NightFlier
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Is The MD-11 Better Then The 777?

Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:46 am

I just saw a program on Discovery Wings that went over the history of MD company. At the end of the program the person doing the voice over for the program said that the MD-11 surpassed the brandnew 777 in many ways, such as passenger comfort,cargo capacity, and a few other things. I could not believe what I was hearing. Not that I don't like the MD-11 but I was always under the impression that the 777 was the jet of the future and was a much better airplane then the MD-11. Did that program make a mistake or is this true, and if it is why did Boeing stop making the MD-11 ?
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MD11LuxuryLinr
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RE: Is The MD-11 Better Then The 777?

Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:53 am

The MD11 is better for cargo, so far. The Triple7 surpasses the MD11 in range and efficiency and is therefore better for the airlines..
Caution wake turbulence, you are following a heavy jet.
 
NightFlier
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RE: Is The MD-11 Better Then The 777?

Tue Jul 13, 2004 12:00 pm

Thank U MD11LuxuryLinr, so the program was telling the truth about the cargo part. Smile. Maybe some else can help us with the other question?
Airplanes are only as good as the people who fly&fix them.
 
flymia
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RE: Is The MD-11 Better Then The 777?

Tue Jul 13, 2004 12:10 pm

Please the 777 have more range and more fuel effiecient then the MD-11. Passenger Comfort. The 777 got to be better. Atleast the ones I been on. And the 777 is fly by computers every single little thing is controled by one of the two computers on board. The 777 is far superior airliner in Design. But the MD-11 is much better for Cargo. Even though the Lower Cargo hold of an 777 can hold as much cargo as an DC-8F
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md80fanatic
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RE: Is The MD-11 Better Then The 777?

Tue Jul 13, 2004 12:24 pm

Had the program survived, the MD-11 would be holding it's own against the 777, probably beating it in some areas.
 
FlagshipAZ
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RE: Is The MD-11 Better Then The 777?

Tue Jul 13, 2004 12:37 pm

Agreeing with what was said above. The MD-11 is a better aircraft for pure freight hauling. The 777 is more geared toward hauling people around. When the triple 7 came online, it rendered the MD-11 obsolete in many ways...and I'm going so far as to say the 747 is becoming something of a dinosaur because the 777 is more efficient in many aspects as well. Had Boeing kept the MD-11 line open, I dare say the airline cargo industry would have seen many more examples of the trijet. Hell, perhaps even the USAF would have bought 60 KC-11s, to supplement the KC-10 fleet, instead of causing an issue with the KC-767 program. Just my two cents worth. Regards.
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MD11LuxuryLinr
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RE: Is The MD-11 Better Then The 777?

Tue Jul 13, 2004 12:49 pm

~"Had the program survived, the MD-11 would be holding it's own against the 777, probably beating it in some areas. "~

I definitely agree.. The thing that really pissed the airlines off and cancelled the orders was the MD11's inability to perform within the projected range. Had MDD designed a new wing, instead of using basically the DC10's wing, the airplane would have been a real keeper. Oh, well..
Caution wake turbulence, you are following a heavy jet.
 
meister808
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RE: Is The MD-11 Better Then The 777?

Tue Jul 13, 2004 1:08 pm

Why exactly is the MD-11 so much better at cargo than the T7?

-Meister
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trijetfan1
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RE: Is The MD-11 Better Then The 777?

Tue Jul 13, 2004 1:11 pm

I dont think so, I believe the triple 7 is highly efficent compared to the MD-11. But I would love to see as many MD-11's as they there are 777's.
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DfwRevolution
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RE: Is The MD-11 Better Then The 777?

Tue Jul 13, 2004 1:14 pm

Had MDD designed a new wing, instead of using basically the DC10's wing, the airplane would have been a real keeper.

MD's strategy was to be first on the market, and beat the A340 and 777 to the big sales. This was a huge risk in the first place, and might have worked had they gone through with the re-winged, twin jet called the MD-12.. but somewhere along the way MD lost their balls. In the end, airlines dropped the MD-11 for the A340 and 777 (hell SQ went through both) and the MD people were suddenly holding BA stock.

The MD-11 was nothing special compared to the all-new counterparts. Think re-engined A330 versus 7E7 rather than 737NG versus A320. As for the MD-11's wing, the loading was off the charts wasn't it?

Had Boeing kept the MD-11 line open, I dare say the airline cargo industry would have seen many more examples of the trijet

I'd say the only way Boeing would have kept it was if Airbus had put the A330 freighter on the market around the year 2000, because cargo airlines probably would have balked at the outrageous price tag for the 777. A 777-200LRF would make a very attractive cargo hauler, if it didn't cost an arm, leg, spleen, and kidney.
 
