deltaownsall
Posts: 1091
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2001 3:25 pm

How Big Was Pan AM?

Mon Jul 23, 2001 2:29 am

How big was Pan AM as compared to the modern day major airlines like Delta, American, and United? How many planes did they have in their fleet? If they weren't the major U.S. domestic carrier when they were around who was in the 80s? Thanks for any info  Smile
DeltaOwnsAll
 
Notar520AC
Posts: 1517
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2001 6:53 am

Pretty Big For Their Time...

Mon Jul 23, 2001 2:36 am

As of the year 1991 they had 688 aircraft in their fleet, all given "clipper" names.

-Notar520AC
BMW - The Ultimate Driving Machine
 
skyhawk
Posts: 1011
Joined: Sat May 19, 2001 12:23 pm

RE: Pretty Big For Their Time...

Mon Jul 23, 2001 2:52 am

A lot depends on what you mean by "big"? Do you mean strictly the amount of aircraft they had? That has been answered. But do you mean big as in relation to their importance to the aviation industry as a whole? Most everybody knows that they set many firsts throughout their life, around the world speed flight, first commercial 747, etc. Big company, known around the world to many third world countries as the USA.
 
johnnybgoode
Posts: 2144
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: How Big Was Pan AM?

Mon Jul 23, 2001 5:49 am

688 aircraft??????
could anyone share some info on their domestic network? i mean, i know they had no big coverage but there certainly were some major domestic routes...

i certainly believe the figure of 688 aircraft but where did they place all of them? some in berlin, i know...

rgds
daniel
If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
 
bobnwa
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RE: Pretty Big For Their Time...

Mon Jul 23, 2001 6:52 am

I have a hard time with 688 aircraft in the Pan Am fleet in 1991. Do you have a breakdown of the type? Pan Am did have the shuttle at that time, but the rest of their domestic network was fairly thin.
 
777gk
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RE: How Big Was Pan AM?

Mon Jul 23, 2001 7:10 am

Pan Am's domestic network was simply set up to feed its international services. It gained a lot more territory in the 1979 acquisition of National Airlines, but it never became the large domestic player that Eastern, Delta, or United was at the time. Of course, Pan Am was the undisputed leader of international service, with TWA following somewhat close behind.
 
VirginA340
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RE: How Big Was Pan AM?

Mon Jul 23, 2001 8:05 am

PA had tried to merge with TWA in the 1970s to get domestic routes among other international routes but the CAB put an end to that. Currently UAL and AA are much larger that PA at it's peak. Before the AA/TW merger UA was cosidered by some as Earth's largest airline.
"FUIMUS"
 
FTraveler
Posts: 71
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RE: How Big Was Pan AM?

Mon Jul 23, 2001 8:25 am

Pan Am's domestic presence was miniscule compared to its extensive international network which included major cities in North America, Asia, Africa, South America and Europe. Pan Am also owned Inter-Continental hotels. I would venture to say that at its peak, Pan Am actually flew to more international destinations than any other carrier in commercial aviation history.
 
deltaflyertoo
Posts: 1479
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2000 3:18 pm

RE: How Big Was Pan AM?

Mon Jul 23, 2001 10:22 am

688 a/c for Pan Am is wrong.

While I have no exact figures, common logic dictates the fleet was no bigger than 200-250 a/c. As of 91 they were in serious, serious trouble and were selling assets left and right. They only narrowbodies they had were 727s and 737s. There definetly was not a combination of 688 Airbuses, 747s and 727/737s.

Also keep in mind they did not have any domestic hubs but focus cities, the biggest of which was JFK in 91.

To answer the original question, the major players in the 80s were Eastern, United, Delta, American and to a lesser extent Continental, Western, TWA and Pan AM. The 80s were a crazy time and deregulation was the begining of the end for Pan Am. Unfortunately they just didn't move as fast as all the others in making strategic decisions for routes, fleet and image.
 
United Airline
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RE: How Big Was Pan AM?

Mon Jul 23, 2001 10:25 am

Panam was about the same size as today's Delta, or a bit smaller even.
 
deltaflyertoo
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RE: How Big Was Pan AM?

