airbus_330_340
Posts: 154
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2001 11:56 am

NWA-worst Fleet In Industry

Fri Aug 03, 2001 2:24 pm

I agree with "Dragon-Wings" Northwest has by far the worst fleet in the industry. This is mainly due to the fact that they use their planes for 20+ years apiece. Sure they bought 744s and A320/A319s but they still operate some of the oldest planes in the industry DC-9 series 10 aircraft: add that to their industry leading fleet of DC-9-30/40/50s, their large amount of DC-10-30/40s and their 747-200s. They still operate 742s on all flights from LAX and MSP to Asian destinations. They continue to operate their DC-10s with outdated interiors across the Atlantic to Amsterdam and London.

I once had a 5+hour delay in Detroit before my flight was cancelled on the Airplane because of two DC-10s(the first a -40, the second a -30). A large shard of metal about 4x4 ft was pulled off the GE-CF6 engine on the left wing of the -30. Their DC-10s are in immediate need of a replacement.

But NWA as usual is doing something stupid, they are replacing their domestic DC-10-40s with cramped uncomfortable 757-300s which will take f-o-r-e-v-e-r to board. They are replacing a widebody with a narrowbody. Why would they replace a plane that is always full (the DC-10) with a 757-300 which can only hold a maximum of 243 passengers while a DC-10 in domestic configuration can hold 298 pax with a wide body for comfort. NWA will swap a widebody for a widebody on their Atlantic routes with the A330-300. Northwest should have ordered B763s or A333s for their domestic routes as well.

All other airlines operate widebodies domestically and eventually NWA will not. UAL even operates 744s on their LAX-IAD route and 777s on the LAX-DEN (882mi) route. Northwest will surely lose the battle with long-haul domestic services (such as DTW-LAX,SEA,SFO) on 752s, 753s, and A320s.


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The Future NWA Domestic fleet... A320/A319, 752, 753.

 
Superfly
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RE: NWA-worst Fleet In Industry

Fri Aug 03, 2001 2:39 pm

I like Northwest because of there fleet!

As a 'true' aviation entusiest, I have to appretiate an airline that uses DC-9s, 727s, DC-10s and 747-200s.
These are some great planes and have lots of life left in them.
Would you rather them have an all twin engine fleet?

Long live Northwest!
Bring back the Concorde
 
Red Panda
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RE: NWA-worst Fleet In Industry

Fri Aug 03, 2001 2:52 pm

Though NWA has the oldest fleet, but the safety record is really good. NWA has only .4 fatal accident per 1 million flights compared to .5 for UAL (which has a more modern fleet)

Though, there are some incidents in the past few months for NWA.

r panda
 
DLL10
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RE: NWA-worst Fleet In Industry

Fri Aug 03, 2001 4:25 pm

Although I do not like NWA for their not so famous service and the fact that sometimes the F/As on transcontinental flights, particularly to AMS speak little or no English (which is a real shame on a US airline) , their fleet rocks. Where else do you find that many great a/c types combined ?
 
Whistler
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RE: NWA-worst Fleet In Industry

Fri Aug 03, 2001 4:30 pm

NW's may be old but they have new types on order. A330s and 757s. They are probably getting more A320s and 19s too. I think Delta has the worst fleet.
 
gsoflyer
Posts: 822
Joined: Sat May 12, 2001 12:31 pm

RE: NWA-worst Fleet In Industry

Fri Aug 03, 2001 8:52 pm

I like the old fleet.

The old fleet in combination with the newer planes is really nice. DC-9s are classic aircraft to ride, and they aren NOT bad flights. They aren't even that loud. Not as bad, as say, the Delta 727s I ride on to Atlanta or US Air Fokker F100s.

Anyhow, they have the Avro, which is again, a very nice aircraft. And sitting at DTW watching planes while waiting for the next flight, you'll see alot of different planes in their livery. That's one of the things I like about NW.
 
