aduum
Posts: 324
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2000 5:24 pm

Ansett To Go All Airbus...

Thu Jul 19, 2001 12:14 am

This is an article that I found in the paper by Geoffrey Thomas. It looks at Ansett's fleet renewal choices.

---------------

The ownership uncertainty has not stalled plans for Ansett's fleet renewal program.

The airline looks to be headed for an all Airbus fleet for its major domestic operations as the leasing division of SIA moves to secure 10, 300-seat Airbus A330 aircraft for delivery next year.

The Airbus A330-200s would be a major part of Ansett's fleet revamp which will also include a big fleet of smaller 150seat jets.

According to industry sources, the Airbus A330s are earmarked for Ansett.

Whichever course the NZ Government takes, SIA will be a major player in Ansett's fleet renewal program.

On that basis, SIA management is looking at options to revamp quickly Ansett's ageing fleet. SOme of Ansett's 200-seat Boeing 767-200s have the highest number of flight hours and the highest number of flight cycles in the world.

ANd Ansett faces new competition from Qantas' A330-300s and A330-200ss which will be delivered late next year.

One option was for Ansett to take some of SIA's Boeing 300-seat 777s but these are considered too heavy for short-haul domestic routes and the 767 is not as wide as the A330. Another problem has been delivery positions of the 777s which are the world's best selling twin aisle aircraft.
----------------------

All speculation but still weighs up their options pretty well.
 
go canada!
Posts: 2886
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RE: Ansett To Go All Airbus...

Thu Jul 19, 2001 12:28 am

i think its got to find some money first!!!!!
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
aduum
Posts: 324
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RE: Ansett To Go All Airbus...

Thu Jul 19, 2001 12:33 am


true....true
 
Teej13
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RE: Ansett To Go All Airbus...

Thu Jul 19, 2001 1:40 am

Look at the Star Alliance people go.. backing up Airbus all the way..
 
dalecary
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RE: Ansett To Go All Airbus...

Thu Jul 19, 2001 7:44 am

I know for a fact the 777 is still a big chance at AN/NZ. I wouldn't discount the article and AN are likely to go all Airbus for the narrow bodies but i wouldn't rule out more 763s,777-200ERs and 744s for the supposed rapid expansion of AN International.
 
dalecary
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RE: Ansett To Go All Airbus...

Thu Jul 19, 2001 8:01 am

don't forget that although Geoff Thomas is a well respected aviation journalist, he can get it wrong also.
I still have an article written by him from May 2000 saying QF had agreed to buy 12 777-200ER/LR with 18 options. How wrong that turned out to be.
The AN situation has too many variables at the moment to accurately forecast their future fleet requirements.
I gather the A332 the article mentions would be the ones that SALE will be leasing.
It certainly could happen, but I don't know if it will happen.

Dale.
 
aussie_
Posts: 1600
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RE: Ansett To Go All Airbus...

Thu Jul 19, 2001 8:04 am

I can't wait to see some A319s and A321s in Ansett colours. The A330s I suppose would be used on MEL-SYD-BNE and possibly thinner international routes.

Would they consider A340s for longhaul (cockpit commonality) or stick with the 744???
 
tullamarine
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RE: Ansett To Go All Airbus...

Thu Jul 19, 2001 8:31 am

As part of the sales of the 762s to GECAS, AN has agreed to lease a number of 763s as well as the 3 763s they are leasing from AC. What are the terms of these leases? It would seem to me that with about a total of 13 763s being leased, A332s don't make much sense in the short term unless the 763s can be returned early or the A332s are for int'l expansion.
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B727-200
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RE: Ansett To Go All Airbus...

Thu Jul 19, 2001 8:40 am


The first thing that has to happen is AN need to sell their B767-200's. As an interum step they are supposed to be selling these to GECAS and leasing them back short term until a replacement is chosen. I think Ansett currently owns 5 of its 9 B767-200's.

For A330's, it is still felt that these aircraft may be a bit too heavy for short-haul domestic sectors also. They are not designed to operate up to 7 x 1hr 20min sectors, which is why Airbus were toying with an A330-100 version designed for this very purpose.

If AN were to get these aircraft, however, then I imagine they will do the same work the current domestic B767's do. This is MEL-SYD, SYD-BNE, SYD-PER, MEL-PER domestically, and MEL-DPS, SYD-DPS and SYD-NAN internationally.

B727-200.
 
The Coachman
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RE: Ansett To Go All Airbus...

Thu Jul 19, 2001 9:12 am

Personally, I think there is room for B767-300ER's in the fleet, at least in the short term. The 763's can fly the domestic routes and occasional international (NAN, DPS etc.). They would have about 230-240 seats. Mind you, the B767-300ER's are LEASED from AC, not bought. Sure, it might be capitally less intensive in the short-term, but if they were a part of a long-term fleet for AN, then they might have considered buying some.

