coerj
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Largest Cities Without Hubs

Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:02 am

What are the largest cities without an airline hub or reasonable focus city operation?

What are the smallest cities with a hub or reasonable focus city operation?
 
RobertS975
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RE: Largest Cities Without Hubs

Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:05 am

Is it just me, or is this question kind of convoluted? If a city is not a hub but large enough for one or more carrriers to have quite a bit of service, does that make it a focus city?

Boston comes to mind... really nobody's hub, but provided with quite a bit of service by DL, AA, B6 and US.
 
coerj
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RE: Largest Cities Without Hubs

Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:16 am

Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 1):
Boston comes to mind... really nobody's hub, but provided with quite a bit of service by DL, AA, B6 and US.

While boston is not monopolized by any airline such as ATL or DFW, it still has major focus city operations even including international service with AA.

I could consider San Antonio as a large city without hub service because it has a huge population but no airline has considered creating a hub due to the super hubs in IAH and DFW.
 
RobertS975
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RE: Largest Cities Without Hubs

Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:27 am

I guess I don't understand why you are excluding what you call focus city operations... doesn't that simply mean that there is a lot of business that comes with a "large" city.
 
N353SK
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RE: Largest Cities Without Hubs

Fri Jul 28, 2006 1:03 am

I'm pretty sure SAN is the answer.
 
Evan767
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RE: Largest Cities Without Hubs

Fri Jul 28, 2006 1:12 am

Quoting COERJ (Thread starter):
What are the largest cities without an airline hub or reasonable focus city operation?

SAN? Does SW have BWI? Not many of these left..

Quoting COERJ (Thread starter):
What are the smallest cities with a hub or reasonable focus city operation?

SLC, CVG, CLE, PDX?, SJU?
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
coerj
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RE: Largest Cities Without Hubs

Fri Jul 28, 2006 1:22 am

Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 3):

A focus city is a city served by an airline with other destinations besides the airline's hubs. EWR is not a focus city for UA because they only serve ORD, IAD, DEN, SFO, etc. which are their hubs. SEA is a focus city for UA because in addition to their hubs they also serve HNL, ANC, NRT, etc.

The question is saying what are the largest cities that aren't a hub or focus city for an airline. And what are the smallest cities that are a hub or focus city for an airline.

Largest cities without hub or focus city:

San Antonio
Nashville (SW has large operations but they don't consider it a hub)
Columbus
Austin
Jacksonville
San Diego

Smallest cities with a hub or focus city:

Milwaukee
Cincinnati
Orlando
Indianapolis
Pittsburgh
 
RobertS975
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RE: Largest Cities Without Hubs

Fri Jul 28, 2006 1:23 am

Anyone remember when DAY was a hub for Piedmont?
 
burnsie28
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RE: Largest Cities Without Hubs

Fri Jul 28, 2006 1:49 am

Quoting COERJ (Reply 6):
San Antonio

Doesn't UA have a focus city there now.

Quoting COERJ (Reply 6):
Columbus

Delta flies routes to florida, and NW does seasonally a Sat only flight CMH-MCO.
 
ssides
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RE: Largest Cities Without Hubs

Fri Jul 28, 2006 1:51 am

This question comes up at least once a month. General consensus is SAN and BOS.
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
AADC10
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RE: Largest Cities Without Hubs

Fri Jul 28, 2006 2:12 am

How about Los Angeles? UA claims it as a hub, but their operations are only slightly larger than AA and WN carries more domestic passengers. I believe that UA was actually planning to create a hub at LAX and started marketing and signing corporate contracts calling it a hub, but the 1997 Asian financial crisis, along with LA refusing to add a new runway prevented a true hub from being formed. LAX is more like a big focus city. O&D is large and connecting traffic is small for a "hub." LAX is a hub if you believe UA. LGB is dominated by B6, but it does not operate like a hub nor does B6 call it such.

The same case could be made for New York, although several airlines claim it as a hub. There are probably some huge cities in the developing world and secondary cities in Europe that do not have hubs.

[Edited 2006-07-27 19:31:53]
 
mtnwest1979
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RE: Largest Cities Without Hubs

Fri Jul 28, 2006 2:21 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 8):
Quoting COERJ (Reply 6):
San Antonio



Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 8):
Doesn't UA have a focus city there now.

No, but Trans States has a small one, they just happen to have the UA code attached. But not a sizable operation to consider much of a 'focus city'.