Mon Jul 23, 2001 10:30 am

I don't think Pan Am was that big. Their route network was nowhere near what DL's is today. They had a big operation at JFK and spotty service everywhere else in the US. In order to be near the size of DL they would have been operating at least 3 major hubs, coast to coast.

Also remember, Pan Am sold the Pacific routes to UAL in 85, this considerably shrunk the airline.
 
VirginA340
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RE: How Big Was Pan AM?

Mon Jul 23, 2001 10:50 am

Don't forget about PA's other gateway to South america and Carribean...MIA. Remeber that PA had a huge hub but they were based out of MIA. JFK served as a second home. Then it was their euro hub FRA. The JFK and their Euro hub of FRA all went to DL which explains their large presence at the two airports.
"FUIMUS"
 
Tan Flyr
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RE: How Big Was Pan AM?

Mon Jul 23, 2001 11:35 am

Sorry Guys, I don't think Pan Am even had more than 100-120 aircraft in the mid-80's.
I used to have a website that gave a lot of history, though it was in German.

To the best of my memory, in the mid-80's(before the Pacific div went to UA) the fleet would have been somthing on ther order of:
35-42 747's inc the SP"s
12-14 L-1011-500's
25-30 727's
10-15 A-310s?
and I think there were a few 737's leased from someone.
thats it.Remember the domestic side was only feed to JFK & MIA. many flights stopped at 2 cities before JFK..ie: IND-CLE-JFK

I'll do some more looking when I have time.
 
IMissPiedmont
Posts: 6200
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RE: How Big Was Pan AM?

Mon Jul 23, 2001 11:43 am

Pan Am never had 688 aircraft in the fleet at one time. 250-300 is most likely. If necessary I can provide exact figures for any date from the 60s until the demise.
As for it's size. In terms of route network it was huge. Much more extensive than any other international carrier, with the exception of todays BA. True RPK could noy compare to UA,AA,DL,NW,WN etc of today, but we must remember that Pan Ams heyday was the sixties and seventies. Times have changed.

Steve
The day you stop learning is the day you should die.
 
acvitale
Posts: 1911
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 8:25 am

RE: How Big Was Pan AM?

Tue Jul 24, 2001 12:37 am

As a former Pan Am employee I can provide you with some stats.

Pan Am flew more people accross the Atlantic in the late 1980s then all other carriers combined.

Pan Am had ownership in over 190 other airlines during it's years including but not limited to Aviesca, Mexicana, LAB, TAP, Aerolineas Argentinas and many others

In 1991 Pan Am mainline had approx 129 aircraft, Pan Am Express had approx 34 aircraft prior to the Delta European route sale.

Pan Am was at it's peak in the 1960s and 1970s when it had service accross the globe. During that period Pan Am and it's subsidies had 712 aircraft ranging from twin otters to 747s.

Pan Am was the largest international carrier. Eastern was the largest domestic carrier. TWA was also large. It is amazing how far and how fast these carriers fell from grace.
 
notdownnlocked
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RE: How Big Was Pan AM?

Tue Jul 24, 2001 12:53 am

Don't forget that while PA flew all over the world the US government did not allow them to fly US domestic passenger carrying routes before deregulation. Just an example is the route they had in 1976 from HNL-DFW-JFK they couldn't carry PAX from DFW to JFK. Others for example are PDX-SEA, LAX-SFO(747 9flights a week), TPA-MIA, DTW-BOS and many others on the domestic routes. These examples are from only one timetable alone. Had PA been allowed to build a domestic system before all the other airlines were allowed to fly internationally on PA's routes I think PA would no doubt be here today as the original and not Pan Am Mark III the re-incarnate.
 
skyhawk
Posts: 1011
Joined: Sat May 19, 2001 12:23 pm

RE: How Big Was Pan AM?