The A330-200 would fill a niche of about 270 pax (since they would be operated in a 2 class config. If these birds were internationally configured, Asian expansion is likely. However, if the A330-200's came along, the B767-300ER will have to go unless AN can demonstrate that they can economically run two types in that range of the market.

Their current fleet of A320-200's is well-loved by the general public (at least the best-loved of a supposedly bad bunch) and is the last aircraft pictured on one of the 'Absolutely' ads. They're of about the same age as the B737-300's they currently have. I therefore think that it's impossible to tell which they're going to ditch. NZ still have B737-300's which may be the decider. It would be better economics to run NZ and AN B737's as a single unit I think. AN can buy some B737-700's or B737-800's as replacements.

The general public perception, who, let's face it, are the revenue generators for AN will, however, not see this and perceive the B737's as old, aging aircraft (even if AN bought 73G's or 738's). If they buy the A319, a type that isn't commonly seen (if at all) in Australia, then the public would PERCEIVE that AN had a newer fleet which would help immensely.

There's no point buying the A321, though the costs would not be much more. It would probably seat 165 or so and the size premium over the A320 (144) is not much and turnaround times at airports like SYD would be longer and may lead to slot problems.

I hope I'm not starting an A vs B war because I'm only pointing out perceptions of a very ignorant general public, of which I hope not to be a part of.

I could probably have written more, so if there's anything that should be added, please suggest, because time is limited at the moment.

Regards,

The Coachman
M88, 722, 732, 733, 734, 73G, 73H, 742, 743, 744, 752, 762, 763, 772, 773, 77W, 320, 332, 333, 345, 388, DH8, SF3 - want
 
dalecary
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RE: Ansett To Go All Airbus...

Thu Jul 19, 2001 9:22 am

Tullamarine,

the first batch of QF A330s(7 332s and 6 333s) will be almost solely flown domestically. This is no secret. Therefore, I think AN could do the same thing as 763s will not match A330s capacity wise on domestic sectors(250 v 300+ pax).
So it definitely could happen but I am not sure it will happen.

Dale.
 
United Airline
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RE: Ansett To Go All Airbus...

Thu Jul 19, 2001 10:34 am

What about their B 747-400s from SIA? Are they going to keep them?
 
United Airline
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RE: Ansett To Go All Airbus...

Thu Jul 19, 2001 11:19 am

The B 763ERs will probably stay, They can fly both International as well as domestic routes.
 
travel
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RE: Ansett To Go All Airbus...

Thu Jul 19, 2001 1:25 pm

If the NZ government approve SQ's higher stake in NZ,
I believe that both NZ and AN will steer towards boeing aircraft.

At the end of the day whatever AN and NZ choose whether a new fleet of Boeings or Airbuses, it will all be worth it in the end. It will certainly give them a boost in passengers and profit in the long run.
 
Ruscoe
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RE: Ansett To Go All Airbus...

Thu Jul 19, 2001 1:44 pm

I would be surprised if the public cares much whether it is A320 or B733. Qantas don't currently fly A320 and the public have clearly shown a preference for Qantas.

Also, I fly a lot on both Qantas and Ansett domestic, and I have tried to be objective. I really can't say I prefer the A320 or 737. Second thing is, Ansetts 767's are rarely full on the flights I mostly take, to and from Brisbane, so why would they need the capacity.

Give me frequency every time.

Ruscoe
 
Skystar
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RE: Ansett To Go All Airbus...

Thu Jul 19, 2001 1:46 pm

The Coachman,

I wouldn't dismiss the A321, as Ansett has been very impressed with its economics in the past, and would have the best seat costs in the domestic fleet. Ansett did have some A321s on order, however it converted them to A320s. I was told by the A320 Fleet Manager that an A321 in Ansett configuration would have a capacity of 170+ pax (can't remember the exact number). Currently a significant gap exists between the 144 seats of the A320 and the 211 of the B762. In regards to its turnaround time, the 40mins on MEL-SYD routes is definately ample, and they've coped in Europe with such aircraft for a while.

Unfortunately, Airbus has no real solution for Ansett, as it has no real product in the 200-250 seat market. The A330-200 is not an optimal fit, but it'll have to do - AN does not need a 230ton MTOW for domestic ops. It also does present operational inflexibilities at SYD, with its long wingspan unable to be accomodated at all gates.

The B777 is simply far too big for domestic operations, especially at our frequencies (ie MEL-SYD 30mins all day). Without a doubt, the most flexible aircraft currently is the B767-300, and it's the right size.

Remember, NZ's 733s are a temporary filler, they have acknowledged that this is not a long term fleet solution. At one time, they were even quite keen to get their hands on the Ansett A320s.