I would say SAN and SAT, both over 1,000,000 pop (2000 census, city limits), are two biggest. BOS is only just under 600,000. CMH is even bigger than that (over 700,000).

[Edited 2006-07-27 19:22:07]
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
 
ssides
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RE: Largest Cities Without Hubs

Fri Jul 28, 2006 2:22 am

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 10):
LAX is more like a big focus city. O&D is large and connecting traffic is small for a "hub." LAX is a hub if you believe UA.

There is no definition for a "hub." If an airline considers an airport a "hub," it's a hub. LAX is a hub.

But, your comment shows why the question here is really irrelevant. You could easily make an argument that the two largest air markets in the world -- New York and Los Angeles -- do not have hub airports. This is because their location is simply ill-suited for a hub. ORD, DFW, STL, and MEM are all hubs because they are conveniently located in the middle of the country. JFK and LAX don't have this presence. They don't really need it, however, because their O&D markets are more than sufficient to create a significant amount of diverse air traffic.
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
AADC10
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RE: Largest Cities Without Hubs

Fri Jul 28, 2006 2:49 am

Quoting Ssides (Reply 12):
There is no definition for a "hub." If an airline considers an airport a "hub," it's a hub. LAX is a hub.

There does seem to be a double edged sword related to declaring a hub. It is good for sales and marketing because you can sell corporate contracts in that city and say that since it is a hub, there are flight to many destinations. It is bad for the finance side, because investors and bankers see hubs as an expense and they do not want to see new ones added.

Incidently during UA's Ch. 11, there was pressure to kill a hub, either IAD or DEN. LAX was not really on the table because the creditors did not see it as a real hub either.
 
SK A340
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RE: Largest Cities Without Hubs

Fri Jul 28, 2006 2:50 am

Quoting COERJ (Thread starter):
What are the smallest cities with a hub or reasonable focus city operation?

FI has it's hub at KEF, Keflavik, a very small city. I know it serves Reykjavik, but that is also a rather small city, some 200,000+ inhabitants.

/Micke
 
san747
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RE: Largest Cities Without Hubs

Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:18 am

I would say WN has a focus city operation at SAN. They fly 100 flights per day, 34% of SAN's operations, and they fly to I think 16 destinations... I think that qualifies for a focus city unless I'm wrong...
Scotty doesn't know...
 
rwsea
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RE: Largest Cities Without Hubs

Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:23 am

Quoting MtnWest1979 (Reply 11):
would say SAN and SAT, both over 1,000,000 pop (2000 census, city limits), are two biggest. BOS is only just under 600,000. CMH is even bigger than that (over 700,000).

Again, people continually bring up these statistics (city population) like they matter. All that matters when looking at the size of a market is the metro population. According to these statistics, ATL with a population of under 500k is 1/2 the size of SAT. Add in the metro and the population increases to over 4 million, while SAT stays around 1M. Seattle is around 600k in the city, but 3.5M in the surrounding area. You really have to look at a metropolitan area and the trade area of the airport if you want a valid comparison.

According to your statistics, SAT is a bigger city and should have more service than BOS, ATL, or SEA. See the problem with this argument?
 
krje1980
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RE: Largest Cities Without Hubs

Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:23 am

In Europe Berlin comes to mind. It is the capital of Germany as well as the largest city in the country. Still, the city has no hub, and hardly any long-haul flights connect directly there. You would have to go through Frankfurt or Munich for that (or, perhaps, Dusseldorf).
 
b6sea
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RE: Largest Cities Without Hubs

Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:55 am

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 5):
PDX

No hub or focus city at PDX... that I can think of. I know AS has some operations there but they wouldn't call it a focus city i don't think. QX MAYBE.

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 5):
SJU?

Pretty big city... Wikipedia says it has about 2 Million inhabitants in its metro area. And, with a couple very minor exceptions, it's the only major airport on the island of Puerto Rico, which has right around 4 million inhabitants, so I would say if anything that it's a pretty big airport.

Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 7):
Doesn't UA have a focus city there now

My thoughts exactly...

-Chans
 
N1120A
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RE: Largest Cities Without Hubs

Fri Jul 28, 2006 4:19 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 8):
Doesn't UA have a focus city there now.

