jhsusman
Topic Author
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2015 10:06 pm

Starting A New U.S. Carrier: Where Would You Locate / Fleet Dynamics

Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:06 pm

If you could start a brand new airline with a sizable fleet from day one (say 100 planes), where would you locate your hub(s) in the U.S. and what would your fleet look like? What routes would you focus on? You must assume that existing infrastructure exists (with the exception of incremental gate capacity needed) and that competition from other carriers is the same as current levels.
 
cpr05
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2017 10:44 pm

Re: Starting A New U.S. Carrier: Where Would You Locate / Fleet Dynamics

Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:07 pm

Would choose RDU Or RIC As hub airport. Fleet. MAX-8 And CS-100
Routes such RDU-MCO RIC-LAX High capacity High yield routes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
User avatar
PatrickZ80
Posts: 1716
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:33 am

Re: Starting A New U.S. Carrier: Where Would You Locate / Fleet Dynamics

Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:33 pm

Of course this totally depends on the type of airline you want to start. For each type of airline you'd make different decisions.
 
ScottB
Posts: 5816
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

Re: Starting A New U.S. Carrier: Where Would You Locate / Fleet Dynamics

Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:49 pm

jhsusman wrote:
If you could start a brand new airline with a sizable fleet from day one (say 100 planes), where would you locate your hub(s) in the U.S. and what would your fleet look like?


In all honesty, you wouldn't do it that way for several reasons. Dumping that much capacity into the market in a short time would be virtually impossible to fill profitably -- you're basically talking about an airline the size of NK. Logistically, it'd be nearly impossible to train all the necessary employees (pilots, flight attendants, mechanics, customer service, etc.) in a short time with the training staff which would be appropriate for an airline that size. And there are few airports in the U.S. with enough unused terminal capacity for a start-up to begin service with dozens of daily flights.
 
User avatar
flymco753
Posts: 1695
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2016 2:09 am

Re: Starting A New U.S. Carrier: Where Would You Locate / Fleet Dynamics

Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:52 pm

In one of my aviation classes we had to create our own airlines and figure out the economics to compete with other students and I really liked the airline I made up for that scenario. In the beginning I found a few used E190 airplanes and focused on running SFB/SRQ/PBI-DTW, SFB/PBI-GRR and SFB-TVC seasonally, figured I'd only need 1 gate or hardstand at DTW, GRR, TVC, SFB and PBI for RON's and a CUTE for SRQ. Eventually I expanded service from DTW-BNA, BHM, and PVD, than SFB to BHM and PVD to bridge aircraft. When it was all said and done my plans had 25 A321's and 10 E190's and I shifted my SFB ops to MCO, my SRQ ops to TPA, my PBI ops to FLL, and my PVD ops to MHT. The use of secondary airports to start was what I though would work the best. I was the #2 airline in the class and if we compared it to a real world scenario the airline would probably not last due to competition strictly against DL.
Whether you're here on business, returning home, or visiting our world class attractions, welcome to Orlando and Central Florida...
 
UpNAWAy
Posts: 78
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2016 12:42 pm

Re: Starting A New U.S. Carrier: Where Would You Locate / Fleet Dynamics

Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:04 pm

You would have to try and find some undeserved cities that could become hubs? Not sure any really exist. Maybe I would do something like CMH in the east and COS in the west? Or maybe GSO, AUS, OAK?
 
TWFlyGuy
Posts: 96
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:10 pm

Re: Starting A New U.S. Carrier: Where Would You Locate / Fleet Dynamics

Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:07 pm

The first question really is, what markets are underserved? Then as you narrow down that opportunity, you have to figure out which of those remaining markets could sustain a shock like a rise in oil prices and still have enough demand to sustain the service. In the age of cheap oil the US had hubs in CVG, CLE, MEM, CMH, PIT & STL (I may have missed some micro hubs as well). So maybe those are a good start. I excluded BNA and RDU given the amount of service they have re-gained since hub closure. I'm really just not sure there's enough out there.
 