Tue Jul 24, 2001 2:08 am

If I am not mistaken, when Notdownlocked said PAA wasn't allowed to carry pas from DFW-JFK as the continuation from HNL, I believe that only referred to persons getting on in DFW. The people from HNL could go all the way to JFK. As far as them(PAA) being able to still exist if they had been allowed to create a domestic system, I don't agree. I say that as a former FA for them. The powers in charge - Juan Trippe, William Sewell, Edward Acker - in their days raped the company completely. For example, on the 747 in the First Class section we always carried a fresh floral arrangement on each flight. Just a way to make that section look a little more like home. Anyway, William Sewell's wife received a reported $90,000 salary per year just to pick out the flowers we would use. Can you believe that? Just constant episodes like that one. One more, Edward Acker's wife - on a trip to Nice, France there was about 6 or 7 bottles of champagne left on the plane, she told the head purser(a friend of mine) that she wanted to take the rest of it with her to their house. He asked her to sign for it as we had to keep track of all liquor on the plane. She didn't want to do that. Talk about cheap! With her money she could buy the finest of French champagnes but she would rather take the companies property(and before someone says her husband owned PAA so she should be allowed to take what she wanted, Acker did not "own" PAA, he was simply an employee just like the rest of us. If any of the rest of us had taken champagne, we would have been fired on the spot.) By the way some of the champagne was Rose' and she drank it on ice! P.S. She didn't get to take the champagne.
 
airsicknessbag
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RE: How Big Was Pan AM?

Tue Jul 24, 2001 3:13 am


Major (i.e. more than 50 planes) North American airlines´ fleets as of spring 1991:
(If you want to go straight to Pan Am - they´re number 8.)

1st AA - 552
2 747SP
3 MD11
59 DC10
25 A300-600
15 767-300
30 767-200
35 757-200
153 757-200
220 MD82
10 MD83

2nd US - 478
9 767-200
45 727-200
31 MD81/82
74 DC9-31/32
52 737-400
103 737-300
80 737-200
18 BAe 146-200
22 F100
44 F28

3rd UA - 475
8 747-400
27 747-100/200
11 747SP
55 DC10
17 DC8-71
19 767-200
30 757-200
125 727-200
100 737-300
9 737-500
72 737-200

4th DL - 410
19 L1011-200
10 L1011-500
4 DC8-71
24 767-300
15 767-200
61 757-200
130 727-200
37 MD88
36 DC9-32
13 737-300
61 737-200

5th CO - 355
9 747-200
17 DC10
17 A300B4
112 727-200
65 MD81/82/83
35 DC9-32
7 DC9-14
55 737-300
38 737-100/200

6th NW - 344
10 747-400
32 747-200
20 DC10
33 757-200
12 A320-200
71 727-200
8 MD82
158 DC9-14/15/31/32/51

7th TW - 215
19 747-100/200
35 L1011
11 767-300
69 727-100/200
33 MD88
48 DC9-15/31/32/41

8th PA - 163
34 747-100/200
13 A300B4
23 A310-200/300
93 727-200

9th AC - 119
6 747-100/200
14 L1011
21 767-200
10 A320-200
33 727-200
35 DC9-32

10th WN - 104
48 737-300
10 737-500
46 737-200

11th HP - 103
4 747-200
10 757-200
6 A320-200
37 737-300
34 737-200
12 DHC8-100

12th CP - 97
2 747-400
11 DC10
8 310-300
12 767-300
4 320-200
60 737-200

13th MID - 71
5 MD83
4 MD82
6 MD87
37 DC9-30
9 DC9-15
10 737-200

14th AS - 66
30 727-200
29 MD82/83
7 737-200


The times, they are a´changing - and so are the fleets, aren´t they?

Hope this helps,

Daniel Smile
 
airsicknessbag
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RE: How Big Was Pan AM?

Tue Jul 24, 2001 3:46 am

Oh, and, by the way, PA destinations as of spring 91 included roughly 60 North American, 30 Caribbean/South/Central American, 30 European cities as well as Nairobi, Bombay and Delhi.

Daniel Smile
 
acvitale
Posts: 1911
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 8:25 am

RE: How Big Was Pan AM?

Tue Jul 24, 2001 9:47 am

While the fleet list in 1991 looks ok it is incorrect. It shows the 727-100s that Pan Am had but, was not flying. It also neglects to show the 6 then later 4 737-200s these were used on routes like MIA-ATL-JFK-ATL-MIA and SFO-LAX-SFO and MIA-MCO-IAD-MCO-MIA and others.