United Express/Trans States, but the point is still made

If you go by metro area population and cachement, MSY is a rather big one without a hub or focus
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
bnamaxx
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RE: Largest Cities Without Hubs

Fri Jul 28, 2006 4:55 am

Quoting COERJ (Reply 6):
Largest cities without hub or focus city:

San Antonio
Nashville (SW has large operations but they don't consider it a hub)
Columbus
Austin
Jacksonville
San Diego

Theoretically, WN does not have "hub" cities, or so they say, right? And they DO consider BNA a focus city, although they haven't really done much in the way of expansion here recently. They did add a number of frequencies to existing destinations in the spring, but they also cut service to several destinations altogether and reduced in others. They have been consistent at around 85 departures daily for quite a few years. That used to put BNA in their top 10, but I doubt it now.

I agree it's somewhat pointless to differentiate between what is a large and small city and what is a hub and what isn't. Having lived for many years in Dallas, I can attest that bigger is not always better. Yes DFW was built with O & D in mind. As a very frequent user of the airport, it WAS easy to get to the plane, but does it really matter when you have to put up with the often insufferable boarding to takeoff times and v.v? What is the point of flying DFW-AUS when the ground time is longer than the flight? Forget the miles. Since moving, I've connected at DFW many times and it isn't too bad now. I will still always remember the days awaiting flights and watching people deboard aircraft. You could always tell those who were connecting because they usually had that look of panic in their eyes. I'll take my dinky little airport over a major hub any day.
 
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ERJ170
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RE: Largest Cities Without Hubs

Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:01 am

Quoting COERJ (Reply 6):
Largest cities without hub or focus city:

San Antonio
Nashville (SW has large operations but they don't consider it a hub)
Columbus
Austin
Jacksonville
San Diego

Nashville is DEFINITELY a Southwest hub-esque city.. it is whatever Southwest considers their "hub".. but it is definitely something like that..
San Antonio is a Trans-State United Airlines focus city
Austin is an American Airlines focus city
Columbus is a Delta Airlines focus city
San Diego -- is it an Alaska focus city? it's somebodys..

Jacksonville, I think, is the only one of that list that isn't a focus city.
Aiming High and going far..
 
YULYMX
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RE: Largest Cities Without Hubs

Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:03 am

YUL is a focus city of AC  Smile
 
highflyer9790
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RE: Largest Cities Without Hubs

Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:18 am

Boston gets my vote. very open field for competition if you ask me because no one has a hub there, although a few airlines have a crew base there.
121
 
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ERJ170
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RE: Largest Cities Without Hubs

Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:20 am

Quoting HighFlyer9790 (Reply 23):
Boston gets my vote.

Boston is a US/AA/DL focus city and a B6 hub, I do believe.
Aiming High and going far..
 
mtnwest1979
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RE: Largest Cities Without Hubs

Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:21 am

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 16):
Quoting MtnWest1979 (Reply 11):
would say SAN and SAT, both over 1,000,000 pop (2000 census, city limits), are two biggest. BOS is only just under 600,000. CMH is even bigger than that (over 700,000).



Quoting RwSEA (Reply 16):
Again, people continually bring up these statistics (city population) like they matter. All that matters when looking at the size of a market is the metro population. According to these statistics, ATL with a population of under 500k is 1/2 the size of SAT. Add in the metro and the population increases to over 4 million, while SAT stays around 1M. Seattle is around 600k in the city, but 3.5M in the surrounding area. You really have to look at a metropolitan area and the trade area of the airport if you want a valid comparison.

According to your statistics, SAT is a bigger city and should have more service than BOS, ATL, or SEA. See the problem with this argument?

Well, since the question was 'what cities..', and not Metro area, I just went for the easy pop. figs.
Hell, how about what area code is home to the biggest airline hub, in terms of enplaned , mainline aircraft with only passengers making connections?  Wink
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
 
rootsair
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RE: Largest Cities Without Hubs

Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:25 am

Any large city in russia other than Moscow ...such as St. Petersburg
A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
 
gregarious119
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RE: Largest Cities Without Hubs

Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:27 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 21):
Columbus is a Delta Airlines focus city

Say what?

Columbus used to be a focus city/midwest hub for HP, but Delta wouldn't even think of this with CVG being right down I-71.

Columbus has the capacity to be a great small hub/focus city for someone (read: B6), but right now it's just kind of puttering along.
 
planespotting
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RE: Largest Cities Without Hubs

Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:31 am

here's a good list to use for reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...an_statistical_areas_by_population


and here's a funny, provided by my the managing editor at my newspaper to prove "you can't rely only on wikipedia for a source":

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/50902
Do you like movies about gladiators?
 
coerj
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RE: Largest Cities Without Hubs

Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:46 am

Quoting B6sea (Reply 18):
No hub or focus city at PDX... that I can think of. I know AS has some operations there but they wouldn't call it a focus city i don't think. QX MAYBE.

