LatinPlane
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San Diego's Bi-National Airport

Wed Aug 01, 2001 5:01 pm

HE IS OFFERING his backyard, in Mexico. His idea is simply to put San Diego’s next airport literally on the spot where California meets the Mexican state of Baja California, some 20 miles southeast of San Diego’s tiny Lindbergh Field. It is being taken seriously on both sides of the border.

In effect, Mr. Nieders is proposing North America’s first truly “international” airport, a facility shared by the U.S. and Mexico. U.S. airlines would relocate into new terminals on the California side of the site, alongside new restaurants and rental-car counters; Mexican airlines and services would stay put on the Mexico side. The airport’s runways, maintenance hangars and fuel storage tanks — and the clutter and the noise — also would remain in Mexico.
Understandably, San Diego officials like these features and so are considering Tijuana among possible airport sites. “We all know Lindbergh Field can’t handle the traffic,” says Michael Hix, senior transportation planner for Sandag, the city’s association of county and municipal governments. The airport “makes a lot of sense.”

Ernesto Ruffo, Mexican President Vicente Fox’s newly appointed “border czar,” says Mr. Nieders’s plan for a binational airport plan is a top priority. In addition to the noise, Mexico stands to reap a windfall of at least $100 million in annual runway and scheduling fees from Mexican and U.S. airlines, a sum it could never hope to earn serving Tijuana alone.
Costing between $50 million and $100 million to cover land, access roads and the terminal itself, the binational airport would be a bargain compared with other airports’ billion-dollar price tags. The reason it is possible is that the Mexican half is already in place. Tijuana’s General Abelardo Rodriguez International Airport — Mexico’s fourth largest, with 3.5 million passengers annually, most of them U.S.-bound — lies just 10 yards from the U.S.-Mexico line. Its main runway runs along 2,000 feet of border fence.

Mr. Nieders, a 47-year-old architect and son of a Norwegian immigrant to Mexico, powers up a computer-generated version of his cross-border vision. Satellite-view photos and artists’ renderings reveal a new terminal whose chief function would be to funnel U.S. passengers briefly into Mexico to board planes sitting on runways there. Ticket counters, baggage handling and security for U.S. passengers would stay in the U.S. A pedestrian bridge, accessible only to ticketed passengers, would take them via moving sidewalk over the border.
The two governments would probably insist on putting a combined immigration-customs checkpoint on the bridge, to handle passengers traveling on domestic U.S. flights. International passengers would continue to pass through immigration and customs posts just as they do now. As for control of contraband and illegal immigrants, Mr. Nieders says the border crossing would be entirely indoors and as easy to police as that at any international airport where passengers change planes.
Mr. Nieders consults with the managers of Tijuana’s airport, Grupo Aeroportuario del Pacifico SA, the Spanish-run consortium that won a 25-year concession to operate Mexico’s western airports in a 1999 privatization. The Spaniards thought enough of Mr. Nieders’s plan that they made him their point man for marketing.
Lindbergh Field itself is probably the best argument for a border airport. Passengers last year numbered 16 million, more than five times the Tijuana airport’s traffic. Virtually within walking distance of downtown San Diego, the once-remote airfield has been swallowed by an expanding city.
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Opened the year after Charles Lindbergh’s historic trans-Atlantic flight in 1928, Lindbergh Field sits on a 500-acre pocket of land, hemmed in by a Navy base on one side and some of the West Coast’s priciest homes on the others. Its single runway is too short for the latest generation of jumbo jets. Its two parking lots are so cramped that visitors arriving after 9 a.m. often find that the spaces are all taken.
San Diego planners have been searching for a decade for a new airport location within county limits. Community activists have lobbied to keep it away from the wealthy neighborhoods of Mission Hills and La Jolla. Two other possible sites — the old U.S. Navy air station at Miramar and land adjacent to the Marine Corps’ Camp Pendleton — share a different obstacle: more than 10,000 rounds of unexploded shells lying just below ground level, a dangerous and expensive problem to remove.
Mexican officials have proposed letting California use their airspace before, but the idea languished amid anti-immigrant sentiment. Then the 1994 peso collapse put most border infrastructure plans on hold. Since then, commerce between the Californias has surged to $20 billion a year under the 1994 North American Free Trade Agreement. Businesses on both sides are clamoring for more air-cargo capacity.
Mr. Nieders’s binational terminal leaves much of the revenue-generating potential in the U.S. The more lucrative parking, restaurants, car-rental agencies and shops would be in San Diego — activity that could raise an estimated $25 million in payroll, property and sales taxes annually for the city, according to forecasts by San Diego’s port authority.
Mexico has something else San Diego needs: unused landing rights for Asian carriers arriving from across the Pacific. Those rights would entitle U.S. flights departing from a border airport to land in Tokyo, Seoul, South Korea, and Taipei, Taiwan — something they can’t do now from Lindbergh Field’s short runway.


Copyright © 2001 Dow Jones & Company, Inc.
All Rights Reserved

The Asian flights sound good to me!!!!!!!

