md90fan
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Most Unprofitable Routes Of Recent Times

Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:43 pm

What are some of the Most Unprofitable routes of recent times?
http://www.devanwells.blogspot.com/
 
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N328KF
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RE: Most Unprofitable Routes Of Recent Times

Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:47 pm

Anything operated by FLYI.
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CO7e7
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RE: Most Unprofitable Routes Of Recent Times

Sat Jan 07, 2006 10:18 pm

Here's one we dicussed recently: SAS Loses 100 Million On Bangkok Route (by RedChili Dec 17 2005 in Civil Aviation)#ID2497656

[Edited 2006-01-07 14:21:49]
 
WDBRR
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RE: Most Unprofitable Routes Of Recent Times

Sat Jan 07, 2006 10:24 pm

There is much traffic on NYC area to Florida
 
swissgabe
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RE: Most Unprofitable Routes Of Recent Times

Sat Jan 07, 2006 10:56 pm

as a guess:
HRE-SIN-PEK
HRE-DXB
INU-TRW-NAN
KUL-JNB-CPT-EZE
any Malaysia domestic flight operated by MH, especially rural services
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campbelldok
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RE: Most Unprofitable Routes Of Recent Times

Sat Jan 07, 2006 10:59 pm

VARIG Brazil´s GRU - NRT (Brazil - Japan) via LAX after the US gov. started asking for VISAs even for passengers with a stop (not even unboarding the aircraft) in its territory. No wonder why this line will now be dropped after decades in service.
 
xiaotung
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RE: Most Unprofitable Routes Of Recent Times

Sat Jan 07, 2006 11:04 pm

NZ's AKL-TPE, to be withrawn soon.
 
vv701
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RE: Most Unprofitable Routes Of Recent Times

Sat Jan 07, 2006 11:58 pm

Is the QF LHR-MAN-LHR a real commercial feeder servive or is it just there to protect two of QF's LHR slots? As the photographer says the Flightline BAe146 can be a bit of a surprise whebn you hear a QF flight is oon final:

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CALMSP
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RE: Most Unprofitable Routes Of Recent Times

Sun Jan 08, 2006 12:20 am

i belive HP lost a bundle on their transcons out of SFO...........i believe statements were made of sometimes only a dozen or so people on a 757 SFO-JFK/EWR (can't remember where they were going to)
 
md90fan
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RE: Most Unprofitable Routes Of Recent Times

Sun Jan 08, 2006 4:27 am

Quoting Swissgabe (Reply 4):
HRE-DXB

Oh yeah, that was the one with ony 1 person on board! And if SK is losing 100mil. bucks to BKK why don't they end the route?
http://www.devanwells.blogspot.com/
 
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mariner
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RE: Most Unprofitable Routes Of Recent Times

Sun Jan 08, 2006 4:30 am

Hooters Air - RFD/DEN perhaps?

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
AF022
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RE: Most Unprofitable Routes Of Recent Times

Sun Jan 08, 2006 6:21 am

My vote goes to Royal Tongan's flight from TBU to HNL. It literally killed the airline.

Quoting Swissgabe (Reply 4):
HRE-SIN-PEK

Agree 100%. The loads have got to be abysmal.

Quoting Campbelldok (Reply 5):
VARIG Brazil´s GRU - NRT (Brazil - Japan) via LAX

This was probably a gold mine compared to Varig's big fiasco: GIG-GRU-JNB-BKK-HKG. An absolute farce, this route; should have never been operated.
 
md90fan
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RE: Most Unprofitable Routes Of Recent Times

Sun Jan 08, 2006 6:27 am

Quoting AF022 (Reply 11):
This was probably a gold mine compared to Varig's big fiasco: GIG-GRU-JNB-BKK-HKG. An absolute farce, this route; should have never been operated.

What aircraft is this route operated with or was operated with?

Quoting AF022 (Reply 11):
HRE-SIN-PEK

If they made a CRJ with that enough range for that , they still probably couldnt fill it. Didnt this route used to stop in BKK?
http://www.devanwells.blogspot.com/
 
GBOAC
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RE: Most Unprofitable Routes Of Recent Times

Sun Jan 08, 2006 6:58 am

Quoting VV701 (Reply 7):
Is the QF LHR-MAN-LHR a real commercial feeder servive or is it just there to protect two of QF's LHR slots?

