kl911
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What's The Most Fuel Efficient Commercial Plane?

Fri Aug 20, 2004 5:39 am

Like the topic says, what is the most fuel efficient commercial plane at the moment? Please no guesses, or A vs B vs E.......... Facts please.

KL911
 
Sabena332
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RE: What's The Most Fuel Efficient Commercial Plan

Fri Aug 20, 2004 5:45 am

Coincidentally I read in Lufthansa's Balance Magazine today that the A 340-600 is the most fuel efficient plane in their fleet, the fuel consumption of this plane is 2.7 liters per 100 passenger kilometer.

I don't know if that is the most fuel efficient plane though.

Patrick

Edit: Grammar error

[Edited 2004-08-19 22:50:30]
NZ1's mother is a disgusting crack-whore and his father is a worthless alcoholic!
 
kl911
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RE: What's The Most Fuel Efficient Commercial Plan

Fri Aug 20, 2004 5:54 am

'''the fuel consumption of this plane is 2.7 liters per 100 passenger kilometer.'''

Wouldn't it be easier to give the liter per passenger? That based on a full airplane. In that case you can compare a A318 to a A380. Do you mean 100 passengers or 100 km?

KL911
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: What's The Most Fuel Efficient Commercial Plan

Fri Aug 20, 2004 5:58 am

...no subsonic commercial aircraft could match Concorde's efficiency during supercruise.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
greasespot
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RE: What's The Most Fuel Efficient Commercial Plan

Fri Aug 20, 2004 5:58 am

This is like asking which apple tastes better. The is no 1 aircraft at the top. It all depends on factors such as weather...Operating procedures.........0perating areas ..Operating countries.....Pilot differences....And engine age...Etc.

Greasespot
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Sabena332
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RE: What's The Most Fuel Efficient Commercial Plan

Fri Aug 20, 2004 5:59 am

Do you mean 100 passengers or 100 km?

I think it is 2.7 liters per passenger per 100 kilometers.

Patrick
NZ1's mother is a disgusting crack-whore and his father is a worthless alcoholic!
 
ushermittwoch
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RE: What's The Most Fuel Efficient Commercial Plan

Fri Aug 20, 2004 6:02 am

Or for 100 passengers per km...
 Big grin
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
320tech
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RE: What's The Most Fuel Efficient Commercial Plan

Fri Aug 20, 2004 6:03 am

Do you mean 100 passengers or 100 km?

It's the amount of fuel required to transport 100 pax 1 km.

Wouldn't it be easier to give the liter per passenger?

That's much too small a number.  Smile
The primary function of the design engineer is to make things difficult for the manufacturer and impossible for the AME.
 
kl911
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RE: What's The Most Fuel Efficient Commercial Plan

Fri Aug 20, 2004 6:07 am

'''Do you mean 100 passengers or 100 km?

It's the amount of fuel required to transport 100 pax 1 km.

Wouldn't it be easier to give the liter per passenger?

That's much too small a number. ''''



Pffff, My weekend started already, guess I have to slow down the beer...  Laugh out loud
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: What's The Most Fuel Efficient Commercial Plan

Fri Aug 20, 2004 6:11 am

It may be a small number, but SAS specifies it  Big grin

A340-300: Fuel consumption 0.039 liters per seat per km.

The rest can be found at: http://www.sasflightops.com/ under "Fleet".
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Greg
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RE: What's The Most Fuel Efficient Commercial Plan

Fri Aug 20, 2004 6:21 am

I imagine that JAL does fairly well with their 600 seat 747SR's on a km basis.
 
timz
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RE: What's The Most Fuel Efficient Commercial Plan

Fri Aug 20, 2004 6:28 am

Are you limiting this to jet airliners?

LH says 0.027 liters per passenger-kilometer for A340-600
SAS says 0.039 liters per seat-km for A340-300, so more than 0.039 per pax-km

Apparently they're comparing different circumstances.

"It all depends on factors such as weather...Operating procedures.........0perating areas ..Operating countries.....Pilot differences....And engine age...Etc."

But theoretically we should be able to set all those equal for two aircraft being compared. The question is a perfectly sensible one, but don't plan on getting any definitive answers.