 Smile LatinPlane
Pan Am - The World's Most Experienced Airline.
 
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lindy field
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RE: San Diego's Bi-National Airport

Wed Aug 01, 2001 7:48 pm

I would say that this is ABSOLUTELY the best option for San Diego given the obstacles at other sites. Although I realize that a border airport is not the most convenient location for many San Diegans, it faces less opposition from locals concerned about noise. It would also be much, much less expensive to construct, and would symbolize the increasing interdependence of San Diego and Tijuana. For us spotters, there would be a great combination of Mexican and American aviation--if the architects could be convinced of the necessity of an observation deck... I also think that a combined airport would do well to attract more international flights.

Lindbergh Field should be kept open for Southwest and a strictly limited number of long-distance flights, sort of like Reagan National in DC or London City.

Can somebody better explain why this idea is attracting renewed attention? Is Mr. Nieders the owner of a substantial amount of land on the border? Is it just that he's decided to cash in by offering his land for sale?
 
rojo
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RE: San Diego's Bi-National Airport

Wed Aug 01, 2001 9:15 pm

Finally, they think globally.

San Diego needs a new international airport and the planning needs to be done this year. I will go for the bi-national airport as the best option.
Airlines will have their nationals working for them. That means, AeroMexico, Mexicana, Azteca, etc. will use Mexican staff for their flights. US Airlines can keep US personnel for their flights.
Although a lot of regulationa has to be done in order to get the airport to work, I go for this option.

Rojo

 
rlwynn
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RE: San Diego's Bi-National Airport

Wed Aug 01, 2001 9:18 pm

They have stolen my idea!!!
Actually, we were driving to Brown field and the road goes right by TIJ. We were in the U.S. but the airport is right on the border and you have a good view of the planes from the road.

That was the exact conversation we were having while driving by. We agreed that the airport would one day be for both countries.

That was 15 years ago.
I can drive faster than you
 
Guest

This Idea Was To Be Tried In The Middle East!

Wed Aug 01, 2001 9:48 pm

You know, in the southern Israeli city of Eilat and the souther Jordanian city of Aqaba, they were going to build an airport with two terminals on either side of the border and then have a runway that goes down the border with half of the runway being in Jordan and the other half being in Israel. This idea was cut out because of the costs and the conflicts in Israel and Palestine.
 
johnboy
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RE: San Diego's Bi-National Airport

Wed Aug 01, 2001 11:23 pm

I've always thought this was an intriguing idea. Alas, the devil's in the details and this is no exception. I'm not sure I understand everything here. I've been past this airport several times, having lived in San Diego County a few years ago.

It's very close to the Otay Mesa int'l border crossing point, which was/is being upgraded for NAFTA truck traffic. So the potential highway links are there. it wouldn't be too much trouble to extend the San Diego Trolley over to that area, with a branch somewhere off the San Ysidro line. That helps even more.

I don't understand the int'l checkpoint situation. Would ALL departing and arriving US passenger have to go thru some type of Customs checkpoint? That sounds so inconvenient if so. I also doubt that the other airlines making a leap down to Otay Mesa would appreciate Southwest getting Lindbergh Field all to themselves. Sounds like an "all or nothing" proposal to me.


I don't think you'd have to worry about North County people if this scenario came to fruition. Those rabid John Birch'ers would never travel to Mexico to take a flight anyway.
 
ghost77
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RE: San Diego's Bi-National Airport

Thu Aug 02, 2001 3:08 am

I really don´t agree with this idea... The US comming to our country, use advantage of our Airport, in few years the build of another rwy..., this would be great to us because the beneffits, will be just great.. more money to our Country.. etc.. but I just don´t get it..

Yesterday all most, all day long I decided to check past posts... I read the Topics " What´s the worst City in the World " I´m pretty shure some came up to the conclusion that was Tijuana, Mex!... Or some conclude that water here is not clean!! OF course it´s clean what you can´t do as in America it´s to drink it.. that all.. So I think if they don´t like our country, if they don´t like our City, why they come up with the idea to place a " truly internacional airport here".

CONCLUSION: TIJUANA IS NOT ALL THAT YOU CAN SEE OR SAY ABOUT MEXICO !!!

Well in my personal opinion the expand or new construction to what be the Internacional airport in the MEX/US Border, it would be great!! And the Asian flights more than great!!

Greetings from,
Mexico City
Ricardo Morales - flyAPM - ¡No es que maneje rapido, solo estoy volando lento!
 
Bicoastal
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RE: San Diego's Bi-National Airport

Thu Aug 02, 2001 3:31 am

This is what I've been predicting all along. Miramar is a pipe dream. Tijuana is reality for the San Diego's airport solution.
Airliners.net has many forums. It has spell check and search functions. Use them before posting!
 
sr117
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RE: San Diego's Bi-National Airport

Thu Aug 02, 2001 3:33 am

I like the idea, I wonder though, the idea has been thrown around so many times that I'm just a bit unsure if anything will materialize in the end, however, seeing that Ernesto Ruffo and the new airport authority seem to be activeley pursuing it gives me more confidence that maybe things are more serious now.

