hardiwv
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The Weakest Link In Each Alliance

Tue May 17, 2005 10:30 pm

Which airlines are the weakest link in each of the three major alliances? (or the "black sheep" from the alliance):

Star: SK, UA or RG?
Sky: AZ or DL?
OneWorld: IB or EI?

And the strongest link? (the airline that sets the pace, and keeps the standard of the alliance!):

Star: LH, SQ or UA?
Sky: AF-KL or CO?
OneWorld: BA, AA or CX?
 
UAalltheway
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RE: The Weakest Link In Each Alliance

Tue May 17, 2005 10:34 pm

Weakest:
Star: Varig
Sky: Delta
OneWorld: Iberia

Strongest:
Sky: Lufthansa
Sky: AirFrance/KLM
OneWorld: British Airways
 
zonky
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RE: The Weakest Link In Each Alliance

Tue May 17, 2005 10:40 pm

Sky: Lufthansa

presume you mean Star, but LH not Singapore? That's an odd choice....
 
erikwilliam
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RE: The Weakest Link In Each Alliance

Tue May 17, 2005 10:41 pm

in the matter of money health

weak:

Star: US, UA, AC, RG
Sky: AZ
One: IB

strong

Star: SQ
Sky:AF/KLM
One: BA/ CX
Dida, Cafu, Lucio, Roque Junior, Roberto Carlo, Emerson, Ze Roberto, Ronaldinho, Kaka, Adriano, Robinho, Ronaldo
 
MEA-707
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RE: The Weakest Link In Each Alliance

Tue May 17, 2005 10:44 pm

Hi Hardi
difficult question, there's no straight answer.
At Star, United is definitely a key member without whom they wouldn't be what they are. Their possible bankruptcy makes it a serious threat though. SK and RG are also lossmaking but that isn't a nuisance or a danger that much for the alliance. Maybe US (big, halfhearted recent member, almost bankrupt) is more a weakest link.
SQ seems to sort of have a half hearted position in Star so I certainly wouldn't count them the strongest link, rather LH.

At Sky, AF (KL) and DL are certainly the engine of Sky. DL isn't the weakest link as a true founding member, the same position as UA. I might think as Korean as it is located too isolatedly to be a good Europe-Asia/Pacific hub and also with its earlier safety issues no comparison to the strong Asian airlines at the other alliances.

At OneWorld, all airlines including IB and EI and unmentioned LAN and Finnair are doing fine lately so it's ironic the alliance as a whole is in the shadow of the other two, they certainly need more synergy and some major names (like JAL or Emirates) joining to gain back momentum. I see BA-AA as the mainstray although their cooperation is faulty.
Cheers, Servaas
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
UAalltheway
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RE: The Weakest Link In Each Alliance

Tue May 17, 2005 10:46 pm

Sorry, I meant Star and SQ. I was reading a LH news article the same time I posted hahaha. And the site is being a butt and won't let me edit my post. oh well..
 
hardiwv
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RE: The Weakest Link In Each Alliance

Tue May 17, 2005 11:23 pm

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 4):
Maybe US (big, halfhearted recent member, almost bankrupt) is more a weakest link.

Agree with you. UA is a vital link to the world's most important market: the US. RG is fundamental in South America, and so is SK's link to North Europe. US Airways is, indeed, the weakest link.

However, I still would select LH over SQ as the strongest link.

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 4):
At Sky, AF (KL) and DL are certainly the engine of Sky

Agree with you again.

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 4):
At OneWorld, all airlines including IB and EI and unmentioned LAN and Finnair are doing fine lately so it's ironic the alliance as a whole is in the shadow of the other two, they certainly need more synergy and some major names (like JAL or Emirates) joining to gain back momentum.

Totally correct. In OW are airlines have high quality standards and are in good financial shape. However, there have problems in terms of synergies and market coverage. They need to expand with some big names such as EK and JAL. [TAM is also about to join OW this year].

Rgs,
 
PPVRA
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RE: The Weakest Link In Each Alliance

Wed May 18, 2005 12:42 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Thread starter):
Which airlines are the weakest link in each of the three major alliances? (or the "black sheep" from the alliance):

Star: SK, UA or RG?
Sky: AZ or DL?
OneWorld: IB or EI?