An additional complication: the "most fuel-efficient aircraft" of a given payload, other things being equal, will be the one with the shortest range-- i.e. the one with the lowest MTOW for that payload.
 
kl911
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RE: What's The Most Fuel Efficient Commercial Plan

Fri Aug 20, 2004 6:33 am

I think we should be able to measure this by looking at the max loaded max range. Having that we can have 3 categories: 1/3 , 2/3 and full range fuel consumption. That case we can also look at planes that are build for short range, or for only long range.

( I just wonder if airlines are gonna give me the data....  Laugh out loud )

KL911
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: What's The Most Fuel Efficient Commercial Plan

Fri Aug 20, 2004 6:58 am

Those l/seat/km figures are presumably for cruise too, and the JAL domestic 747s might not look so good if you counted the average comsumption.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
transPac
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RE: What's The Most Fuel Efficient Commercial Plan

Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:41 am

I agree with Greasespot. Some aircraft could be more fuel efficient for some uses and less for others. Perhaps if you narrowed it down into categories it would be easier to determine. Even then it wouldn't be all that exact but you could probably get ballpark figures.
 
kl911
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RE: What's The Most Fuel Efficient Commercial Plan

Fri Aug 20, 2004 9:11 am

'''Perhaps if you narrowed it down into categories it would be easier to determine'''

Look at post 12..... That would help.

 Laugh out loud
KL911
 
densfonua
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RE: What's The Most Fuel Efficient Commercial Plan

Wed Aug 25, 2004 11:37 am

I went hunting and found data from Boeing and Airbus about range, payload, fuel etc. I then calculated the payload-range per fuel that the plane has in megagram kilometers per kilogram of fuel (I am using only weight because the same model of aircraft can vary immensely in the number of seats it has: SQ only puts ±180 seats on their A345's, but Airbus advertises that airplane to carry >300 pax in standard configuration). I calculated three values: the efficiency of the plane with no cargo, pax, pilot or dust (the OEW + Max Fuel), the efficiency with standard pax (as defined by the manufacturer), and the efficiency with full cargo. All of these calculations are for maximum range at the cargo weights. This analysis yielded that:
1) The A345 is the most efficient without any cargo, passengers, crew or dust with (36.4 MgKm/Kg)
2) The 772LR (preliminary data) is the most efficient with a standard load of pax (37.4 MgKm/Kg)
3) The 772LR (preliminary data) is the most efficient with max cargo (29.8 MgKm/Kg)

Looking only at a load of passengers, this is the order of aircraft currently in production, or far enough along in design / build phase that preliminary data has been released by Boeing and Airbus:
772LR, A345, A346, 773ER, A388, A343, A342, A333, 772ER, 744, 744ER, 764ER, A332, 772A, A321, A319, A318, 738, 73G, 739, A320, 736, 717

If you have any further questions, feel free to e-mail me , and I will send you my full 38 page document. It is also important to note that fuel efficiency does not directly translate into operational efficiency, for more details, I can send you the full document that examines these issues in more depth.

(I was wondering, should this be moved into CivAv or Tech/Ops? This is not an opinion question, it has some definite answer, so maybe it should be in a different forum?)

(and it is my first post on airliners.net,  Smile )

-Chris
 
ZKSUJ
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RE: What's The Most Fuel Efficient Commercial Plan

Wed Aug 25, 2004 7:46 pm

So, where abouts does the 744 fit in? I heard it was up there but that may heve been a while ago.
 
timz
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RE: Most Fuel Efficient Commercial Plane?

Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:53 am

I think this thread did start out in Civ Aviation-- hard to see why it got moved.

Chris, you said the 777LR is 20% less efficient with full cargo (plus pax?) than it is with "a standard load of pax"? You're saying it's less efficient with more payload?

If you've got numbers handy, let's see more of them. And you might as well spell out your assumed tonnes of payload.
 