Al
 
Notar520AC
Posts: 1517
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OK,OK

Tue Jul 24, 2001 11:46 am

Ok, so maybe the site was wrong or something- it listed all of the aircraft Pan American Airlines had since they started, not saying they were all in service! Also, Pan Am loaned, sold, and did joint opperations with other major airlines with their aircraft suggesting the "difference" in our sources.

-Notar520AC
BMW - The Ultimate Driving Machine
 
Iflewrepublic
Posts: 511
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RE:?

Tue Jul 24, 2001 5:24 pm

The success of airlines such as Pan American World Airways, Eastern Airlines, and Braniff International was their ultimate undoing. They all grew too big too fast and were unable to find ways of fending off the death blows of deregulation.

One more thing, just thought I should point out that Northwest's combined fleet of leased and owned aircraft totaled somewhere in the neighborhood of 445 give or take...doesn't take much to have a fairly substantial sized fleet.

Iflewrepublic.
Aviation is proof that, given the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
 
acvitale
Posts: 1911
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RE: How Big Was Pan AM?

Tue Jul 24, 2001 5:27 pm

Kind of interesting to compare yesterdays beamouths of TWA, Pan Am, Braniff, and Eastern to todays United, Delta, Northwest and others and you can see the same bad choices repeated.

Bad management doesn't go away it just changes codes.
 
Iflewrepublic
Posts: 511
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2000 11:31 pm

RE: How Big Was Pan AM?

Tue Jul 24, 2001 5:29 pm

The only things bad management changes are the suits.

Iflewrepublic.
Aviation is proof that, given the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
 
timz
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RE: How Big Was Pan AM?

Wed Jul 25, 2001 8:44 am

Rankings for US airlines for some random years, based on revenue passenger miles carried in scheduled service:

1948 #1 AA, #2 UA, #3 PA #4 TW, #5 EA

1951 AA TW UA EA PA

1960 AA UA TW PA EA

1964 UA TW PA AA EA

1970 UA TW PA AA EA

1976 UA AA TW EA DL PA
 
Greg
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RE: How Big Was Pan AM?

Wed Jul 25, 2001 11:24 am

The memory of Pan Am has always been bigger than the actual carrier. PA is notable in it's accomplishments, not in its size
 
IMissPiedmont
Posts: 6200
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RE: How Big Was Pan AM?

Wed Jul 25, 2001 1:56 pm

AND!. Pa Am could carry passengers between two US points before deregualtion. As long as they were not US citizens. Just as any foreign carrier can today. It's known as conditional stopover traffic.
The day you stop learning is the day you should die.
 
acvitale
Posts: 1911
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 8:25 am

RE: How Big Was Pan AM?

Wed Jul 25, 2001 2:27 pm

Realize that the carrier Pan Am was but one aspect.

There was a division of Pan Am that ran flights to Alaska a division for Europe a division for South America and a division for Asia etc. Additionally, Pan Am had controlling and minority interest in many many other carriers. Panagra for example was a wholy owned subsidary that flew flights to and in Central America these were flights that were not included in the random totals listed above. Just a thought

Al
 
Guest

RE: How Big Was Pan AM?

Wed Jul 25, 2001 3:14 pm

Hey folks, business is a game of chance...one can hire teams of so-called "experts," but it is analysis and hypotheses...no guarantees! Just as life, it holds no guarantees whatsoever!
 
milemaster
Posts: 994
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RE: How Big Was Pan AM?

Wed Jul 25, 2001 5:50 pm

That information can't be right... None of AA's 727-200's listed either.
 
BO__einG
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RE: How Big Was Pan AM?

Wed Jul 25, 2001 6:33 pm

Pam Am was as big as my Bedroom.. Big grin
Follow @kimbo_snaps on Instagram or bokimon- on Flickr to see more pics of me and my travels.
 
acvitale
Posts: 1911
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 8:25 am

RE: How Big Was Pan AM?