POSITIVE RATE
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MD11

Tue Jul 13, 2004 1:33 pm

From an airplane enthusiasts perspective the MD-11 is a much more unique and exciting plane both to look at and to fly aboard. i think the MD-11 is one of the most beautiful airliners ever built.
 
MidnightMike
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RE: Is The MD-11 Better Then The 777?

Tue Jul 13, 2004 1:56 pm

Well, I think the MD11 is a much sexier airplane than the 777, but, the 777 is a much better aircraft than the MD11.
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adriaticus
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RE: Is The MD-11 Better Then The 777?

Tue Jul 13, 2004 1:58 pm

<< Why exactly is the MD-11 so much better at cargo than the T7? >>

Two main reasons: First, at this point in time a T7 is considerably more expensive than an MD11.

Second, assuming acquisition cost could be the same, the T7 would need a costly additional reinforcement of undercarriage, wings and fuselage, that and MD11 doesn't need.

Both will need the cargo door and the reinforced rollerbed cabin floor, though.


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DC10GUY
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RE: Is The MD-11 Better Then The 777?

Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:06 pm

One reason why ....... Its a Douglas. A real airplane.
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trevd
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RE: Is The MD-11 Better Then The 777?

Tue Jul 13, 2004 3:14 pm

The operating economics of the 777-200ER just killed the MD-11. The airplane as found a 2nd life as a freighter filling a niche just below the 747-200F, offering 100 ton freight capacity and great range with 3 engine operating costs that compare very favorably to the 742F.

Of the 200 MD-11's built, just about 1/2 of them are now, or are in the process of being converted to freighters.

Down the road I believe you will see the same dynamic happening with the 777-200 as Boeing decides to offer initially a production freighter of the airplane and down the road, a converted freighter.
 
Ejazz
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RE: Is The MD-11 Better Then The 777?

Tue Jul 13, 2004 3:40 pm

Not sure I'm convinced that the MD11 carries more cargo than a B777-200. The B777-300 carries 30% more cargo than a B747-400, or they do here, so I'd think the 200 and MD11 are quite similiar in capacity.

Airlines such as United have already prodded Boeing into introducing a B777-200 Freighter because of the huge capacity and economics.
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Aeroflot777
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RE: Is The MD-11 Better Then The 777?

Tue Jul 13, 2004 3:47 pm

I've flown on both, and to tell you the truth I felt more comfortable in the MD-11. I really don't know why, since many people say the 777 is. But that's just my opinion.
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ha763
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RE: Is The MD-11 Better Then The 777?

Tue Jul 13, 2004 4:37 pm

The MD-11 does not carry more cargo in the lower cargo hold than the 777-200. Both can carry 18 LD3s or 6 pallets in the front and 14 LD3s or 4 pallets and 2 LD3s in the rear. In fact, the bulk cargo hold on the 777 is larger than the MD-11. 600 cu. ft. for the 777 versus 510 cu. ft. for the MD-11.
 
na
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RE: Is The MD-11 Better Then The 777?

Tue Jul 13, 2004 6:59 pm

The MD-11 is the only airplane I have only flown in first class (sadly I have to confess I usually fly economy!). And there the MD-11 falls way short of the 747-400. So its certainly not the best pax-plane.

Freighter capability: Freight-haulers love the MD-11. I guess that also has to do with its clearly lower aquisition price. I can´t see why a future 777F shouldn´t be better than the MD-11F. Size is similar, economics better (once you forget about the buying price!). But unltil most MD-11s haven´t been converted and Airbus doesn´t show a sign to enter the competition Boeing doesn´t need a 777F.
 
paxromana
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RE: Is The MD-11 Better Then The 777?

Tue Jul 13, 2004 7:28 pm

AZ is replacing 5 MD11 in fleet!!!
I dare welcome with a certain joy!!!
 
greasespot
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RE: Is The MD-11 Better Then The 777?

Tue Jul 13, 2004 8:04 pm

Passenger Comfort is solely dependent on the airline and has noting to do with the airplane. The airlines configure the cabins and not the manufacturer. If someone wanted to put sleeper beds in a MD 11 there is noting stopping them.

GS
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ushermittwoch
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RE: Is The MD-11 Better Then The 777?

Tue Jul 13, 2004 8:22 pm

I'd take an MD-11 any day.
But it's mainly due to my passion for the three-holers.
It's really sad that it didn't sell more frames, but I guess that did both Airbus and Boeing some good.
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
NIKV69
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RE: Is The MD-11 Better Then The 777?

