at the U.S. about the environment. Like they're the only country in the world that pollutes anything. The U.S. is one of the most modern countries in the world. I'm not just talking planes here, cars, factorys, etc. How come I don't see any posts about India or other countries with HUGE populations and sub-standard conditions. You can't tell me that the U.S. pollutes more than they do! Europe isn't exactly the garden of eden either. Is London any cleaner than any American city?

Lately there's been alot of America/Boeing bashing by some europeans and others, I hate to say it but even some of my fellow canadians have jumped on the "bash the U.S." bandwagon and I'm getting tired of it.

Regards,

Kris
 
airlinelover
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RE: Old Aircraft, What's America Doing?

Mon Jul 09, 2001 1:29 pm

NWA is phasing out the 727's with A320's (I hear) and I heard that the 727 will be phased out of the US commercial fleet by 2005..Correct me if I'm wrong.

Chris
Lets do some sexy math. We add you, subtract your clothes, divide your legs and multiply
 
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Plane Holland
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RE: Old Aircraft, What's America Doing?

Mon Jul 09, 2001 6:27 pm

Interesting comments.. Some people see this as an attack to the US. It's not.. I'm only asking your point of view . I'm not stating Europe is better..  Smile . We (Amsterdam) are banning some airlines and aircraft. The Balkan Tupolev would get fined or land at a high price. For example, the DC10 will be phased out of AMS. EU countries are to quickly phase out older aircraft, so there won't be many anymore in a while. (OA, IB). Aeroflot has given good example by using Boeing 777 and 737 on European routes. But thats's mainly because Europe charges higher prices for old aircraft. I think it's the country's responsiblity to make sure more environmentally friendly aircraft will be used and also in Europe some country's have to learn.

rgds. A.
 
Catflap
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RE: Old Aircraft, What's America Doing?

Mon Jul 09, 2001 8:44 pm

It is my understanding that the US undermined legislation to rid the skies of old crates by extensive use of hush-kits. As I understand it, hush-kits render an aircraft less fuel efficient and therefore more polluting. I understood that Europe was attempting to ban the use of hush-kits but that the US threatened to start a trade-war. I see no reason to pussy-foot around the Americans, They produce 80% of the world's greenhouse gases. If they really supported Kyoto and reductions they wouldn't have elected Bush.
 
cfalk
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RE: Old Aircraft, What's America Doing?

Mon Jul 09, 2001 9:49 pm

Catflap,

You seem to be flapping your mouth again. 80%??? Where did you hear that one.

Hush-kits are a way to extend the life of a productive asset for a few more years. Yes, the price is a reduction in power output (which in turn requires higher throttle settings, ergo more fuel burn). But which do you want - Less noise or less fuel consumption.

The reason airlines fly a 727 is that you can buy one of those for just a couple of million dollars. Relatively low-tech, so training and spares is not a big deal. In other words, it's affordable. Not all airlines are flush with cash like Singapore Airlines.

You might also consider that a company like Sabena might not be in as bad a shape if they had kept their older planes for a few more years.

>If they really supported Kyoto and reductions they wouldn't have elected Bush<

If you are so shortsighted as to vote for or against a person based on one single issue, I'm glad you don't have a vote in the U.S.. God help England however.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
heavymetal
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RE: Old Aircraft, What's America Doing?

Tue Jul 10, 2001 3:43 am

It makes simply no sense to demand the grounding of older less fuel efficient jets simply because the whims of the Greens demand it.

Look at it this way....there are fewer 727s, DC-9s, 737-200s, BAC 111s (or did they spew lilacs and dew from their engines?) ...now than thirty years ago. Thirty years from now there will be only a handful, if that.

Based on your 'jetliner exhaust is dooming the world and the Americans are to blame' theory, statistically the air is already getting cleaner.

And as much of a Concorde fan as I am, there are fewer more polluting machines in the air...in addition to its' exhaust, I've heard that during flights you can actually smell the ozone being cooked off the speeding hull. That's the same stuff, of course, we as a species need to block dangerous UV sunlight.

Who should you guys elect to deal with that?
 
flight152
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RE: Old Aircraft, What's America Doing?

