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flybynight
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Why does Emirates even serve alcohol to Dubai

Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:25 pm

It seems to be very hypocritical of Emirates to offer alcohol to flyers coming into Dubai if the could get into serious trouble.
A Brit was recently arrested after landing in Dubai.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6986998/how-brit-tourists-can-be-arrested-for-drinking-alcohol-on-flights-to-dubai/

I respect the laws of the country and ignorance of it is an not excuse. But tempting or even bating people is not fair either. Not to sound too American, but I'd be tempted to sue Emirates.
Last edited by SQ22 on Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Typo fixed
Heia Norge!
 
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airportugal310
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Re: WHy does Emirates even serve alcohol to Dubai

Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:28 pm

There has to be waaaaaaay more to this story than meets the eye
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smokeybandit
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Re: WHy does Emirates even serve alcohol to Dubai

Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:38 pm

Don't they need to serve alcohol to keep their #1 rating among American passengers?:)
 
FlyHappy
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Re: WHy does Emirates even serve alcohol to Dubai

Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:44 pm

airportugal310 wrote:
There has to be waaaaaaay more to this story than meets the eye


probably not much more than being in a dispute with the authorities there (invalid single use visa, entry not allowed), where she was probably too "assertive" and also foolishly admitted to having consumed wine on the flight. Bingo - "cause has been established".
Lets be frank - women aren't exactly looked upon with the highest regard in that area, and this woman probably pushed things a bit too far, not realizing that she didn't have that much to stand on.

back to the big picture - of course, it is breathlessly hypocritical that the ME3 serve and promote booze on their flights. for pax from more liberal cultures, the allure of shiny towers or big aircraft should never hide the fact that you are engaging with a culture and country that sees your own as corrupt, decadent and immoral. They will take your money, use your labor, sell you an image. But that doesn't change who they are or who you are.
Its your choice.

This story provides a bit more detail:

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/e ... 08756.html
 
Turnhouse1
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Re: WHy does Emirates even serve alcohol to Dubai

Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Something odd here as a lot of British Citizens will fly to Dubai and have had a glass of wine or beer complimentary on the flight provided by the local airline without getting arrested.

Agree that most likely situation is that she's been a bit gobby at the immigration official who has then thrown the book at her. FCO advice mentions an issue with UAE issuing 30 day visitor visa's on arrival, but if you leave and return within 30 days this can cause issues. Though my experience of border control staff worldwide is that the UK ones are the worst going, though as a British Citizen also the only ones I'm likely to say anything other than 'yes sir, no sir, three bags full sir' which does seem to expedite any border control process where you don't have an absolute right to tell them to get off.
 
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flybynight
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Re: WHy does Emirates even serve alcohol to Dubai

Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:01 pm

FlyHappy wrote:
airportugal310 wrote:
There has to be waaaaaaay more to this story than meets the eye


probably not much more than being in a dispute with the authorities there (invalid single use visa, entry not allowed), where she was probably too "assertive" and also foolishly admitted to having consumed wine on the flight. Bingo - "cause has been established".
Lets be frank - women aren't exactly looked upon with the highest regard in that area, and this woman probably pushed things a bit too far, not realizing that she didn't have that much to stand on.

back to the big picture - of course, it is breathlessly hypocritical that the ME3 serve and promote booze on their flights. for pax from more liberal cultures, the allure of shiny towers or big aircraft should never hide the fact that you are engaging with a culture and country that sees your own as corrupt, decadent and immoral. They will take your money, use your labor, sell you an image. But that doesn't change who they are or who you are.
Its your choice.

This story provides a bit more detail:

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/e ... 08756.html


I believe similar events have happend to males as well. But you're right, as a male you might have gotten a better chance of getting away with it. Sucks, but it is the way it is.

I'd have to personally be careful since I, ahem, like my drinks while flying!!
Heia Norge!
 
rbavfan
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Re: WHy does Emirates even serve alcohol to Dubai

Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:07 pm

smokeybandit wrote:
Don't they need to serve alcohol to keep their #1 rating among American passengers?:)


Or the european crowd that keeps making airlines land planes early due to someone drunk and unruly on the flight.

See how easy it is to make a rude assumption online now.
 
FlyHappy
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Re: WHy does Emirates even serve alcohol to Dubai

Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:10 pm

flybynight wrote:
I believe similar events have happend to males as well. But you're right, as a male you might have gotten a better chance of getting away with it. Sucks, but it is the way it is.


of course.
In no way am I suggesting that her gender is solely tied to the outcome.
In every corner of the world women are marginalized, including her progressive home countries (UK & Sweden), but the Gulf states have particularly odd dichotomy in terms of treatment of sexes....
 
FlyHappy
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Re: WHy does Emirates even serve alcohol to Dubai

Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:12 pm

rbavfan wrote:
smokeybandit wrote:
Don't they need to serve alcohol to keep their #1 rating among American passengers?:)


Or the european crowd that keeps making airlines land planes early due to someone drunk and unruly on the flight.

See how easy it is to make a rude assumption online now.


its a tongue-in-cheek reference to another thread where it's suggested that EK is #1 rated among US pax .
it's actually pretty funny if you got it. pretty sure not meant to be rude.
 
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Re: WHy does Emirates even serve alcohol to Dubai

Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:13 pm

I know, really???!!! Those rat scallions!!!!!
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george77300
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Re: WHy does Emirates even serve alcohol to Dubai

Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:19 pm

flybynight wrote:
It seems to be very hypocritical of Emirates to offer alcohol to flyers coming into Dubai if the could get into serious trouble.
A Brit was recently arrested after landing in Dubai.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6986998/how-brit-tourists-can-be-arrested-for-drinking-alcohol-on-flights-to-dubai/

I respect the laws of the country and ignorance of it is an not excuse. But tempting or even bating people is not fair either. Not to sound too American, but I'd be tempted to sue Emirates.