Tue Jul 13, 2004 8:35 pm

Unfortunately the 777 is the only aircraft I have never flown  Sad

I have flown the MD-11 quite a number of times and it is one of the best aircraft! Quiet, comfortable etc. I too love 3 holers. Especially flying to Brazil over the Atlantic, it gives me more peace of mind.
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LY4XELD
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RE: Is The MD-11 Better Then The 777?

Tue Jul 13, 2004 9:28 pm

I've heard in the past that the MD-11, and I assume the DC10 was not a favorite a/c of pilots because of instability; the horizontal tail was designed too small and wasn't a favorite among pilots. Has anyone else heard this? If this is true, I would imagine that pilots favored the T7 over the MD-11 (although I agree with statements above that it is a beautiful a/c). I would also venture a guess that maintaining 2 engines is better than 3 for the MD-11 in terms of costs and reliability.
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Alessandro
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RE: Is The MD-11 Better Then The 777?

Tue Jul 13, 2004 9:28 pm

I don´t think MD11 going to be a common passenger plane in the future, the triple-7 are going to be.
But as freighter I think MD11 will be along for a long time and I don´t think the triple-7 freighter going to be a big hit...
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md80fanatic
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RE: Is The MD-11 Better Then The 777?

Tue Jul 13, 2004 9:30 pm

Of course when Boeing bought out MD, the writing was on the wall for the underdeveloped MD-11.

I still don't see that much of an efficiency difference between the two. Both plane's engines get similar numbers on a fuel consumed per pound of thrust basis. The difference in wing efficiency is small IMO....the MD-11's NASA designed winglets bring the wing more into line with the 777 computer designed wing. The MTOW is much higher for the MD-11 compared to the 777-200 that it was designed to compete against and it can fly that same weight much faster. No need to mention the benefit of having an extra engine and the savings had in a one-engine out scenario. Assymetric thrust can be better distributed with more engine options thus reducing the drag associated with flying slightly sideways.

When you have two trees growing side by side one usually must die in order for the other to prosper. Sadly we can see which one Boeing chose to take the ax to.
 
LY4XELD
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RE: Is The MD-11 Better Then The 777?

Tue Jul 13, 2004 9:40 pm

When you have two trees growing side by side one usually must die in order for the other to prosper. Sadly we can see which one Boeing chose to take the ax to.

Why would Boeing continue a product line that competes with its own products? It was an obvious decision and I'm sure if the tables were turned, MD would have had no problems in ending Boeing product lines in favor of their own.
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bmacleod
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RE: Is The MD-11 Better Then The 777?

Tue Jul 13, 2004 9:49 pm

It is sad to see such a beautiful aircraft like the MD-11 eventually wind up as a freighter. I agree that had MDD been more radical in designing the MD-11, MDD might still be in business.

I still imagine what a MD-13 would look like. (The MD-12 was a proposed stretched MD-11)
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Ejazz
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RE: Is The MD-11 Better Then The 777?

Tue Jul 13, 2004 10:49 pm

From Md80fanatic;

""The MTOW is much higher for the MD-11 compared to the 777-200 that it was designed to compete against and it can fly that same weight much faster.""

Standard MTOW MD11 - 273,290kg
Higher MTOW MD11 - 285,990kg

MTOW 777-200ER - 294,835kg (or were you referring to the A Market only?)

MD11 cruise speed Mach .82-84
B777-200 cruise speed Mach .83-.85





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Alessandro
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RE: Is The MD-11 Better Then The 777?

Tue Jul 13, 2004 10:49 pm

I think all 3-holer are to become extinct, so MD-11 was doomed because of that...
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Northwest717
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RE: Is The MD-11 Better Then The 777?

Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:06 pm

In terms of beauty, probably. But in terms of fuel efficiency and comfort, probably not. The world is going to be empty when those gorgeous birds leave the skies....  Sad

-Tim
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solnabo
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RE: Is The MD-11 Better Then The 777?

Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:22 pm

Does MD-11 has the widest cabin among the 3-holers, or is it L-1011? Width of 777?

Still think the DC-10/MD-11 have the biggest cockpit windows! Hell, they´re bigger than my kitchenwindows *LOL*

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N328KF
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RE: Is The MD-11 Better Then The 777?

Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:52 pm

I dunno, I think it would have been interesting if Boeing had only bought the McDonnell (defense assets) side of the company, which is what they were after anyhow, and spun Douglas off to someone else.
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solnabo
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RE: Is The MD-11 Better Then The 777?