Cheers,

Justin
 
Air Taiwan
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RE: Ansett To Go All Airbus...

Thu Jul 19, 2001 1:49 pm

It makes sense that they go all airbus...

they're happy with the A320 performance and since the 737s were being fitted narrower seats I don't think ppl like them anymore.

And personally I think the A340 fits them much better than the 744s, though I must admit I absolutly love their 744s!

Jimmy

PS But what we really care about now is whether SQ gets half of NZ or 100% of AN!!!
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: Ansett To Go All Airbus...

Thu Jul 19, 2001 3:52 pm

Good old bullies SIA! Good for AN! Seee! Now just let this continue Heleny.
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
johnnybgoode
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RE: Ansett To Go All Airbus...

Thu Jul 19, 2001 5:46 pm

in some ways i agree with The Coachman.
i really think that one of the major points which plays an important role in AN´s future fleet will be to give the impression to introduce a very modern fleet with state-of-the-art aircraft. i certainly don´t want to trigger any offence on airbus or boeing sides, but Coachman is right when he suggests that planes which haven´t been seen in australia widely or which 15 year-old concept (the a320s) in comparions with the 737NGs, which are based on a 35 year old concept deliver a more modern image. myself, i really consider both the a320s and the newer 737s to be state-of-the-art, but people who don´t fly frequently might not make this difference.
and the reason why people prefer QF so much, i think, is primarily the fact that QF hasn´t had such problems in the last years and offers a vaster network...

and about the 767s and 330s. i really could see AN switching to the a330s, on the one hand because so many voices suggest that the 777s are too big, and i think one could say that it´s highly unlikely that AN will build a new fleet of new 767s. in my opinion, in the longer term AN must face out its 767s to eliminate the image it triggered with the grounding of its entire 767 fleet this spring.
in addition, the a330s offer a wider cabin which qantas, having a330s on order, could easily use to market themselves whereas AN would still stick to its 767s, so that´s certainly no win-situation for AN.
so, if they want to stay competitive in the wide-body market, imho AN must go for the a330s as well...
in addition, if AN would go for the a330s offered on lease by SALE, they could get them almost as early as QF gets its a330s, afaik.

however, Skystar pointed out some good points as well. the a330s are quite heavy for short-haul ops and only fit into to large parking positions, which could prove a major problem on slot restricted airports (and these are exactly the reasons why LH on the one hand isn´t fond of the a330-200 as replacments for its a300/310s either). so what about the 767-400? it´s only slightly wider than the 763s... but it´s still a 767...

we´ll just have to wait and see

best wishes
daniel
If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
 
Ruscoe
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RE: Ansett To Go All Airbus...

Thu Jul 19, 2001 6:32 pm

If you want something that looks state of the art, then 737ng with winglets looks the part.

However, imho, the public don't really care.

We care because we like airplanes and airlines, but we are only a very small minority.

Ruscoe
 
The Coachman
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RE: Ansett To Go All Airbus...

Thu Jul 19, 2001 7:05 pm

Skystar,

Your comments are welcomed. I realise that the gap between the A320 and the B767-200 in terms of capacity is quite large and that an A321 would be a good filler (170 or so as you say, and say correctly). I was basing my turn-around info on some info from another thread and they pointed out some problems, but as I've just realised, with the 2nd door before the wing, a little congestion can be saved by biz class pax turning left and plebs turning right on entering the aircraft, which would help quite a lot.

I agree, the A330-200 is too big for Australian domestic ops. It's wingspan is too large, and it's weight is a problem with slot determination (I think that's what another forum said). But, basically it's too large. It begs the question of if it's too big, then why did QF order it? A purely international bird? What will QF use their 332 and 333 fleet for?

One possible solution, as mentioned, by johnnybgoode is the B767-400ER. It's a B767, yes, but that's good in some ways because AN has pilots who are already on 767's. The 764ER has a MTOW of 204T, which is more manageable than the stated 230T of the 332. The public will get a blabber if they get them of "the newest 767's in the world" which can't be bad for the public perception.

Ruscoe, I know the public don't care generally, but they will care when they book the ticket. It's like things that don't happen to us often. I know that when I go to the footy (rarely), I choose where I sit quite carefully, or a concert etc. When the non-enthusiasts buy a ticket, they will want to know.

Regards,

The Coachman

M88, 722, 732, 733, 734, 73G, 73H, 742, 743, 744, 752, 762, 763, 772, 773, 77W, 320, 332, 333, 345, 388, DH8, SF3 - want
 
jet_guy
Posts: 221
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2000 12:50 pm

RE: Ansett To Go All Airbus...