REPORTED AS INVALID VISA

That is the reason for the arrest not alcohol.
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klakzky123
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Re: WHy does Emirates even serve alcohol to Dubai

Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:22 pm

I think the problem is that Dubai's (and the UAE as a whole) public intoxication laws are really vague and make arbitrary enforcement very easy. Dubai's other relevant laws are the requirement to have a license (which you can get around by either bringing in alcohol, buying it at a duty free store in the airport, or buying it from a hotel or bar) and their ban on drinking in public. But the vagueness of public intoxication law is what allows this story to happen. But in general, its safe to assume that Dubai can be strict about that. The license law is pretty meaningless as most hotels and bars don't enforce that as long as you're clearly not a local.
 
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DDR
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Re: WHy does Emirates even serve alcohol to Dubai

Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:26 pm

I don't think they were too happy with her filming them without permission either.
 
FlyHappy
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Re: WHy does Emirates even serve alcohol to Dubai

Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:28 pm

george77300 wrote:

REPORTED AS INVALID VISA

That is the reason for the arrest not alcohol.


Incorrect.
the invalid visa was reason for denial of entry into the country.
the alcohol content of her blood (she was tested, ya know), is what justified her arrest and detention.
 
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scbriml
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Re: WHy does Emirates even serve alcohol to Dubai

Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:38 pm

There is way more to this 'story' than is being reported in The Sun.

I've lived and worked in Dubai, commuting every month between there and home. I've never had any problem with having consumed alcohol on the flight to Dubai (either EK or BA).

As to needing a licence to purchase alcohol, that is true if you have residency. However, as a visitor, you can buy a limited amount of alcohol when you arrive at DXB - there's a Duty Free shop selling alcohol immediately after immigration for goodness sake! Alcohol is freely available in hotels and clubs

Yes, if you're stupid enough to get smashed out of your head in public, or try and have sex on the beach, you will likely find yourself inside a room with bars (of the steel kind). Dubai receives millions of visitors every year and only a very small minority manage to be so stupid they get themselves arrested.

Dubai isn't Ibiza. Some people can't or won't accept that.
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Arion640
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Re: WHy does Emirates even serve alcohol to Dubai

Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:56 pm

george77300 wrote:
flybynight wrote:
It seems to be very hypocritical of Emirates to offer alcohol to flyers coming into Dubai if the could get into serious trouble.
A Brit was recently arrested after landing in Dubai.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6986998/how-brit-tourists-can-be-arrested-for-drinking-alcohol-on-flights-to-dubai/

I respect the laws of the country and ignorance of it is an not excuse. But tempting or even bating people is not fair either. Not to sound too American, but I'd be tempted to sue Emirates.


REPORTED AS INVALID VISA

That is the reason for the arrest not alcohol.


Very strange.

I’ve been to Dubai multiple times, never needed a Visa, drunk on the Emirates flight and drunk in the UAE in a hotel bar without a permit.
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flyingclrs727
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Re: WHy does Emirates even serve alcohol to Dubai

Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:57 pm

airportugal310 wrote:
There has to be waaaaaaay more to this story than meets the eye


Her one entry visa had already been used. The Dubai police were laying on as much as they could. She seems somewhat ditzy to travel to a country like the UAE without having all passports and visas in place before buying tickets. She said she had used that same via several times to enter the UAE. Then they asked her if she had had anything to drink in the flight. People should do their homework before traveling to certain countries.
 
NTLDaz
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Re: WHy does Emirates even serve alcohol to Dubai

Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:05 pm

I agree there is more to this. Went to Dubai in June and it was more liberal than I imagined. Heck Friday Brunches happen everywhere and are full of drunks. Don't behave like a fool in public and you're ok.

You are allowed to take 4 litres of spirits into the UAE. I bought 2 cases of beer at Dubai Duty Free.

My guess is she carried on deluxe when refused entry and they pulled out a rarely enforced law to teach her a lesson.
 
FlyHappy
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Re: WHy does Emirates even serve alcohol to Dubai

Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:09 pm

scbriml wrote:
There is way more to this 'story' than is being reported in The Sun.

I've lived and worked in Dubai, commuting every month between there and home. I've never had any problem with having consumed alcohol on the flight to Dubai (either EK or BA).


Have you ever been asked by an Emirati Immigration officer if you consumed alcohol on the plane? I'm guessing not; thus you were not already a target.

scbriml wrote:
Yes, if you're stupid enough to get smashed out of your head in public, or try and have sex on the beach, you will likely find yourself inside a room with bars (of the steel kind). Dubai receives millions of visitors every year and only a very small minority manage to be so stupid they get themselves arrested.


You imply that this woman was "so stupid" for getting herself arrested, only because millions of others (yourself included) have not.
I agree this woman should have known her visa was invalid; I think it **highly likely** that she spoke foolishly to the authorities (out of anger or maybe entitlement, who knows) when told she could not enter the country and would need to leave. I blame her for not being aware enough of UAE custom and law (she had been there before) that lying about the wine consumed would have been far, far smarter than telling the truth.

The question really is - should a society that criminalizes alcohol be in the business of promoting on flights to their own country?
despite your experiences, I think the answer is no, and not having been in the position of falling into a trap like this does not make it a "fair" trap, nor does it prove that those who do are stupid.
 
Galwayman
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Re: WHy does Emirates even serve alcohol to Dubai

Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:12 pm

Because EK is a global airline not a theocracy .... yawn
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: WHy does Emirates even serve alcohol to Dubai

Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:41 pm

I was reading the visa information from Dubai's tourist website. It says that visitor's visas are available at the at the airport for citizens of several countries including the UK. So if she had just applied for the visa before attempting to clear customs, she would have had no problems. I would never try to enter any country without making sure my passport has at least 6 months validity remaining from the end of my scheduled trip all the required visas are obtained. It seems some people do not have basic reading comprehension skills.


https://www.visitdubai.com/en/travel-pl ... nformation
 
c933103
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Re: WHy does Emirates even serve alcohol to Dubai

Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:49 pm

Well a law is only useful when you can arrest people based on it
 
FlyHappy
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Re: WHy does Emirates even serve alcohol to Dubai

Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:09 pm

c933103 wrote:
Well a law is only useful when you can arrest people based on it


good idea.
I propose that henceforth, EK cabin crew notate all pax who have consumed alcohol whilst onboard flights bound for Dubai. Upon disembarkation, a morals manifest shall be supplied to ground authorities, who will swiftly uphold local law, and detain & test identified offenders for presence of al-kuhl ("body eating spirit") . Then, they can be quickly whisked away, bypassing the Terminal's duty free alcohol points of sale (don't want any repeat offenders, do we) for trial.

