VgnAtl747
Topic Author
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Return Of Concorde... AirFrance?

Tue Jul 24, 2001 7:25 pm

I know that BA has done test fligts, and modified their concorde fleet, but I havn't heard what Air France has done. Any test flights? Modifications? If not, will the Air France concorde fleet enter service at the same time as the BA fleet? I would think Air France would have to go through the same process that BA did. Any comments?
Work Hard. Fly Right. Continental Airlines
 
Guest

RE: Return Of Concorde... AirFrance?

Tue Jul 24, 2001 8:21 pm


I think AF has recently done tests as well. They want to start their flights one months later than BA. Around October.

Regards,
B737-700
 
megatop
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RE: Return Of Concorde... AirFrance?

Tue Jul 24, 2001 8:27 pm

According to the respected danish newspaper JP, both AF and BA start service again late summer or early autum.

Megatop

PS AF has also made at least one testflight.
 
GDB
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RE: Return Of Concorde... AirFrance?

Wed Jul 25, 2001 12:22 am

The previous AF test flights were with aircraft without the tank-liner mod, that's why G-BOAF's flights last week were so significant.
Only OAF has had all the work done, OAE is nearing completion and OAG is starting it's mod.
AF are doing (with a lot of help from EADS), three tank-liner mods now, with a fourth aircraft to start soon.
BA plan to start services in september, subject to modded aircraft availability. Hard to see AF starting services until october. AF won't like that, but BA and EADS were the driving forces in getting Concorde back.
AF started their tank-liner mods several months after BA, but they will no doubt benefit from the experience of OAF's work.
 
lehpron
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RE: Return Of Concorde... AirFrance?

Wed Jul 25, 2001 2:27 am

I read in some book a while back that the Brits wanted to withdraw from the Concorde program before it flew but the french had a serious commitment and basically told them that they do not have that option.

I think when she crash last year, and the news broadcasts reported that "...their 31-yr old girl has finally died..," they got broken hearted.

Either that or it has something to do with the fact that when Hitler came the France, they gave up so their art wasn't sacraficed; the world considered them wussies. Something giant, politically, had to happen to show that they wouldn't give up -- until they have a real excuse.

Anyway, when I see Concorde, and I mean no offense, I see it purely as a French airplane; BA seemed to have little respect for the passengers who died by keeping it in service after AF withdrew them.

They cost a half billion dollars each, you just can't be sloppy, we can't replace them! Soon they'll be as priceless as Egyptian mummies for crying out loud!

I think they care more, or not ... depends I guess.

-lehpron
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
RIX
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RE: Lehpron

Wed Jul 25, 2001 4:19 am

Extremely Ambitious and Sensitive - I see... Big grin
 
GDB
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RE: Lehpron

Wed Jul 25, 2001 4:45 am

Wrong, it's BA who have utilised Concorde more fully, (around 40% more flights). BA who have upgraded the cabin three times, compared to virtually nothing from AF.
BA had two JFK services per day, AF had one.
BA pioneered the charter market with Concorde.
BA have always had a large pool (approx 280) of dedicated Concorde ground engineers, many of whom built the aircraft when they worked for BAC.
As for the aircraft itself;
British Aircraft Corporation built the nose, forward fuselage, intermediate fuselage, rear fuselage, fin, rudder and engine nacelles.
Aerospatatiale built the wings, centre fuselage and other French companies did the undercarriage.
The engines were R/R Olympus, with a French nozzle/reheat system by Snecma.
Systems and avionics were split 50/50 between UK and France.
Production was at Filton, England and Toulouse, France.
After the crash, BA suspended the BA003/BA004 as a mark of respect and to allow checking of the fleet before service resumed next day.
So Concorde was the first truly joint project between two European nations, not just a French project.
Neither nation had the cash or technology to build it alone.
 
lehpron
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RE: GDB

Thu Jul 26, 2001 3:22 am

Dude, calm down, though I'm not sorry if I hit a nerve.

Check out "Vehicles" by Nigel Hawkes (buy it used on Amazon), it was published in 1991, hard cover black book. Publisher: MacMillan Publishing Company.

It said there that initially the two countries' concepts of an SST were different: British-short range, French-if it can't cross Atlantic, then no market. They couldn't do it alone, so they got together and went for the French ideal.

It also said there that the Brits indeed wanted to back out of the program, I never said that they weren't commited or not part of the Anglo-French alliance; history and you have showed us that. I was merely talking about the atitudes before anything was launched.

Stop going A-bomb on me, just because I choose to neglect stuff, doesn't mean I'm unaware.

Lehpron

BTW, what is GDB?
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
Guest

RE: Return Of Concorde... AirFrance?

Thu Jul 26, 2001 3:46 am

AF has also carried out plenty of tests, however not airborne. They have done high speed runway tests in a French Air Force base and of course strenghtened the wings, changed tyre type etc, etc. BA definately uses the Concorde more than AF on scheduled flights. AF only does the classic route but also carries out plenty of charter flights with them...