Tue Jul 10, 2001 5:12 am

Catflap-

Your numbers are extremly flawed! 80%- where did you get that from your as*?

Hush kits reduce noise therefore reduce noise pollution.

Let me tell you every European city is not a pile of roses either!
 
Guest

RE: Old Aircraft, What's America Doing?

Tue Jul 10, 2001 5:15 am

Fab 4,
I completely agree with what you, Cfalk, and Heavymetal, are saying, but you lose credibility when you end your post as you did. Even though their lack of logic can be infuriating, don't reinforce their stereotypes of Americans. Yes, they believe that European poo does not stink, but the reason just might be that they have gotten used to it from having their heads in close proximity to its source. Don't take it personally, some folks have to do that to feel better about themselves. No need to beat your head against that wall.

Jim
 
747-451
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RE: OH-LZA

Tue Jul 10, 2001 8:07 am

Like they care in "Europe" about pollution:

Europe took longer than anywhere else to install emission controls on cars trucks etc. (Japan has had emittions since the early 60's , California since 1964 and the rest of the US and Canada since 1968)

The Danube and Rhine are amongst the most polluted bodies of water in the world.

Paris and Rome have such pollution from traffic jams

Russian Nuclear cities (Khyshtym, Krasnoyarsk, Chelyabinsk, Tomsk7 & et al) overflowing with pollution, unabated. (even up til 1993 were disasters happening )

Chemical plant explosion in 1952 at Ludwigshaffen, FRG

Chernobyl

French still using Nuclear Power

Windscale in UK

Older Russian aircraft which even when new polluted more, consumed more fuel and were basically always a generation behind Airbus, Boeing, MDC, BAe etc.

So much for the "European" examples. Look at the pot calling the kettle black...Sure the US has its share of wretched mess (Love Canal, 1000 plus Superfund sites etc...), but I wouldn't complain about 727's flying around. Whats worse, some noise and smoke from a 727 or let's say, Windscale???

Yes, 727's and older 737s are still flying. Bought, paid for and all Stage III compliant in the US. And yes, their days are numbered. Delta has accelerated their disposal. NW is dumping DC-9's. Air Canada is retiring the last of the DC-9's soon.

Bush bashing is kind of boring after a while. If you want to make an issue of "pollution" take things in the aggregate, "it's not just planes". Oh, PS...Clinton did his share to take the "teeth" out of Superfund Laws in the US and really made NO dramatic improvements either. Why is it that the US EPA, Environment Canada and Japan's interior ministry have been doing more for over 35 years and Europe is only doing things "now" under the EU????
 
747-451
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RE: IL-96Lover

Tue Jul 10, 2001 8:17 am

Perhaps because if let's say Delta has 150+ 727's to dispose of and let's say Air France (which dumped theirs long ago) has 30 who can dump them faster? You cant just get rid of 100 planes over night. Boeing or Airbus is not like a car assembly line (LOL)
 
cv640
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RE: Old Aircraft, What's America Doing?

Tue Jul 10, 2001 9:20 am

Yes the US has a lot of polluted sites, but we also have some of the cleanest natural preserves in the world. We aren't going forward with Koyto, but neither is almost every other country in the world. That doessn't mean we don't care about the environment, it just means we are going to clean up in other ways.
 
Guest

RE: Catflap

Tue Jul 10, 2001 9:47 am

80%--it is one thing to use statistics out of context, it is quite another to just make them up. And with Flap shooting off his "80%," it is pretty clear that it just got pretty deep in here.

Here are the real statistics:

1) The United States produces approximately 25% of the world's man-made greenhouse gases.

2) The United States produces approximately 25% of the world's goods and services.

3) Man-made greenhouse gases account for approximately 5% of the greenhouse gases produced worldwide per annum.

4) Aviation produces approximately 3% of the world's man-made greenhouse gases.

I think the conclusions that can be drawn from this are pretty clear:

1) The United States produces an amount of pollution commensurate with its economic activity;

2) Man-made greenhouse gas production accounts for a tiny portion of the total greenhouse production worldwide. The remainder is caused by things such as animals breathing, forest fires, volcanos, and other naturally occurring phenomena.