This makes perfect sense and upholds the law.
Or maybe they could find a way to be consistent with their own values.
 
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enilria
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Re: WHy does Emirates even serve alcohol to Dubai

Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:19 pm

Forget the airline, DXB concessions are at least 50% duty free alcohol.
 
Armodeen
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Re: WHy does Emirates even serve alcohol to Dubai

Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:44 pm

* Arrives without a visa (note British passport holders are visa on arrival for the UAE, I presume from the article she is Swedish passport holder).
*Argues with the official and causes a scene
*Attempts to film the altercation - a really big no no.

Only after it kicks off are they interested in the alcohol. Seems she behaved like a typical entitled person who really didn’t think about where she was before kicking up fuss. That may work in the west, it definitely doesn’t in the gulf.

Of course jail time is excessively harsh but she gave them the excuse to lock her up instead of just deporting her.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: WHy does Emirates even serve alcohol to Dubai

Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:59 pm

Armodeen wrote:
* Arrives without a visa (note British passport holders are visa on arrival for the UAE, I presume from the article she is Swedish passport holder).
*Argues with the official and causes a scene
*Attempts to film the altercation - a really big no no.

Only after it kicks off are they interested in the alcohol. Seems she behaved like a typical entitled person who really didn’t think about where she was before kicking up fuss. That may work in the west, it definitely doesn’t in the gulf.

Of course jail time is excessively harsh but she gave them the excuse to lock her up instead of just deporting her.

That explains it.

Dubai offered alcohol over local protest as that is what was required to become a stop for Imperial airways. They have some pretty clever laws on where bars can and cannot be located to appease locals but also "stimulate" tourist travel.


Lightsaber
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waly777
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Re: WHy does Emirates even serve alcohol to Dubai

Sat Aug 11, 2018 12:19 am

Armodeen wrote:
* Arrives without a visa (note British passport holders are visa on arrival for the UAE, I presume from the article she is Swedish passport holder).
*Argues with the official and causes a scene
*Attempts to film the altercation - a really big no no.

Only after it kicks off are they interested in the alcohol. Seems she behaved like a typical entitled person who really didn’t think about where she was before kicking up fuss. That may work in the west, it definitely doesn’t in the gulf.

Of course jail time is excessively harsh but she gave them the excuse to lock her up instead of just deporting her.


Exactly @ the 3 points. She could have quietly gotten on the plane and gone back home to resolve the situation. Tons of people are sent back everyday.

Causing a scene and then trying to film it(there are laws against filming people without their permission) pissed off the wrong people and every technicality was then used against her.

Jail time is indeed too much but it pays to learn the customs and cultures of countries you visit.
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Super80Fan
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Re: WHy does Emirates even serve alcohol to Dubai

Sat Aug 11, 2018 12:21 am

Armodeen wrote:
* Arrives without a visa (note British passport holders are visa on arrival for the UAE, I presume from the article she is Swedish passport holder).
*Argues with the official and causes a scene
*Attempts to film the altercation - a really big no no.

Only after it kicks off are they interested in the alcohol. Seems she behaved like a typical entitled person who really didn’t think about where she was before kicking up fuss. That may work in the west, it definitely doesn’t in the gulf.

Of course jail time is excessively harsh but she gave them the excuse to lock her up instead of just deporting her.


This.
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adambrau
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Re: WHy does Emirates even serve alcohol to Dubai

Sat Aug 11, 2018 12:41 am

1) Isn't it the responsibility of the airline to make sure travel documents and visas are valid prior to passengers being issued a boarding pass? So on this point alone some EK rep screwed up and allowed the passenger to board with a used single entry visa. One strike against EK.

2) I am guessing the passenger might have communicated in a way to the immigration officer upon arrival to Dubai that annoyed him and then the alcohol question came out of nowhere. Given that the pax had already been to Dubai and probably had a few drinks (maybe on the first flight there) maybe in tourist designated areas, she saw no reason to lie. I mean one glass of wine on a multi hour flight wouldn't make most drinkers appear obviously drunk. There must have been some poor communication or vibe between the mom and the immigration official. But still someone at Gatwick should have realized her visa was invalid and told her to get one before flying, or if you can get on arrival to do that. So 75% responsibility to EK/Dubai here.

3) Are there signs onboard or does EK make announcements about non-residents without a permit to not drink on the plane? I mean EK certainly sell themselves as one of the world's great airlines and if I drank (I stopped due to the advice of my doctor) I would certainly have enjoyed several glasses of champagne. Is this rule widely publicized? Do FA's ask each pax (seems silly)? Given that EK connects many nationalities who, in theory might do a stop over in Dubai and probably drink, it just seems incredible that not more people going there know this or are advised. I don't know the answer so maybe someone who flies EK regularly would know? But if they catering to American, British, Asian, Australian, South American, European, pax etc this should never have happened to the poor mother and daughter. Creates a lot of bad PR for EK and Dubai. So again I see the result of this unfortunate event at least 50% on EK/Dubai's side.

I have only flown once on EK from HKG to BKK, years ago, and yes the soft product in the business cabin was miles ahead of what one might expect on United (obviously). But it was a short trip.