I believe it was put on to protect slots, but it is a valid service - except it can only be booked as an add-on sector to pax flying connecting to/from one of the 'real' QF flights at LHR, i.e. last I heard you can't just try and buy tickets it directly.

Phil
 
ehho
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RE: Most Unprofitable Routes Of Recent Times

Sun Jan 08, 2006 6:59 am

Open up any SU OAG for the 60s, 70s or 80s. Loads of flights to mysterious locations in Africa, Latin-America. It was only after the demise of the USSR that it became known that SU's aircraft were often used for illegal arms transports.
"Get your facts first. Then you may distort them as much as you please" -- Mark Twain
 
rdwootty
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RE: Most Unprofitable Routes Of Recent Times

Sun Jan 08, 2006 7:02 am

Eos is making a loss? it just seems such a secret airline and no one knows the numbers. I suspect that they have lost mountains since they change the flight times
 
Joelatbsl
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RE: Most Unprofitable Routes Of Recent Times

Sun Jan 08, 2006 8:14 am

Many feeder routes of network carriers like BA, AF, LH may not be profitable as a route themselves but provide enough connection traffic to kept in the schedules. A typical one would be BSL-LHR operated by BA. Any normal person would fly either LX into LCY or EZY into STN or LTN to get to London but BA flies to BSL too just to get some pax into their (and OneWorld's) planes that fly to America, Asia etc.


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ourboeing
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RE: Most Unprofitable Routes Of Recent Times

Sun Jan 08, 2006 8:36 am

My mom just recently flew Alitalia from DEL-Milan and Milan to IAD. She said that both the flights were almost empty.

OURBOEING
 
2travel2know
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RE: Most Unprofitable Routes Of Recent Times

Sun Jan 08, 2006 8:43 am

Quoting AF022 (Reply 11):
This was probably a gold mine compared to Varig's big fiasco: GIG-GRU-JNB-BKK-HKG. An absolute farce, this route; should have never been operated.

Maybe a stop in MPM between JNB and BKK could have saved that interesting route.

UA and CO in CNF maybe could qualify for unprofitable destination then, but I think there'll be service between CNF and North America sometime soon.
I think CO first trial with CLO and BAQ from IAH (via SJO) was a unprofitable, specially BAQ; aslo their VVI service (blame LIM for not allowing 5th rigths LIM-VVI-LIM).
I'll add MX MEX-CUN-PTY and JM MBJ-PTY (JM has tried 3 times to start service to PTY) to the list too.

[Edited 2006-01-08 00:44:52]
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nwa757boy
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RE: Most Unprofitable Routes Of Recent Times

Sun Jan 08, 2006 8:51 am

My guess would be high tourist routes...like anything into and out of LAS or Florida...
 
bsbisland
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RE: Most Unprofitable Routes Of Recent Times

Sun Jan 08, 2006 8:54 am

Quoting AF022 (Reply 11):
Quoting Campbelldok (Reply 5):
VARIG Brazil´s GRU - NRT (Brazil - Japan) via LAX

This was probably a gold mine compared to Varig's big fiasco: GIG-GRU-JNB-BKK-HKG. An absolute farce, this route; should have never been operated.

In the 90s I remember reading that Asian routes were among the most profitable for Varig, specially Japan (the only other was the "fiasco" BKK-HKG). I believe HKG was also routed through FRA at some point. Varig has flown Brazil-Japan for 40 years... In recent times, yes it is unprofitable.

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 12):
What aircraft is this route operated with or was operated with?

Mostly the MD-11, which was quite new at the time. B747-300,-200,-400 were also used at some point. The DC-10 I´m not sure.
 
Sabena332
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RE: Most Unprofitable Routes Of Recent Times

Sun Jan 08, 2006 8:57 am

How about DUS-PEK and DUS-PVG?

Patrick
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MAH4546
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RE: Most Unprofitable Routes Of Recent Times

Sun Jan 08, 2006 9:04 am

Quoting NWA757boy (Reply 19):
My guess would be high tourist routes...like anything into and out of LAS or Florida...

And your guess would then be wrong.
a.
 
UN_B732
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RE: Most Unprofitable Routes Of Recent Times

Sun Jan 08, 2006 9:09 am

QF's LHR-MAN was just a slot retainer as I understood it, and losses didn't really matter.
What now?
 
