vuelti24
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Replicating the Copa model in the Europe-South America market

Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:16 pm

Hello all,

I´m just wondering the possibility of an airline choosing an airport and create a hub wich works in similar ways than the Copa model in PTY, but connecting Europe with South America. Is it feasible? Which airport can suit this airline? And which aircraft/s?
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Replicating the Copa model in the Europe-South America market

Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:11 pm

That was the plan when Icelandair was taking over the management of TACV, only they didn't take Copa as an example but Icelandair. The idea is the same however, have a hub inbetween two continents. Icelandair has a hub in Iceland inbetween Europe and America, TACV has a hub on the Cape Verde islands inbetween Europe and South America. Only TACV has a very limited fleet, but they'll get some new 757s. Probably ex Icelandair as they're upgrading to newer aircraft themselves. The 757 would be the perfect aircraft for the job.
 
dredgy
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Re: Replicating the Copa model in the Europe-South America market

Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:10 am

Well I thought Copa had the right airport - Panama is pretty ideally located for flights EU to SA. Recife or Belem could work. I don’t think any airline on the other side of the Atlantic would be very good (Cape Verde for instance) as you’d have to operate wide body aircraft on low demand routes.

South America is a very poorly connected continent and getting from one end to the other can be a nightmare - the divide between the north and south is huge. To my knowledge there is no airport in South America that is connected to every other South American country (which isn’t a lot of countries). The closest thing is Miami, which connects to every country (plus French Guiana) in South America with the exception of Paraguay.

So if you manage to establish a hub let me know, so I don’t have to repeat my nightmare of a transit between Paramaribo and Buenos Aires again.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Replicating the Copa model in the Europe-South America market

Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:48 pm

dredgy wrote:
Well I thought Copa had the right airport - Panama is pretty ideally located for flights EU to SA. Recife or Belem could work. I don’t think any airline on the other side of the Atlantic would be very good (Cape Verde for instance) as you’d have to operate wide body aircraft on low demand routes.

South America is a very poorly connected continent and getting from one end to the other can be a nightmare - the divide between the north and south is huge. To my knowledge there is no airport in South America that is connected to every other South American country (which isn’t a lot of countries). The closest thing is Miami, which connects to every country (plus French Guiana) in South America with the exception of Paraguay.

So if you manage to establish a hub let me know, so I don’t have to repeat my nightmare of a transit between Paramaribo and Buenos Aires again.


The main divide is the Guianas (or Guayanas) (France, Suriname, and Guyana) and the rest of South America anyway. GEO, PBM, and CAY are just hard to fly into in general. Having a giant jungle (rainforest) between the Guianas and Brazil/Venezuela pretty much isolate it from rest of the continent.

As for Europe<->S. America, I would say between IB, UX, and TP, they already covered most of the cities. Secondary (or 3rd tier) cities in S. America in general are too small to support long-haul to begin with anyway (I'm thinking the like of COR/MDZ for Argentina, MAR for Venezuela, BAQ/BGA in Colombia, something like ANF in Chile, etc.).
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Replicating the Copa model in the Europe-South America market

Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:20 pm

dredgy wrote:
Well I thought Copa had the right airport - Panama is pretty ideally located for flights EU to SA. Recife or Belem could work. I don’t think any airline on the other side of the Atlantic would be very good (Cape Verde for instance) as you’d have to operate wide body aircraft on low demand routes.


Panama is way too far west to connect Europe to South America. It's inbetween North and South America, but Europe is a long way from Panama. From Europe to Panama you definitely need a wide body.

If you draw a straight line on the map from Europe to South America it almost always crosses the Cape Verde area. Besides it's close to a third continent, Africa. It's in a real good geographical location and except for the far south of South America the whole continent is within reach of a 757 from Cape Verde. Same goes for Europe. On the other hand, a 757 could barely make it from Panama to Europe. Spain and Portugal would just barely be within reach, but that's it.

Anyway, TACV is an airline to look out for the next few years. They'll be a key player on the Europe - South America route.
 
Jetty
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Re: Replicating the Copa model in the Europe-South America market

Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:19 pm

dredgy wrote:
Recife or Belem could work

KL and AF agree on Recife. In 2018 they'll both start flights to Recife in cooperation with GOL, specifically mentioning it's potential as hub.
 
vuelti24
Topic Author
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Re: Replicating the Copa model in the Europe-South America market

Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:37 pm

Hi guys,
Thanks for your responses. I was not aware of TACV as it`s an unheard airline south and west of Brazil. I agree that this airline has options to grow but they need the right aircraft and a bigger airport. With the 757 or the A321NEO LR they can´t reach Buenos Aires, Santiago and Lima, in example. The opposite problem occurs if an airline stabilishes in northeastern Brazil...with current MoM´s aircrafts, it´s impossible to go nonstop beyond Spain in Europe. Maybe the 797 with better range (+/- 4500NM) can solve this problem.
Another contender airline could be stabilished in Dakar...geographically, is more or less the same situation than Cabo Verde, but they have a bigger and brand new airport...
 
dredgy
Posts: 157
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Re: Replicating the Copa model in the Europe-South America market

Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:58 am

PatrickZ80 wrote:
dredgy wrote:
Well I thought Copa had the right airport - Panama is pretty ideally located for flights EU to SA. Recife or Belem could work. I don’t think any airline on the other side of the Atlantic would be very good (Cape Verde for instance) as you’d have to operate wide body aircraft on low demand routes.


Panama is way too far west to connect Europe to South America. It's inbetween North and South America, but Europe is a long way from Panama. From Europe to Panama you definitely need a wide body.

If you draw a straight line on the map from Europe to South America it almost always crosses the Cape Verde area. Besides it's close to a third continent, Africa. It's in a real good geographical location and except for the far south of South America the whole continent is within reach of a 757 from Cape Verde. Same goes for Europe. On the other hand, a 757 could barely make it from Panama to Europe. Spain and Portugal would just barely be within reach, but that's it.

Anyway, TACV is an airline to look out for the next few years. They'll be a key player on the Europe - South America route.


Absolutely you’ll need long haul aircraft on one side of the ocean. It makes more sense to run them from Europe (high demand from secondary european cities to on South American hub) rather than to lower demand secondary South American cities into a European or African hub.

But it’s a moot point - this theoretical airline doesn’t need to exist. South America is already very well connected to Europe. You can get to any major South American city (except Georgetown) from basically any European city with one stop thanks to the excellently positioned hub of Madrid. Need to reach secondary Brazilian cities? TAP has you covered out of LIS. Frankfurt and Paris are also well connected with Amsterdam bringing in the connection to Suriname.

In fact Europe is much more connected to South America than the continent is to itself. I think TAP has enormous potential to act as a hub between Asia and South America/Africa, which is where the real money will be.

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