Bald1983
Posts: 345
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:04 pm

Re: Starting A New U.S. Carrier: Where Would You Locate / Fleet Dynamics

Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:09 pm

My idea for a start up is an operation called "Pipe Dream Air." It would only fly A-380's. Complimentary gourmet food, the best seats, flying all over. Instead of a fare schedule, I would simply put a tip jar at the door way of each plane and the passengers could drop in what ever fare they thought fair. IN reality, almost all startups crashed and burned financially. So, I would not start up an airline.
 
skystar767
Posts: 79
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2013 8:11 pm

Re: Starting A New U.S. Carrier: Where Would You Locate / Fleet Dynamics

Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:10 pm

Starting a new airline in the USA that size would never ever happened. The major 3 would never allow it to happen. Remember JetBlue lol no one saw this going anywhere and look at the out come of jb. American was busy fighting with delta at jfk when jb started so AA and DL paid them any mind by the time they did it was too late.
 
skystar767
Posts: 79
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2013 8:11 pm

Re: Starting A New U.S. Carrier: Where Would You Locate / Fleet Dynamics

Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:11 pm

Starting a new airline in the USA that size would never ever happened. The major 3 would never allow it to happen. Remember JetBlue lol no one saw this going anywhere and look at the out come of jb. American was busy fighting with delta at jfk when jb started so AA and DL paid them any mind by the time they did it was too late.
 
toltommy
Posts: 2621
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2003 9:04 am

Re: Starting A New U.S. Carrier: Where Would You Locate / Fleet Dynamics

Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:17 pm

I wouldn't build a hub. Period. I would look for a city that is not a hub, preferably has never been one, in a growth market. SAT or AUS come to mind. Identify 5 or 6 unserved or underserved markets from those cities. Build it out, then use one of thkse 5 or 6 cities as my next focus, and grow organically from there. I would likely use a 737 or C Series aircraft for scalability. I would not go Airbus because of the economics of the 319.
A300/A310/A319/A320/A321/A332/A333/707/712/727/732/733/734/735/738/739/752/753/762/763/764/772/789/DC8/DC9-10/30/40/50/MD81/83/87/88/90/L1011-/250/500/CRJ200/440/700/900/EMB135/140/145/170/175/190/328Jet/F70/SF3/BE1/J31
 
Italianflyer
Posts: 575
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:06 pm

Re: Starting A New U.S. Carrier: Where Would You Locate / Fleet Dynamics

Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:26 pm

IMHO the only space for a start up is in the area called 'air taxis' back in the old days. There are communities that need air feed to larger hubs due to geographic/topographic factors. There are also larger cities with commercial ties that are potentially lucrative but can not justify a 50 seat RJ.
Southern Air Express & Cape Air are moving in the first category and OneJet in the second.

Then there is the idea of cramming 830 seats in an A380 and running it from EWR to SFB for $39 plus ad ons LOL
 
drdisque
Posts: 439
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:57 am

Re: Starting A New U.S. Carrier: Where Would You Locate / Fleet Dynamics

Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:36 pm

flymco753 wrote:
In one of my aviation classes we had to create our own airlines and figure out the economics to compete with other students and I really liked the airline I made up for that scenario. In the beginning I found a few used E190 airplanes and focused on running SFB/SRQ/PBI-DTW, SFB/PBI-GRR and SFB-TVC seasonally, figured I'd only need 1 gate or hardstand at DTW, GRR, TVC, SFB and PBI for RON's and a CUTE for SRQ. Eventually I expanded service from DTW-BNA, BHM, and PVD, than SFB to BHM and PVD to bridge aircraft. When it was all said and done my plans had 25 A321's and 10 E190's and I shifted my SFB ops to MCO, my SRQ ops to TPA, my PBI ops to FLL, and my PVD ops to MHT. The use of secondary airports to start was what I though would work the best. I was the #2 airline in the class and if we compared it to a real world scenario the airline would probably not last due to competition strictly against DL.


I would actually have done a very similar thing but exclusively use a large fleet of CRJ-1000's purchased at the end of the run for very cheap.

Also, did you use LCC or ULCC economics?

I think a ULCC using the CRJ-1000 on routes that are currently a tad too thin for ULCC's could be viable. The CRJ-1000 has tremendous CASM for an aircraft its size in an all Y configuration.
 
