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DIRECTFLT
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Current Scheduled technical / refueling stops

Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:59 am

I saw a video on youtube about the QF32 A380 incident in 2010. It said the flight was from Heathrow to Sydney, "with a refueling stop in Singapore."

Do any carriers now, have flights where the scheduled stop is only for fuel, with no passengers getting off or on?

Also, I have read that some carriers do have a technical stop scheduled to only let off passengers at that stop, but do not take on any new passengers. I thin that was LON-CPT-JNB...
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paullam
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Re: Current Scheduled technical / refueling stops

Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:14 am

The Ethiopian services to America making a fuel stop in Dublin come to minds. IIRC they don’t take any new passengers or cargo.
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grjplanes
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Re: Current Scheduled technical / refueling stops

Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:21 am

I guess it mostly depends on whether the airline have 5th freedom rights or similar to carry passengers between the other two destinations...for purely refueling and technical stops due to certain restrictions perhaps from departing airport or due to distance. For instance the westbound routings for ET from ADD to North America basically have tech-stop in DUB due to ADD's high altitude and the distance...for some destinations it's just that, while for others they did get 5th freedom, so why not use it if they can...Similar Air Austral's DZA to Paris flight just do quick tech-stop at NBO to refuel, because DZA's runway is too short to take full load.

In a case like some airlines did before Europe-JNB-CPT, it's about the fact that JNB-CPT sector is a domestic sector, so they won't have rights to carry pax on that sector alone...several airlines did operate like that many years ago, more recently TK IST-JNB-CPT and QR DOH-JNB-CPT a few years ago still...but most now have nonstop to CPT...both QR and TK though do JNB-DUR similarly now. Only airline still doing JNB-CPT as tag is SQ from SIN.
 
dstc47
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Re: Current Scheduled technical / refueling stops

Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:26 am

ET certainly have passenger traffic rights from DUB to LAX - and they frequently advertise their services and fares here. Flight timings are not especially convenient and EI once again serve LAX also.

Don't know about DUB to ADD but demand would not be high.
 
richcandy
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Re: Current Scheduled technical / refueling stops

Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:33 am

dstc47 wrote:
ET certainly have passenger traffic rights from DUB to LAX - and they frequently advertise their services and fares here. Flight timings are not especially convenient and EI once again serve LAX also.

Don't know about DUB to ADD but demand would not be high.


DUB-ADD might not be, but do actively market DUB-Africa via ADD?
 
LupineChemist
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Re: Current Scheduled technical / refueling stops

Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:38 am

The first one that comes to mind for me is BA's LCY service to JFK on the 318. It stops at SNN on the westbound for a tech stop and to use the US pre clearance facilities. They 'could' have traffic rights on this if they wanted, but it's strictly a tech stop.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Current Scheduled technical / refueling stops

Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:44 am

The fifth freedom rights is a standard right in all old bilateral agreements. Long distance flying was not possible without in the older days. So as long as it is not mentioned otherwise, I would always assume that fifth freedom rights apply.
 
Andy33
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Re: Current Scheduled technical / refueling stops

Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:45 am

The QF example is a mistake - the plane was certainly refuelled in Singapore, but this was a traffic stop as well - passengers left and joined the flight at SIN as QF has full traffic rights between Singapore and the UK, and obviously between Australia and Singapore. They will resume doing this soon, as part of the service rearrangements brought about with the non-stop PER-LHR. In the meantime BA do exactly the same thing daily.

On the topic of BA, the LCY-JFK service stops at SNN to refuel as it is impossible for an A318 to take off from LCY with enough fuel to cross the Atlantic due to the short runway. They take advantage of the stop to pass the passengers through US preclearance at SNN, but no tickets are sold for the short journeys LCY to SNN or SNN to JFK. There is no stop eastbound as JFK's runways are more than long enough to permit a fully-fuelled takeoff.
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Current Scheduled technical / refueling stops

Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:27 pm

Yes, I love how people went running off to yak about stops by Ethiopian etc. and never stopped to think that the entire premise was wrong in the first place! :lol: Ahh... a.net... :biggrin:
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
Gemuser
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Re: Current Scheduled technical / refueling stops

Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:54 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
The fifth freedom rights is a standard right in all old bilateral agreements. Long distance flying was not possible without in the older days. So as long as it is not mentioned otherwise, I would always assume that fifth freedom rights apply.