Thu Jul 19, 2001 8:26 pm

I persoanlly dont think we will see any more airbus a/c in AN colours apart from the A320 which they have currently. Anyway these 320 are getting old, and i heard (could be wrong) thay they will start to phased out in the next 5-10 years. NZ i think wouldnt go near airbus with a 100 foot stick, and look at SQ they cant get rid of their 340 quick enough, even to the rival manufacturer. I dont know much about their 310s though.

The 737-900 would fill the role of the 320 quite nicely, it has the range, capacity, and small enough to be used on shorter routes with quick turnaround times e.g. SYD-MEL

Airlines down in this region have a trend of not 'rocking the boat' to much when it comes to a/c orders. The only order that i can remember (and im sure this 1 or 2 more) was QF order for the A380, which also bought the A330 at a bargin.

I am not anti-airbus they provide many good products, but I just believe it will be a long time yet before we see them in the skies down here which in some ways is a pity.

Sam
 
Guest

RE: Ansett To Go All Airbus...

Thu Jul 19, 2001 8:42 pm

What about the SIA A310s would they be any good for AN ?

I have heard that they want to get rid of them somewhere.
 
jet_guy
Posts: 221
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RE: Ansett To Go All Airbus...

Thu Jul 19, 2001 8:50 pm

According to the SQ website they have 13 310 in ops.
But they must be getting on in age, but there would be no doubt about there condition because of the maintenace by SQ!
 
dalecary
Posts: 834
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2000 10:28 am

RE: Ansett To Go All Airbus...

Fri Jul 20, 2001 7:37 am

to The Coachman,

I have stated as have QF, that the first 13 A330s,comprising 7*332 and 6* 333 will predominantly be used on the Australian domestic scene. Obviously QF have many options for the A330s, although this fiqure is unknown, it is believed the QF A330 fleet could eventually total 35-40.
The first batch of domestic A330s will be operated at a paper reduced MTOW around 200t and will have structural strengthening to allow their short haul use.
QF will have no problems operating them at SYD,MEL or BNE. The gates are available now. Off the top of my head MEL has at least 7 gates capable of holding A330s.
AN will have big problems,however as their terminal developments lag far behind QF's. Much work will be needed at all airports before the A330 can be accommodated at a meaningful number of gates.
AN's problems are not just related to it's fleet: the whole infrastructure needs a big and expensive facelift. It is quite embarrassing comparing the AN and QF terminals at MEL now. To me the QF MEL terminal looks like it could handle roughly twice the pax of the AN terminal.
BNE is not such a big problem, but I understand AN lags far behind in SYD as well.
Don't think we will see the A330s in AN colours next year. Maybe down the track but not in the next 12 months. Pretty hard to get an A332 production slot at the moment as well. They are one mighty popular and powerful plane. From what I know, SALE are only looking at ordering A330s and as yet no official order has come in. So how would AN get them next year? They won't.
The 763 is the short term solution for AN. Cheap to operate and don't require the infrastructure changes that the A330 will incur.
 
tullamarine
Posts: 1612
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 1999 1:14 pm

RE: Ansett To Go All Airbus...

Fri Jul 20, 2001 8:03 am

Dale

Whilst I agree that AN's terminal in MEL is in serious need of a facelift, your comment about their SYD terminal suggests you haven't been there for quite a while. As a frequent user of both the AN and QF domestic terminals in SYD, I'd have to say they are both excellent following their Olympic inspired rebuilds. AN has a slight advantage due to its location which offers them terrific views (The Golden Wing has a panoramic view from Botany Bay to the Blue Mountains) as well as slightly quicker taxi times.

The A332's wingspan is an issue for both QF and AN. I think it can be accommodated at 3 stands at QF (SYD) and 2 at AN (SYD) as currently configured. In MEL I am unsure how the new QF concourse has assisted them but would assume that on the old concourse only the distant gates (used occassionally by domestic 747s) could handle the wingspan. AN in MEL would probably be limited to 2 gates as well (A4 and B12).
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aussie_
Posts: 1600
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2000 10:39 am

RE: Ansett To Go All Airbus...

Fri Jul 20, 2001 8:22 am

A little off topic, but speaking of terminals: if MEL is embarassing, who has seen ADL??? With QF and AN lumped together in one large departure hall with no airbridges at all, it must be the worst airport in Australia. Indeed of all the capital city airports, only Hobart comes close, an airport which now only gets regional jets from MEL and SYD.

And if Qantas and Virgin weren't squabbling about charges at the to-be-built new integrated terminal in ADL maybe we could have something to cheer about.

Re: Ansett's fleet, I think things will be much clearer when we know who owns who. If QF get NZ, NZ will possibly stay boeing but if NZ/AN somehow stay together, the current commonality in the Boeing fleets is an advantage which would be silly to pass up on.
 
dalecary
Posts: 834
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2000 10:28 am

RE: Ansett To Go All Airbus...