User avatar
flymco753
Posts: 1695
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2016 2:09 am

Re: Starting A New U.S. Carrier: Where Would You Locate / Fleet Dynamics

Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:50 pm

drdisque wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
In one of my aviation classes we had to create our own airlines and figure out the economics to compete with other students and I really liked the airline I made up for that scenario. In the beginning I found a few used E190 airplanes and focused on running SFB/SRQ/PBI-DTW, SFB/PBI-GRR and SFB-TVC seasonally, figured I'd only need 1 gate or hardstand at DTW, GRR, TVC, SFB and PBI for RON's and a CUTE for SRQ. Eventually I expanded service from DTW-BNA, BHM, and PVD, than SFB to BHM and PVD to bridge aircraft. When it was all said and done my plans had 25 A321's and 10 E190's and I shifted my SFB ops to MCO, my SRQ ops to TPA, my PBI ops to FLL, and my PVD ops to MHT. The use of secondary airports to start was what I though would work the best. I was the #2 airline in the class and if we compared it to a real world scenario the airline would probably not last due to competition strictly against DL.


I would actually have done a very similar thing but exclusively use a large fleet of CRJ-1000's purchased at the end of the run for very cheap.

Also, did you use LCC or ULCC economics?

I think a ULCC using the CRJ-1000 on routes that are currently a tad too thin for ULCC's could be viable. The CRJ-1000 has tremendous CASM for an aircraft its size in an all Y configuration.
I had it as just a regular LCC, all seats were Y so it’s a good CASM. I truly wonder if this would work since the economics of the industry have changed in just 2 years.
Whether you're here on business, returning home, or visiting our world class attractions, welcome to Orlando and Central Florida...
 
User avatar
jnev3289
Posts: 587
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:45 am

Re: Starting A New U.S. Carrier: Where Would You Locate / Fleet Dynamics

Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:14 pm

I would do a Porter-like operation out of BWI, but with ATR-72's instead. Plenty of space in their commuter terminal and the ATR is so economical to operate. Theoretically WN wouldn't pay too much attention at first because they have their own loyal customer base in Baltimore, and even if they did, the economics of an ATR fleet would allow us to weather a price war on limited routes.
I would hit secondary airports that the bigger jets can't get into or would be limited at times, and gain market traction in these areas. There are plenty of smaller airports in the NE that could support a ATR to Washington DC area and then even self-connect on a WN flight if they wanted. Maybe eventually we would accept an offer to fly on behalf of other airlines or even WN!
 
airbazar
Posts: 8017
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: Starting A New U.S. Carrier: Where Would You Locate / Fleet Dynamics

Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:49 pm

jnev3289 wrote:
There are plenty of smaller airports in the NE that could support a ATR to Washington DC area and then even self-connect on a WN flight if they wanted. Maybe eventually we would accept an offer to fly on behalf of other airlines or even WN!

Good idea but there's a reason why such service doesn't exist: NIMBY's don't allow it.
Once upon a time Hanscom Field (BED), outside of Boston had just that and the local residents forced it to stop.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2014/06/05/ ... html?pic=4
I flew on it twice. It was cheap, hassle free, and extremely convenient.
 
klm617
Posts: 1785
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Starting A New U.S. Carrier: Where Would You Locate / Fleet Dynamics

Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:15 pm

I am going to Use MCI pretty much the last big unused airport for a hub. I would say DET would be my first choice with an F70 size aircraft but the airport could never handle an airline of a 100 planes where MCI could. Also MCI hasn't been invaded by the low cost carriers yet so there is a lot less competition there.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
BreezyIAH
Posts: 44
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:45 pm

Re: Starting A New U.S. Carrier: Where Would You Locate / Fleet Dynamics

Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:16 pm

flymco753 wrote:
In one of my aviation classes we had to create our own airlines and figure out the economics to compete with other students and I really liked the airline I made up for that scenario. In the beginning I found a few used E190 airplanes and focused on running SFB/SRQ/PBI-DTW, SFB/PBI-GRR and SFB-TVC seasonally, figured I'd only need 1 gate or hardstand at DTW, GRR, TVC, SFB and PBI for RON's and a CUTE for SRQ. Eventually I expanded service from DTW-BNA, BHM, and PVD, than SFB to BHM and PVD to bridge aircraft. When it was all said and done my plans had 25 A321's and 10 E190's and I shifted my SFB ops to MCO, my SRQ ops to TPA, my PBI ops to FLL, and my PVD ops to MHT. The use of secondary airports to start was what I though would work the best. I was the #2 airline in the class and if we compared it to a real world scenario the airline would probably not last due to competition strictly against DL.

Where was this class? I do it on my own just as a hobby and for fun!
 