To Ghost 77, yes there are some people with negative opinions about Tijuana, but not just from the US, but from within Mexico also. If this border region wants to grow and be more dynamic, we're gonna have to start working together on the regions biggest problems and do away with the "the gringos are out to get us" or similar mentalities, they just don't belong in the picture anymore. So I am glad and hopeful that this project will one day be a reality, it would be nice to see more airplane traffic here  Smile

Ricardo
 
rlwynn
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RE: San Diego's Bi-National Airport

Thu Aug 02, 2001 3:33 am

Correct TIJ is not all Mexico has to offer. But it is hard to ignore that huge city which separates the rest of Mexico from San Diego.
I can drive faster than you
 
LatinPlane
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Ghost77

Thu Aug 02, 2001 4:36 am


So what exactly are you trying to say Ghost77? Are you in favor or against it? You sound like you are neither/ nor!

Of course, Tijuana is one of the worst cities there is. It's horribly planned out. It's no Paris of the Americas. If Mexicans in Mexico think that way of TJ then what do you expect of other people of different countries to say. And all you have to do is take off from Tijuana's airport and then land in another city like Monterrey, Guadalajara or Leon to see the difference in the way that these other city centers have been properly planned out. It's a shame that a city which is located next to the 7th largest economy in the world (California) be so poor and underdeveloped. But what reasons and who's problem is that? Not the Americans to say the least! By the way, my family has a house in TJ.

But just because it is, that doesn’t mean that it always has to be that way. If the proper things are done to create a better standard of living for the citizens, the city can be well on it’s way to becoming the next Hong Kong of the future. Hong Kong was once as poor but thanks to great government (The British) and the Chinese entrepreneurial spirit, Hong Kong has an enormous amount of wealth. Who says this can’t be done in Mexico? I sometimes see some Mexicans thinking this way and it’s very upsetting to tell you the truth!

My God, if I was the governor of Baja California norte/sur, I'd make it my personal goal to make out of TJ, the next Las Vegas of the world. With the proceed that would be collected from Tax paying Casino's .I'd invest it right back in the city, properly creating the right infrastructure to spur economic development which would increase the standard of living that is very much needed in this part of the world.

The idea of building the airport in Mexico would not only benefit Americans, whom have to deal with the “not in my backyard” slogan of building airports, but Mexico would truly be the one to reap the most benefits as jobs would instantly be created from day one not just to built the infrastructure but to maintain the economic growth that the airport will bring to Mexico’s side of the deal.

Mexicans in that part of the country (Baja California) are well prepared to make it a more unified global society. Education is different in this part of Mexico. All students are trained to read and write in English as it’s their second tongue. I personally know some people from Tijuana who can read and write English better than some Americans kids I’ve seen on this forum. So they know that the right thing to do is to think open-mindedly because their future depends on a stronger North American economy/society.



 Smile LatinPlane

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sr117
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RE: San Diego's Bi-National Airport

Thu Aug 02, 2001 5:20 am

Aww come on Apollo, I'm sure that if there was a competition for Mexico's dumpiest city we would have plenty of competition !  Big grin Reynosa, Matamoros, and Cd. Juarez ain't no gems either.

I honestly think it's a bit unfair to compare Tijuana to Guadalajara, Monterrey or Mexico City, why? Well the reason is simple, those cities as well as most other places down south were established long ago, more than 400 years ago, and the place where Tijuana sits was virtually empty 100 years ago, there was an original plan for the city, however the large ammount of internal migration from poor states down south totally exceded those plans, and it's been the problem plaguing the city ever since. The government can barely cope with the large influx of immigrants coming every day, because we have a pretty crappy budget, there is too little money to go around, we generate a lot of tax revenue, however all that money goes to Mexico City and we only see a fraction of that money back. So the local government pretty much has it's hands tied and tries to manage running such a problem ridden city with so little money.

However as you say, education standards in the region are very high, the region is a goldmine of potential oportunities just waiting to be exploited, let's hope the binational airport is one of them.
 
johnboy
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RE: San Diego's Bi-National Airport

Thu Aug 02, 2001 7:04 am

I agree that Mexico (la ciudad) has long captured the money available in Mexico (la republica). In a way it's like Paris with the rest of France -- it's the heart, if not quite the soul of the rest of the country.

That being said, corruption and drug-dealing, I'm afraid, are also handicapping Tijuana today. I hate to say that this is ingrained within the power structure of society, but I believe it is. This would present a real problem to deal with, with respect to a bi-national airport.

But....it sounds much more "do-able" than other plans that have been bandied about. As I've argued before in other posts, San Diego needs to look south for their destiny, not north towards Hell Ay. They've always argued for Asian nonstops, abra-cadabra, there they are!  Wink/being sarcastic
 
ghost77
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RE: San Diego's Bi-National Airport

Thu Aug 02, 2001 7:15 am

Well, my answear is that I`m in favor with the Bi-National airport.. but I`m also against, what I`m really trying to said is that some people complain to much about MY country specially TJ!! And I think is not fair, to come to us and get to an agreement of something when they just want.. or need.. hope you understood me..