Fri Jul 20, 2001 8:39 am

Tullamarine,

I haven't been to SYD domestic for a while but I know the A330 wingspan problem has been thought about by QF and adjustments are minor compared to what AN would have to do at SYD to make more gates A330 compatible. I know the AN terminal at SYD is a good facility. My comments are related to what has to be done at the respective terminals to fit the A330s in. At MEL I think at least 3 of the 4 new airbridges are/will be 330 compatible. 1 at least is 747 compatible. Without knowing factually, I would guess that the MEL QF terminal would indeed have 6-7 330 compatible gates. From what I know the situation at SYD is/will be similar.
 
B727-200
Posts: 1008
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 1999 11:28 am

RE: Ansett To Go All Airbus...

Fri Jul 20, 2001 10:00 am

I am sure with the right gate management, AN could find enough space for A330's in both SYD and MEL.

For SYD, I am sure odd-numbered gates 11-19 (on the Western side of the old concourse "B") can handle the wing span. This gives at least 5 spots.

In MEL there are gates 1, 4, 6, 11, 12 and 13 that should be able to handle them. The only thing is you would probably have to have gate 3 empty if using gate 1, gate 2 empty if using gate 4, gate 8 empty if using gate 6, and you could use either 11 or 13 but not both at the same time  Nuts. This means you could at best only have 4 in MEL at the one time.

B727-200.
 
tullamarine
Posts: 1612
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 1999 1:14 pm

RE: Ansett To Go All Airbus...

Fri Jul 20, 2001 10:32 am

B727-200,

The SYD gates you mentioned in the old concourse are 31-39. Of these I think only 39 is a definite A330 capable gate and 35 a maybe (there is no gate 37). In the new concourse gate 11 is a definite and I suppose other gates on this side of the new concourse could be modified.

The fact that AN have limited A330 capabilities in SYD/MEL at the moment is hardly a concern for AN mgmt at the moment given A330s are only a rumor at this stage. Obviously they and SQ would be aware of this potential limitation and would take it into account when evaluating the type.

It is well known that Rod Eddington was attracted to the A330 for int'l ops and limited domestic ops. His plan that was put to the board but due to ownership muddles went nowhere was for a few A330s and the rest of the current 762 capacity taken up by A321s which offered terrific economics and unlike the 762/A330 were designed for the high cycle routes that AN intended to use them on. Where this plan is these days is anyone's guess??
717,721/2,732/3/4/5/7/8/9,742/3/4,752/3,762/3,772,W,310,320/1,332/3,388,DC9,DC10,F28,F100,142,143,E90,CR2,D82/3/4,SF3,AT
 
aussie_
Posts: 1600
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2000 10:39 am

Why Do We Never Discuss The 757?

Fri Jul 20, 2001 11:17 am

We talk about A321s - but if Boeing ends up with the order, why has the 757 (-200 probably rather than -300) never been brought up??

The aircraft offers great economics, proven track record on shorthaul with quick turnarounds (USA and British Airways) and have that extra capacity to partially replace the 762s.
 
The Coachman
Posts: 1192
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2001 9:57 pm

RE: Ansett To Go All Airbus...

Fri Jul 20, 2001 1:07 pm

Dale,

What's being sacrificed? Is 8-9 hours worth of fuel 30 tonnes? If it isn't, would cargo be sacrificed?

I have to agree, I believe the B767-300ER offers the most flexible and probably cost-effective solution. Integration costs are quite low. If they must get extra capacity to fight off the QF 332's, then the B767-400ER with a MTOW of 204t would be ideal. I hope I don't seem too obsessed with the idea of the 764 but it seems logical.

In the 100-150 seater category, anything could go. AN could either go all Airbus or all Boeing. NZ has to be factored into calculations though the A321 gives great economics as pointed out already.

Aussie,

The probable reasons why the B757 hasn't been considered are many. When AN placed its orders for 5 762's back in the late 70's/early 80's, the 757 was also on the cards. It would probably have a capacity of 180-185 in AN's configuration. I don't think that the aircraft seems to 'fit' somehow in Australia. It's neither here nor there, it's not medium (150 or so), yet it's not large (200+). It also suffers a little from range problems since international destinations from SYD that could be covered by the B757-200 are more limited than the 763. Also, the 757 because of its slender fuselage dimensions carries less cargo and hence making international ops not as potentially profitable as 767 ops. Someone can correct my analysis if I'm wrong.

I'd like to point out that errors in logic and differences in opinion have been put forward here in a highly civil manner and there has been no bad language etc. It's been a good discussion and I look forward to more replies. Thank you for your manners everyone!

The Coachman
M88, 722, 732, 733, 734, 73G, 73H, 742, 743, 744, 752, 762, 763, 772, 773, 77W, 320, 332, 333, 345, 388, DH8, SF3 - want
 
B727-200
Posts: 1008
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 1999 11:28 am

RE: Ansett To Go All Airbus...