Regards: Sven
 
GDB
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RE: GDB

Thu Jul 26, 2001 3:57 am

I was aware of how some the British establishment was anti-Concorde, in fact they were, and are anti spending money on anything a bit risky.
A large proportion of the UK press are anti too, does not stop some of them have freebies on it though.
I actually admire the French commitment to technology and engineering, besides Concorde, there's TGV trains, Ariane rockets, Dassault aircraft to name a few. All areas that the UK was ahead of and let slip away in the past 40 years.
And Concorde's return is largely the work of Airbus France, (EADS). The EADS guys we had advising us were great.
If Concorde's wings were a BAE Systems product, we would be sunk now as they would not be really interested, (and you should have heard their modification suggestions).
The Concorde variant built, was the British 'long-range' concept, (trust me!)
I wasn't offended by your post, but you hear so much misinformation, especially in the past year.

 
RIX
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RE: Return Of Concorde... AirFrance?

Thu Jul 26, 2001 4:42 am

The transatlantic version (that was built) is BRITISH one...
 
teva
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RE: Return Of Concorde... AirFrance?

Thu Jul 26, 2001 5:17 am

Lehpron, was this book published in the States? In this case, be very careful with the content. Concorde had to face a hard battle to land in JFK. (Maybe because Boeing has not been able to produce their own supersonic... They even recently used the old Concordsky, to try to learn the technology)
Due to this battle, and despite the fact that Concorde has been adopted by american travelers, I know there are still a lot of people to criticize what they have not been able to do. I do not like polemics. I prefer the facts. Here they are.(GDB, I will not repeat your, but tx for knowing so much about the Concorde)

1) Concorde has never been profitable for AF and BA. Then, last year, the net income for AF was 90 Millions FRF. And if it is a financial disaster, why did BA operate 2 daily flights? (for prestige, 1 daily flight is enough). And why did Virgin try to lease Concorde from AF (as AF has only &1 flight, they do not need as many aircraft as BA, and Vigin wanted to lease 2 of them to compete with BA)

2) Concorde has been a financial disaster for BAE and French Aerospatiale.
If you only look at the aircraft sales, you are right. If you look the long term , that's not true. the equation is as simple as this:
Without Concorde, no Airbus !!!!!
- people from different countries learned how to work together;

- a lot of the technologies developped for the Concorde have been applied for the Airbus. The most famous example is the joystick you find in the A320, A330 and A340 families. (but it is not the only one)

I stop here as this note starts to be too long; I just hope that some of the readers will now read different books to collect more facts

Nana...
Teva
Ecoute les orgues, Elles jouent pour toi...C'est le requiem pour un con
 
go canada!
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RE: Return Of Concorde... AirFrance?

Thu Jul 26, 2001 5:29 am

The BBC says air france will start their flights a month after BA.This is according to BA and AF, with BA flying in September and AF in October


I can see AF selling their concordes, with BA snapping them up.
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
teva
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RE: Return Of Concorde... AirFrance?

Thu Jul 26, 2001 5:51 am

Go Canada,
Do you want a new revolution in France?
We did the mistake in the 70s, with "LE FRANCE", today the NORWAY.
Even if BA or Virgin want them (to make profit with them), we will never let AF do such a crime.
As I said, there will be a revolution....

Nana....
Ecoute les orgues, Elles jouent pour toi...C'est le requiem pour un con
 
GDB
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RE: Return Of Concorde... AirFrance?

Thu Jul 26, 2001 3:53 pm

Concorde profits for BA in the last full year were £16 million.
BA would not want AF Concorde's, not to fly anyway, they have been used much less and are at very different modification states to the BA fleet. I don't mean the new safety mods, just general routine structural stuff.
And it is in BA's interests in the long-term for AF to operate Concorde again, sharing spares keeps the costs down, and then there's the planned re-life 2 programme, cheaper if two operators are doing it instead of one. If re-life 2 does not happen, Concorde will be retired around 2008-2009. Re-life 2 could extend that out to 2014-15.
 
toady
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RE: Return Of Concorde... AirFrance?

Thu Jul 26, 2001 4:34 pm

A year ago I was puzzled by the reaction to BA's decision to continue Concorde flights - and I still am!
Why shouldn't they have continued? If (for example) an AF B747 were to crash, would all B747s worldwide be grounded?
Why the mention of "respect" for those who died? Are Concorde passengers & crew worthy of more respect than the rest of us?

This isn't meant to be inflammatory; it's a serious question.
 
airsicknessbag
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RE: Return Of Concorde... AirFrance?

Thu Jul 26, 2001 6:23 pm

Now this is very mean and cynical of me but anyway:
Do you think there would have been any effort to make her fly again (much less on behalf of AF) if AF 1 or 2 had crashed, and not AF 4590? For one, the hype would have been MUCH greater than it´s now, and the market would have been even deader than it´s now; no celebrity or industrial high roller would have set foot on that plane if not some unimportant German nobodies had been killed.

Daniel Smile
 
GDB
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RE: Return Of Concorde... AirFrance?

Fri Jul 27, 2001 3:54 am

The fact is was a heavily-loaded, much-delayed charter flight may have had some bearing on the circumtances, and BA's regular passengers know this.
Just imagine if we never flew on an aircraft type after a crash to respect those lost, fancy taking a boat abroad? Or only trains overland?
And it was an AF Concorde that crashed, not a BA one. BA complied with the instructions of the authorities, when they said it's OK to fly, they did, when they said stop, BA did.
What more are they supposed to do?

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