------------------

En cuanto al Aeropuerto y la expansiòn serìa mas que una estupenda idea.. asi como hacer crecer Tijuana en muchos aspectos asi como mas ingresos y favorecer tanto a los usuarios del Aeropuerto tanto de SAN como TIJ.. lo que no se me hace justo que en posts anteriores que ayer leì, se quejan mucho de las ciudades y del paìs.. asì que lo que no entiendo es que primero se quejan de nuestro paìs y ahora quieren hacer uso de Tij..

Espero me haya esplicado Latin..

Salu2
Ricardo Morales - flyAPM - ¡No es que maneje rapido, solo estoy volando lento!
 
rojo
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RE: San Diego's Bi-National Airport

Thu Aug 02, 2001 9:19 am

TIJ is quite a mess for a City, but I really think that a lot can be done if money from the bi-national airport gets to Baja California´s government. We need to improve our border cities and the only way we can do it is to get more taxes. Matamoros, Reynosa and Nuevo Laredo have been upgrading their infraestructure. Last month I was in Matamoros and you can see improvements to the downtown streets, two new hotels were built and hopefully it will keep growing with the "Maquiladoras" when the US economic slowdown ends. Unfortunatelly there are a lot of poor people in Mexico that want to go to the US to get a better way of life and they fly to TIJ, CDJ, MAM, REX to try to cross the border. We will have to deal with that until more jobs are created and they get better payment.

California has to understand that a bi-national airport will mean less money to invest in the infraestructure and in the people building it. Although it is hard to say, mexican wages are cheaper than US and that means lower costs. Asian flights is another benefit, so there are many benefits and I think that a solution to the problems the bi-national airport will create, can be worked out.

Lets see what happends, but first I will like to see a decision on the new Mexico City Airport, because dealing with the one we have today is very difficult.

Rojo
 
Trvlr
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RE: San Diego's Bi-National Airport

Thu Aug 02, 2001 9:55 am

I don't think the local media has given too much print space lately updating Mr. Nieders and his plans, so it's good that the Wall Street Journal (the article Rojo posted is from the WSJ by the way) gave him and Grupo Aeroportuario del Pacifico SA some coverage. There wasn't much mentioned in the article that we didn't know before, (although I had thought that the operators had only gotten route authority to Tokyo, and not Taipei and Seoul as well, which is good) however, it's nice to see that this plan hasn't run into any problems.

What will really be interesting to see is how this new proposed regional planning agency in San Diego (has it been created yet? And if not, when will it be??) will react to and cooperate with the plans for a binational airport. So far this is the most well-rounded option for San Diego, being the quickest and easiest one to pursue. If it does go through, some questions will be raised, however. First of all, what will become of Lindbergh field? It is obviously going to have to stay open, as the airlines would raise hell if they were forced to move their entire operation 20 miles south. The most logical solution to this problem is a limit on and then auction of the remaining, currently unused slots at Lindbergh. A route distance radius, akin to those now in place at LaGuardia and Reagan, would not be a good idea. This is because a rule like this presents more potential problems for a city in California than it would on the east coast, considering the inherent distance from San Diego the United States east of the Mississippi River, where over 75% percent of the country's population and wealth is concentrated. An airline like USAirways, that only serves destinations from SAN that are over 2000 miles away, would most likely be automatically barred from operating at SAN, drastically limiting the airline's attractiveness for people intending to travel on it for any other reason besides O&D traffic to the hubs.

Of course, one does not need to seriously regard this question until plans for a bi-national airport have been finalized. Myself, I think that before anything TIJ should construct some sort of bi-national cargo facility, as if you really look at the problem closely, you will find that the restrictions San Diego's current air cargo capacity are much more severe than on its passenger capacity.

Aaron G.
 
Mac
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RE: San Diego's Bi-National Airport

Thu Aug 02, 2001 10:30 am

My wish is this: I wish that somehow both Brown Field and Rodreguis International could be combined into one big international airport site. Brown Field has been sitting in its location doing practically nothing except for some general aircraft activity since the end of world war two. And all of that ten thousand foot main runway going to waste. I have no idea how a merge of the two could be planned.

Thank you, Mac



 
jumbojettim
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RE: San Diego's Bi-National Airport

Thu Aug 02, 2001 1:12 pm

Last year the residents of S.D. voted for an expansion for Brown Field, whether it actually happens remains to be seen.
If a bi-national airport actually is built someday, I could picture all cargo and international flights going in and out of this new airport, with all domestic flights remaining at Lindbergh. SAN has to much invested at this airport for it to be closed for good.
What do you think?