User avatar
flymco753
Posts: 1695
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2016 2:09 am

Re: Starting A New U.S. Carrier: Where Would You Locate / Fleet Dynamics

Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:35 pm

BreezyIAH wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
In one of my aviation classes we had to create our own airlines and figure out the economics to compete with other students and I really liked the airline I made up for that scenario. In the beginning I found a few used E190 airplanes and focused on running SFB/SRQ/PBI-DTW, SFB/PBI-GRR and SFB-TVC seasonally, figured I'd only need 1 gate or hardstand at DTW, GRR, TVC, SFB and PBI for RON's and a CUTE for SRQ. Eventually I expanded service from DTW-BNA, BHM, and PVD, than SFB to BHM and PVD to bridge aircraft. When it was all said and done my plans had 25 A321's and 10 E190's and I shifted my SFB ops to MCO, my SRQ ops to TPA, my PBI ops to FLL, and my PVD ops to MHT. The use of secondary airports to start was what I though would work the best. I was the #2 airline in the class and if we compared it to a real world scenario the airline would probably not last due to competition strictly against DL.

Where was this class? I do it on my own just as a hobby and for fun!
It was a class for my degree, I still do it for fun outside of school too! Right now I'm up to 42 A321's and 15 E190's, I have 2 hubs at TPA and DTW, next stop is SAN...
Whether you're here on business, returning home, or visiting our world class attractions, welcome to Orlando and Central Florida...
 
User avatar
TWA772LR
Posts: 5285
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:12 am

Re: Starting A New U.S. Carrier: Where Would You Locate / Fleet Dynamics

Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:42 pm

I'd create a feeder airline with CRJ-700's for WN and call it Heartland. The intention would be to fly to smaller cities Southwest has either pulled out of or can't service because the 737-700 is too big for they frequency they want. The livery would be identical to the WN livery except with "Heartland" in the same logotype.

Leaving reality even further, I'd get 10 Space Ship Two's and use them out of EFD (which is trying to be a spaceport) and actually use them to connect Houston to other big oil centers around the world instead of joy rides for Kim Kardashian and the like.

For down-to-Earth reality, I'd go for 60 CS100/300's, 25 797's, and 15 788's to still fly out of EFD and target long/thin domestic and intl routes not currently served by UA out of IAH, or AA out of DFW, from AUS. I'd then start to make a presence in SJC with the same concept, and then partner with WN to cover the rest of the US domestically and form a symbiotic relationship with them.
"It's not getting to the land of the nonrev that's the problem, it's getting back." ~~Captain Hector Barbossa
The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and don't necessarily reflect those of my employer.
 
BreezyIAH
Posts: 44
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:45 pm

Re: Starting A New U.S. Carrier: Where Would You Locate / Fleet Dynamics

Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:43 pm

flymco753 wrote:
BreezyIAH wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
In one of my aviation classes we had to create our own airlines and figure out the economics to compete with other students and I really liked the airline I made up for that scenario. In the beginning I found a few used E190 airplanes and focused on running SFB/SRQ/PBI-DTW, SFB/PBI-GRR and SFB-TVC seasonally, figured I'd only need 1 gate or hardstand at DTW, GRR, TVC, SFB and PBI for RON's and a CUTE for SRQ. Eventually I expanded service from DTW-BNA, BHM, and PVD, than SFB to BHM and PVD to bridge aircraft. When it was all said and done my plans had 25 A321's and 10 E190's and I shifted my SFB ops to MCO, my SRQ ops to TPA, my PBI ops to FLL, and my PVD ops to MHT. The use of secondary airports to start was what I though would work the best. I was the #2 airline in the class and if we compared it to a real world scenario the airline would probably not last due to competition strictly against DL.

Where was this class? I do it on my own just as a hobby and for fun!
It was a class for my degree, I still do it for fun outside of school too! Right now I'm up to 42 A321's and 15 E190's, I have 2 hubs at TPA and DTW, next stop is SAN...


At Embry-Riddle?
 
User avatar
flymco753
Posts: 1695
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2016 2:09 am

Re: Starting A New U.S. Carrier: Where Would You Locate / Fleet Dynamics

Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:02 am

BreezyIAH wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
BreezyIAH wrote:
Where was this class? I do it on my own just as a hobby and for fun!
It was a class for my degree, I still do it for fun outside of school too! Right now I'm up to 42 A321's and 15 E190's, I have 2 hubs at TPA and DTW, next stop is SAN...