I am Global Services on United so I do fly every now and then. Here and there. And I don't drink. But what if I was with someone who did and, just like the daughter, got locked up at the airport. Hell no would I want to go to a place like this. I would hire the most capable attorneys, who in cases like this only charge a percentage of funds recovered (usually 33%) and go after the airline for lax enforcement of obviously strict laws and boarding her with a used single entry visa. Then the big money comes from emotional distress suffered by both pax. You sue EK in the United Kingdom and this is just the sort of story that will hang about and be repeated on talk boards, blogs, and in the travel community. Since EK shouldn't have boarded her in London, the alcohol admission is irrelevant. How many VLA's does EK fly from the UK to the Dubai? I would think several daily.
Let's keep the skies friendly.
 
727200
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Re: WHy does Emirates even serve alcohol to Dubai

Sat Aug 11, 2018 12:44 am

So typical of today's entitled generation. Do something wrong? Just blame them for catching you. Caused a scene? Yell gender or prejudice at every opportunity. But NEVER take responsibility for your actions.

I am surprised she was allowed to board the carrier with an expired Visa tho.
 
S0Y
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Re: WHy does Emirates even serve alcohol to Dubai

Sat Aug 11, 2018 12:49 am

This is very simple - never argue with foreign immigration officials (it will not end well). I doubt the booze had much to do with anything, but once she pissed them off they threw the book at her and got her for every possible offence
 
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adambrau
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Re: WHy does Emirates even serve alcohol to Dubai

Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:09 am

727200 wrote:
So typical of today's entitled generation. Do something wrong? Just blame them for catching you. Caused a scene? Yell gender or prejudice at every opportunity. But NEVER take responsibility for your actions.

I am surprised she was allowed to board the carrier with an expired Visa tho.


Just so I understand, what is the definition of today's entitled generation?

In the USA people tend to be comfortable asking "why". I do think, however, filming an immigration officer in the Mid-East, or basically any country who's passport I don't carry, is asking for it. I might joke with CBP in the USA but never would I film it. But the whole thing started in London with DOCS not properly checked. I'm sure our Dentist would have preferred to be denied boarding and simply learn a humilliating lesson. Somehow she got to Dubai and everything went down hill there - and likely suffering a very traumatic experience. And then her daughter is there who will likely be made out to be emotionally scarred for life. Again every country has it's own laws and how they are administered, but the pax checked in Britain and that is where this episode should have stopped.
Let's keep the skies friendly.
 
peanuts
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Re: WHy does Emirates even serve alcohol to Dubai

Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:25 am

[quote="adambrau"]1) Isn't it the responsibility of the airline to make sure travel documents and visas are valid prior to passengers being issued a boarding pass? So on this point alone some EK rep screwed up and allowed the passenger to board with a used single entry visa. One strike against EK.

^^^this
EK should fly her back at their expense...

In general, just poor politics. This snafu serves Dubai no good.
Having your ego stroked as a law enforcement officer will just hurt you, eventually.
And let's be honest; jetting off to Dubai with your child for a fun time "together"? There are about a thousand better places for that. Geez. This story is bad from both angles.
 
Casablanca
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Re: WHy does Emirates even serve alcohol to Dubai

Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:42 am

As a US citizen- I would never think of arguing with CBP official in my own country...., it will not end well!
Every country I have been to has strict laws about phones/ filming in immigration. This would not have ended well even in Europe/ USA
I think they just threw the book at her cause she pissed someone off.
 
waly777
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Re: WHy does Emirates even serve alcohol to Dubai

Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:33 am

peanuts wrote:
adambrau wrote:
1) Isn't it the responsibility of the airline to make sure travel documents and visas are valid prior to passengers being issued a boarding pass? So on this point alone some EK rep screwed up and allowed the passenger to board with a used single entry visa. One strike against EK.

^^^this
EK should fly her back at their expense...

In general, just poor politics. This snafu serves Dubai no good.
Having your ego stroked as a law enforcement officer will just hurt you, eventually.
And let's be honest; jetting off to Dubai with your child for a fun time "together"? There are about a thousand better places for that. Geez. This story is bad from both angles.


They were going to fly her back at their own expense, an immigration requested return is 99% of the time at the carriers expense. She was asked to go back and she refused to get on the plane, caused a scene and then decided to film it on top of that (there is a UAE law against that as it is). It is not politics, ignorance of laws is not a valid legal defence anywhere.

She had the choice to take the easy route and go back home quietly, it's nothing to do with ego of an officer. Don't piss off people who have the power to make you miserable, i thought this was common sense? She's learning that lesson the hard way.
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moo
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Re: WHy does Emirates even serve alcohol to Dubai

Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:38 am

The people trying to place blame on Emirates for missing the visa issue here are themselves missing the point - the airlines do visa checks so they avoid the fines issued by countries to airlines bringing in ineligible visitors.

Airlines are not responsible to passengers for their visas. Not in any way at all. Emirates holds no responsibility toward the passenger here at all for the passenger being allowed to board with a visa issue, that is entirely the passengers issue themselves - passengers should not treat the airlines check as a get out clause.

As for the alcohol question, again it's the passengers responsibility, completely and utterly.
 
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moo
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Re: WHy does Emirates even serve alcohol to Dubai

Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:42 am

waly777 wrote:
peanuts wrote:
adambrau wrote:
1) Isn't it the responsibility of the airline to make sure travel documents and visas are valid prior to passengers being issued a boarding pass? So on this point alone some EK rep screwed up and allowed the passenger to board with a used single entry visa. One strike against EK.

^^^this
EK should fly her back at their expense...

In general, just poor politics. This snafu serves Dubai no good.
Having your ego stroked as a law enforcement officer will just hurt you, eventually.
And let's be honest; jetting off to Dubai with your child for a fun time "together"? There are about a thousand better places for that. Geez. This story is bad from both angles.


They were going to fly her back at their own expense, an immigration requested return is 99% of the time at the carriers expense. She was asked to go back and she refused to get on the plane, caused a scene and then decided to film it on top of that (there is a UAE law against that as it is). It is not politics, ignorance of laws is not a valid legal defence anywhere.