Later
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: San Diego's Bi-National Airport

Thu Aug 02, 2001 2:28 pm

Question: If American airlines are on the American side and the Mexican companies are on the Mexican side, where the hell does Air Canada and British Airways park??
 
ghost77
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RE: San Diego's Bi-National Airport

Thu Aug 02, 2001 2:39 pm

I think there would be A National side and the Internacional side.. If American arrives it would take a gate in the National side as some Mexican Airlines will be there too, and if BA arrives you might find it on the Internacional.. that´s what I think.
Ricardo Morales - flyAPM - ¡No es que maneje rapido, solo estoy volando lento!
 
Guest

RE: San Diego's Bi-National Airport

Thu Aug 02, 2001 2:56 pm

Is there any chance Lindbergh could get closed down and turned into a housing development like Stapleton?

rgds
russ
 
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lindy field
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RE: San Diego's Bi-National Airport

Thu Aug 02, 2001 8:09 pm

I agree that a bi-national cargo facility should be a priority. Let the planes land at "Binational" and let local vehicles carry the cargo to destinations north and south of the border.

I don't really see a problem with trying to limit most of Lindbergh's flights to those within a certain radius or those of highest popularity. How else would you convince/compel the other airlines to move their operations? Flights to LAX, LAS, SFO, PHX should be available from Lindbergh as well as a handful to hub airports. Let the rest of the flights operate from the new Bicoastal Airport.

Trlvr: I can't help but NOT sympathize with your US Airways example since they once had an inter-California network.

I don't think combining Brown and TIJ would work. Aren't they too far apart?

I don't think Lindbergh should be closed. Too much potential as an airport for business passengers, etc.

Tijuana IS an ugly city, but it's one which can rebuild itself when the financial situation is better. Believe me, it's happened in Berlin and Warsaw and other European cities. Warsaw was rebuilt after WWII, under terrible conditions. It was necessary to rebuild quickly to house all the homeless, so many of the buildings constructed in the late 1940s and early 1950s were unattractive but functional. Since the mid-1990s, as Poland's economy has developed, many of the older postwar buildings have been demolished and newer, more attractive buildings have been raised. The same can happen in Tijuana. I personally think that the US government should provide more aid and assistance to Mexico and should promote more crossborder trade, cooperation, and contacts. Can't wait for some Mexican teams in the NBA...

Sorry not to write in greater detail, but I'll expand on any of these opinions if anyone is interested.

Cheers,

L. Field
 
North County
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Why You Won't See A Bi-National Airport Near SD.

Fri Aug 03, 2001 12:49 am

Point One:

This idea has been talked about for almost 20 years and the major problem then as it is now is that the population center of San Diego County is moving NORTH not south toward the border. If they build the border airport and restricted flights out of Lindbergh then the closest airport for domestic flights for some of the residents in North San Diego County would be John Wayne airport in Orange County. You also have to consider the fact that Orange County is also dealing with the need for a new/expanded airport. The new airport will need to draw international travelers from South Orange County in addition to San Diego County. The future of any new international airport will be miles north of Downtown San Diego not to the south.

Point Two:

American Citizens want to use U.S. government regulated options when it comes to transportation issues. This is not a John Bircher statement, but a fact. When American Citizens go to Mexico they don’t drive past the border because they understand that the law and culture are different then in the United States. Take that to an even higher level with air travel and you see why an airport in/shared with Mexico is a long shot. This has nothing to do with TJ being a great or cesspool of a city; it has to do with people’s conception of safety. This prevailing attitude may someday change but it will take at 20-30 years at least and a new airport can’t wait that long.

Point Three:

The County of San Diego someday could be split into separate counties. In North County there is already talk of forming a new county out of the section from Del Mar north. I am sure the Central portion of San Diego County would not want to lose the northern (affluent and less densely populated) section. North County is the future of the San Diego area. The Central section would not want to be left to subsidize the Southern section. The border airport issue would become a rallying cry for the North County to split. If you find this idea far fetched then look at the San Fernando Valley City issue to the north in L.A. More affluent areas pay more taxes and if they feel they are not receiving the proper representation then they will vote to split off and form their own city/county. This is why you don’t see much local press on the border airport issue. Those in power in San Diego don’t want anything to do with it, so they are not even considering this an option.

I know these are not warm and fuzzy statements but they are the important factors in why you won’t see a border airport in the next 35 years.
 
Guest

RE: San Diego's Bi-National Airport

Fri Aug 03, 2001 4:44 am

I agree with North County. I'm sure the residents along the 78 corridor don't want to drive an hour south to the airport. That's why I'm against Pendelton and Borde rbecause they are both too far from the north and stouh respectively. That was one good thing about the downtown airport. It was only about 25 minutes or less from the majority of the city's population. A place like Mirarmar would be nice because that's in a pretty central area as well.
 
Greg
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RE: San Diego's Bi-National Airport

Fri Aug 03, 2001 5:49 am

Nothing good can come of this.
I don't want to share a billion dollar facility with a third-world country.
 
lehpron
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RE: San Diego's Bi-National Airport

Fri Aug 03, 2001 7:23 am

I agree with Airic, Miramar is a better place, everyone knows where it is, it's got two major freeways on either side and all the facilities are pretty much there, except for the terminals.