Guest

RE: NWA-worst Fleet In Industry

Fri Aug 03, 2001 10:32 pm

I think Northwest has a GREAT Fleet. They have just finished COMPLETELY Remodeling the DC9s and Hushkitted them. Their A320s are quite ugly I admit, I would rather go on jetBlue's A320. But NWA is replacing the DC10 with the 753. In your mind they take forever to board, but I think NWA has figured it out. Richard Anderson is a good man and before you start Bashing NWA fleet, take a look at Airtran's DC9s. Those things are UGLY.
 
mlsrar
Posts: 1384
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2000 7:41 am

RE: NWA-worst Fleet In Industry

Fri Aug 03, 2001 11:08 pm

It's refreshing to see yet another boorish anti-NW post meet disagreement. Where to begin?

>>This is mainly due to the fact that they use their planes for 20+ years apiece. Sure they bought 744s and A320/A319s but they still operate some of the oldest planes in the industry DC-9 series 10 aircraft: add that to their industry leading fleet of DC-9-30/40/50s, their large amount of DC-10-30/40s and their 747-200s. <<

Midwest Express also operates D91s and D93s. N801ME is actually the oldest flying Douglas twinjet. I suppose that since they're flying DC9-10s that they're also an airline with a reputation for mx delays, poor service and they too should be awarded a 'Worst Fleet' banner.
You referred to the NW -9 fleet as 'industry leading,' You're right. They are the only airline to retrofit their interiors with the 717-style interiors on ALL aircraft, regardless of retirement date.


Northwest's 742s are some of the youngest, and last of the 742s off the production line. They also received a number of aircraft from such operators as SQ...an airline with a reputation for impeccable maintenance and cleanliness. Their D10s, mainly their -30s are being retrofitted as we speak...Vacuum lavs, new seats, carpeting and screens. Their acquisitions from SR and JA also provided for a well-maintained airframe at a significant savings. Why is NW still flying these antiquated aircraft? They make money! These aircraft cost a fraction of a new one to purchase, and their signifcant increase in Atlantic RPMs over the past fiscal year has made it extremely attractive to operate these aircraft transatlantic. Perhaps if NW had not subsidized Bethune's new fleet at CO during their ownership, they could have begun the program earlier.

Regarding the -10s and 753s. Last I checked, the JT9D-7 was somewhat less efficient than the 2043s hinged to the 753 wing. The decreased passenger capacity is not going to have any impact whatsoever on traffic. The -40s carry little cargo, and NW has a few sundry mail contracts which could be flown with a DC9-10 sufficiently. Why operate an aircraft when, contrary to your uninformed opinion, the -40s rarely are full. Turnaround time has been proven effective on operations by Condor and Arkia as well as JMC's recent introduction of the 753. Call their VP of fleet management and explain to them how you think it's, how did you put it, stupid, to operate 753s on domestic trunk routes...the resounding scorn should ring clear across the atlantic.

Sorry to disappoint you, but UA1 is operated as a continuation of the around-the-world flight. On that leg, it experiences load factors of around 44% and acts more as a scheduled ferry flight to get it back to LAX for the HKG run. That load factor hardly justifies a 744. And you're impressed that UA runs a 744 between LAX, DEN, and ORD? NW has twice daily flights between MKE and MSP...it's called trunk-route-feeding. You operate flights during peak connection times to your hubs; not a new philosophy exactly.


Regards,

ml
I mean, for the right price I’ll fight a lion. - Mike Tyson
 
bobnwa
Posts: 4486
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2000 12:10 am

RE: NWA-worst Fleet In Industry

Fri Aug 03, 2001 11:15 pm

DLL10
"sometimes the F/A'a on transcontinental flights, particularly to AMS speak little or English."

I have never met a flight attendant on Northwest Airlines who could not speak English. I have flown on them for nearly 30 years and many times to AMS.