Wed Jul 14, 2004 12:03 am

Boeing kept the MD/Globemaster cuz that military-craft is a hit, and all of the jetliners (717 is actually MD-95) went down the drain!! How sad!!  Sad

My $ 294.000

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MD11Engineer
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RE: Is The MD-11 Better Then The 777?

Wed Jul 14, 2004 12:03 am

From a maintenance point of view, computerizing the whole airplane brings certain disadvantages, like increased software hiccups and other, not reproducable faults. The MD-11 uses the old DC-10 (DC-3, DC-4....) flight control system running with cables. Once rigged, normaly no problem.
I´ve got to say it is basically a good design, but the MD-11 suffers from poor workmanship and sloppiness. It could be that the workers at MD were not really motivated during the last few years and didn´t do their work properly. So there are a lot of problems concerning routing of wires and tubes (parts chafing against each other, causing breaks, shorts and leaks). LH Cargo had a big problem with this because they got the last MD-11s, when all workers already had a notice in their pockets, telling them that their jobs would be terminated once the last MD-11 leaves the factory.
Another thing is the design philosophy. It requires a different mindset than Boeing or Airbus. In the airline I´m working for many mechanics come from Boeing products and refuse to learn the philosophy of MD. This leads to bad troubleshooting results and delays. Instead they just gripe about the f*cking MD.
If you set your mind to this plane, it is really easy to handle. I rarely have maintenance delaysm, because most problems can be fixed by just reseting the right C/B, and even if you have to change something, access on the MD with the exception of the top of #2 engine is very good, all access panels have quick release fasteners, compared to Boeing, where you usually have to drill out 50 screws with rounded heads.
T/s through the CFDS (Centralised Fault Detection System) is easy as well, once you got the knack.

Concerning the smaller horizontal stabilizer, like most planes today it acts as a trim tank. You don´t need as much (drag increasing) surface, because the Fuel System Controller (FSC) pumps fuel into it for weight and balance purposes.
Another thing is to increase efficiency, the MD-11 flies almost horizontaly in cruise, not nose up like most other airplanes (causing extra drag).
This makes it a little instable around the pitch axis. To keep it stable it uses a LSAS (Longitudinal Stability Augmentation System) in the Flight Control Computers (FCC), which works like a yaw damper, but around the pitch axis.

Jan
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: Is The MD-11 Better Then The 777?

Wed Jul 14, 2004 12:15 am

Simple question really...


Which has sold nearly 700 units and is still backordered to the brim by multiple airlines?

Which is the patch-job relic of a bygone era: that only sold around 200 units, and one which only a 1 or 2 airlines had any interest in receiving newbuilt (freighters at that)?
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
md80fanatic
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RE: Is The MD-11 Better Then The 777?

Wed Jul 14, 2004 12:57 am

From my perspective I see as many sources stating that no further orders were recieved once Boeing bought out MD as I see sources stating that no further orders were accepted after the buyout. There's quite a difference in those two words.  Smile
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Is The MD-11 Better Then The 777?

Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:15 am

Lufthansa had to INSIST that their existing contracts with Douglas would be honoured by Boeing. Boeing instead wanted to sell them 747-400 freighters. After the last MD-11 with an existing contract was manufactured, Boeing immideately fired the remaining production staff and had the manufacturing equipment demolished, even though at least LH wanted to buy more MD-11s (they want to extend their fleet to 35 MD-11s). I assume UPS would have prefered to buy new planes instead of taking those from bancrupt Brazilian carrier VASP.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
adriaticus
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RE: Is The MD-11 Better Then The 777?

Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:44 am

FedEx MD11F fleet comprises 30 birds. 29 additional MD10-30F integrate its MD family. In addition to those, there are 22 more DC10-10F's.

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MD11Engineer
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RE: Is The MD-11 Better Then The 777?

Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:46 am

Currently there are three ex-Alitalia MD-11sparked in storage at CGN. They have been bought by LH and are waiting to get converted into freighters.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
Bekol
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RE: Is The MD-11 Better Then The 777?

Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:56 am

So, it's just Boeing murdered the MD11s IMO.... I love this 3-holers!
 
mbmbos
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RE: Is The MD-11 Better Then The 777?

Wed Jul 14, 2004 2:57 am

Did Boeing "murder" the MD-11 program or was it a mercy killing?