If anyone is against this idea, please note:

Combat aircraft are always louder than airliners because normally the last thing anyone would complain about during a military situation are the levels of noise.

Let's start construction!
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
LatinPlane
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Greg

Fri Aug 03, 2001 1:13 pm

Greg:

Mind your own business, you don't live in California!

Pan Am - The World's Most Experienced Airline.
 
North County
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Response To Latinplane

Fri Aug 03, 2001 11:29 pm

Latinplane – in regards to your response to Greg;

Why didn’t you respond the same way to those who agreed with your point of view who also don’t live in California?


How about responding to my prior post?
 
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lindy field
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RE: San Diego's Bi-National Airport

Fri Aug 03, 2001 11:33 pm

I disagree with most of the posters in the previous four messages whose outlook I find surprisingly pessimistic and conservative.

The North County citizens of San Diego don't want an airport in their backyard. That's fine, most people don't. The price they have to pay is the inconvenience of a long drive to a distant airport. There's no point in Pendleton, the terrain is unsuitable. In the case of Miramar, read the lines in the original article about unexploded ordinance. A binational airport costs a lot less in taxes because many facilities are already built.
There may be the political will since Fratboy-in-Chief Bush is desperate to win the Latino vote and transborder cooperation appeals to a certain politically important segment of the population.

If the people north of Del Mar don't want to drive south, let them drive north to El Toro or John Wayne or expand Palomar.
 
North County
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RE: San Diego's Bi-National Airport

Sat Aug 04, 2001 12:03 am

Lindy field

El Toro is not going to happen. It is dead in the water and the North Orange County supervisors are admitting that it would take a miracle for it to be become a commercial airport.

Palomar’s runway is far to short. It has housing and commercial structures encircling it, so it can’t expand.

It looks like we have three options:

1. Camp Pendleton

2. Miramar

3. Border

Remember that the airport issue will have to include considerations of passengers from South Orange County and South Riverside County. Camp Pendleton would support all three counties. Miramar would support all three to a lessor extent. The border would serve some of San Diego county but not the entire north. The subject of ordnance removal can be solved at a cost….. the problem of finding large enough areas for airports in residential areas is much more difficult and can’t be solved by money alone. The answer will be found on or near a military airport/base.

Lindbergh will survive if a Border or Camp Pendleton airport is built. Camp Pendleton is 50 miles from the border, 35 - 40 miles from Downtown San Diego. Miramar is 20 miles from most of North San Diego County and 45 miles from South Orange County.
It is also about 35-40 miles from South Riverside County.



 
WiLdmanVzla
Posts: 590
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2000 12:17 pm

RE: San Diego's Bi-National Airport

Sat Aug 04, 2001 12:16 am

I just have to say that I'm totally agree with what Ghost77 said in his first opinion... It's the real explanation

*******
 
North County
Posts: 681
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2001 11:52 pm

RE: San Diego's Bi-National Airport

Sat Aug 04, 2001 1:00 am

I didn't understand what Ghoast77 was getting at...not one single political leader of any power-base in San Diego is in favor a border airport. Mexico is pushing for the airport. I wonder why? US investment? But the US does not want to partnership with Mexico. Look at the present problem with the safety of Mexican trucks on US roads. Airports and air safety are an even more delicate issue.

Maybe this following story could explain why San Diegians don't want to partnership with Mexico on a major capital and public safety project.

TJ has a problem with disposing of their sewage. It is very poor system and when is rains enough RAW sewage flows into the TJ River at the border. This river flows into the US and empties into the Pacific about 2 miles north of the border. They end up having to close off the beaches numerous times a year on the US side. This problem has been going on for decades. The sewage flowing into the TJ River is normal procedure for their sewer system – not an exception. We don’t even call them sewage spills anymore because they are the norm. We sometimes have sewage SPILLS north of the border but the are usually the result of a pipe bursting or such… but no matter how much the local, state or federal government tries to work with Mexico they can't seem to fix/construct a sewage system that works. This is just one example of why Americans in the San Diego area don't want an airport at the border.

These are not conservative or pessimistic views. Liberals and moderates in San Diego feel the same way when it comes to dealing with Mexico.

Putting your loved ones safety on the line when they board an airplane makes people become conservative and cautious really quick.
 