3) Making marginal improvement in aircraft emissions will do very little as aviation creates so little (relatively-speaking) pollution. Time and energy would be better spent devising cleaner automobiles or power plants.

Sorry, guys, but this is a red herring if ever there was one.

 
Teej13
Posts: 447
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2001 5:52 am

RE: Catflap

Tue Jul 10, 2001 10:52 am

So the Europe vs US battle continues...

A couple of thoughts:

- I think the Americans are doing well with what they've got on this one. The 727s are on the way out, and there' s little else that can be done. They've even accelerated the process, so they're hardly at fault here. I think by jumping on their backs on this issue, credibility on other issues is taken away. I've got some serious issues with some of the policy coming form the U.S., but their in the right here. Criticise them on the right things.

- I've seen a whole slew of 737-200s in Europe - they're not much cleaner - that nasty plume of exhaust that follows a 732 take off is pretty gross. Both sides of the pond are doing well - have a look at the retirement plans before asserting an opinion.

- For crying out loud, Russia is not in Europe! The EU represents a finite number of countries.

Cheers,
T.J.

 
heavymetal
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RE: Old Aircraft, What's America Doing?

Tue Jul 10, 2001 12:05 pm

To our European friends,

- The Supermarine Spitfire may have , along with the brave men who flew it the summer of 1940, it could be argued saved not just England but humanity from the horrific grasp of Adolph Hitler.

- Every American I've spoke to who has ridden on an Avro RJ loves it's roominess and quiet. Though I've heard it's a bit complicated for flight crews, for passengers at least it is the Rolls Royce (or Cadillac!) of the skies..

- Americans rode to the moon on an idea whose seed was planted from German ingenuity.

- For better or worse, we all didn't vote for G.Dubya Bush. At least I think we didn't! (My county of origin in my profile will cause a few eyes to roll.)

- And finally, you are builders of without a doubt the most gorgeous passenger airplane ever. May they be airborne, performing their supersonic duties again very soon.

No hard feelings.
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Old Aircraft, What's America Doing?

Tue Jul 10, 2001 12:06 pm

Teej13:
>- For crying out loud, Russia is not in Europe! The EU represents a finite number of countries.

Pick up you nearest atlas and tell us what continent Russia is in. Most of Russia is in Asia but most big cities are in the European section.
East and west is all political. True Russia doesn't belong to the EU. That is only a political pack.


To everyone:
How can you call yourself a true aviation fan if you don't like jet noise?
I am as liberal as they come and I love to hear the sound of a 727, 707, VC-10 and IL-62!
I love to see the trail of smoke behind the jet after takeoff!
I can care less about stage III noise restrictions. I have no sympathy for those rich jerks that buy $700,000 homes near airports and complain about jet noise.
I think the A320 and 757-300 is some of the most boring aircraft in the air. But hear it's an aircraft and I'd rather be on one right now rather than arguing a foolish topic like this!

Long live the 727 ! !


Bring back the Concorde
 
flight152
Posts: 3212
Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2000 8:04 am

RE: Old Aircraft, What's America Doing?

Tue Jul 10, 2001 12:29 pm

Superfly-


How can you call yourself a true aviation fan if you don't like jet noise?

It is not that we do not like it, but jet noise harms the enviroment, even hear of noise pollution?

 
KUGN
Posts: 606
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2000 4:36 am

RE: Old Aircraft, What's America Doing?

Tue Jul 10, 2001 12:35 pm

Flight142, well I'm sorry to say this but if you think this way you are in wrong hobby. Perheps you should try balooning.

Does ever concern for the economics ever makes a touchdown in Europe? Is there anything to be learned from Sabena story?

What do you like better? Noise-polluting bad bad 737s or airline that goes broke sending its 4000 to wellfare?
 
Teej13
Posts: 447
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2001 5:52 am

Superfly

Tue Jul 10, 2001 12:48 pm

The remarks on borders were political and economic, not directly geographical. When views from "Europe" appear in this discussion page, they tend to represent that of the European Union, which also excludes a large number of eastern European countries, such as the Czech Republic and the Ukraine (one of Russia's largest, and only, trading partners from the continent). The reason being, these are the only nations of economic significance, particularly when delaing with air travel. So generally, when the "European" viewpoint is expressed, it is within the confines of the EU.
 