Thu Jul 26, 2001 12:19 am

I miss piedmont..

You are wrong... Pan Am could NOT carry passengers within the US with very few notable exceptions (ie connecting to or from another Pan Am flight.)

Please do not post that crap when I can assure you the poster who posted the truth was correct.

It was a rare little known thing about the CAB... You were either a domestic carrier or an international carrier.

Pan Am had to work interchange agreements with other carriers to get domestic feed. (example: Pan Am plane and crew continued from IAD to LAX from a CDG flight but, It was technically a wet lease to Delta, operated technically by Delta and Delta controlled ther res)
 
456
Posts: 315
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2001 4:20 am

RE: How Big Was Pan AM?

Thu Jul 26, 2001 12:21 am

Another interesting question is, where would it be today when it would still alive...
 
trintocan
Posts: 2725
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2000 6:02 pm

RE: How Big Was Pan AM?

Thu Jul 26, 2001 12:40 am

What it would be like today? That is imponderable - but certainly it would not have the kind of monopoly which it had in the past as many other countries have their own global carriers eg SIA, MAS, Korean etc - but then, could they have been able to grow so much if PA were still there?

Just a thought.

Trintocan.
Hop to it, fly for life!
 
timz
Posts: 6083
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 1999 7:43 am

Need Clarification From Acvitale

Thu Jul 26, 2001 2:30 am

Imisspiedmont said that Pan Am could carry non-US citizens as conditional stopover traffic. Is there a difference between that and "connecting to or from another Pan Am flight"?

I guess you meant MSY instead of LAX, didn't you, when you mentioned the PA-DL interchange continuation of the LHR/CDG-to-IAD flight? If not, when did DL fly IAD-LAX?
 
456
Posts: 315
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2001 4:20 am

RE: How Big Was Pan AM?

Thu Jul 26, 2001 2:51 am

But as far as my knowledge reach for this photograph with its text, i may presume Pan Am is still flying??? And there for my question mentioned 2 post above this one, can be answered by today's facts?

Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Nigel O. Prince

 
N202PA
Posts: 1280
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2000 9:44 pm

RE: How Big Was Pan AM?

Thu Jul 26, 2001 3:32 am

The Pan Am that exists today bears no resemblance to the original Pan Am. It is an entirely separate company, with different management, and separated from the original airline by a full degree.

The current company is known among aviation enthusiasts as PA III, as it is the third company to have used the name. The second, based in Miami between 96 and 98, operated A300s to U.S. and Caribbean markets. Later, they bought out financially troubled Carnival Airlines, gaining a wide Caribbean route network and a fleet of A300s, 727s and 737s (200s & 400s). That, however, was one of the reasons for their undoing, as well as the reluctance of the travelling public to fly on discount carriers like Pan Am in the wake of ValuJet 592.

The name was picked up in that company's bankruptcy in 1998 by a New England transportation company and the headquarters of the new company was placed in Portsmouth, NH, where it remains today. The new airline flies hushkitted 727-200s to a variety of secondary airports. Given the rather rapid change in their route map, as well as the dramatically low load factors that have been reported on certain routes, it's obvious that they're still trying to find a formula that'll work for them. And given their somewhat dubious decision to start up a commuter division, one might wonder if they are going to keep flying much longer.

Honestly, while I used to be a big PA III supporter, the mistakes they've made in managing what could be a successful airline has soured me on the carrier. I still wish them well, and think that they could be successful at some point, but it's looking more and more doubtful. Hopefully, if they do go bankrupt, someone with some major cash will be able to pick up the name and logo and use it on a more appropriate airline (such as a transatlantic airline). That's just my opinion, though.

In any case, neither PA II nor PA III have anything to do with the original pioneer Pan Am, other than the name and logo.
 
acvitale
Posts: 1911
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 8:25 am

RE: How Big Was Pan AM?

Thu Jul 26, 2001 5:59 am

Pan Am Delta interchanges were common throughout the 1960s and 80s. Pan Am and Delta had an interchange agreement on IAD-LAX from 1971-1976.

Al
 
timz
Posts: 6083
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 1999 7:43 am

RE: How Big Was Pan AM?