She had the choice to take the easy route and go back home quietly, it's nothing to do with ego of an officer. Don't piss off people who have the power to make you miserable, i thought this was common sense? She's learning that lesson the hard way.


While Emirates are required to remove the passenger under their own expense (as in, no expense incurred to the rejecting country), they are entitled under IATA rules to recover that cost from the passenger.
 
waly777
Posts: 595
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:11 pm

Re: WHy does Emirates even serve alcohol to Dubai

Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:37 am

moo wrote:
waly777 wrote:
peanuts wrote:


They were going to fly her back at their own expense, an immigration requested return is 99% of the time at the carriers expense. She was asked to go back and she refused to get on the plane, caused a scene and then decided to film it on top of that (there is a UAE law against that as it is). It is not politics, ignorance of laws is not a valid legal defence anywhere.

She had the choice to take the easy route and go back home quietly, it's nothing to do with ego of an officer. Don't piss off people who have the power to make you miserable, i thought this was common sense? She's learning that lesson the hard way.


While Emirates are required to remove the passenger under their own expense (as in, no expense incurred to the rejecting country), they are entitled under IATA rules to recover that cost from the passenger.


True, that is why i said 99% of the time. Because some are unable to pay and even those who can, tend to avoid paying. The airline usually is obligated to take the pax back and does so at it's own expense most of the time.
The test of first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold 2 opposed ideas in the mind concurrently, and still function
 
speedbird52
Posts: 306
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:30 am

Re: WHy does Emirates even serve alcohol to Dubai

Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:40 am

Anyone else find it strange that we as a society are so alcoholic that the worlds most perfect airline won't be able to avoid bankruptcy without serving that drug
"I have control" Three Words That Could Have Saved Lives.
 
User avatar
FlightMode
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2018 7:45 am

Re: WHy does Emirates even serve alcohol to Dubai

Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:06 am

adambrau wrote:
Are there signs onboard or does EK make announcements about non-residents without a permit to not drink on the plane?

No, there are no signs or warnings about consumption of alcohol inflight. Quite the opposite: Emirates advertise the fact that they provide an extensive range of cocktails, beers, wines and spirits. Passengers in premium cabins are offered complimentary champagne (or juice) on boarding. A major selling point of the A380 is the bar on the upper deck. Alcohol is also offered in Emirates lounges, both in DXB and at other airports.

If passengers are consuming alcohol, they need to do so responsibly otherwise they could land themselves in trouble. While i suspect that the reason stated for arrest was alcohol consumption, it is possible that the actual cause was non co-operation on the part of the arriving passenger. I have never been challenged on arrival in Dubai, but then I haven't tried to enter without a visa or been argumentative with immigration officials. If the UAE authorities arrested every arriving passenger who consumed alcohol, they would be a building boom as more accommodation would be required.
 
blrsea
Posts: 1711
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 2:22 am

Re: WHy does Emirates even serve alcohol to Dubai

Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:09 am

Casablanca wrote:
As a US citizen- I would never think of arguing with CBP official in my own country...., it will not end well!
Every country I have been to has strict laws about phones/ filming in immigration. This would not have ended well even in Europe/ USA
I think they just threw the book at her cause she pissed someone off.


The last time I flew to SEA, I think I remember seeing boards asking not to film. I don't think many countries allow immigration procedure to be filmed.
 
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adambrau
Posts: 170
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Re: WHy does Emirates even serve alcohol to Dubai

Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:24 am

moo wrote:
The people trying to place blame on Emirates for missing the visa issue here are themselves missing the point - the airlines do visa checks so they avoid the fines issued by countries to airlines bringing in ineligible visitors.

Airlines are not responsible to passengers for their visas. Not in any way at all. Emirates holds no responsibility toward the passenger here at all for the passenger being allowed to board with a visa issue, that is entirely the passengers issue themselves - passengers should not treat the airlines check as a get out clause.


Wait - not sure what you mean?

Paragraph 1

I never mentioned why visas were checked. I assumed everyone knows that it's a bad file to have in your record. Your Airline pays possible fines and possible return plane ticket forms pax. Airlines are required to do document checks which include visas validity, as the airline might be fined by country pax was deemed ineligible to enter. It was some years ago I worked as a customer service rep for Swissair at JFK, and most of the checkin work was done by our partner Delta. Mid 1998's. Allowing a pax to board without DOCS going thru the Timatic was a no no because of the fine. Better to say no if you can't determine and superiors occupied doing more important work, and deny pax. Than have them refused at destination hours later and returned.

Especially a pax who

1) broke a generally unknown/unadvertized rule by accepting a glass of wine (maybe she had more) being offered by Airline cabin staff.

2) Unfortunately when she misbehaved on arrival with her visa deemed inadequate.

Paragraph 2

The second paragraph, and maybe I misunderstand you, for which I apologize. But it seems to support the theory that checkin staff at origin are not responsible for checking pax visas' are valid for destination.

Isn't it either one or the other?

Fine Airline or not fine cuz they don't pay anyway?

Check Visa and validity (good idea) or don't? (because for some reason blaming the airline agent who missed a detail and then all of this resulted, is a weak attack on Checkin Agents who shouldn't have to figure out the visa in said passport is valid for the upcoming flight)

Unfortunate all round but Gatwick EK is to blame for letting this whole event transpire. How much trauma and mental issues, has been caused by this. I won't get started on the contradiction of the Airline serving alcohol on flights into Dubai. Or the security lapse of pax boarding without DOCS check. This is just not what I would expect of EK...
Let's keep the skies friendly.
 
User avatar
moo
Posts: 4768
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

Re: WHy does Emirates even serve alcohol to Dubai

Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:45 am

adambrau wrote:
moo wrote:
The people trying to place blame on Emirates for missing the visa issue here are themselves missing the point - the airlines do visa checks so they avoid the fines issued by countries to airlines bringing in ineligible visitors.

