Whistler
Topic Author
Posts: 615
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 8:12 am

Air Canada DC-9s And 732s

Wed Aug 01, 2001 12:17 pm

I have a few questions about those 2 old planes which are both leaving the fleet soon (sadly  Sad). Are they already being retired? I think the DC-9s are already leaving the fleet, how many are left? How many were there to begin with? Also, I heard that the former Canadian 732s will be gone in the next 10 years as well. Does that mean they will begin retiring them in 10 years? If not when will they start leaving? What other planes are being retired in the near future?

And lastly, what will be replacing them? I am assuming either the A318, CRJ, or maybe 717 for the DC-9 replacement and more A319s for the 732 replacement. I think this has been discussed a lot though  Smile.

I can't really see any Boeings entering the fleet in the near future, unless you coun't the possibility of the 717, but it is more of an "inherited" Douglas design though right?


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Death of a legend  Sad. The 732 and DC-9 both soldiered on with Air Canada and Canadian for many years. They were both the pride of their fleets during their time  Smile. I suppose every plane has to go sometime though  Sad.
 
gmonney
Posts: 2076
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2001 2:59 pm

RE: Air Canada DC-9s And 732s

Wed Aug 01, 2001 12:42 pm

I think that the deal that AC gets from Airbus is better than any offer that Boeing can come up with. I think that you will see a lot more A318 - 9 - 20 - 21's in the near future. All being common it will be easy to have the proper trained crew. Check out the AC web site http://www.aircanada.ca and go to fleet. It will tell you how many of each aircraft AC has. Because of Canadian's poor planning, AC has to suffer with these old aircraft. Those Fokers are too old and the 732 are just gas guzzlers!!! AC had enough of those with the DC9's and the CRJ's. In 10 years I bet AC will have a kick ass fleet,

Hope that helps,

Grant
Drive it like you stole it!
 
fallingeese
Posts: 2031
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2001 2:33 pm

RE: Air Canada DC-9s And 732s

Wed Aug 01, 2001 2:46 pm

Oh yeah, Canadian's poor planning caused Air Canada to lose 300 million this quarter? I don't follow your thinking Gmonney. Canadian didn't have the money to buy new aircraft, or atleast alot of them. Air Canada is finding great use for the 747-400's and the 767-300's. The F-28's are being retired quickly but have generated a profit. The same goes for the 737's which are in extreme abundance in especially YYC. They may guzzle gas but they do generate profit. When you say the fokkers are too old, they are the same age as the 737's and even newer than the DC-9's. Air Canada's DC-9's are still around, is it because of their poor planning that they still have them?

One more question: It's a quote from the above post,

Those Fokers are too old and the 732 are just gas guzzlers!!! AC had enough of those with the DC9's and the CRJ's. In 10 years I bet AC will have a kick ass fleet,

I was wondering what do you mean?


Mark McWhirter...Contrails Photography
 
AC_B777
Posts: 724
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2000 5:15 am

RE: Fallingeese

Wed Aug 01, 2001 9:39 pm

Fallingeese,

A lot of that $300 million lose was due to Canadian's debt. Yes, we lost a lot because of the downturn in passenger traffic and high gas prices and the merger as well, but don't forget that a couple of years ago AC was making a profit while a lot of other airlines were not.
Finding great use for Canadians a/c, of coarse, what do you think AC is going to do with them? Park them and still try to operate the same network?
A lot of AC's debt had to do with CP's planning, not all of it, but a lot of it. CP would have collapsed due to its financial planning, but AC stepped in to help. Thus taking on CP's debt.
The only bad planning by AC was rushing into this merger.

AC_B777
In life, some days you are the bug..... some days you are the windshield!
 
CV990
Posts: 4224
Joined: Sat May 22, 1999 3:49 am

RE: Air Canada DC-9s And 732s

Wed Aug 01, 2001 10:19 pm


Hi!

Just to let you know that on that last Friday I was taxiing in the BA 747-400 G-BYGG at PHL I saw one Air Canada DC-9-30 taking of, that was awsome, but the best was no doubt at STL when I saw a Northwest DC-9-15!!!!! Still going strong!!!
regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
AC183
Posts: 1496
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 1999 10:52 am

CP Mismanagement

Thu Aug 02, 2001 12:52 am

Fallingeese, CP was definitely trying to do as much as it could with it's fleet, but that fleet was the result of many years of mismanagement. Between PWA, CPAir, Wardair, and later Canadian's purchases, deliveries, cancellations and sales of aircraft types including 727, 737-300, 737-200, A310, 767-200, 767-300, 747-200, 747-400, DC10, A320, F100, MD80 they never kept a consistant fleet plan and carried it through (and that cost them bigtime).

The other big problem was CP was overstaffed at 200 employees per aircraft (and contracted out some work to AA/Sabre to boot). Management should have made the tough decisions in 1993 and cut the size more, but unions prevented that and so they never managed enough productivity to make money.
 
Guest

RE: CP Mismanagement

Thu Aug 02, 2001 1:04 am

It drives me nuts!!!!, Canadian made 2 quarter profits since it's creation in 1987 and people still find a way to say that it's Air Canada's fault!!!!
Somebody at Canadian must have made a few mistakes in 13 years, you gotta admit that!!!