In terms of what?

RG/UA/IB/DL are not weak links given the size of the market they serve. All of these airlines are key to their respective alliances and that does not constitute "weak links" but rather "important" and "strategic links."

If you mean financially, and a "danger" for the alliances if these carriers go bankrupt, then ok, I agree.

Cheers,
PPVRA
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
JGPH1A
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RE: The Weakest Link In Each Alliance

Wed May 18, 2005 12:57 am

OW - EI definitely. Also CX for being completely indifferent to the whole concept of "seamless service"

*A - SQ - ditto.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
RCS763AV
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RE: The Weakest Link In Each Alliance

Wed May 18, 2005 10:59 am

Weak:

Star: US, they are the money looser whos network does not benefit the alliance that much....
Sky: AZ, they just keep loosing money and their operation is a disaster.
OW: EI, they try to be an LCC and this is of no help to the suposedly "premium" alliance.

Strong:

Star: SQ and LH. Both have strong networks and lots of money.
Sky: AF/KL. They are the healthiest member right now and have the strongest network after DL.
OW: BA. QF and CX are also good but BA´s coverage is unbelievable.
 
hardiwv
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RE: The Weakest Link In Each Alliance

Wed May 18, 2005 5:29 pm

RCS763AV:

I agree with your points. I would only add that AA is also a strong link in OW, probalbly on par with BA, QF and CX. No doubt that although OW has strong members, it fails to have synergies and still has important market gaps.

The fact that OW has as its member EI could also indicate that in the future some LCCs will join alliances. E.g. rumours that GOL was invited to joing Sky. Could this be possible without damanging the image of the alliance?

Rgs,
 
BA380
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RE: The Weakest Link In Each Alliance

Wed May 18, 2005 7:18 pm

For One World, surely EI must be the weakest -- no short-haul business class, horrible looking cheapo new livery. I understand that it may make sense for them, but it devalues the One World brand.
cabin crew: doors to automatic and cross-check...
 
cornish
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RE: The Weakest Link In Each Alliance

Wed May 18, 2005 7:43 pm

Quoting BA380 (Reply 11):
For One World, surely EI must be the weakest -- no short-haul business class, horrible looking cheapo new livery. I understand that it may make sense for them, but it devalues the One World brand.

More than that, EI is the weakest link in terms of network. Apart from Ireland, what routes/connections does it give oneworld that BA couldn't??

For Star it could well be US at present - what additional benefits does it give to the alliance that UA doesn't already in terms of market, etc. ??

For Sky it is probably AZ at the moment, unless it can start operating seamlessly with its partners. again apart form the Italian market (which is admittedly big) what does it offer other passengers that AF can't ?

[Edited 2005-05-18 12:43:51]
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
BA380
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RE: The Weakest Link In Each Alliance

Wed May 18, 2005 8:17 pm

true. EI adds very little. IB is a big advantage for One World in S American operations and across southern Europe. So it must be EI.
cabin crew: doors to automatic and cross-check...
 
desiguy2447
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RE: The Weakest Link In Each Alliance

Wed May 18, 2005 10:36 pm

The weakest
Sky: AZ
Star: US
One: IB


Strongest

Sky: Airfrance/KLM
Star: Lufthanasa
One: British Airways
 
User avatar
shamrock350
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RE: The Weakest Link In Each Alliance

Wed May 18, 2005 11:05 pm

Quoting BA380 (Reply 11):
For One World, surely EI must be the weakest -- no short-haul business class, horrible looking cheapo new livery. I understand that it may make sense for them, but it devalues the One World brand.

WHAT CHEAPO NEW LIVERY!!!!! it's great and if your talking about the dot com livery it was not new but just to advertise the website, anyway it gone now!