North County
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RE: San Diego's Bi-National Airport

Sat Aug 04, 2001 1:31 am


I just wanted to add that a cargo airport at the border would be fine. I don't think you would find any opposition to cargo flights on the US side of the border since boxes don't have loved ones. I wonder what the pilots (and their families) think about a border cargo airport?
 
sr117
Posts: 681
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2000 2:00 am

RE: San Diego's Bi-National Airport

Sat Aug 04, 2001 1:36 am

Crikey ! this is getting ugly, the same old cycle of who's to blame etc etc. Raw sewage, well the story down the grapevine here is that when the Tijuana River was channelized, Mexico said they would do their share in their side of the border, and the US said they would do their share on their side, and what happens now? the treatment plant on the Mexico side is not sufficient, but is it me or is there no treatment facilities at all in the San Diego side, or anything to prevent it from overflowing when it rains,so maybe you should take that issue up with your representatives. But these types of arguments can go nowhere, if you use the Tijuana river argument, we can use the Colorado river argument, when we get the water from the Colorado river in eastern baja, it's nearly unsuitable for crop use and has been known to ruin lands because of it's high salt content, the wetlands in the colorado delta have nearly dissapeared because of the low quantity and low quality of the water we get. However that argument has no relevance here, I just use it to point out that it makes no sense to start bringing up other sore points in the trans border relation if the only reason for doing so is to say why we -shouldn't- work together, I say we should start moving past that and start getting into arguments that will actually help resolve the regions problems. We can continue bashing each other for years and years, but like it or not, we are neighbors and both cities definitley have strong effects over each other's economy, society etc etc, we are in it for the long run together, so I hope we can just be a bit more cooperative.

Safety... please, you can use any other argument exept that, we fall in category I, meets ICAO standards, no safety problems at all, of course don't take my word for it, take the word of the FAA.
 
North County
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RE: San Diego's Bi-National Airport

Sat Aug 04, 2001 1:53 am



OK - SR117, I gave the sewage story to give a little history lesson to the 90% of the readers outside of the San Diego area.

Lets move on....

It is still to far from the growing areas of North San Diego and South Orange County.

Maybe we should talk about making Camp Pendleton work as an airport.
 
LatinPlane
Posts: 2471
Joined: Mon Dec 27, 1999 11:05 am

RE: Response To North County

Sat Aug 04, 2001 2:19 am

Because you property substantiated your point of view and I certainly agreed with some of the statements you made. Did I answear your question? I'm not against anyone's opinion, but when they are stated in a way to make an ignorant remark I will properly respond to them at their own level.

Yes, Mexico is a third world country. Everyone knows this and it's irrelevant to bring up. So if this is irrelevant information why bring it up in such an ignorant form. We know why people do this...

As an American, of course I worry about the safety/conditions about building an airport in a land which has extremely different standards than the ones used in my country. Nevertheless, I have been thought in school to think that nothing is impossible and by this I hold that such a plan would work. Even if it takes hardship and sacrifice to learn from the mistakes that are going to be commited.

So why did it bother you that I responded like that to Greg? His profile states he's from Texas. We are talking about a Southern California issue and this is of no relevance to someone that lives in Texas. Unless they have an educated reason to state their opinions - not an ignorant one.

need I say more...

 Smile LatinPlane
Pan Am - The World's Most Experienced Airline.
 
Guest

RE: San Diego's Bi-National Airport

Sat Aug 04, 2001 2:23 am

I live outside of California...just thought I'd preface my remarks

Come to Austin, TX and see how the former Bergstrom AFB was converted to one of this country's nicest medium sized airports. If San Diego is serious about a new airport, than the only real choice is Miramar. Just my opinion and I've been to San Diego more times than I can count.
 
LatinPlane
Posts: 2471
Joined: Mon Dec 27, 1999 11:05 am

RE: San Diego's Bi-National Airport

Sat Aug 04, 2001 2:49 am

Very Well said SR117. Couldn't have said it better myself.

Uhh, what did Ghost77 say WildmanVzla? He didn't say thing... Well, at least nothing that has any relevance to the issue.

Yes, I know what you said Ghost77. I understand your emotions. It's my Mother country too you know. But the way to fix it is not by thinking backwards.

Verdad, WildmanVzla. Ya savemos lo que pasa cuando los lideres piensan para atras no para adelante.

Best regards,
 Smile LatinPlane
Pan Am - The World's Most Experienced Airline.
 
Mac
Posts: 287
Joined: Thu May 24, 2001 11:56 am

RE: San Diego's Bi-National Airport

Sat Aug 04, 2001 3:16 am

There may be a crack forming regarding the protective wall around military airport property in the greater San Diego area. For those interested...and in San Diego, read the front page of todays San Diego Union-Tribune.
More closings by the military may be in the offing...which, if they do materialize, may make something available in San Diego in regards to new airport space. I would like to read your interpretation of the story.

Mac
 
Marcus
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Hear Ye Hear Ye!

Sat Aug 04, 2001 3:24 am

TIJ Abelardo L. Rodriguez Airport is encircled by housing on the east and west, Baja California State University in the south and the Mexico/US border on the north.......so IT CAN'T GROW ANYMORE!!, why try and build a binacional, regional, international, transnational (you name it) airport in the area of an actual airport that is already cramped as it is?

One issue nobody has mentioned here, is the HUGE space that Brown field airport has just across the border from the Mexico/US border (on the US side); why not build the new San Diego airport there?, I know there is the issue of a mountain very close to the final aproach path.....but than can easily be solved by going in to mexican airspace for number of minutes.....just like mexican airliners do with US airspace, when they are forced to land from west to east because of prevailing winds.