Fri Jul 20, 2001 1:29 pm


Tullamarine,

It was the newer of the two concourses or the old concourse "B" as it was formerly named I was referring to. Basically before AN renumbered all gates sequentially 1-40 and dropped the Concourse A and Concourse B names.

I agree with you that the original concourse can probably only support this type at the end gate. I also agree that it will be a lot of water going under the bridge before AN would get them.

I would prefer to split the 9 x AN B762's into 6 x B763's and 5 x A321's. Then convert the 24 B733's into 10 more A321's and 15 x A319's and AN would have a half-decent fleet.

B727-200
 
jupiter2
Posts: 949
Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2001 11:30 am

RE: Ansett To Go All Airbus...

Fri Jul 20, 2001 1:59 pm

I'll go into bat for the 757, it is an extremely capable aircraft, it has at least as much range as the 762's AN have now which would allow them to do the Bali and Nadi flights which are currently done by them and the 320's. It fits into the gap between the 320 and the 767, has flight deck commonality with the 767's, has good seat mile costs and despite being a narrowbody is capable in the freight department, at least it does not loose anything compared to the 321.
Having said that, I think that their best option would be a mix of 737-700/800 and 900's, as well as 763's and 764's, only 2 basic types then would cover the entire domestic fleet as well the new 737's would be suitable for the Bali and Nadi flights as well.
I'm sure that others would say the 320 series would fit the same as the 737's but then there is a large gap capacity wise to the 330's if they were ordered, unless the gap was filled by 767's. This would obviously be less cost affective as it retains 3 airframe types as opposed to 2 with the Boeing scenario.
Still this is all academic until they work out who is going to own them and how much money they are prepared to spend.
RL
 
dalecary
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RE: Ansett To Go All Airbus...

Fri Jul 20, 2001 2:20 pm

The Coachman,

Paper reduced MTOW means QF buys the weight they want to operate the planes at. At 201t the A330s will be cheaper to buy/operate than at 233t. If they wish to make these planes operate at a heavier weight, then they will have to pay the manufacturer for it.
I think you are right- the weight reduction will come from fuel and cargo combined. Certainly don't need to fill up the tanks for a MEL-SYD run on a 332. The lighter they are the better they will be for the short sectors. I think one of the reasons why QF chose the 330 over the 777 was that they were always going to order the A380 and they wanted another airbus type in the fleet to get their pilots familiar with Airbus idiosyncracies such as FBW. The business case was made that the 330 could profitably operate on the domestic sectors and they were ordered in a reportedly excellent financial deal for the airline.
I,personally wonder why they didn't order A32X as their pre-A380 Airbus type and then order the 777 as their 747 classic replacement. Still seems the best solution to me. I gather QF weren't ready to order the 733/4 last year however and we will have to wait for next year to see what that will be. My bet is on the 737NG.

Dale.
 
manuel
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RE: Ansett To Go All Airbus...

Fri Jul 20, 2001 2:46 pm

No one has mentioned the commonality of the A330 to the A340. As much as I can remember Ansett plans to expand their international network (which sure presents a vital step in order to stay competitive with QF). But the 744 is too big for new thinner long-range legs. I heard Ansett was therefore considering getting some of SQs A340s. In my eyes they would fit perfectly into Ansett operations, no ETOPS restrictions for example for flights over the Pacific. And then we have commonality and another reason why it could make sense to introduce the A330.
Just a thought....
 
aduum
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RE: Ansett To Go All Airbus...

Fri Jul 20, 2001 7:30 pm


So do you all think that the major factor here is weather they go for the A340 for international ops or more 747s for international service, to decide weather they go for the A330 or the 767?

As their narrowbody fleet has nothing really to do with this decision on the widebody as they are already in a mixed fleet, and their 767s need replacing. SO this decision on the 767/330 depends on what suits them all round...

In other words they are choosing from the top down, say A340, A330, A321 + A320, or they go 747, 767, 737.

Is that their choices or can they be mixed up a bit?
 
The Coachman
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RE: Ansett To Go All Airbus...

Fri Jul 20, 2001 8:33 pm

I think they can mix it up, eg 744, 763/764, 319/320/321.

Dale,

But if QF buys the strengthening needed, for the domestic market, that will increase weight. It also gives them less flexibility when it comes to international routes. The empty weight of the 332 will be heavier than normal because of the structural strengthening. 30t cut off the normal 332 is about 13%. I thought that the TOW of an aircraft is variable due to load etc. I thought that the 332 came with a MTOW of 230t UNCHANGEABLE. It would be a totally different aircraft if the 332 came with a MTOW of 201t. What you're saying is that QF has ordered a 332 with a MTOW of 201t (??) How could that be? I somehow believe that your info is flawed. Perhaps Skystar could enlighten us.