KUGN
Posts: 606
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2000 4:36 am

RE: Old Aircraft, What's America Doing?

Tue Jul 10, 2001 12:57 pm

I beg to differ Teej13.

When someone says Europe, I think of Europe as a whole, Western and Eastern; Russia is separate case.

When someone says EU, then we are talking about European Union.

Lets keep terminology in check.
 
trintocan
Posts: 2728
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2000 6:02 pm

RE: Old Aircraft, What's America Doing?

Tue Jul 10, 2001 1:54 pm

A very interesting topic, those discussions from both sides are great. Keep it rolling!

As for why (Western) European fleets are generally newer than American ones (although that is now rapidly changing), here is what I think:

1. Smaller fleets to replace - the average European airline has 60-100 planes in total, some are actually smaller than that. US airlines have 250-600 or even more planes. Think about it, if a company like Coca-Cola tried to replace even 300 trucks in a short time that would be a costly move. Replacement of even 50 planes at a time is even more costly.

2. International routes - the European airlines have smaller home bases so that international traffic is more important. In large part, therefore, these airlines competed heavily with one another in promoting rival countries and hubs as European gateways. To attract that traffic the airlines placed a premium on service and an overall good image, into which new aircraft fit perfectly.

3. Subsidies - like it or not, the fact that these airlines have been heavily State sponsored (or owned) has facilitated their plane replacement and their losses in other departments. US airlines do not have that comfort back-up so they kept the older jets, which were paid for and thus earned profits, for longer.

4. Airbus - again, like it or not, Airbus has many European participants and so encouragement of the airlines to buy Airbuses actually boosted local economies by enhancing production. BA and SAS have been notable exceptions to this rule, being strongly Boeing and MD respectively.

Eastern European countries have had greater financial difficulties and so all-new fleets are not the rule there. However, many of their airlines have bought or leased western planes such as 737s, 767s, 757s and some Airbuses (LOT and Malev are purely Western now) in order to serve Western European ports which became reluctant to continue handling the older, noisier and more polluting Soviet types. Additionally, it again became an image thing as the airlines strove to capture the Western tourist market for their respective nations and thus the need for western planes, with which western flyers felt more comfortable as a rule. Some of the carriers still use Russian types on the lower-profile routes within Eastern Europe and the CIS.

High profitability and the desire to present a high-profile image are the reasons that some Far East airlines like SIA and some Middle Eastern airlines like Emirates and Gulf Air have brand new fleets.

US carriers, with their many domestic destinations scattered into complex webs of services, generally require large numbers of planes at any one time to ensure that the entire networks can be operated at all times. Thus, while their fleets may be large very few planes are actually surplus to requirements. This, plus an increasing demand for flights, has meant that 727s have lived on despite the introductions of replacements like 757 then 737-400 and only now, with 737-800 and A320 coming in, are they actually being retired.

A closing point here - while a European airline may fly from its base to, say, Heathrow 10 times daily, Paris 10 times and other regional ports 3-5 times daily on average and fly different long-haul routes on different days (with the exception of the majors like JFK, ORD, YYZ and possibly NRT), US carriers fly to almost every destination, local and international, several times daily and may have 15-20 flights daily between many city pairs. That difference in scope can easily account for the need to keep all those planes flying.

So, it is not a purely environmental matter here, although both sides have been introducing tougher regulations on noise and emissions and airlines on both sides have been adapting to them.

Trintocan.
Hop to it, fly for life!
 
nwa747-400
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RE: Old Aircraft, What's America Doing?

Tue Jul 10, 2001 2:07 pm

Airlinelover (chris):

Actually NW 727s should be gone by early 2003 at the latest. They are down to less than 30 now I believe.

Sad to see them do as they are still good aircraft, but the three engines and three pilots hurts the bank.

 
Catflap
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RE: Old Aircraft, What's America Doing?