UA772IAD
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RE: What's The Most Fuel Efficient Commercial Plan

Thu Aug 26, 2004 4:18 am

I think it would be the 777-200 and 757-200 as most major airlines (in the US) (especially the ones that are struggling) have upped the service on these aircrafts. Notice how AA, UA, Delta ( DL or DA ?), NW, CO, US have used these aircraft more frequently.
 
densfonua
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RE: What's The Most Fuel Efficient Commercial Plan

Thu Aug 26, 2004 3:47 pm

Here is the more complete table, sorry it is so difficult to read (and has so little data), it is part of what is in the excel file. Again, if you want all of it, I can e-mail it to you. This is the list for only the highest gross weight models of each type of aircraft [i.e. only the highest gross weight 772A is listed]. The larger the number the better (that means more cargo [in Megagrams] can be carried farther [kilometers] for the same fuel [kilograms]). Also note that the Mgkm/kg max is not really achievable: this is possible operating at OEW, so there would be no pilot, no dog to bite the pilot for touching the controls, and the aircraft would have been recently vacuumed so there is no dust—I would in general disregard this number, as it is meaningless for real operations. Mgkm/kg pax and Mgkm/kg Cargo are more useful numbers, for that is closer to how airlines operate planes in revenue service. Also remember, just since an airliner has good Mgkm/kg rating, it is not necessarily the most efficient aircraft overall in its category: only good for particular types of operations. For instance, this analysis suggests that the A345 works wonderfully on ULH routes with very little cargo / pax, where the 772LR works better on slightly shorter ULH routes with more cargo / pax. So, an airline will purchase an aircraft that is optimized for the operating environment that the particular airline will use the aircraft for most frequently. I am sorry I cannot get the table to have more normal formatting


Model    Pax       Mgkm    Mgkm    Mgkm    Mgkm(cargo)
             Weight  /kg        /kg        /kg        /kg
                         Max       Pax       Cargo
717       10.9      15.2      15.6      9.1        3.11
736       10.6      22.8      17.7      13.7      2.87
738       12.6      22.1      21.4      12.3      3.42
739       15.2      19.2      19.2      14.0      3.70
744       39.2      30.5      30.7      21.7      3.03
773       33.5      33.5      24.3      19.2      2.72
73G      11.0      23.0      20.9      12.7      3.28
744ER   39.2      33.0      30.4      25.1      2.89
764ER   19.0      28.7      29.1      17.5      2.71
772       33.5      31.5      26.0      18.6      3.43
772ER   33.5      35.2      30.9      25.3      3.49
772LR   40.3      35.8      37.4      29.8      4.33
773ER   39.1      33.5      34.0      25.0      3.78
A318     7.5        21.1      21.4      8.4        2.35
A319     10.5      24.1      21.6      14.6      3.00
A320     14.0      20.7      18.4      11.7      3.35
A321     17.5      22.2      22.1      13.6      4.14
A332     22.0      34.6      26.1      21.4      2.46
A333     28.0      30.4      28.2      22.5      3.64
A333     28.0      30.7      31.2      19.8      3.75
A342     21.0      32.4      32.7      25.3      2.50
A343     28.0      33.2      33.6      24.3      3.40
A345     30.0      36.4      36.1      24.5      2.91
A346     36.0      35.5      34.7      25.5      3.39
A388     45.0      0.0        33.7      27.0      2.71


I hope this helps some.

-Chris
 
timz
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RE: What's The Most Fuel Efficient Commercial Plan

Fri Aug 27, 2004 1:36 am

So far I haven't figured those out, and I'll bet the rest of us are equally baffled. Can you pick one aircraft and run through the example for us, showing us what each figure is and how you got it?
 
densfonua
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RE: What's The Most Fuel Efficient Commercial Plan

Fri Aug 27, 2004 1:56 pm

Ok, I will do my best. Here is the process for the 772LR:
First, the numbers:
MOTW: 347.8 Mg
Maximum Zero Fuel Weight (MZFW): 209.1 Mg
Operational Empty Weight (OEW): 145.1 Mg
Maximum Structural Payload (MSP): 64.0 Mg
Max Fuel Weight (MFW): 162.4 Mg
Pax Weight: 40.3Mg
Max Range: 18890 km
Max Range w/pax: 17446 km
Max Range @MSFW: 13890 km

Then I can calculate the efficiency in Mgkm/kg.
Mgkm/kg Max = (OEW + MFW) * Max Range / MFW
= (145.1 + 162.4) + 18890 / 162.4 = 35.8 = Mgkm/kg