What are you talking about?
 
na
Posts: 9211
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 3:52 am

RE: NWA-worst Fleet In Industry

Fri Aug 03, 2001 11:22 pm

I disagree.
First you have to see that keeping the old planes was the best way to get rid of the dept that brought NW near to bancruptcy 10 years ago. Now they are very profitable and announced the short- to mid-term replacement of the DC-10s already.

And is a 15 year old B747-200 really old? No, I don´t think so. It´s just half way through its life.

From its looks Northwest even has the most interesting fleet of all US airlines. I mean, look what CO or Delta is flying, aren´t their fleets boring? Or the far-from-impressive all-twin fleet of AA? Come on, don´t tell they have a nice fleet for such a big airline.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: NWA-worst Fleet In Industry

Fri Aug 03, 2001 11:52 pm

Folks, let's face this obvious fact.

The NW DC-9 fleet is starting to getting to get old despite the excellent maintainance efforts of the airline. They do need to replace these planes over the next ten years.

This is why I think NW will probably look at a fairly substantial A319 buy along with a large order for RJ's in the next 3-4 years for Mesaba.
 
Braniff727
Posts: 656
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2000 2:25 am

RE: NWA-worst Fleet In Industry

Sat Aug 04, 2001 12:32 am

While they may not have the newest fleet, they do have reliable aircraft, and the are retiring several aircraft in the coming months.

Additionally, rather than spending millions on new aircraft, they maintain the current ones and deliver lower fares.

By your standards, Delta, American and to a large extent Southwest and United are bad airlines since they too operate several older aircraft (727's, MD-80's, 737-200's).

Thanks, but I'll fly on a DC-9-10 any day over an MD-80 is it's going to get me there cheaper and not fall out of the sky!
Climbing
 
Guest

RE: NWA-worst Fleet In Industry

Sat Aug 04, 2001 1:33 am

Yes, Northwest does have the worst fleet in the industry, But its the only airline that still flyes most of the classics

N728DL
 
JZ
Posts: 422
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 1:55 am

RE: NWA-worst Fleet In Industry

Sat Aug 04, 2001 1:45 am

I don't think old planes equal unsafe planes. However, older planes do present marketing and cost problems. Today on the Pacific route, NW is the only one still relies heavily on 747-200s while everyone else uses 744, 777 or 340. The average passengers are likely to choose newer planes over older ones. Plus, the 744 is more efficient to operate than 742. The same goes for 767/777 vs. DC-10 on European, transcontinental and Hawaiian routes
 
Braniff727
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Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2000 2:25 am

RE: NWA-worst Fleet In Industry

Sat Aug 04, 2001 2:14 am

NW Loads for 03AUG2001:

seats sold / total on a/c
NW 19 MSP-NRT 324/ 343
NW 83 MSP-NRT 332/ 353
NW 07 SEA-NRT 228 / 292

They all are like this, so I would have to say they are certainly filling their airplanes, and their customers don't seem to mind the "old" aircraft.

By the way, this information was taken from PARS, the NW computer system.
Climbing
 
777D
Posts: 285
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 7:27 pm

RE: NWA-worst Fleet In Industry

Sat Aug 04, 2001 2:16 am

I agree the dc-9 fleet is old and most likely in good shape but the efficiency issue of these aircraft must be looked. I assume the fuel consumption of a a319 or a320 is far superior to a dc-9 as well mordern equipment and most important safety. If NWA goes to a narrowbody domestic fleet they will be missing out on a lot of cargo. NWA flies freighters out of SEATAC and they need to feed those freighters. SEATAC alone cannot fill those planes!! That is what I have heard anyways. Narrowbody domestic fleet is out of the questions unless NWA wants to lose it's shorts in the cargo world.

I agree that the 742's are old and once again they are inefficient compared to other carriers. Fuel, turnaround, comfort, cargo and marketing issues are major factors and perhaps NWA does have this in works....