Airlines are not responsible to passengers for their visas. Not in any way at all. Emirates holds no responsibility toward the passenger here at all for the passenger being allowed to board with a visa issue, that is entirely the passengers issue themselves - passengers should not treat the airlines check as a get out clause.


Wait - not sure what you mean?

Paragraph 1

I never mentioned why visas were checked. I assumed everyone knows that it's a bad file to have in your record. Your Airline pays possible fines and possible return plane ticket forms pax. Airlines are required to do document checks which include visas validity, as the airline might be fined by country pax was deemed ineligible to enter. It was some years ago I worked as a customer service rep for Swissair at JFK, and most of the checkin work was done by our partner Delta. Mid 1998's. Allowing a pax to board without DOCS going thru the Timatic was a no no because of the fine. Better to say no if you can't determine and superiors occupied doing more important work, and deny pax. Than have them refused at destination hours later and returned.

Especially a pax who

1) broke a generally unknown/unadvertized rule by accepting a glass of wine (maybe she had more) being offered by Airline cabin staff.

2) Unfortunately when she misbehaved on arrival with her visa deemed inadequate.


"Visa on arrival" is something very difficult to check, especially as short term visas already issued may not be available to the airline in any form, so the airline cannot check every possibility - they have to assume that, based on the passengers eligibility, they would be issued with a visa on arrival.

In this case, the passenger had a 30 day visa already issued, had left the country and was attempting to return within a period which has been known to be an issue - however, the airline isn't to know any of that, all they know is she was eligible for a visa on entry and therefor could board her.

Last year I flew between New Zealand and Australia a few times - for Australia I was required to apply for a visa, so the airline could check that each time, but for NZ I was under "Visa on Arrival", and was issued a new 6 month visa each time I "arrived" (4 times in 3 months, ultimately spending 9 months in NZ under visas obtained on arrival).

The only thing Qantas was concerned about during each flight to NZ was if I had a flight out of NZ, which I did. They could make no determination as to whether I would actually be issued a new visa each time (which did happen - the visa obtained expires when you leave the country, and a new one is issued on each arrival).


Paragraph 2

The second paragraph, and maybe I misunderstand you, for which I apologize. But it seems to support the theory that checkin staff at origin are not responsible for checking pax visas' are valid for destination.

Isn't it either one or the other?

Fine Airline or not fine cuz they don't pay anyway?

Check Visa and validity (good idea) or don't? (because for some reason blaming the airline agent who missed a detail and then all of this resulted, is a weak attack on Checkin Agents who shouldn't have to figure out the visa in said passport is valid for the upcoming flight)


Its not "either one or the other" because they two are different things.

The airline is not responsible to the passenger - it is the passengers responsibility to ensure they are eligible for entry to the country.

The airline is responsible to the destination country, if that countries laws require the transport company to remove the refused passenger at their own cost.

The IATA rules allow the transport company to recover the cost of removal from the refused passenger.

There is no contradiction here. The airline conducts document checks because they ultimately reduces the airlines costs - but in cases where the airline checks fail for whatever reason, or result in an ambiguous situation such as "visa on arrival" refusals for eligible passengers, the airline isn't responsible to the passenger for that refusal, but they are responsible to the destination country for the cost of removal.

Those checks are not done for the passengers benefit, they are done for the airlines benefit.

Unfortunate all round but Gatwick EK is to blame for letting this whole event transpire. How much trauma and mental issues, has been caused by this. I won't get started on the contradiction of the Airline serving alcohol on flights into Dubai. Or the security lapse of pax boarding without DOCS check. This is just not what I would expect of EK...


There is no security lapse, as noted above the lack of "docs" is the passengers responsibility, as is the consumption of alcohol on the flight.

EK staff, wherever they are, bear utterly no responsibility in this case.

I fly EK between NZ and the UK 3 times a year, via Dubai, and I have never had any issues with visas or alcohol (despite consuming a decent amount in the onboard Business class bar...), and the staff both onboard and at Dubai airport (and at the airports at either end) have never been anything but courteous to myself and my fellow passengers.
 
User avatar
SOBHI51
Posts: 3935
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2003 1:32 pm

Re: WHy does Emirates even serve alcohol to Dubai

Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:13 am

Let get this, the lady is taking her young daughter to Dubai for a vacation in either end of July or beginning of August while the temperature there is over 55C, why?
When residents of UAE are all escaping the heat to a cooler place.
Once i was at the arrival hall in IAD just before immigration, my phone rang, i put my hand in my pocket to retrieve it and i was shouted at by an officer that phones and videos are not allowed.

You can buy alcohol at the airport, in hotels and bars so consuming alcohol on a plane heading to DXB is not forbidden, making an ass of yourself is.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 15802
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: WHy does Emirates even serve alcohol to Dubai

Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:02 am

FlyHappy wrote:
scbriml wrote:
There is way more to this 'story' than is being reported in The Sun.

I've lived and worked in Dubai, commuting every month between there and home. I've never had any problem with having consumed alcohol on the flight to Dubai (either EK or BA).


Have you ever been asked by an Emirati Immigration officer if you consumed alcohol on the plane? I'm guessing not; thus you were not already a target.


No, and unless you were clearly drunk, there's no reason you would be. She wouldn't have been "a target" if she didn't have a visa issue and then started getting stroppy.

FlyHappy wrote:
You imply that this woman was "so stupid" for getting herself arrested, only because millions of others (yourself included) have not.


I was talking in generalities, I never referenced this woman at all.

FlyHappy wrote:
I agree this woman should have known her visa was invalid; I think it **highly likely** that she spoke foolishly to the authorities (out of anger or maybe entitlement, who knows) when told she could not enter the country and would need to leave. I blame her for not being aware enough of UAE custom and law (she had been there before) that lying about the wine consumed would have been far, far smarter than telling the truth.