Mgkm/kg Pax = MTOW * Range w/pax / (MTOW - OEW - Pax Weight)
= 347.8 * 17446 / (347.8 - 145.1 - 40.3) = 37.4 Mgkm/kg

Mgkm/kg @MZFW = MTOW * Range @ MZFW / (MTOW - MZFW)
= 347.8 * 13890 / (347.1 - 209.1) = 34.8 Mgkm/kg

I hope this makes sense. The last two numbers are the efficiencies of the aircraft at the two extremes at MTOW: with pax only, and with full cargo. Again, these numbers do not completely tell us exactly how efficient the plane is for every utilization, but gives a good idea about its efficiency.

-Chris
 
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Aeroflot777
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RE: What's The Most Fuel Efficient Commercial Plan

Fri Aug 27, 2004 5:06 pm

I would say the most fuel efficient: TU-154.  Laugh out loud
 
timz
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RE: Most Fuel Efficient Commercial Plane?

Sat Aug 28, 2004 2:23 am

Thanks for the example. So I guess the last column is tonne-kms-based-on-payload per tonne of fuel? And the other tonne-km/tonne figures include the weight of the plane itself.

I'm still mulling the table-- but surely the three 772s should have the same passenger payload? I'll see if that's why the 772LR came out most efficient.

And you've got 773 pax payload same as 772.

[Edited 2004-08-27 19:31:39]
 
densfonua
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RE: What's The Most Fuel Efficient Commercial Plan

Sat Aug 28, 2004 2:43 pm

Yes, the last column is for payload only, the first ones include the fuel and weight of the plane.

The range charts Boeing provides show that the 772LR has a slightly higher pax weight than the 772A and 772ER. I assume this is due to the increased length of travel for the 772LR, but I am not sure.

As odd as it seems, the range chart for the 773A lists its Zero Fuel Weight as 194Mg, so subtracting the OEW of 160.5Mg leaves it with the same pax weight as the 772 and 772ER of 33.5Mg. I agree, this is somewhat strange.

Thanks for checking my work.

-Chris
 
timz
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RE: What's The Most Fuel Efficient Commercial Plan

Sun Aug 29, 2004 4:29 am

Waitaminnit-- ZFW minus OEW is total payload, not pax weight.
 
densfonua
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RE: What's The Most Fuel Efficient Commercial Plan

Sun Aug 29, 2004 2:04 pm

The chart lists the ZFW, and if you know the Range (the range is given by Boeing or Airbus), and the MTOW (all of these numbers are for MTOW), you can find what the ZFW at the range specified as the pax range at MTOW, and you then subtract the OEW from the ZFW to get the total payload, which in this case, is the pax weight.
 
JHSfan
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RE: What's The Most Fuel Efficient Commercial Plan

Mon Aug 30, 2004 9:19 pm

Thanks Sabena332 for the hint to Lufthansa's Balance Magazine Smile Although you did not remember the info correctly, your hint is valuable.

Balance 2004 can be downloaded from http://konzern.lufthansa.com/en/html/service/bestellungen/index.html. The file has a size of 3,29 MB.
Info on the A340-600 can be read on page 4 in Balance2004_eng.pdf, page 4. It uses 3.3 liters, not 2.7.
Even more interesting is page 19 (passenger planes) and 21 (cargo planes) in lh_balance_daten_2004.pdf. At the top on both pages Lufthansa has summoned the consumption of fuel for all models in the Lufthansa fleet for the year 2003. These figures displays the actual fuel consumption in 2003.
The Group fleet's most fuel-efficient aircraft are the A330-200s and Boeing 757-300s operated by Thomas Cook UK, both with 2.7 liters per 100 passenger kilometers.
- lh_balance_daten_2004.pdf, page 6

Other airlines are not likely to reach the same results, because it all depends a lot of concrete factors. As Greasespot said in reply 4: This is like asking which apple tastes better.

Starlionblue: A321-200 seems to be the most fuel effective plane in the SAS fleet. Using only 0.031 liters per seat per km, it sure beats the A340-300. But then A321-200 is not a long range plane. Thanks for the link Smile

DENSFONUA - interesting work  Big thumbs up

Yours in realtime
JHSfan
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