777D

 
SFOFlyer
Posts: 126
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 5:57 am

RE: NWA-worst Fleet In Industry

Sat Aug 04, 2001 2:49 am

I can't say that I agree with NW's fleet being the worst in the industry. It's certainly dated, but my vote for worst (at least in the States) would be shared between CO and Delta. I do lament NW not continuing domestic widebody service. I mainly fly UA for their fleet. I am often on the SFO-ORD route, operated by a wide variety of a/c. I always book with a 767,777, or 747. Personally, I wish other U.S. carriers had more domestic widebody service available. I find both the 757 and a319/320 very cramped. I've flown these aircraft on UA, NW, and Delta (757 only). If I've got to be on a single aisle jet, I'll take a next generation 737.
UA 1K Million Mile Flyer
 
Whistler
Posts: 615
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 8:12 am

RE: NWA-worst Fleet In Industry

Sat Aug 04, 2001 3:02 am

"The average passengers are likely to choose newer planes over older ones."

I sorta disagree with that, the average passenger probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a 747-100 and a 747-400 unless they were parked right next to eachother for comparison Big grin.
 
Guest

RE: NWA-worst Fleet In Industry

Sat Aug 04, 2001 3:17 am

Northwest has an excellent fleet. Widebodies? Who needs them. You like being stuck in the middle of the plane going to SFO from ORD? Gotta use the lav during dinner, forget it. The narrowbodies are better, because you can get out into the aisle easier, and you have a less chance of being in the "middle seat"!!!!!. I dont know about you, but I prefer narrowbodies. The DC-9 fleet has been remodeled with new seats, and is always kept clean.
 
SFOFlyer
Posts: 126
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 5:57 am

RE: NWA-worst Fleet In Industry

Sat Aug 04, 2001 3:31 am

Co Lite - If you book well in advance (as I do) on domestic widebodies, there's usually no problem getting the 2 outside seats on UA flights. I've done the segment nearly 30 times and have only been stuck in the middle twice. I'm still a dedicated domestic widebody traveler!
UA 1K Million Mile Flyer
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
Posts: 3961
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2000 1:18 am

RE: NWA-worst Fleet In Industry

Sat Aug 04, 2001 3:40 am

I gotta agree with Co LITE on the domestic widebody issue.. id much rather be sitting in coach on a 757 or A320 than cramed in the middle of a widebody.


Braniff727- might i ask how you got onto PARS?
Chicks dig winglets.
 
Braniff727
Posts: 656
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2000 2:25 am

RE: NWA-worst Fleet In Industry

Sat Aug 04, 2001 3:50 am

I have connections. I know a lot of people at NWA.
Climbing
 
Teej13
Posts: 447
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2001 5:52 am

RE: NWA-worst Fleet In Industry

Sat Aug 04, 2001 3:53 am

I dunno bout NW having the worst fleet. As has been discussed previously, new does equate better. A320s are not the most comforatble planes to fly on. I'm not expert, but once I'm inside a 742, I KNOW I'm inside a classic.. it's really a toss up with that issue.

For me, I don't give a rats ass how old the plane is except for these things:
1) Noise
2) Interior - older interiors are less comfortable
3) Maintainance - Take the L1011 - how often is it delayed due to mechanical probs?

Seat pitch, condition of interior, etc are all the responsibility of the carrier anywaysm but I always see it as a decision they have to make when configuruing these thigns anyways..
 
TimMSP
Posts: 216
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2001 11:35 am

RE: NWA-worst Fleet In Industry

Sat Aug 04, 2001 4:18 am

NW has one of the best fleets in the US. Where else can you find a wide variety of well maintained aircraft?

I recently flew on a 35 year old DC-9 from MSP to BDL.
The interior was in good shape and no hunks of metal were missing from the exterior.

I had a great window seat just behind the wing and lo and behold....the wing did not fall off during flight!

Their 727, 757, DC 9's of NW appear sleek and athletic when watching them takeoff or land, like they were meant to fly. Their DC-10's, in my opinion, look like the old Detriot muscle cars of the 70's. Nobody can deny the impact of being up close to a 747, no matter its age.

The only thing I have against their current fleet are the "new" A320's. I hate the way they look - you guessed it - buses with no grace or style.