Quoting BA380 (Reply 11):
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: The Weakest Link In Each Alliance

Wed May 18, 2005 11:48 pm

Quoting Desiguy2447 (Reply 14):
The weakest
Sky: AZ
Star: US
One: IB


Strongest

Sky: Airfrance/KLM
Star: Lufthanasa
One: British Airways

Agree with the above selection.
 
hjulicher
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RE: The Weakest Link In Each Alliance

Thu May 19, 2005 1:50 pm

My opinion

One World
weakest: Finair - seems a bit too isolated and not big enough to be important the alliance. Really how many people need to fly to/through HEL?
stronest: BA best network between US and europe, and much of Africa and Asia for westerners.

SkyTeam
weakest: Czech Air, again too small to be important and vital to the alliance. Many of their routes are already covered by KLM and AF, as well AZ.
strongest: KLM good network coverage with NW and AF and strong network in europe, good hub, and good coverage in middle east and asia. codeshares with NW and AF give even better north american coverage and great connections for europe.

Star
can't say, have only flown on United.
LH 442
 
MH017
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RE: The Weakest Link In Each Alliance

Fri May 20, 2005 5:04 am

If we're talking financially it would be IMHO:

Star - weakest US/UA; strongest SQ/LH
OneWorld - weakest EI; strongest CX
Skyteam - weakest AZ; strongest AF-KL
don't throw away tomorrow !
 
RCS763AV
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RE: The Weakest Link In Each Alliance

Sat May 21, 2005 5:42 am

Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 17):
My opinion

One World
weakest: Finair - seems a bit too isolated and not big enough to be important the alliance. Really how many people need to fly to/through HEL?
stronest: BA best network between US and europe, and much of Africa and Asia for westerners.

Many Americans and Europeans flying to Thailand and China do fly through HEL.


Dont know why people say IB is a weak link to OW. Losts of Latin america, very good euro network and profitable.
 
hardiwv
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RE: The Weakest Link In Each Alliance

Mon May 23, 2005 6:12 am

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 19):
Dont know why people say IB is a weak link to OW. Losts of Latin america, very good euro network and profitable

Indeed, IB is a vital link for OW's network Europe-Latin America.

Rgs,
 
Lan_Fanatic
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Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2001 11:41 am

RE: The Weakest Link In Each Alliance

Tue May 24, 2005 4:37 am

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 19):
Dont know why people say IB is a weak link to OW. Losts of Latin america, very good euro network and profitable.

Exactly. IB is a key player for oneworld. The weakest link is surely Aer Lingus, as I think they don't bring anything that others couldn't give to the alliance.
 
eilennaei
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RE: The Weakest Link In Each Alliance

Sat May 28, 2005 4:52 am

Re AY and HEL: not many people realise that the shortest route between e.g. Britain and many Far East destinations goes through Finland. I blame the traditional school/newsroom world map for that.
One of the routes is drawn just about directly over our house, and on a clear winter afternoon you'll often be able to see as much as four contrails perfectly aligned one after another on their way to fill in their respective landing slots, presumably at a London airport.

[Edited 2005-05-27 21:58:29]
 
Airlinerfreak
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RE: The Weakest Link In Each Alliance

Sat May 28, 2005 11:35 am

Quoting Uaalltheway (Reply 1):
Weakest:
Star: Varig
Sky: Delta
OneWorld: Iberia

Strongest:
Sky: Lufthansa
Sky: AirFrance/KLM
OneWorld: British Airways

I actually have to agree with you on this thing Joe, everything exactly as you said it except for one, OneWorld has to be AA in my personal opinion.
 
daron4000
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RE: The Weakest Link In Each Alliance

Sat May 28, 2005 11:51 pm

I would think that it would be Star: LH/SQ/UA, the first two for their service and reputation, and UA because without them, they'd have a huge chunk missing and the only presence they would have would be US, which isn't a good sign. One World: BA or CX Sky Team: CO or KL-AF Weakest- Star: RG or US, One World: IB or EI, Sky Team: KL
 
squared
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RE: The Weakest Link In Each Alliance

Sun May 29, 2005 6:59 am

Star: Spanair appears to be the least important (although it is part of SAS Group). LH and UA are probably the anchors of Star, while SQ doesn't seem totally committed to the alliance.

Sky: OK is a nice addition in Eastern Europe, but it appears to be rather weak compared to the other giants. AF-KLM and DL appear to be anchors. CO has a great network, but I feel they are like SQ, not totally committed to Sky, and would probably jump ship to Star if UA collapsed (heaven forbid).