HPnonrev99
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RE: Most Unprofitable Routes Of Recent Times

Sun Jan 08, 2006 10:12 am

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 8):
i belive HP lost a bundle on their transcons out of SFO...........i believe statements were made of sometimes only a dozen or so people on a 757 SFO-JFK/EWR (can't remember where they were going to)

CALMSP your probably right, after summer 2005, the transcons dissapeared off the schedule and haven't been seen or talked about since. Some flights were actually full, but the flights that operated with 10-20 people were a total waste. The routes were:

SFO-BOS
SFO-JFK
LAX-BOS
LAX-JFK

And vice-versa of course.
Coming soon to an airport near you.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Most Unprofitable Routes Of Recent Times

Sun Jan 08, 2006 10:16 am

Quoting HPnonrev99 (Reply 24):
SFO-BOS
SFO-JFK
LAX-BOS
LAX-JFK

And vice-versa of course.

And LAX-IAD as well. LAX-MIA was going to launch after that, but was canceled before it was announced after seeing the terrible returns on the other trans-con flights.
a.
 
photolppt
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RE: Most Unprofitable Routes Of Recent Times

Sun Jan 08, 2006 11:00 am

You can add LIS-Macau for TP, operated on A343.
I believe it routed via BKK and, for a short time, BRU, making it LIS-BRU-BKK-Macau.
 
md90fan
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RE: Most Unprofitable Routes Of Recent Times

Sun Jan 08, 2006 11:07 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 25):
And LAX-IAD as well. LAX-MIA was going to launch after that, but was canceled before it was announced after seeing the terrible returns on the other trans-con flights.

Why didnt they work? yields, competition? lack of feed?
http://www.devanwells.blogspot.com/
 
SX36
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RE: Most Unprofitable Routes Of Recent Times

Sun Jan 08, 2006 11:08 am

Quoting Joelatbsl (Reply 16):
Many feeder routes of network carriers like BA, AF, LH may not be profitable as a route themselves but provide enough connection traffic to kept in the schedules.

Along the same lines are the NW routes to/from the bodunk towns in North Dakota and Minnesota connecting passengers to their flights at MSP.
NW, the only way out.....
 
SkyexRamper
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RE: Most Unprofitable Routes Of Recent Times

Sun Jan 08, 2006 11:50 am

YX MKE-HOU

or anything out of Rockford!
Good Luck to all Skyway Pilots! It's been great working with you!
 
lordanmol
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RE: Most Unprofitable Routes Of Recent Times

Sun Jan 08, 2006 12:38 pm

Quoting Ourboeing (Reply 17):
My mom just recently flew Alitalia from DEL-Milan and Milan to IAD. She said that both the flights were almost empty

One flight doesn't really matter. I could say S2 is doing really bad on its DEL - SIN - DEL route because both the flights went empty. Coming back everyone had a row to themselves. But in reality S2 cant be doing bad on that route because there are more and more airlines trying to get into that sector.

Regards
Hopefully no wrong feelings felt.
Hmmmmm....
 
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STT757
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RE: Most Unprofitable Routes Of Recent Times

Sun Jan 08, 2006 12:51 pm

How about NWA MSP-Oslo.
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2travel2know
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RE: Most Unprofitable Routes Of Recent Times

Sun Jan 08, 2006 1:14 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 31):
How about NWA MSP-Oslo

I don't think it was that recent, but it sure was a money looser.

How about AA BNA-LGW, MIA-FRA, DFW-Puebla w/F100 and DFW-PTY?
IMHO DFW-PTY had an slight chance of survival if AA had used then B737-800, offer inmediate connections @ DFW to/from the NRT AA flights and maybe flown 5-6 per week instead of daily.
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
nwa757boy
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RE: Most Unprofitable Routes Of Recent Times

Sun Jan 08, 2006 2:34 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 22):
Quoting NWA757boy (Reply 19):
My guess would be high tourist routes...like anything into and out of LAS or Florida...

And your guess would then be wrong.

Why?
 
N1120A
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RE: Most Unprofitable Routes Of Recent Times

Sun Jan 08, 2006 2:47 pm

Quoting GBOAC (Reply 13):
last I heard you can't just try and buy tickets it directly.