 
Guest

RE: NWA-worst Fleet In Industry

Sat Aug 04, 2001 4:24 am

The DC-9 makes you feel like flying! Thats why I like it over the CRJ. Classics are great planes. NWA knows how to maintain old planes to the fullest extent.
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: NWA-worst Fleet In Industry

Sat Aug 04, 2001 4:27 am

NORTHWEST IS THE BEST! ! ! ! !  Smokin cool  Smokin cool
Bring back the Concorde
 
mlsrar
Posts: 1384
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2000 7:41 am

Atlantic Efficiency

Sat Aug 04, 2001 4:40 am

Northwest's business plan does include a heavy focus on cargo. They are the only US major to include a fleet of 747 cargo haulers...United has officially sent their 'Worldwide Cargo' fleet of -10s to VCV and LAS. Cargo is also a PART of the reason NW selected the 330 for the Atlantic upgrade program; I had better note that the majority of the reason was due to competitive pricing and their strong relationship with Humbert (Airbus COO). The 330 has a significant cargo advantage ofer the 764; that fact played a role in the decision-making process.
I mean, for the right price I’ll fight a lion. - Mike Tyson
 
DIA
Posts: 3053
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2001 2:24 pm

RE: NWA-worst Fleet In Industry

Sat Aug 04, 2001 4:43 am

I like the fact they are still using "classics." They're built to last way past what we think of as "old aircraft." Look at DC-3s. . .still going strong.

Good for you Northwest.
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
SESGDL
Posts: 2622
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:25 am

RE: NWA-worst Fleet In Industry

Sat Aug 04, 2001 5:25 am

NWA does have the oldest fleet, but we won't ever see DC-9's or MD-80's after CO, DL, and AA change to the 4 types fleets. I would love to see DC-9's 20 years from now! I wouldn't wanna fly on a 50 YEAR OLD PLANE, but i'd ove to see it! Too bad they got rid of their MD-80s though!
 
OO-VEG
Posts: 1231
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2000 5:31 pm

RE: NWA-worst Fleet In Industry

Sat Aug 04, 2001 5:52 am

Please come on.
OLD is not necessarilt BAD. If Northwest maintain their aircraft well there is nothing to fear about. Each aircraft gets its D-check and I am more afraid of flying a 5year old MD-90 which is owned by a company who doesn't care about maintenance than flying on a well maintained DC-9 which is 25 years old.
 
Guest

RE: NWA-worst Fleet In Industry

Sat Aug 04, 2001 7:07 am

The DC9-10/20/30/40/50/80/90/95(717) make you WANT TO FLY. You get off and three days later, you wanna get back on it and just go. Douglas has built fine flying machines until the DC10 which messed them up badly. As for NWA. Their planes are Fully Maintained and cared for, and if you were really smart. You would find that Widebodies are USELESS. For 40 years. DC3/4/6/7/8/9 ruled the skies along with B707/727/737 and nobody has had a problem. Why does everybody complain about the DC10 being replaced by the 757-300. To me, That is a good thing.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 3619
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

RE: NWA-worst Fleet In Industry

Sat Aug 04, 2001 11:53 am

To be fair, NW is upgrading its fleet with a few more 747-400's, more A320/A319, 35 new A330's to replace
the DC10 fleet, and more CRJ's but this is a stupid fleet arrangement and a costly one too.

NW should either go all Airbus with the 747-400 or it
should have gone all Boeing long ago. The A320's
were acquired at favorable rates and at a time when
Boeing did not have narrowbodies other than the 757
that could accomodate transcons.

NW is a crap airline, with a lousy product, and does
not deserve to code share with Continental but it is
working hard at meeting customer service needs and
with a new fleet, it will do well. The carrier is finally
fiscally responsible and has a decent franchise. It is
by far though among the worst US airlines.

ContinentalEWR
 
TimMSP
Posts: 216
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2001 11:35 am

RE: NWA-worst Fleet In Industry

Sat Aug 04, 2001 12:26 pm

That's odd. I feel the same way about CO as COEWR feels about NW.