Sales were weak. The whole program was jump-started by FedEx, and their explanation for ordering the MD-11 was to stimulate sales so that passenger airliners would sell their DC-10 fleets, thereby allowing FedEx to buy them on the cheap and turn them into freighters. Early adopters complained publicly about teething problems with the new planes. I believe that AA decided to abandon the MD-11 fleet program before MD was sold to Boeing (any verification out there?).

So, it looks like the MD-11 program was withering before Boeing came along.

 
MD88Captain
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RE: Is The MD-11 Better Then The 777?

Wed Jul 14, 2004 2:58 am

I've flown the MD11 and MD88 (over 3500hrs). I've flown 2 Lockheed products and most of the Boeing jets. From this pilot's viewpoint I prefer Lockheed (#1) and Boeing (#2) by a wide margin over MD airplanes.
 
mbmbos
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RE: Is The MD-11 Better Then The 777?

Wed Jul 14, 2004 3:00 am

Did Boeing "murder" the MD-11 program or was it a mercy killing?

Sales were weak. The whole program was jump-started by FedEx, and their explanation for ordering the MD-11 was to stimulate sales so that passenger airliners would sell their DC-10 fleets, thereby allowing FedEx to buy them on the cheap and turn them into freighters. Early adopters complained publicly about teething problems with the new planes. I believe that AA decided to abandon the MD-11 fleet program before MD was sold to Boeing (any verification out there?).

So, it looks like the MD-11 program was withering before Boeing came along.

 
yegspotter
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RE: Is The MD-11 Better Then The 777?

Wed Jul 14, 2004 3:20 am

MD88 Captain:

Can you elaborate as to what it was about Lockheed products you liked?? and what it was about Boeing that you liked/disliked?? What are the primary reasons for placing MD at the bottom of the list?? I'm curious to hear a pilot's point of view....


YEGspotter
 
shankly
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RE: Is The MD-11 Better Then The 777?

Wed Jul 14, 2004 4:21 am

Well having flown on both the MD-11 and the 777 recently, from the pax point of view there really is not a lot in it.

The MD's windows seemed bigger than the 777's and it certainly looks a whole lot better, but the MD's interior (Finnair) certainly shows it's age over the BA 777 I flew. The 777 also seems quieter and gives a better feel of stability. Don't also forget those non-slamming 777 toilet seats!

The MD-11 does however have one distinct advantage for me over the 777, which also helps me sleep...it has one more redundant engine and over water or the vast tracts of Siberia, I think that's pretty important.

L1011 - P F M
 
whitehatter
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RE: Is The MD-11 Better Then The 777?

Wed Jul 14, 2004 4:23 am

The MD-11 was also powered by previous-generation powerplants, CF6 and PW engines. The 777 has more efficient, higher thrust GE90, Trent and PW4080 fans. Economics alone dictated that the MD-11 would fare poorly against a big twin with full FBW and a clean sheet design.

The launch customer (BCal) and Air Europe both cancelling early in the program didn't help either.

At the risk of starting AvB here, there is a potential parallel with the 7E7 and a proposed updated/lightened A330 from Airbus. Which is why Airbus might consider a clean sheet to be a better start rather than update an existing design.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
Hamlet69
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RE: Is The MD-11 Better Then The 777?

Wed Jul 14, 2004 4:30 am

" I assume UPS would have prefered to buy new planes instead of taking those from bancrupt Brazilian carrier VASP."

Though UPS does have 3 frames that were formerly with VASP, the majority of their (expanding) fleet came from JAL, not VASP.

Also, don't forget that UPS decided on the MD-11F years after Boeing announced they would end production. Though they might have preferred to buy new aircraft, it was really rather a moot point by that time.


As to the topic of this thread; the low acquisition cost of the MD-11 does make it a nice option for cargo carriers. However, when one considers it from a performance point of view, the MD does not fair well versus Boeing's big twin.

Regards,

Hamlet69
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AmericanAirFan
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RE: Is The MD-11 Better Then The 777?

Wed Jul 14, 2004 5:34 am

Well in the cargo aspect of all of this maybe this isn't a good reason between the MD-11 and the 777 but FedEx is made mostly of MD-11's and DC-10's and maybe a little off subject in the cargo aspect of a 777 is there any cargo carrier that flys 777's? and 777's are one of the most ufel efficient things on the market.
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whitehatter
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RE: Is The MD-11 Better Then The 777?

Wed Jul 14, 2004 5:40 am

There are no cargo 777s as of yet. Nor has Boeing offered a cargo conversion, or actively promoted a new build 777F.

It'll happen eventually, just not at the moment. Most 777s are with their first-owners, and cargo haulers tend to buy used aircraft.
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