Of course not, that would be cabotage

Quoting NWA757boy (Reply 33):
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 22):
Quoting NWA757boy (Reply 19):
My guess would be high tourist routes...like anything into and out of LAS or Florida...

And your guess would then be wrong.

Why?

Because while the yields are not the greatest, they are reliable revenue streams. WN is the most financially successful airline around and LAS is their largest station. Same goes for Hawai'i, which people decry as "low yield". Bob Crandall said if he had the choice between an unproven route or another HNL frequency, he would do HNL every time.
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TWA902fly
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RE: Most Unprofitable Routes Of Recent Times

Sun Jan 08, 2006 2:50 pm

Quoting SX36 (Reply 28):
Along the same lines are the NW routes to/from the bodunk towns in North Dakota and Minnesota connecting passengers to their flights at MSP.

I think if you fill a DC-9-30 on a 300 mile route with people paying well over $300 no matter where in the USA they are going you are going to make money...
'902
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SHUPirate1
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RE: Most Unprofitable Routes Of Recent Times

Sun Jan 08, 2006 3:04 pm

How about America West's PHX-HNL-NGO flights on a 747?
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AF022
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RE: Most Unprofitable Routes Of Recent Times

Sun Jan 08, 2006 5:51 pm

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 12):
What aircraft is this route operated with or was operated with?

RG used either a B767 or an MD11 on the route.

Quoting BSBIsland (Reply 20):
In the 90s I remember reading that Asian routes were among the most profitable for Varig, specially Japan (the only other was the "fiasco" BKK-HKG). I believe HKG was also routed through FRA at some point. Varig has flown Brazil-Japan for 40 years... In recent times, yes it is unprofitable.

The HKG route failed because RG did not have traffic rights JNB-HKG; anyone getting off the plane at HKG had come all the way from South America, but had to endure 2 stops along the way. There is no way on God's Green Earth that the HKG route generated a profit any year at Varig - impossible. I saw those loads flight after flight, month after month, year after year, from the day it started til the day it ended. No way. One of the biggest traffic movements I saw on the route originated in ASU and was destined to TPE (imagine that - ASU/GRU/JNB/BKK/HKG/TPE). Impossible to make money on that routing.

I agree, though, that Japan was a big money maker. I didn't know that things turned so badly after the visa problem came up. RG should have re-routed the flight instead of abandoning it.
 
md90fan
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RE: Most Unprofitable Routes Of Recent Times

Sun Jan 08, 2006 6:21 pm

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 32):
Puebla w/F100

Why didnt this work? Aircraft? IIRC DL also flew DFW-PBC too

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 32):
DFW-PTY

That should have been able to work IMO
http://www.devanwells.blogspot.com/
 
flyboy7974
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RE: Most Unprofitable Routes Of Recent Times

Sun Jan 08, 2006 7:12 pm

couple statements about above comments:

hp never used the b757 on the transcon flights.

the sfo transcons were a complete bust for america west. wasn't it also about this time though that other carriers also were opening up sfo to transcons, one i remember was that ata offered nonstop service to ewr as well around then. the lax flights performed much better for hp with the exception of iad. mia was mentioned for quite some time to eventually start, but so was ord/dfw and other larger metro areas east as possiblities for new lax nonstops. jfk/bos were doing satisfactory to well for hp in lax depending upon the day, and hp even offered a third nonstop on both routes through the holiday 2004 season and then again summer 2005. around here though the us rumors proved true and the merger was announced shortly thereafter, and obviously, the transcons were to be dumped by hp. there would be no point to nonstop cross country service when the merger would allow connections through las, pit, clt, phl, and pit to either bos or jfk. while hp brought transcon service back to realistic fares, hp was unable to offer a product that would then compare to the aa/ua service that was also offered at the same price. pax were able to pay a fare much lower because of the hp competition and with that, fly ua/aa and enjoy their much more premium f product and cabin.
 
stirling
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RE: Most Unprofitable Routes Of Recent Times

Sun Jan 08, 2006 9:23 pm

Quoting NWA757boy (Reply 33):
Why?

Just think about it for a moment...all the airlines that fly into both Las Vegas and Florida...you're saying money can't be made into those markets?

jetBlue to Florida?

Southwest to Vegas?

2 airlines better at making money than most.

Just because a flight is leisure, doesn't mean it cannot produce a profitable yield.
Delete this User
 
buckieboy
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RE: Most Unprofitable Routes Of Recent Times

Mon Jan 09, 2006 12:46 am

All,

I flew once on a route that lasted only 6 month's; with Duo from Edinburgh to Zurich. It was an early morning departure and about 9 people were on board. I was surprised that proper crockery was used, even in economy (although the flight may have been one-class).

Given the numbers of PAX and ZRH's extortionate (cf. BSL) landing fees, I would say this route would never have made a profit. Flights ran from November 2003 to May 2004 when all of Duo's operations were suspended.

Cheers

Buckieboy
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apodino
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RE: Most Unprofitable Routes Of Recent Times

Mon Jan 09, 2006 12:50 am

I have one that HP ran in the early 90s

JFK-SNA on a 757
 
Damian
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RE: Most Unprofitable Routes Of Recent Times

Mon Jan 09, 2006 2:49 am

Quoting Buckieboy (Reply 41):
Given the numbers of PAX and ZRH's extortionate (cf. BSL) landing fees, I would say this route would never have made a profit.

To be fair, Duo's loads were slowly improving before the cash ran out, but they never seemed to advertise their services very widely. It's quite astonsihing how many people I spoke to who regularly flew between Scotland and Switzerland who had never heard of Duo.

EDI-ZRH worked in the past for (I believe?) Crossair, using ERJ145s. I'm not sure why the service was ultimately dropped, though.
 
md90fan
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RE: Most Unprofitable Routes Of Recent Times

Sat Jan 14, 2006 2:53 pm

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 18):
MPM

Maputo, Mozambique right?

Quoting Sabena332 (Reply 21):
How about DUS-PEK and DUS-PVG?

who flew this? LTU or LH?
http://www.devanwells.blogspot.com/
 
kevin752
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RE: Most Unprofitable Routes Of Recent Times

Sat Jan 14, 2006 3:49 pm

Interesting post. I liked seeing all these routes that I never knew existed. I find UAL LAX-SNA kind of weird eventhough it is skywest who supplies the aircraft. I could drive from LAX to SNA faster if there was no traffic on the 405. Well UA must see something in it because they are still opperating it. If anyone can explain why it still exists that would be cool. Thanx

Kevin752
"Keep Climbing"
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: Most Unprofitable Routes Of Recent Times

Sat Jan 14, 2006 4:17 pm

AKL-SYD/BNE/MEL - For any carrier not operating it as an extension of a longhaul flight. It is terribly unprofitable because of the competition.
Flown to 120 Airports in 44 Countries on 73 Operators. Visited 55 Countries and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
DTManiac
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RE: Most Unprofitable Routes Of Recent Times

Sun Jan 15, 2006 2:36 am

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 44):
who flew this? LTU or LH?

LTU operated these routes, but I think they had to cancel them recently due to low load factors. The yields probably werent very high either considering their relatively low fares.

Frederik
Gig 'em Aggies!!!
 
jetbluefan1
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RE: Most Unprofitable Routes Of Recent Times

Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:30 am

Quoting Stirling (Reply 40):
Just think about it for a moment...all the airlines that fly into both Las Vegas and Florida...you're saying money can't be made into those markets?

jetBlue to Florida?

Southwest to Vegas?

2 airlines better at making money than most.

Just because a flight is leisure, doesn't mean it cannot produce a profitable yield.

Exactly.

JetBlue's most profitable route is JFK-FLL, and JFK-LAS is also an amazing performer for them.

I'm not sure which routes are the most profitable for WN, but considering that they have a huge presence in both LAS and Florida, they must be money-making destinations.

Remember that even though both Florida and Las Vegas are huge leisure destinations, there are many last-minute bookings at higher fare buckets. In addition, load factors to/from both Florida and LAS are consistently high on any day of the week. Therefore, while there may be low fares to these destinations (advanced bookings), the airline can make up for it through volume. You can't necessarily say that about Oregon or Minnesota.

JetBluefan1
 
Fly2CHC
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RE: Most Unprofitable Routes Of Recent Times

Sun Jan 15, 2006 6:23 pm

Interesting question - would any EK routes be making a loss???

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