I've heard that CO is going to an all ERJ fleet and become an even more insignificant carrier than they currently are.
 
Guest

RE: NWA-worst Fleet In Industry

Sat Aug 04, 2001 12:51 pm

ContinentalEWR,

NW is the only reason CO is still around now.
 
Notar520AC
Posts: 1517
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2001 6:53 am

RE: NWA-worst Fleet In Industry

Sat Aug 04, 2001 1:49 pm

Northwest has one of the oldest/newest fleets in the world, and I like to go on the oldies! If you hate their fleet so much go design your own. An old fleet also means the airline has experience since they've been through it all, and have had time to iron out the bugs in their operartions. Maybe they're not the best, but experience is the key to sucsess. Just watch, they'll make their winning move someday.
BMW - The Ultimate Driving Machine
 
airlinelover
Posts: 5287
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2001 8:03 am

RE: NWA-worst Fleet In Industry

Sat Aug 04, 2001 2:06 pm

On the contrary to what Airbus_330_340 said, I say NWA has the BEST fleet. And agreeing with Timmsp, I think CO has the WORST fleet. Also agreeing with NW-Elite, if NWA wasn't here, CO would be GONE. I think you anti-NWA folks just like getting put in your places... Big grin

Chris
Lets do some sexy math. We add you, subtract your clothes, divide your legs and multiply
 
airbus_330_340
Posts: 154
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2001 11:56 am

RE: NWA-worst Fleet In Industry

Sat Aug 04, 2001 3:17 pm

I actually like the DC-10s that Northwest flies (infact i always fly on them if I have a choice) but I am saying that they have the worst fleet in the industry because they (DC-10s) cause so many delays on domestic flights. My reasoning behind this also comes from the fact that they will effectively be discontinuing Domestic Widebody Service. On flights over four hours (such as NWA's flights to the west coast) I prefer widebodies or even the semi-widebody 762/3/4 and since NWA has ordered the 180foot long narrowbody 753 there will be no widebodies flying domestically. NWA should cancel their order for 753s and order A332s for domestic service(they are essentially the same as a DC-10) and keep the A333s for Atlantic flights. One thing I would dread is flying to Hawaii onboard a cramped narrow 753!!
 
airbus_330_340
Posts: 154
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2001 11:56 am

RE: NWA-worst Fleet In Industry

Wed Aug 15, 2001 2:48 pm

No one wants to fly on a cramped 753 for over four hours!
 
fjnovak1
Posts: 574
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2000 2:23 am

RE: NWA-worst Fleet In Industry

Wed Aug 15, 2001 3:46 pm

Actually, IMO both NW and CO are great airlines, and they are learning from one another about how to run a great airline. Continental has the benefits of streamlined fleet operations to go along with a strong route structure to Europe fueled mostly by their selection of smaller 757ER and 762ER aircraft for the bulk of their routes there they are able to offer destinations not served at all by any other US carrier. It also provides for great routes deep into South America, with no necessary connections. Northwest, probably realizing those benefits, decided that they too would place an order for some 757-200ERs (which they did alongside the 753 order). Now, Northwest is in a good position to contemplate offering service to places like Rome, Lisbon, Glasgow, Birmingham, Copenhagen, Brussels, Barcelona, and other places with the 757ER that can't be profitable with a DC-10 or an A330. The 757ER will also take them down to South America to destinations they don't currently serve. In turn, there are things the CO has done that appear to be taken from the NW book, like retrofit the interiors of the oldest 737-300s that they operate (ex Frontier planes) with new interiors and bigger overhead bins. The meal service on CO and NW is almost identical as well I have found. So, I think both airlines have a bright future and their working together seems to benefit both carriers.

For the record, I live near Detroit, but I like BOTH Continental and Northwest. I have flown both in 2001 and find CO to be excellent and NW to be fairly good and most importantly improving.
Go Blue!!

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