PDX is a secondary hub for AS. I believe it has the largest operations after SEA even larger than ANC. Together with QX they serve 39 destinations some of which are international. Therefore PDX definitely qualifies for a focus city, and even possibly a hub.

UA and NW have some non-hub routes not truly qualifying for focus city status, but UA flys to a bunch of local cities in Oregon, while NW has a flight to HNL as well as a flight to NRT with continuing service to SIN.
 
Junction
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RE: Largest Cities Without Hubs

Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:49 am

Quoting Gregarious119 (Reply 27):
Columbus used to be a focus city/midwest hub for HP, but Delta wouldn't even think of this with CVG being right down I-71.

DL Connection absorbed every route out of CMH that HP had in their "focus city" network except PHX and LAS.
 
CentPIT
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RE: Largest Cities Without Hubs

Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:46 am

Quoting COERJ (Reply 6):
Milwaukee
Cincinnati
Orlando
Indianapolis
Pittsburgh

I would also include CLE. I have a question, how would the above list appear if it was in order in terms of actual city size?
Pittsburgh International: US Airways---160 daily departures! (52 destinations)
 
YULYMX
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RE: Largest Cities Without Hubs

Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:48 am

Orlando is pretty big airport for not a hub... the bigest city would be PIT who use to be a US air HUB
 
CentPIT
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RE: Largest Cities Without Hubs

Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:00 am

Quoting YULYMX (Reply 32):
Orlando is pretty big airport for not a hub... the bigest city would be PIT who use to be a US air HUB

Thanks man!
Pittsburgh International: US Airways---160 daily departures! (52 destinations)
 
Coronado990
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RE: Largest Cities Without Hubs

Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:49 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 21):
San Diego -- is it an Alaska focus city?

Should be but isn't.

SEA-8 flights
PDX-4 flts
SJD-1 flt
YVR-1 flt
Uncle SAN at your service!
 
CanadianNorth
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RE: Largest Cities Without Hubs

Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:22 am

Air North has its hub at Whitehorse Intl, with the city being home to about 23,000ish. Their maintenance facilities and offices are at the south end of the airport, and they base their entire fleet of 2 737s and I believe 3 HS748s there.


CanadianNorth
What could possibly go wrong?
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Largest Cities Without Hubs

Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:30 am

Quoting CentPIT (Reply 31):
Quoting COERJ (Reply 6):
Milwaukee
Cincinnati
Orlando
Indianapolis
Pittsburgh

I would also include CLE. I have a question, how would the above list appear if it was in order in terms of actual city size?

Likewise I would have to include Salt Lake City on that list since it is smaller than Cleveland or any of the five above named cities. The best definition would be the MSA or even the consolidated or CMSA that the Census Agency uses to define a metro-area market.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
CentPIT
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RE: Largest Cities Without Hubs

Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:36 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 36):
The best definition would be the MSA or even the consolidated or CMSA that the Census Agency uses to define a metro-area market.

Yes, I do agree!
Pittsburgh International: US Airways---160 daily departures! (52 destinations)
 
naritaflyer
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RE: Largest Cities Without Hubs

Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:52 am

Montreal YUL Is the answer. Large city of 3 million without a hub. Even United doesn't fly there.
 
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ERJ170
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RE: Largest Cities Without Hubs

Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:58 am

Quoting Gregarious119 (Reply 27):
Say what?

Columbus used to be a focus city/midwest hub for HP, but Delta wouldn't even think of this with CVG being right down I-71.

Columbus has the capacity to be a great small hub/focus city for someone (read: B6), but right now it's just kind of puttering along.

Per Delta's 2004 Transformation PLan and the city of columbus...

On December 1, 2004 Delta Air Lines will start three daily flights to Hartford, Connecticut and will add an additional Orlando flight from Columbus. Delta CEO Gerald Grinstein recently made this announcement as part of a comprehensive transformation plan that calls for a simplified, more efficient airline designed to improve the customer traveling experience while delivering significant savings. In that announcement, Grinstein labeled Columbus a focus city meaning Port Columbus is an important component of the Delta network.
Aiming High and going far..
 
gregarious119
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RE: Largest Cities Without Hubs

Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:04 pm

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 39):
Grinstein labeled Columbus a focus city meaning Port Columbus is an important component of the Delta network.