Kids!....we are going to the happiest place on earth...TIJUANA! signed: Krusty the Clown
 
Mac
Posts: 287
Joined: Thu May 24, 2001 11:56 am

RE: San Diego's Bi-National Airport

Sat Aug 04, 2001 3:33 am

I have heard in the past that two airports so close together handling commercial traffic would be detrimental in that there would be a conflict in approaches and air traffic patterns which could lead to
accidents.

Mac
 
lehpron
Posts: 6846
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RE: San Diego's Bi-National Airport

Sat Aug 04, 2001 4:05 am

The thing that gets me about this "bi-national" airport is not so much the fact that there could be an alliance between US and Mexico, it's the great distances people have to travel to get there, as others in their posts have said (even if they aren’t from San Diego.)

I've been here since '86 and I'd choose Miramar for several reasons: 1) the concrete is all laid out, 2) there’s a huge allocation of area (because it's currently a military base) for future expansion, 3) there's access on both sides, rather than one at Lindbergh.

It's kind of unfortunate that underneth the T/O path is La Jolla. But y'all have got to cut this NIMBY crap out!!! If you don't want an airport in your backyard then move to where Lindbergh used to be with new beachfront homes that aren't on cliffsides about to fall!

Brown Field is already at the border, it's pretty much in the vicinity of that proposed airport, Latinplane, have some fun with it, make it regional, and leave Miramar to the big boys and girls.

Lehpron
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
Mac
Posts: 287
Joined: Thu May 24, 2001 11:56 am

RE: San Diego's Bi-National Airport

Sat Aug 04, 2001 4:41 am

I think we all concur that Miramar Marine Airstation would be an excellent choice. However the Marine Corps. Commandant has stated time and time again that there is no way that the Corps. will hand over Miramar to civilian or commercial operations...period.
Having said that, as you may have seen in the paper this morning...the paper being the San Diego Union-Tribune, there will probably be congressional talks taking place in 2003 about additional closings of military bases around the country. If the closings, when and if they do take place, include Miramar, which I don't think will happen, then the way just might be open to shifting operations there.

This whole business of Miramar's fate is in the hands of Congress. It will take Congressional action to decide that fate. Our Republican Congressman Randy Cunningham along with another member of the house from San Diego whose name slips my mind at the moment, probably will stand up for the retention of the Marine complex. However, I have sensed a slight decline in support of the local military establishment in the past few years...and more support for commercial development including tourist trade. Major business here has a very large voice regarding the future of our community...and this voice may reach as far as Washington D.C. Trade means billions of dollars to San Diego...and trade means there must be quick and efficient air transportation to and from this area...and those two congressmen don't want to lose their jobs. So, as I said in an earlier post, there just may be a crack showing in the wall protecting the military in our town.

Mac
 
User avatar
lindy field
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RE: San Diego's Bi-National Airport

Sun Aug 05, 2001 5:59 pm

Just a few points to keep this thread alive:

1) San Diego is such a sprawling city that an airport in ANY location is going to far away from someone. An airport in either Camp Pendleton or Brown Field or on the border is going to be a bit of an inconvenience for someone living in El Cajon or Claremont. However, since land is at a premium in San Diego County, it's important that a location for an airport is chosen quickly--otherwise you may find developers building homes in potential airport locations.

2) Isn't the problem with Pendleton the nature of the terrain and the fact that runways would have to be oriented from north to south? And that it would be at the edge of the county?

3) For those wondering, although I am writing from Poland and my permanent address is Connecticut, I spent 19 years in San Diego.
 
Guest

RE: San Diego's Bi-National Airport

Sun Aug 05, 2001 10:48 pm

When the big one hits and SoCal slides into the Pacific, all this speculation will be for nothing  Big grin
 
flashmeister
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RE: San Diego's Bi-National Airport

Sun Aug 05, 2001 11:41 pm

The simple fact is that that US and Mexico, being neighbors and growing trade partners, are going to have to cooperate.

The binational airport makes the most sense. It uses regional resources most effectively, thereby saving money in the long run and being more environmentally-friendly.

As far as the sewage BS goes, fine. Take the first 'X' amount of revenue from the airport and specify its use to upgrade the Tijuana sewage treatment system. Use US technology and US contractors working with Mexican contractors and solve the freaking problem.

Bitching endlessly about 'he did-she did' junk gets you nowhere.

As for Lindbergh, maybe make it west-coast flights only. No one is going to connect in San Diego for a flight from the east coast to a point on the west coast, except for maybe WN... and even then, make it so Phoenix/Las Vegas flights can continue to Lindbergh. Make the other flights at the bi-national facility. Solved.

We have two leaders (Bush and Fox) who get along, who have experience working together, and who are willing to work together to get problems solved. Both are NAFTA-proponents, and both can direct their staff to cut through the crap (pun intended) and get this airport built.