Tue Jul 10, 2001 5:31 pm

Wow, what a thread. I would like to apologise unreservedly for making up the figure of 80%. It clearly stung a number of you into action to defend your country.

But what about the hush-kit argument ? The EU doesn't want to ban hush-kits for no good reason. It is my understanding that hush-kits do little to address landing noise, and whilst they allow aircraft to be defined as Stage 3 compliant the noise levels are still much greater than planes which have been designed to meet the specification. In practise, individual (European) airports are now making distinctions between hush-kitted aircraft and what are becoming known as 'genuine' Chapter 3 craft. And while we still have hush-kitted planes crashing around the skies for an indefinite period of time, what is the point of discussing Chapter 4 ?
 
KUGN
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RE: Old Aircraft, What's America Doing?

Tue Jul 10, 2001 7:12 pm

Catflap, you still don't think avout economics; read Trintocan's post again, and then you'll see the reasoning behind huskits. Its impossible to ban all of Stage 3 aircrafts at once; phaseout has to come thru Stage 4 program.

Additionaly, WN Boy has nailed some real facts about pollution and what portion comes from aviation.


Parra, your post has nothing to do with this topic.
 
Catflap
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RE: Old Aircraft, What's America Doing?

Tue Jul 10, 2001 8:50 pm

As far as I understand it the proposals for Stage 4 compliance will only apply to new aircraft. There will be no phase-out comparable to the chapter 2 phase-out . Consequently, hush-kitted planes can keep flying indefinitely, restricted only by rules which individual airports are able to apply. It seems ridiculous to me, to set expensive, tough new standards for newly-built aircraft, but not to impose a time-frame for phasing-out the old ones. As numerous people on this board have pointed out, old planes aren't like cars. They'll keep flying until they break or until someone legislates to ground them. I'm surprised that the aircraft manufacturers aren't pushing for a phase-out. I would if I was them.
 
cfalk
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RE: Old Aircraft, What's America Doing?

Tue Jul 10, 2001 9:07 pm

>They'll keep flying until they break or until someone legislates to ground them. I'm surprised that the aircraft manufacturers aren't pushing for a phase-out. <

No they don't. They keep flying them until the economics of keeping them flying becomes worse than shelling out $30 or 40 million (minimum) for a new(er) plane which costs less to operate. Airlines which have very high utilization rates (e.g. Southwest Airlines or EasyJet) will reach that point relatively quickly, which is why you will rarely see them operate aircraft more than 15 years old or so. Airlines which have their planes in the air only 20 or 30% of the time can wait a little longer.

And of course, the manufacturers would LOVE to have all the airlines change out their entire fleets avery few years, and for governments to ban from their airspace any aircraft more than 10 years old. They'd have to triple their production capacity to keep up with demand. But of course, if that happened, you'd see airfares go through the roof, because somebody has to pay for these new toys.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Old Aircraft, What's America Doing?

Tue Jul 10, 2001 11:25 pm

Let's face it folks.

The US airline industry will be buying a substantial amount of new planes by 2010 for these reasons:

1. The new planes will only require two crew members, so you can subtract the cost of a flight engineer (e.g., DC-10's, L1011's, and 727-200's).

2. The older jets are going to be outlawed due to strict noise rules around airports nowadays.

3. The older jets have high CSM's (costs per seat-mile) due to the high fuel burn, important with the price of Jet A fuel approaching US$2.00/US gallon.

4. The older jets have high maintainance costs due to the fact a lot of them are shorter-range jets with lots of takeoff and landing cycles on the airframe.

It's reason #4 that will be the main reason for the demise of older jets in the USA by 2010.
 
flight152
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RE: Old Aircraft, What's America Doing?

Wed Jul 11, 2001 12:35 am

KUGN-

You loose your credibilty when you tell someone to change hobbies, expically if they are active in this website!

I was answering Superfly's question, no need to jump all over my back, I fly "big bad" 737's too.
 
flight152
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RE: Old Aircraft, What's America Doing?

Wed Jul 11, 2001 12:38 am

KUGN-

You loose your credibilty when you tell someone to change hobbies, expically if they are active in this website!

I was answering Superfly's question, no need to jump all over my back, I fly "big bad" 737's too.

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