Quoting Junction (Reply 30):
DL Connection absorbed every route out of CMH that HP had in their "focus city" network except PHX and LAS.

Thanks for the good info, guys. I stand corrected....surprised, very - but corrected none the less.

I noticed that that statement was from 12-1-04...is their operation still that large today?
 
N1120A
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RE: Largest Cities Without Hubs

Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:15 pm

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 24):
Boston is a US/AA/DL focus city and a B6 hub, I do believe.

The first part is correct but B6's operation is a focus city, not a hub. Their only true hub is JFK

Quoting Naritaflyer (Reply 38):

Montreal YUL Is the answer. Large city of 3 million without a hub. Even United doesn't fly there.

YUL is a secondary connecting hub for Air Canada. Further, United flies there from both IAD and ORD, on United Express E170 aircraft with full domestic service.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
sw733
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RE: Largest Cities Without Hubs

Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:24 pm

Quoting CentPIT (Reply 31):
I have a question, how would the above list appear if it was in order in terms of actual city size?

Not sure exactly, but remember that there is more than just the actual city size - it's the metro area. Case in point: In Missouri, Kansas City is the largest city, but St. Louis is the largest metro population.
 
PavlovsDog
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RE: Largest Cities Without Hubs

Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:46 pm

The Rhine-Ruhr area of Germany has three airports (Cologne, Dusseldorf and Dortmund) none of which is a hub for anybody.

12-14 million people live in the metropolis.
 
san747
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RE: Largest Cities Without Hubs

Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:52 pm

Quoting PavlovsDog (Reply 43):
The Rhine-Ruhr area of Germany has three airports (Cologne, Dusseldorf and Dortmund) none of which is a hub for anybody.

12-14 million people live in the metropolis.

Isn't CGN a Germanwings hub and DUS an LTU hub? And I think Dortmund is an Easyjet focus city, or at least base...
Scotty doesn't know...
 
rampart
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RE: Largest Cities Without Hubs

Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:47 pm

Honolulu's metro population is smaller than all the "small" hub cities listed above, and it hosts both Hawaiian and Aloha (and now Go).

-Rampart
 
boysteve
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RE: Largest Cities Without Hubs

Fri Jul 28, 2006 4:56 pm

Quoting San747 (Reply 44):
Isn't CGN a Germanwings hub

Looking at their website yes, in terms of destinations served it's their largest hub.

Quoting San747 (Reply 44):
and DUS an LTU hub?

I think it is

Quoting San747 (Reply 44):
And I think Dortmund is an Easyjet focus city, or at least base...

It's at least a base...
 
PavlovsDog
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RE: Largest Cities Without Hubs

Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:47 pm

Neither Germanwings nor EasyJet are hub oriented airlines.

In addition neither really has more flights from those airports than does Southwest at many of the US cities mentioned. Rhein-Ruhr is a spoke at best. I can't really see it as a legit hub.
 
jumbopilot
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RE: Largest Cities Without Hubs

Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:25 pm

Quoting Krje1980 (Reply 17):
In Europe Berlin comes to mind. It is the capital of Germany as well as the largest city in the country. Still, the city has no hub, and hardly any long-haul flights connect directly there. You would have to go through Frankfurt or Munich for that (or, perhaps, Dusseldorf).

The surrounding of Berlin is totally weak, there are too less people living there. So there is no potential for an airline and I believe nothing will change after opening the BBI airport in some years.

Quoting PavlovsDog (Reply 43):
The Rhine-Ruhr area of Germany has three airports (Cologne, Dusseldorf and Dortmund) none of which is a hub for anybody. 12-14 million people live in the metropolis.

This is a good example. Actually there must be a hub in the region, but FRA and MUC are too strong to displace. I think this is a result of the German development after WWII. And now it is no longer changeable.
Carpe Diem
 
boysteve
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RE: Largest Cities Without Hubs

Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:43 pm

Quoting PavlovsDog (Reply 47):
Neither Germanwings nor EasyJet are hub oriented airlines

Easyjet have bases from which each aircraft may take several return trips per day to and from. As far as I am aware Dortmund is one of these bases so going back to the threadstarter's question, I would call it a Focus City. As for Germanwings, I stand corrected. I have rechecked their website and although their 'flight routes' page my imply that CGN is a hub, it won't let you through ticket from EDI to say BUD. Therefore it cannot be a hub for PAX to transfer through. However I would still call it a focus city.

http://www3.germanwings.com/

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