Now we are stuck with an integrated workforce, we know canadians part is overstaffed, but we will suffer most of the layoffs cause we are more junior!!!

We only bought canadian to secure the international route rights, in order to become a true global carrier, certainly not for their fleet or debt but also because the government forced us to!!

Jean-Marc
 
fallingeese
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Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2001 2:33 pm

RE: Air Canada DC-9s And 732s

Thu Aug 02, 2001 6:59 am

I completely agree that it is not Air Canada's fault, though you have to remember that Air Canada was a crown company for along time, so it had some help in the earlier days, in which the carriers that formed Canadian did not. When Canadian was formed nobody knew who Pacific Western would buy, Air Canada or CP Air. they went for CP Air which int he end seemed to be the wrong decision. the acquisition of Wardair was bad timing not to mention costly, in it had been purchased later, or not at all Canadian still might have been around, though struggling. Wardair's "post take over spending spree" cost Canadian bigtime. With many aircraft cancellations, and aircraft that weren't needed.
Mark McWhirter...Contrails Photography
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: Air Canada DC-9s And 732s

Thu Aug 02, 2001 7:17 am

The original question, about the older jets in AC's fleet is an interesting one that we discussed before. The first problem is that AC really does not have the money at this time to go out and order all of the aircraft necessary to replace the DC9/737/F28/146 - some new Airbus narrow-bodies are on the way and AC will downsize to some extent and thus some of these planes will be retired, but the issue of replacement remains.

A318 or B717 - this is a tough call. Some are convinced that AC will continue with its Airbus fleet and buy the A318, others (including myself) think that we may be surprised and see a large 717 order from AC. Why? The 717 is "less" aircraft and therefore may be better suited for the short haul routes that AC will use it on, Boeing is likely to make AC a very good offer as it would like to sell the 717, especially to a major airline, to get that program moving a bit, and the 717 may be cheaper to operate.

The other issue is that of Union agreements made by AC which control the types of aircraft that are flown by mainline AC and its regional affiliates. While the purchase of one type, either the 717 or A318, may seem logical, it is not clear if the answer is that simple and different types may be used by the different divisions of AC.

Just to confuse matters, AC would also like to retire its 762 fleet in a quick fashion from what I have read and heard, so there is a lot going on and we will just have to wait to see what AC does first.
 
Guest

RE: Air Canada DC-9s And 732s

Thu Aug 02, 2001 7:19 am

While it may be true that Air Canada was a crown corporation we have never been in the favors of the government as much as Canadian was!!!
First of all we were fully privatised in 1988, so roughly when Canadian was formed!!!
As soon as Canadian started to struggle the Canadian government jumped in with all sorts of ways to help. First, they bought the A310's at a huge price, at a time where they did not really need them!! Then they took away the department of national defence contract and gave it to Canadian. whenever Air Canada applied for new routes, we were always blocked, we were granted Japan but only Osaka and 4 times a week initially, Tokyo was denied. Hong kong at first the Canadian government said that they were willing to give us the route but that it would be impossible to get slots, Air canada on it's own got the landing slots and then the govenment reluctantly gave us authority for 4 flight a week but only if we gave up our rights to Jakarta, Kuala Lumpur, manila and Vietnam!!!! We had applied for Prague and use to have this right, we had started to sell codeshares with Lufthansa and the government turned around pulled our landing rights and gave them to Canadian so they could sell a code share with BA, let's not even talk about Italy that has always been denied eventhough we had reached beyond 300 000 Pax!!!
So yes true we were a crown corporation more that a decade ago, where do you see that that gave us any edge over Canadian!!!

Jean-Marc
 
Guest

RE: Air Canada DC-9s And 732s

Thu Aug 02, 2001 7:27 am

I also have forgotten all the money both western provincial and federal governments have loaned, given, plus the Fuel Surtax that had been removed, etc, etc.
the list of favors received by Canadian from the government is far longer than Air Canada's

Jean-Marc
 
fallingeese
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Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2001 2:33 pm

RE: Air Canada DC-9s And 732s

Thu Aug 02, 2001 7:47 am

Back to where we were though:
The aircraft selection all depends on the pilots similar to the discount carrier. But right now they don't really have the money to go ahead and buy those new aircraft. The A318 might not be economical in Air Canada's fleet, but they save in training costs. The 717 may be more economical, but since it has no cominality with Air Canada's other aircraft it looses that battle. Next is politics, since the 717's wings are built in Canada that also plays a factor. Then you have Boeing wanting a major airline operating the 717, so there is insentive their too. Any guesses?
Mark McWhirter...Contrails Photography
 
yow
Posts: 2125
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2001 2:47 pm

Back To The Topic

Thu Aug 02, 2001 1:52 pm

Here are AC's fleet plans for the next couple of years:

Get rid of 3 762s and 6 763s (probably ex:CPs being returned to their lessors)
All remaining 19 CRA F28s will be gone by the end of 2002.
20 732s will be transferred to the new no-frills AC Lite.
1 744 and 2 343s will be returned to their lessors when their leases expire.
There is no mention of the 17 DC-9s being sold or retired, meaning that they should be around for at least two more years. YAHOO!!!  Smile l love those 9s.


More details are here: http://www.newswire.ca/releases/August2001/01/c6520.html