Hmm, you think lying to an immigration office is smarter than telling the truth? That's a pretty slippery slope, right there.

FlyHappy wrote:
The question really is - should a society that criminalizes alcohol be in the business of promoting on flights to their own country?
despite your experiences, I think the answer is no, and not having been in the position of falling into a trap like this does not make it a "fair" trap, nor does it prove that those who do are stupid.


Well, millions of people every year enjoy time in Dubai, consume alcohol and manage to not get themselves arrested. Those that do get arrested are nearly always arrested for something else, then the alcohol consumption becomes an issue. There are no alcohol police at DXB waiting to "trap" arriving visitors who've had a glass of wine on their flight.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
User avatar
Pellegrine
Posts: 2109
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:19 am

Re: Why does Emirates even serve alcohol to Dubai

Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:08 am

She got arrested because she argued with immigration and filmed them, not because she drank alcohol.

UK media sure loves stories of Europeans getting locked up in Dubai
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
User avatar
adambrau
Posts: 170
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 11:44 pm

Re: WHy does Emirates even serve alcohol to Dubai

Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:23 am

moo wrote:
adambrau wrote:
moo wrote:
The people trying to place blame on Emirates for missing the visa issue here are themselves missing the point - the airlines do visa checks so they avoid the fines issued by countries to airlines bringing in ineligible visitors.

Airlines are not responsible to passengers for their visas. Not in any way at all. Emirates holds no responsibility toward the passenger here at all for the passenger being allowed to board with a visa issue, that is entirely the passengers issue themselves - passengers should not treat the airlines check as a get out clause.


Wait - not sure what you mean?

Paragraph 1

I never mentioned why visas were checked. I assumed everyone knows that it's a bad file to have in your record. Your Airline pays possible fines and possible return plane ticket forms pax. Airlines are required to do document checks which include visas validity, as the airline might be fined by country pax was deemed ineligible to enter. It was some years ago I worked as a customer service rep for Swissair at JFK, and most of the checkin work was done by our partner Delta. Mid 1998's. Allowing a pax to board without DOCS going thru the Timatic was a no no because of the fine. Better to say no if you can't determine and superiors occupied doing more important work, and deny pax. Than have them refused at destination hours later and returned.

Especially a pax who

1) broke a generally unknown/unadvertized rule by accepting a glass of wine (maybe she had more) being offered by Airline cabin staff.

2) Unfortunately when she misbehaved on arrival with visa deemed inadequate. SADLY SHE COULD HAVE GOTTEN A VISA ON ARRIVAL IF SHE HAD A SWEDISH PASSPORT. IT TOOK ME 2 SECONDS TO GOOGLE IT!


"Visa on arrival" is something very difficult to check, especially as short term visas already issued may not be available to the airline in any form, so the airline cannot check every possibility - they have to assume that, based on the passengers eligibility, they would be issued with a visa on arrival.



HOW COULD EK AGENTS WHO WORK AT GATWICK not know which passport requires a valid visa and that visa on arrival is verboten? SHE COULD HAVE SECURED A VISA ON ARRIVAL WITH A SWEDISH PASSPORT. IF INDEED HER PASSPORT WAS SWEDISH, she would have been issued a 90 day multi-entry visa so it SOUNDS LIKE SHE WAS SOME OTHER NATIONALITY...

UAE visa information - from EMIRATES...

Before you travel to the UAE, please check your visa requirements and make sure you have a valid visa if needed, or if your passport needs to be valid for a minimum period. Holders of non-standard passports and travel documents may also have different entry requirements: find out if you need to apply for a visa and other passport requirements.
As of 29 April 2016, GCC residence permit holders will need to apply for a UAE visa before arriving in Dubai.
As of 1 May 2017, Indian nationals holding a normal passport valid for a minimum of six months from the arrival date, and a visit visa or green card issued by the USA which is valid for a minimum of six months, can obtain a visa on arrival for a maximum stay of 14 days for a charge of AED120 (subject to change). They can apply to extend their stay for an additional 14 days for AED250 (subject to change).

Visas on arrival
(A) If you are a passport holder of the below country or territory, no advance visa arrangements are required to visit the UAE. Simply disembark your flight at Dubai International Airport and proceed to Immigration, where your passport will be stamped with a 30-days visit visa free of charge.
Andorra
Argentina
Australia
Brunei
Canada
Chile
Hong Kong, China
Ireland
Japan
Kazakhstan
Malaysia
Mauritius
Monaco
New Zealand
People's Republic of China
Russian Federation
San Marino
Singapore
Ukraine
United Kingdom
United States of America
Vatican City

(B) If you are a passport holder of the below country or territory, your passport will be stamped with a multiple entry 90-days visit visa that's valid for 6 months from the date of issue, and for a stay of 90 days in total.
Austria
Belgium
Brazil
Bulgaria
Croatia
Cyprus
Czech Republic
Denmark
Estonia
Finland
France
Germany
Greece
Hungary
Iceland
Italy
Latvia
Liechtenstein
Lithuania
Luxembourg
Malta
Netherlands
Norway
Poland
Portugal
Romania
Seychelles
Slovakia
Slovenia
South Korea
Spain
Sweden
Switzerland
Uruguay


In this case, the passenger had a 30 day visa already issued, had left the country and was attempting to return within a period which has been known to be an issue - however, the airline isn't to know any of that, all they know is she was eligible for a visa on entry and therefor could board her.

IF A VISA SAYs ONE ENTRANCE TO DUBAI AND IT IS STAMPED (ie USED), HOW CAN an EK CHECKIN AGENT NOT KNOW what DOCS are required to check, and if they don't it's an admission DOCUMENT CHECKERS should just let the passengers tell you what they need? THAT WOULD COST THE AIRLINE MORE. IN ANY CASE HER VISA, IF SHE HAD A SWEDISH PASSPORT, SHE WOULD HAVE A MULTI ENTRANCE VISA. I guess she was on UK passport? TO CONCLUDE, IF I WERE GOING TO SUE AND GATWICK DIDN"T CHECK MY ENTRANCE CREDENTIALS, I FEEL I'D HAVE A GREAT CASE. HOWEVER THERE IS A STRANGE SCENT TO THIS STORY!!!