I hardly think 5th freedom could be called a "standard" provision of bi-laterals, old or new! Certainly they existed fairly widely but were not given away for free, the USA was very sticky about them as was Australia, UK & Japan, as examples.
To give one example, because I followed some of it in real time, QF from Australia to Europe. QF originally had no 5th freedom rights India- Europe Over time this changed and limited right were granted by India & eventually full rights. Air India received similar rights from Australia. AFAIK AI still has full 5th freedom rights from Australia & AI could be on SYD-AKL, SYD-SCL or SYD-LAX tomorrow [from the Australian point of view]. On the other hand QF never gained 5th freedom rights between the cities it served in Europe or between most of them and LHR.
So I certainly wouldn't call them standard, they depended very much on the economic, political & geographic conditions in each case.

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FSDan
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Re: Current Scheduled technical / refueling stops

Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:10 pm

Yep, ET uses DUB strictly as a tech stop for the westbound ADD-IAD and soon the ADD-ORD flights, but has traffic rights on DUB-LAX. Besides the ET westbound flights and BA's LCY-JFK with a stop for fuel and preclearance in SNN, I don't think there are any other true tech stops to/from the U.S. Also, QF has their unique LAX-JFK tag where they don't have local rights but can connect passengers from BNE, SYD, and MEL, but that's not really a tech stop.

Then there are the 5th freedom routes: SFO-HKG on SQ, LAX-DUB on ET, LAX-LHR on NZ, LAX-NRT on SQ, LAX-ICN on SQ, IAH-MAN on SQ, IAD-ACC on SA, IAD-DKR on SA, EWR-LHR on AI, EWR-ATH on EK, JFK-YVR on CX, JFK-YVR on PR, JFK-FRA on SQ, and JFK-MXP on EK. I'm not sure if AF and BF on LAX/SFO-PPT and TN on LAX-CDG count as 5th freedom, but I don't think so as French Polynesia is a territory of France...

I appologize for the very U.S.-centric list, but that's my area of expertise.
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Current Scheduled technical / refueling stops

Fri Feb 02, 2018 5:03 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
I saw a video on youtube about the QF32 A380 incident in 2010. It said the flight was from Heathrow to Sydney, "with a refueling stop in Singapore."

Do any carriers now, have flights where the scheduled stop is only for fuel, with no passengers getting off or on?

Also, I have read that some carriers do have a technical stop scheduled to only let off passengers at that stop, but do not take on any new passengers. I thin that was LON-CPT-JNB...


I found this "Freedoms of the Air" in Wikipedia after learning here about Freedom rights:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedoms_of_the_air
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BNAOWB
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Re: Current Scheduled technical / refueling stops

Fri Feb 02, 2018 5:26 am

Until several years ago, PR's westbound flights from LAX/SFO to MNL had fuel stops at GUM (which obviously lacked traffic rights from LAX/SFO).
 
BENAir01
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Re: Current Scheduled technical / refueling stops

Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:06 pm

KU’s KWI-SNN-JFK isn’t tecgnically just a fuel stop, as passengers clear customs, and the plane could make the flight nonstop, but no passengers or cargo can get on or off so I guess it could count.
There are definitely some others other than the BA LCY-SNN-JFK and ET ADD-DUB-IAD/YYZ/ORD but i cant think of any off the top of my head.
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opticalilyushin
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Re: Current Scheduled technical / refueling stops

Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:21 pm

dstc47 wrote:
ET certainly have passenger traffic rights from DUB to LAX - and they frequently advertise their services and fares here. Flight timings are not especially convenient and EI once again serve LAX also.

Don't know about DUB to ADD but demand would not be high.


Ethiopian do very well on feeding passengers from Dublin to other locations, South Africa is particularly popular for them. ET is the only 'full service' African airline to fly to Ireland.
 
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Channex757
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Re: Current Scheduled technical / refueling stops

Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:38 am

If you were so inclined, doing some research into operations such as BOAC and the Empire Routes as well as Pan Am's Clipper services would probably turn up some interesting sectors with traffic rights that still exist.

IIIRC Air India has several 5th Freedoms still extant from the (if memory serves) Maharajah services with Constellations and turbojet 707s. Until recently Kuwait Airways had full rights to fly LHR-JFK even during the Bermuda 2 restrictions. Again, back from the days when flights needed fuel en route.

British Caledonian had some interesting stops, to South America and into Africa.
 
dfwjim1
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Re: Current Scheduled technical / refueling stops

Sat Feb 03, 2018 3:34 am

How about cargo operations through Anchorage, Alaska? Are there cargo aircraft from Asia that land at ANC to only pick up fuel and change crews on their way to the Americas?
 
DTWLAX
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Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 4:19 pm

Re: Current Scheduled technical / refueling stops

Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:10 am

Pune - Bucharest - Frankfurt for LH which is operated by a Privatair B737.
FRA-PNQ is a nonstop but the return requires a refueling stop in Romania

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