I believe that the issue being discussed here is whether the 330 or 767 family should be chosen.

The Coachman
M88, 722, 732, 733, 734, 73G, 73H, 742, 743, 744, 752, 762, 763, 772, 773, 77W, 320, 332, 333, 345, 388, DH8, SF3 - want
 
Oz777
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RE: Ansett To Go All Airbus...

Fri Jul 20, 2001 11:23 pm

Interesting that the B757 issue has been raised. While we are discussing pilot cross qualification on the Airbus fleet, one thing that must be factored is the pilot rostering.

One of the initial problems with the QF integration with TN many years ago was "domestic" pilots v "longhaul" pilots.

Many of the B767 QF guys were not all that fussed at 5 sectors a day and back home for dinner, and the TN guys did not want the international sectors. Cockpit commonality works fine when all that is being done is matching aircraft with required capacity (such as Europe), say going from a B737-300 to a -400, or A319 toa A321.

But bringing in a "domestic 319" driver to suddenly operate a 330 to SIN on a 5-day rotation calls for far more flexibility (and route knowlege) than is normally available.

Even the B767 ops that QF operate now still are separated to a certain extent between pure domestic and international, but QF have some flexibility in marginally adjusting capacity at short notice.

The discussion in this forum has been about 160 seats and 260 seats. The real step needs to be 125/160/200/240 and 275+

Boeing can look at the 737-600 and -900. Pure domestic ops with cross qualification (much the same as QF now do with their 737's.

A319's (expensive on a fleet mile basis compared to the 737) and 320's and 321's would suit, but in fact the 321's fall short of the 200 requirement which has some regional international requirement.

200/240/275 gives some domestic flexibility with international ops, and this becomes a 757-200/300 plus a 767-300/400 territory. Again regional international, but also puts Asia within reach (look at the number of Charter airlines who fly TransAtlantic with high density 757's) 767 and 757 can be cross qualified.

The real issue hits with a suitable aircraft for long distance international ops. I think the 747 is to big for AN to develop new destinations - really they want only 300 seats, which makes the A330/340 far more viable.

While it introduces a different airframe in the fleet, essentially its operations are quite separate. her are several options. Base the AN international fleet outside of Australia so that the maintenance is done in say LAX or SIN or HKG. Roster a limited number of domestic sectors in the pilots bid patterns to cover capacity requirements but really keep it separate.

I do not see the value in operating a 230 Tonne MTOW capable aircraft when 95% of your requirement can be doner by by a 200 tonne machine. Cuts down on fuel, landing charges, and if there is a capacity constraint then AN's yield can be marginally higher (no deep discount tickets to fill seats). This is in fact the startegy that Eddington is putting into BA right now.

I have to agree that the final ownership of AN/ANZ will determine the outcome.

ANZ desperately want the 777 and 763 for regional work. AN can use the 763 quite happily but do not have an aircraft with range and 300+seats (the 747 is too big). Given that ANZ still want the lions share of the International (and it appears AN International expansion is on hold), I think it will be the 767 with possibly the -400 an option. Boeing would like to put some in down here.

And I would love to see the 757-200 and -300 on domestic work - there are a few of them available 2nd hand just at the moment.

Oz777

 
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RayChuang
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RE: Ansett To Go All Airbus...

Fri Jul 20, 2001 11:36 pm

I wonder why Ansett has not considered the 747-400D that is used by Japan Airlines and All-Nippon Airways. However, instead of using the JL/NH 30" pitch configuration use a 33" seat pitch all-Economy configuration seating around 500 pax. Maybe the issue of the time need to turn around the plane mitigates against this idea.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

I think AN should seriously look at buying the 757-300. They could fit in 245-255 pax in a roomier all-Economy seating, and Boeing could offer a stronger-structure airframe designed for the high-cycle SYD-MEL route.
 
The Coachman
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RE: Ansett To Go All Airbus...

Sat Jul 21, 2001 12:00 pm

RayChuang,

I'm not even going to comment on the first paragraph.  Nuts

The AN doesn't want an all economy aircraft. It needs some sort of business class to act as an incentive to corporate flyers to fly with them instead of QF. And there are still some CEO's etc who pay full biz class fares betw SYD-MEL.

The Coachman
M88, 722, 732, 733, 734, 73G, 73H, 742, 743, 744, 752, 762, 763, 772, 773, 77W, 320, 332, 333, 345, 388, DH8, SF3 - want
 
Skystar
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RE: Ansett To Go All Airbus...

Sat Jul 21, 2001 2:29 pm

Well,

Ray, the simple fact is in order to have frequency, you can't fly that big an aircraft. Secondly very few gates at the domestic terminals can handle 747 size aircraft.