OW: BA & AA are the anchors. QF, CX, & IB are secondary partners but still important. LA and AY are also strong additions, weakest is EI.

SQuared
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: The Weakest Link In Each Alliance

Sun May 29, 2005 8:41 am

Quoting SQuared (Reply 25):
OK is a nice addition in Eastern Europe, but it appears to be rather weak compared to the other giants.

If size is the criteria, then they are certainly weak. On the other hand I would take anyday a fairly small profit-making airline over a struggling giant for years on the verge of a bankrupcy with horrible inflight service and identity crisis the likes of DL.
 
squared
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RE: The Weakest Link In Each Alliance

Sun May 29, 2005 8:50 am

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 26):

If size is the criteria, then they are certainly weak. On the other hand I would take anyday a fairly small profit-making airline over a struggling giant for years on the verge of a bankruptcy with horrible inflight service and identity crisis the likes of DL.

I agree that small but efficient carriers are better than gigantic carriers with financial problems. I also prefer carriers with good service. But if DL were to leave Sky (through bankruptcy or other means), the effect would be far more profound on Sky, than if OK left Sky.

SQuared
 
Checo77
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RE: The Weakest Link In Each Alliance

Sun May 29, 2005 9:02 am

Quoting SQuared (Reply 27):
I agree that small but efficient carriers are better than gigantic carriers with financial problems. I also prefer carriers with good service. But if DL were to leave Sky (through bankruptcy or other means), the effect would be far more profound on Sky, than if OK left Sky

Definitely true. Big airlines, even though they may struggle, are key players in the alliances. The small airlines are only an addition. But I can certianly say that OK has a superior cabin service than DL, fro example. So its very difficult to say. Nevertheless, OK is definitely not the weakest link in SkyTeam.
Czech Boeing lover living in Lima
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: The Weakest Link In Each Alliance

Sun May 29, 2005 9:22 am

Quoting SQuared (Reply 27):
But if DL were to leave Sky (through bankruptcy or other means), the effect would be far more profound on Sky, than if OK left Sky.

That's certainly true. But I was asking what criteria are there to be called alliance's "weakest link". Financial health? Network? Quality of service? Size?

As far as DL leaving... Do you think it would matter THAT much? Especially if it was DL? SkyTeam now has 3 out of 5 US majors in its alliance (6 if US Airways is considered as major which I don't know), which makes the alliance a bit overcrowded in that particular region IMHO. So I'd think that CO and NW would just fill in any blank spaces left by the departure of DL.
 
squared
Posts: 352
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 1:48 am

RE: The Weakest Link In Each Alliance

Sun May 29, 2005 10:21 am

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 29):
That's certainly true. But I was asking what criteria are there to be called alliance's "weakest link". Financial health? Network? Quality of service? Size?

I think network is one of the most important components of an Alliance, beyond that of a marketing gimmick. Financial health isn't the most important, unless an airline is on the verge of default (i.e collapse). For instance in Star, UA isn't in the best of shape, but it isn't going to die anytime soon. UA is still important in Star, and therefore is not the weakest link (reminds me of that game show with that horrid British woman Big grin)

Good quality of service is an added bonus IMHO. Compare CX and IB, and I think you get my drift.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 29):
As far as DL leaving... Do you think it would matter THAT much? Especially if it was DL? SkyTeam now has 3 out of 5 US majors in its alliance (6 if US Airways is considered as major which I don't know), which makes the alliance a bit overcrowded in that particular region IMHO. So I'd think that CO and NW would just fill in any blank spaces left by the departure of DL.

NW (Asia), CO (Europe, and now Asia) and DL all have their relative strengths, and though I agree that having 3 US airlines in one alliance may be overkill, DL is still large enough to affect Sky significantly, I believe more so than OK.

I determine the importance of an airline to how much disruption that airline would cause if it left. In Sky's case, a departure by OK would disrupt the alliance less than if DL, AZ, KE, NW, KL, CO, AF, or AM left. A departure from AF would be the most disruptive, and one from OK the least.

SQuared

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