At Embry-Riddle?
Eastern Michigan.
Whether you're here on business, returning home, or visiting our world class attractions, welcome to Orlando and Central Florida...
 
BreezyIAH
Posts: 44
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:45 pm

Re: Starting A New U.S. Carrier: Where Would You Locate / Fleet Dynamics

Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:15 am

Nice...would love to compare projects!
 
User avatar
PatrickZ80
Posts: 1716
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:33 am

Re: Starting A New U.S. Carrier: Where Would You Locate / Fleet Dynamics

Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:49 am

flymco753 wrote:
In one of my aviation classes we had to create our own airlines and figure out the economics to compete with other students and I really liked the airline I made up for that scenario. In the beginning I found a few used E190 airplanes and focused on running SFB/SRQ/PBI-DTW, SFB/PBI-GRR and SFB-TVC seasonally, figured I'd only need 1 gate or hardstand at DTW, GRR, TVC, SFB and PBI for RON's and a CUTE for SRQ. Eventually I expanded service from DTW-BNA, BHM, and PVD, than SFB to BHM and PVD to bridge aircraft. When it was all said and done my plans had 25 A321's and 10 E190's and I shifted my SFB ops to MCO, my SRQ ops to TPA, my PBI ops to FLL, and my PVD ops to MHT. The use of secondary airports to start was what I though would work the best. I was the #2 airline in the class and if we compared it to a real world scenario the airline would probably not last due to competition strictly against DL.


I would have done something similar, except that I would never have made the switch to the large hubs. These secondary airports work in the startup phase, why wouldn't they work later on?
 
airzona11
Posts: 797
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:44 am

Re: Starting A New U.S. Carrier: Where Would You Locate / Fleet Dynamics

Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:31 am

Using 787s, with a J/PY/Y layout similar to maybe AC (decent sized Premium) or LOT (smaller premium cabin), flying for WN, long-haul international. Throw a JV in with EasyJet/Ryanair/etc any of those.

LAX/SAN/OAK/LAS/PHX/DEN/AUS/ATL/BWI - Those airports have demand and lots of WN FFs.

Questionable if MDW/HOU/DAL would work airport constraint wise.
 
RamblinMan
Posts: 829
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 3:57 pm

Re: Starting A New U.S. Carrier: Where Would You Locate / Fleet Dynamics

Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:42 pm

Primary connecting hub at SJU concentrating on midsize USA cities to South America with a mix of CS300 and A321 neo lr. Later add some West Africa destinations within 321 range, and then add some 332s to serve Europe and further into Africa, and focus on connecting Europe-secondary S American markets. Fill the extra capacity with cheap beach packages to Puerto Rico.

At first with the 321s and C-series, I would configure it as all-economy with a few rows of 4-across premium seats (a-la NK "Big Front Seat"), some rows of 32'' pitch behind that, and the back sections at 29-30'' pitch. The seats at the back wouldn't cost anything to reserve, the extra-legroom rows and the premium seats would be available at booking or check in for a fee. I'd add a proper business class on the 332s along with the premium economy sections.

Service would be largely ULCC-style. Water, coffee, pretzels for free. Charge for sodas, alcohol, snack boxes, and hot meals on longer flights. Small carryon for free, upcharge for a larger one.
 
Buffalomatt1027
Posts: 54
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:02 am

Re: Starting A New U.S. Carrier: Where Would You Locate / Fleet Dynamics

Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:23 pm

I would go with a medium size airport as the hub with 737 Max 8s at first with a more central location in the US.

Example: I live in Buffalo, NY and BNIA / 8,900 ft Runway so mostly any plane can take off from here. If you make it a "hub" you would be funneling passengers to your airport, and would get cheap runway landing fees and so on.

- Many major airports are a short flight away.
- International flights would be cheaper via BNIA
- 737 MAXs could make it to Europe

Its just an example ... but starting an airline at a major airport seems almost impossible with all the legacy carriers. Getting the large number of runway slots at a reasonable price would not be easy. A fleet of 100 aircraft like mentioned before would need a TON of slots. So while my example of BNIA is not realistic, finding a medium size airport is.

Southwest does it at Dallas love field.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos