aircanada014
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AC 777-200LR Or 300ER From YYZ-LAX-SYD?

Sun Feb 12, 2006 4:20 pm

Hello all

First of all we all know AC will be using B777-200LR next year in early summer 2007 for YYZ to LAX to SYD routing. Since everyone has their own favourite a/c to fly and a wishful thinking which a/c they want to see on the route. What would you like to see on the AC's new route to SYD, B777-200LR or B777-300ER? I would like to see AC using the 777-300ER.

comments are appreciate please.
 
thepilot
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RE: AC 777-200LR Or 300ER From YYZ-LAX-SYD?

Sun Feb 12, 2006 5:10 pm

I would say the 773ER. The 200LR should be used on a long non-stop flight, and I don't think YYZ-LAX-SYD merits the LR.
From YVR
 
planecrazy2
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RE: AC 777-200LR Or 300ER From YYZ-LAX-SYD?

Sun Feb 12, 2006 6:13 pm

The 773ER for sure. It truly is the king of the 777 family.
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N1120A
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RE: AC 777-200LR Or 300ER From YYZ-LAX-SYD?

Sun Feb 12, 2006 6:48 pm

Well, I am betting that if the loads are there for them, AC will switch over to the 773ER. I am just happy that widebody service will return to the LAX-YYZ route. Then again, I think that LAX-MEL would be the better route for them to go after given the lack of competition (only 1x non-stop from QF per day as opposed to as many as 5x between QF and UA). They will have a higher CASM on the route than either QF or UA but they will be able to sell fewer seats and at a lower yield since they only have 2 classes.

[Edited 2006-02-12 10:50:00]
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sunrisevalley
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RE: AC 777-200LR Or 300ER From YYZ-LAX-SYD?

Sun Feb 12, 2006 11:51 pm

Quoting AirCanada014 (Thread starter):
First of all we all know AC will be using B777-200LR next year in early summer 2007 for YYZ to LAX to SYD routing.

Can you provide an authority for the statement that this service will be via LAX?
 
kiwiandrew

RE: AC 777-200LR Or 300ER From YYZ-LAX-SYD?

Sun Feb 12, 2006 11:58 pm

Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 4):
Can you provide an authority for the statement that this service will be via LAX?

RE: AC To Fly YYZ-LAX-SYD In '07 (by AirCanada014 Jan 29 2006 in Civil Aviation)#ID2577126

http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive/January2006/25/c0761.html
 
FLYACYYZ
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RE: AC 777-200LR Or 300ER From YYZ-LAX-SYD?

Mon Feb 13, 2006 12:48 am

Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 4):
Can you provide an authority for the statement that this service will be via LAX?

This is the route authority that company has applied for, which has been well documented in several press releases.

Quoting AirCanada014 (Thread starter):
What would you like to see on the AC's new route to SYD, B777-200LR or B777-300ER?

I think it all depends on the delivery schedule of the aircraft. It's my understanding (through marketing), that it will be the 777-200LR. The 777-300ER's are Europe bound AFAIK. (LHR/FRA/CDG)
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longhauler
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RE: AC 777-200LR Or 300ER From YYZ-LAX-SYD?

Mon Feb 13, 2006 12:51 am

Quoting FLYACYYZ (Reply 6):
The 777-300ER's are Europe bound AFAIK.

And west coast Canada to eastern Asia.
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krisyyz
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RE: AC 777-200LR Or 300ER From YYZ-LAX-SYD?

Mon Feb 13, 2006 1:32 am

The 773ER will be basically taking over ops from the old B744 Combies. YYZ - LHR, FRA and YVR - NRT. With only 3 B773ERs initially, AC will only use them on their few high capacity- long haul routes. But I could see them fly YUL - LHR, and some south American and Asian flights out of YYZ.

I would be interested to see if AC firms its options, how many B773ER will be included.

Any knows the seating and class configs for the new T7s?

Krisyyz
 
moose1226
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RE: AC 777-200LR Or 300ER From YYZ-LAX-SYD?

Mon Feb 13, 2006 2:33 am

Couldn't the 772LR just do YYZ-SYD nonstop and avoid the US immigration headaches?
 
Cruiser
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RE: AC 777-200LR Or 300ER From YYZ-LAX-SYD?

Mon Feb 13, 2006 2:51 am

Quoting KrisYYZ (Reply 8):
With only 3 B773ERs initially

AC have ordered 4 x 773ER's and 12 772LR's in their initial order. The other 777's are purchase rights, which may become firm orders...although, because they are only Purchase Rights, I suspect that only a few will ever see the fleet. That said, AC is probably just waiting to see how the 777's are suited to the AC network.

James
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sebring
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RE: AC 777-200LR Or 300ER From YYZ-LAX-SYD?

Mon Feb 13, 2006 2:59 am

Quoting Moose1226 (Reply 9):
Couldn't the 772LR just do YYZ-SYD nonstop and avoid the US immigration headaches?




With the maximum number of extra tanks, it could cover the distance, but you don't fly planes just to cover distance, you fly them to make money, and a Toronto-Sydney route at this juncture would be a dubious commercial proposition. The Los Angeles stop is meant to bolster the commercial capability of the route by topping up with some higher-yielding traffic. I can think of a half-dozen new long-range routes AC would contemplate with a 772-LR before Toronto-Sydney, like Toronto-Jobourg, or Toronto-Bombay. There would also be labor issues, since a Toronto-Sydney flight would fall under the parametres of ultra long haul flying (ULH). ULH rules have yet to be designed at AC. Toronto-Bombay would not be ULH, just short of it. Maybe if the Canada-Australia market grows some, there will be a Toronto-Sydney nonstop in a decade.
 
FLYACYYZ
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RE: AC 777-200LR Or 300ER From YYZ-LAX-SYD?

Mon Feb 13, 2006 3:00 am

Quoting KrisYYZ (Reply 8):
The 773ER will be basically taking over ops from the old B744 Combies. YYZ - LHR, FRA and YVR - NRT.

The 74E's never operated into NRT. Traditionally the 744 Combi's flew:

AC872/3 YYZ-FRA-YYZ
AC856/7 YYZ-LHR-YYZ
AC870/1 YUL-CDG-YUL

These were in addition to some periodic transcon runs:
YYZ/YVR/YYZ (Ad Hoc equipment subs)
YYZ/LAX/YYZ (Upon delivery in 1992)

In addition 2 777F's are on order presumably to replace (or supplement) the Gemini/World Cargo contracts.
Above and Beyond
 
FLYACYYZ
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AC//YYZ-SEA 2nd FLT -- First E190?

Mon Feb 13, 2006 3:05 am

Quoting Sebring (Reply 11):
I can think of a half-dozen new long-range routes AC would contemplate with a 772-LR before Toronto-Sydney, like Toronto-Jobourg, or Toronto-Bombay.

Exactly.

Quoting Sebring (Reply 11):
There would also be labor issues, since a Toronto-Sydney flight would fall under the parametres of ultra long haul flying (ULH). ULH rules have yet to be designed at AC.

Actually ULH paramaters cover YYZ-HKG & the previously flown YYZ-DEL route, in terms of supernumerary crew members as well as crew rest issues. YYZ-SYD would be ultra, ultra long haul.
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chrisa330
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RE: AC 777-200LR Or 300ER From YYZ-LAX-SYD?

Mon Feb 13, 2006 3:20 am

Quoting Cruiser (Reply 10):
AC have ordered 4 x 773ER's and 12 772LR's in their initial order. The other 777's are purchase rights, which may become firm orders...although, because they are only Purchase Rights, I suspect that only a few will ever see the fleet. That said, AC is probably just waiting to see how the 777's are suited to the AC network.

Interesting to see the order mix change. Originally it was 3 773ERs and 13 772LRs.
 
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longhauler
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RE: AC 777-200LR Or 300ER From YYZ-LAX-SYD?

Mon Feb 13, 2006 4:14 am

Quoting Moose1226 (Reply 9):
Couldn't the 772LR just do YYZ-SYD nonstop and avoid the US immigration headaches?

LAX was chosen as it would also serve as a hub. While YYZ-LAX can certainly support a B777, there are other markets which will connect to the outbound flight to/from LAX-SYD: YVR-LAX, YEG-LAX, YYC-LAX, YWG-LAX, YOW-LAX and YUL-LAX were all mentioned, and would connect with the LAX-SYD leg.
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AC773
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RE: AC 777-200LR Or 300ER From YYZ-LAX-SYD?

Mon Feb 13, 2006 6:46 am

Quoting LongHauler (Reply 15):
there are other markets which will connect to the outbound flight to/from LAX-SYD: YVR-LAX, YEG-LAX, YYC-LAX, YWG-LAX, YOW-LAX and YUL-LAX were all mentioned, and would connect with the LAX-SYD leg.

I would have thought a hub at YVR would be a better idea. YYZ-YVR-SYD perhaps?
Better to be nouveau than never to have been riche at all.
 
FLYACYYZ
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RE: AC 777-200LR Or 300ER From YYZ-LAX-SYD?

Mon Feb 13, 2006 7:30 am

I think all factors were considered here. The is a large proportion of high end premium traffic between YYZ & LAX. It is also a heavy and profitable cargo route, as evidenced by the added lift provided by Gemini/World MD-11's. Given the number of Qantas flights ex LAX and the volume of traffic to SYD, it bolsters the presence of Star Alliance on the route. Hopefully all regulatory approvals will be received.
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SFORunner
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RE: AC 777-200LR Or 300ER From YYZ-LAX-SYD?

Mon Feb 13, 2006 10:22 am

Quoting LongHauler (Reply 15):
LAX was chosen as it would also serve as a hub

And also *is* already a hub for UA.
 
gigneil
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RE: AC 777-200LR Or 300ER From YYZ-LAX-SYD?

Mon Feb 13, 2006 10:26 am

Quoting KrisYYZ (Reply 8):
But I could see them fly YUL - LHR

Surely you mean YUL-CDG.
 
yyzacguy
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RE: AC 777-200LR Or 300ER From YYZ-LAX-SYD?

Mon Feb 13, 2006 3:37 pm

Does that mean that YVR HNL SYD is STOPPED or will AC still do that flight with 3 flights going into SYD
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ZK-NBT
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RE: AC 777-200LR Or 300ER From YYZ-LAX-SYD?

Mon Feb 13, 2006 5:22 pm

Quoting YYZACGUY (Reply 20):
Does that mean that YVR HNL SYD is STOPPED or will AC still do that flight with 3 flights going into SYD

That will be stopped in favour of a non stop YVR-SYD and a YYZ-LAX-SYD service, so 2 daily flights to SYD.

I maybe wrong but I thought they would use the 773ER's on the YYZ-LAX-SYD service.
 
krisyyz
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RE: AC 777-200LR Or 300ER From YYZ-LAX-SYD?

Mon Feb 13, 2006 11:31 pm

Quoting FLYACYYZ (Reply 12):
The 74E's never operated into NRT. Traditionally the 744 Combi's flew

Sorry, I should of said B744s.The combies never flew Pacific ops, but the ex-Canadian B744s did.

Quoting Cruiser (Reply 10):
Quoting KrisYYZ (Reply 8):
With only 3 B773ERs initially

AC have ordered 4 x 773ER's and 12 772LR's in their initial order

That’s interesting! According to Boeing its 4x773ER, but according the AC's web site its 3 x 773ERs. Whats that about?

Krisyyz
 
Cruiser
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RE: AC 777-200LR Or 300ER From YYZ-LAX-SYD?

Tue Feb 14, 2006 12:05 am

Quoting KrisYYZ (Reply 22):
That’s interesting! According to Boeing its 4x773ER, but according the AC's web site its 3 x 773ERs. Whats that about?

About two weeks ago, AC changed their order make-up. Its just that the AC website is not up to date, or you are looking in an older presentation. I was curious to see who would pick up on it when I said it...because there was nothing really said about this on the forums.

James
Leahy on Per Seat Costs: "Have you seen the B-2 fly-by at almost US$1bn a copy? It has only 2 seats!"
 
krisyyz
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RE: AC 777-200LR Or 300ER From YYZ-LAX-SYD?

Tue Feb 14, 2006 12:43 am

Quoting Cruiser (Reply 23):

Great news! I guess AC is already seeing more room for higher-capacity planes in its fleet.

I guess Boeing is pretty flexible on its ordering, AC is still playing with its orders 3 months after it got signed. I wonder if Boeing is going to make AC pay for an extra ER or will they just slap an LR price tag on a T7-300ER?

Krisyyz
 
Cruiser
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RE: AC 777-200LR Or 300ER From YYZ-LAX-SYD?

Tue Feb 14, 2006 2:13 am

Quoting KrisYYZ (Reply 24):
I guess Boeing is pretty flexible on its ordering, AC is still playing with its orders 3 months after it got signed. I wonder if Boeing is going to make AC pay for an extra ER or will they just slap an LR price tag on a T7-300ER?

AC probably had this exact case in the terms and conditions of the order.

Make no mistake, it probably cost AC to make the switch, but how much, I don't know! I know in construction, as soon as you change one thing, be prepared to get a HUGE bill for the change.

James
Leahy on Per Seat Costs: "Have you seen the B-2 fly-by at almost US$1bn a copy? It has only 2 seats!"
 
N1120A
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RE: AC 777-200LR Or 300ER From YYZ-LAX-SYD?

Tue Feb 14, 2006 2:26 am

Quoting Cruiser (Reply 25):
AC probably had this exact case in the terms and conditions of the order.

Make no mistake, it probably cost AC to make the switch, but how much, I don't know! I know in construction, as soon as you change one thing, be prepared to get a HUGE bill for the change.

There is no "huge" bill for the change (at least not any more huge than an airplane already costs). Contracts for the sale of airplanes are very firm and governed in this case by the CISG. The deal clearly lays out the price paid for each type, whether an option or firm order.
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HanginOut
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RE: AC 777-200LR Or 300ER From YYZ-LAX-SYD?

Tue Feb 14, 2006 3:08 am

Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 21):
That will be stopped in favour of a non stop YVR-SYD and a YYZ-LAX-SYD service, so 2 daily flights to SYD.

I maybe wrong but I thought they would use the 773ER's on the YYZ-LAX-SYD service.

IIRC, There's been some talk of possibly having a YVR-MEL service as well. Maybe the ideal flights for AC would be YYZ-LAX-SYD, YVR-SYD (non-stop), and YVR-HNL-MEL. So instead of two daily flights from YVR to SYD, you could switch one over to MEL.
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Cruiser
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RE: AC 777-200LR Or 300ER From YYZ-LAX-SYD?

Tue Feb 14, 2006 3:15 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 26):
There is no "huge" bill for the change (at least not any more huge than an airplane already costs). Contracts for the sale of airplanes are very firm and governed in this case by the CISG. The deal clearly lays out the price paid for each type, whether an option or firm order.

In this given case, the 773ER is about 10% more expensive (roughly...). By huge bill, I would expect Boeing to charge approximately 13-15% more for the change/amendment to the contract (if there was no provision in the original contract to change the order makeup).

As I said previously, the option of changing the order makeup MAY have been written into the original contract...but we do not know. If it wasn't, then Boeing will not make the change for free, and would probably charge more than the difference that was stated in the contract.

James
Leahy on Per Seat Costs: "Have you seen the B-2 fly-by at almost US$1bn a copy? It has only 2 seats!"
 
sebring
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RE: AC 777-200LR Or 300ER From YYZ-LAX-SYD?

Tue Feb 14, 2006 3:41 am

The contract, with blacked out sections, is public and readily available. We posted the link here two weeks ago. It refers to an as-yet undetermined split between the two derivatives, so as of now, there would be no penalty for switching since no definitive split was made. A couple of months from now, that may change.
 
beechnut
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RE: AC 777-200LR Or 300ER From YYZ-LAX-SYD?

Tue Feb 14, 2006 3:43 am

Quoting KrisYYZ (Reply 22):
Sorry, I should of said B744s.The combies never flew Pacific ops, but the ex-Canadian B744s did.

This is false. I've flown AC trans-Pacific at least once a year in the period 1995-2002; at least once yearly to SEL & back, occasionally from KIX/NRT to YVR/YYZ, and once YVR-HKG-YVR.

I've flown at least two flights YVR-SEL-YVR on AC74Es, and also flew the famous checkerboard into HKG (and back) on an AC74E. AC also flew 747-200 Combis to SEL during the early years of the route. When the A340s were delivered the 74Es went over to the Atlantic. Remember pre-merger AC did not have any larger capacity aircraft than the 767-300, of which they had only 6 (until the CP merger), other than the 747s (after retirement of the L1011s three of which were taken out of mothballs back in that era for a couple of years but for domestic ops only). The 100s obviously couldn't do trans-Pacific that well but when AC was awarded rights to SEL and HKG they started with the 200 combis, upgraded to the 74Es and eventually downgauged to the A340 (and then to the 763, and now back to the A340).

Beech
 
ikramerica
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RE: AC 777-200LR Or 300ER From YYZ-LAX-SYD?

Tue Feb 14, 2006 4:12 am

Quoting FLYACYYZ (Reply 17):
The is a large proportion of high end premium traffic between YYZ & LAX. It is also a heavy and profitable cargo route

That explains YYZ-LAX then. The 772LR, even without optional tanks, can carry quite a bit of cargo on top of a full load of pax. One would expect the 772LR to have a similar sized premium cabin to the 773ER, but with fewer Y seats. Combine those two and you get the ideal jet for YYZ-LAX-SYD. While QF is barely able to carry cargo and filling 744s to make the SYD-LAX route work, AC can carry a full load of cargo and premium traffic, take connections from all over Canada (airports with prescreening for the USA, most likely), and fly to SYD with a much higher profit margin, even if they undercut on fares.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
FLYACYYZ
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RE: AC 777-200LR Or 300ER From YYZ-LAX-SYD?

Tue Feb 14, 2006 4:21 am

Quoting BeechNut (Reply 30):
This is false. I've flown AC trans-Pacific at least once a year in the period 1995-2002; at least once yearly to SEL & back, occasionally from KIX/NRT to YVR/YYZ, and once YVR-HKG-YVR.

Picky, picky A.netters
 Yeah sure
One has to be so careful with their terminology. I pointed out that TRADITIONALLY, the 74E's were dedicated on the 3 mentioned flights. Not to say though that they didn't show up occasionally on other routes because of line maintenance or equipment substitutions.

I remember having operated a 74E for a mechanical 319 with 59 passengers between YYZ & MIA (in the days when jet fuel was economical), and between YYZ & TLV during a high holiday and heavy loads.
Above and Beyond
 
sebring
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RE: AC 777-200LR Or 300ER From YYZ-LAX-SYD?

Tue Feb 14, 2006 4:52 am

It should also be pointed out that AC has swap-out rights that would allow it to swap 772LR orders for 773ER orders, without penality, providing the change is made well in advance of construction beginning on that unit. Therefore, one can presume that the fourth 773ER was achieved with a swap.
 
dalecary
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RE: AC 777-200LR Or 300ER From YYZ-LAX-SYD?

Tue Feb 14, 2006 6:34 am

Quoting Sebring (Reply 33):
It should also be pointed out that AC has swap-out rights that would allow it to swap 772LR orders for 773ER orders, without penality, providing the change is made well in advance of construction beginning on that unit. Therefore, one can presume that the fourth 773ER was achieved with a swap.

Yes, they had 13 772LR, 2 77F and 3 773ER on order. This has now been converted to 12 772LR, 2 77F and 4 773ER. I still find it very interesting that AC's 772LR/773ER ratio would be opposite to most people's expectations. My info was very good last year when I was told the 772LR would make up the bulk of the 777 order.
 
beechnut
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RE: AC 777-200LR Or 300ER From YYZ-LAX-SYD?

Tue Feb 14, 2006 8:40 am

Quoting FLYACYYZ (Reply 32):
One has to be so careful with their terminology. I pointed out that TRADITIONALLY, the 74E's were dedicated on the 3 mentioned flights. Not to say though that they didn't show up occasionally on other routes because of line maintenance or equipment substitutions.

They didn't show up "occasionally". They were the regularly assigned equipment on YVR-SEL and YVR-HKG; when AC was awarded those routes they were just about the only suitable equipment (payload/range). When A340 deliveries began they were shifted to the other pond.

As I said I used to travel to SEL very frequently...

Beech.

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