Paragraph 2

The second paragraph, and maybe I misunderstand you, for which I apologize. But it seems to support the theory that checkin staff at origin are not responsible for checking pax visas' are valid for destination.

Isn't it either one or the other?

Fine Airline or not fine cuz they don't pay anyway?

Check Visa and validity (good idea) or don't? (because for some reason blaming the airline agent who missed a detail and then all of this resulted, is a weak attack on Checkin Agents who shouldn't have to figure out the visa in said passport is valid for the upcoming flight)


Its not "either one or the other" because they two are different things.

The airline is not responsible to the passenger - it is the passengers responsibility to ensure they are eligible for entry to the country.

YES THE PASSENGER's RESPONSIBILITY IS TO GET THE CORRECT DOCS TO ENTER A COUNTRY, BUT IF THEY DON'T IT'S THE PRIORITY OF THE AIRLINE TO FIGURE IT OUT AND DENY boarding"


There is no security lapse, as noted above the lack of "docs" is the passengers responsibility, as is the consumption of alcohol on the flight.

it is a security lapse to not check documents properly.
Let's keep the skies friendly.
 
User avatar
moo
Posts: 4768
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

Re: WHy does Emirates even serve alcohol to Dubai

Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:52 am

adambrau wrote:
moo wrote:
adambrau wrote:

Wait - not sure what you mean?

Paragraph 1

I never mentioned why visas were checked. I assumed everyone knows that it's a bad file to have in your record. Your Airline pays possible fines and possible return plane ticket forms pax. Airlines are required to do document checks which include visas validity, as the airline might be fined by country pax was deemed ineligible to enter. It was some years ago I worked as a customer service rep for Swissair at JFK, and most of the checkin work was done by our partner Delta. Mid 1998's. Allowing a pax to board without DOCS going thru the Timatic was a no no because of the fine. Better to say no if you can't determine and superiors occupied doing more important work, and deny pax. Than have them refused at destination hours later and returned.

Especially a pax who

1) broke a generally unknown/unadvertized rule by accepting a glass of wine (maybe she had more) being offered by Airline cabin staff.

2) Unfortunately when she misbehaved on arrival with visa deemed inadequate. SADLY SHE COULD HAVE GOTTEN A VISA ON ARRIVAL IF SHE HAD A SWEDISH PASSPORT. IT TOOK ME 2 SECONDS TO GOOGLE IT!


"Visa on arrival" is something very difficult to check, especially as short term visas already issued may not be available to the airline in any form, so the airline cannot check every possibility - they have to assume that, based on the passengers eligibility, they would be issued with a visa on arrival.

Its not "either one or the other" because they two are different things.

The airline is not responsible to the passenger - it is the passengers responsibility to ensure they are eligible for entry to the country.



There is no security lapse, as noted above the lack of "docs" is the passengers responsibility, as is the consumption of alcohol on the flight.

it is a security lapse to not check documents properly.


Who said the documents were not checked properly? They were. The lack of a visa is not a security lapse, it's an immigration issue that the airline is potentially fined for.
 
User avatar
adambrau
Posts: 170
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 11:44 pm

Re: Why does Emirates even serve alcohol to Dubai

Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:19 am

Pellegrine wrote:
She got arrested because she argued with immigration and filmed them, not because she drank alcohol.

UK media sure loves stories of Europeans getting locked up in Dubai



Seems most likely.

Tourist Visa's for British Passport holders are good for 30 days. You can leave and re-enter within the original 30 days, but if you extend your visa for 30 days it seems you can't leave. Seems weird. Best info I found was from the British Embassy in the UAE.





If you’re a British Citizen you can get a visitor’s visa on arrival in the UAE. In the past, this visa has allowed the visitor to stay in the UAE for up to 30 days. The visa has terminated automatically on departure and a new visa issued on arrival each time the same visitor returns to the UAE.

That approach continues to be applied in most cases, but in some cases British citizens (and visitors of some other nationalities) who have left the UAE and returned again within the 30 day period of stay granted at the time of the first arrival, haven’t received a new visa. Instead their stay has been limited to the initial 30 day period.

The British Embassy has sought, but not yet received, the UAE authorities’ clarification of the status and application of this different approach.
Let's keep the skies friendly.
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 5829
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

Re: Why does Emirates even serve alcohol to Dubai

Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:26 am

flybynight wrote:
But tempting or even bating people is not fair either. Not to sound too American, but I'd be tempted to sue Emirates.


Yep, too American. But this one is even better:

adambrau wrote:
I would hire the most capable attorneys, who in cases like this only charge a percentage of funds recovered (usually 33%) and go after the airline for lax enforcement of obviously strict laws and boarding her with a used single entry visa. Then the big money comes from emotional distress suffered by both pax. You sue EK in the United Kingdom and this is just the sort of story that will hang about and be repeated on talk boards, blogs, and in the travel community.


FlyHappy wrote:
EK cabin crew notate all pax who have consumed alcohol whilst onboard flights bound for Dubai.


Cabin crew are not meant to be babysitting adults. Ignorantia iuris non excusat has been the rule since Ancient Rome.

Galwayman wrote:
Because EK is a global airline not a theocracy .... yawn


Dubai is arguably the most succesful tourist marketing scam (EK is part of it), that lets stupid people forget that despite all those shiny malls and fancy restaurants and glutonous attractions it is still a country run along the lines of a 6th century barbaric social norms. A polished turd.
It is so successful that people are stupid enough to take their child there for a "beach vacation" in July when it is unbearable to stay outdoors (she deserves to be sent to jail for that alone ).
And yes, filming immigration officer while throwing a tantrum at the same time was just brilliant idea.

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