Thu Jul 26, 2001 6:24 am

1973-1975 North American OAGs show no PA or DL thru plane IAD-LAX; Worldwide OAGs show no PA or DL flight from Paris to LAX via IAD. As I recall the PA timetables don't show it either, but I don't have any DL timetables from the early 70s.
 
IMissPiedmont
Posts: 6200
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 12:58 pm

RE: Acvitale

Thu Jul 26, 2001 1:31 pm

Normally I would not respond to something this old, but! You very obviously have no idea what you are talking about. A non US citizen COULD buy a ticket from JFK-LAX, MIA-JFK etc, etc etc. without an immediate connection to an international flight. It just had to be bought overseas. Go back to school and learn before you post such an absurd reponse.
The day you stop learning is the day you should die.
 
timz
Posts: 6083
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 1999 7:43 am

More On Europe-IAD-LAX

Fri Jul 27, 2001 1:23 am

Cearley's Delta book says that ca 1971 Delta was operating PA 747s on a few of its domestic routes, including ATL-LAX; as far as we can tell this was strictly a Delta flight and had nothing to do with the PA/DL interchange 747 from Europe to IAD to ATL (and MSY in some years). But it is true that at one point (1975?) the interchange flight arrived ATL an hour-and-a-half or so before a "Delta" 747 (different flight number) left ATL for LAX, so...
 
acvitale
Posts: 1911
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 8:25 am

RE: How Big Was Pan AM?

Fri Jul 27, 2001 1:59 am

IFlyPiedmont.

Having been a Pan Am'er I can assure you that is not the case. You could do so on other carriers but not, Pan Am. If you are so inclined I suggest a quick view thru the old CAB rulings and you will find this to be the case. Foreign or US citizen. Unless you were an online connection to Pan Am you could not use a Pan Am domestic flight.

As for the interconnection from IAD it was a 707-320 and you can read about it in the old airliners magazine that did a story on Pan Am.

Nuff said... It must be nice to quote stuff when you were not even around nor there.

The whole reason Pan Am bought National in 1977 was to gain a domestic feed and domestic traffic rights.

I suggest you check that out to I Fly Piedmont...

 
CroFlight
Posts: 268
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2001 11:33 pm

For The End...

Fri Jul 27, 2001 7:59 pm

Just to make it clear... PanAm was a symbol of US for everybody everywhere outside US. It's "blue globe" was the most recognized american symbol in the whole world.
Leave the stupid numbers, and leave the legend to rest in peace. Hope somebody will carry that big name proudly soon... all around the world, as it was before.
 
Tan Flyr
Posts: 1558
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2000 11:07 pm

RE: How Big Was Pan AM?

Fri Jul 27, 2001 10:20 pm

Well Put Croflight!

One point...TW was both a domestic and an International carrier. If The CAB said you had to be one or the other, how did TWA gain, or keep, the advantage that Pan Am lacked? The both contributed mightily to the effort in WWII,and gained lots of new routes in the late 40's around the world. Did PA not pursue domestic route autorites in those days? ACVITALE, or anyone know? thanks!
 
skyhawk
Posts: 1011
Joined: Sat May 19, 2001 12:23 pm

RE: How Big Was Pan AM?

Sat Jul 28, 2001 3:16 am

TAN FLYR - Thanks so very much for the kind words about Pan Am! So many people here have only been concerned with just the numbers of planes when they closed shop. You are one of the few that seems to remember how great a company they really were and how many records they set in their long adventerous life. On behalf of the many former Pan Amers around the world that miss the "blue ball" I thank you!!
 
acvitale
Posts: 1911
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 8:25 am

RE: How Big Was Pan AM?

Sat Jul 28, 2001 10:10 am

A few comments,

TWA was allowed to carry both International and Domestic traffic. Pan Am was viewed to be to large and the CAB believed it would be an unfair advantage to Pan Am and would run other carriers out of business hence the restrictions. In fact prior to deregulation several carriers were able to carry domestic and international passengers, These included TWA, Braniff, American, and Eastern. Unfortunately, Pan Am was still viewed in the 60s and 70s as to large and dominent and they were not allowed these privledges.