From what I've heard, the 757 suffers from poor cargo capacity. An A321 has a 5500km of range (93ton MTOW), which puts all the small intl. destinations such as DPS, NAN, AKL, CHC, etc. within reach of MEL.

I doubt we'd see CCQ with pilots swapping between A319s and A330s downunder - what would the union think?

The Coachman, yes, Qantas' A330-200s are being built to 233ton specifications, but they have a paper reduced MTOW to 202ton (just like you can often increase MTOW by paying Boeing to officially certify it. These MTOW adjustments have happened with the 717. I must say, I haven't come across too many of these with Airbus though). A 30 ton reduction of MTOW would still allow the aircraft to fly to basically all Asian destinations, and certainly would make sense, given that these aircraft are meant to operate domestic routes, where an extra 30ton of MTOW is useless.

It's strange, this topic is only being discussed on this particular aviation board.

Cheers,

Justin
 
BA FOREVER
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RE: Ansett To Go All Airbus...

Sat Jul 21, 2001 4:47 pm

I'd love to see an Airbus A380 in Ansett Colours ! ! !
 
jet_guy
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RE: Ansett To Go All Airbus...

Sat Jul 21, 2001 7:01 pm

but i dont think you will BA FOREVER.....just like you wont see NZ give up AN without a fight!
 
aduum
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RE: Ansett To Go All Airbus...

Sun Jul 22, 2001 1:09 pm

You never know BA FOREVER and Jet_guy, what if SIA offloads it's A340's to Ansett, then Singapore has some problem or dislike with their A380's and so lease them to AN to compete with Qantas.

You never know it could happen.
 
The Coachman
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RE: Ansett To Go All Airbus...

Sun Jul 22, 2001 4:54 pm

In that case, the Air NZ parent would snap them up and put em to use on the US routes. Unless SQ gains a direct equity access into AN. But that topic's been done ad nauseam.

Just a question. Would the B767-400ER's wings be "short" enough to handle the domestic gates satisfactorily (as opposed to A330-200's 'unsatisfactory' solution)?

Regards,

The Coachman
M88, 722, 732, 733, 734, 73G, 73H, 742, 743, 744, 752, 762, 763, 772, 773, 77W, 320, 332, 333, 345, 388, DH8, SF3 - want
 
Celticmanx
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RE: Ansett To Go All Airbus...

Sun Jul 22, 2001 5:37 pm

If Ansett want to replace the 767 fleet, they will but in long-term.
Meanwhile they are operating the 762 and the 763 for the high density domestic routes and they will received an additional 763ER from Belgium's carrier CityBird after ceased operations.
A good option would be the A330 rather than B777.
The A330 is more suitable for short routes and also makes profitable cost compared with the B777, which is preferable on long haul flights.
An easy example of this, is the QF decision to replace their 767 for A330.
If Ansett want to remain on the market competition, they will make it even with QF: go for the A330.
Personally, the Australian domestic market is kind of complicate and there is not a specific aircraft made to satisfy operators on it.
 
jupiter2
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RE: Ansett To Go All Airbus...

Sun Jul 22, 2001 9:43 pm

Celticmanx, the only 767's QF are replacing with the 332's are the 762's, QF have no intention of getting rid of their 763's for a long time. If you look at the order they made, the 332's replace the 762's one for one, the 333's replace the 742's and 747SP's six to seven although one of the 742's is leased to FJ, so operationally it is one to one and the 744LR's replace the 743's one to one. The only increase in capacity comes from the discount seat queen the 380's.
I still believe AN will go for 763's and 764's, they can't get the give away deal QF got when they ordered the 380's, for a 330 order, that is unless of course NZ/AN decide they will also get the 380 !!
As I side note, unless FJ lease a 747 off another company, we will be seeing an FJ 744 sometime in the near future.
RL
 
aduum
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RE: Ansett To Go All Airbus...

Sun Jul 22, 2001 10:06 pm

Another question...

Why doesn't Ansett think about leasing all these aircraft instead of buying them for $5billion? At least until they have the money to buy them?

Or is this completely too expensive?
 
User avatar
RayChuang
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RE: Ansett To Go All Airbus...

Sun Jul 22, 2001 10:17 pm

Actually, there's a potential new issue in regards to flying between Sydney and Melbourne--the possibility of a high-speed rail link between the two cities.

I've read about the idea of using 300 km/h high-speed trainsets that could traverse from Sydney to Melbourne under three hours non-stop; if they ever perfect maglev technology we maybe talking about downtown Sydney to downtown Melbourne in about 75 minutes. Imagine maglev trains carrying 400 passengers with 15 minute headways for each train on this route--it would carry more passenger per day than all the current QF/AN flights by several multiples.