As for any other Pan Am'ers out there email me as there will be a former Pan Am employee weekend in September in South Florida (Ft. Lauderdale) a good time for family and friends to get to know each other again.

Albert Vitale (Pan Am employee #16578)

 
IMissPiedmont
Posts: 6200
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 12:58 pm

RE: Acvitale

Sat Jul 28, 2001 2:56 pm

As you were no more than 24 at the time of Pan am's demise, and no more than 4 in 1972, I can understand that you do not remember.

And what makes you think I don't know what I'm talking about? Perhaps I worked for Pan Am before you ever knew what it was? Trust me, I do know on this one.
Bye
The day you stop learning is the day you should die.
 
djmatthews
Posts: 207
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 1999 7:47 am

RE: How Big Was Pan AM?

Sat Jul 28, 2001 6:23 pm

Does anybody think it is worth while buying a name e.g. Pan Am, we all know that PAIII is not the original Pan Am, do they gain anything from using an old name rather than a new one? The repuation does not follow with a name... or does it? Any thoughts people?
 
ryanair
Posts: 646
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 1999 1:41 am

RE: How Big Was Pan AM?

Sun Jul 29, 2001 1:25 am

I just spoke to an ex PA Res Supervisor from the 1960's-70's who worked at various overseas stations and their 100% for real expert opinion is there were no circumstances you could fly purely domestic on PA before deregulation, with the exception of Honolulu. or to US Protectorates like Puerto Rica and Guam, unless you were staff in which case you could get away with it.

After deregulation but before National PA did sell seats aboard domestic legs.

Not my opinion, but the answer of someone whose job it was.

On the fleet size question, towards the end of the 1980's-early 90's the fleet was approx. 30x 747, 90x 722, 20x 310, 13x 300, 5-10x 732. Obviously fleet numbers were not static, but that's the numbers roughly over the period. Not so hot on Pan Am Express but I believe those numbers have been quoted already.

People wondering what would have become of PA, almost the entire 'old' pre National PA still exists, just look at UA Schedules across the Pacific, to LatAm and ex LHR, Delta ex. JFK + Shuttle and Lufthansa ex Berlin. The only bits that don't exist are the CArribbean, PA Express and Miami Domestic flights (of which not many were left).

Hope that helps  Smile
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: How Big Was Pan AM?

Sun Jul 29, 2001 2:32 am

It is so difficult to compare the airline industry now to when Pan Am was the premier flagship carrier of the USA. Unitl the 1970s when Pan Am started getting into financial trouble, they flew "everywhere" and there route network has huge. Of course the frequencies were different back then, and its flight departed from only select airports in the USA (JFK, MIA, LAX, SFO, IAD and a couple of others), but Pan Am enjoyed its success before there were hubs, flight connection complexes, feeder carriers and marketing alliances. As said, a very different time.

Concerning Pan Am's US domestic service, they were prohibited from flying pax within the lower 48 states until that was changed by the CAB (Pan Am did operate service to Hawaii and Alaska, there was a daily 747 flight from SEA to FAI and until the 747SP was introduced, the JFK-Tokyo flight stopped in Fairbanks). When Pan Am finally gained authoirty for domestic flights, the first routes were JFK-LAX and JFK-SFO, entering an already crowded market. Pan Am later purchased National Airlines, which was not a great deal as the airlines had totally different fleets (at one time PA was flying the 747, DC10 and L1011) and was forced to give up NA's valuable MIA-LHR route to get approval of the merger. The timing was bad, since with deregulation, PA could have built its own domestic route system - they also paid a lot for NA.

Then PA sold is pacific system to UA, the London routes to UA, closed down Carib service (only to return later), transferred the balance of Europe to DL, and then went out of business with the remaining South American services (where Pan Am had a fabulous name and reputation) going to United and the Pan Am Shuttle (something it got out of the People Express/CO/NY Air merger - a long story) ending up with DL.

To answer your original question, Pan Am was HUGE and its reputation and innovation made Pan Am far larger than the number of airplanes it owned.

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