phxtravelboy
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Airports "In The Shadow" Of A Bigger Air

Sat Aug 26, 2006 7:26 am

Hi everyone, I have a theory that some of the airports out there really don't get as much service as they could do to the fact they are "in the shadow" of a larger airport close by. I'm not talking about airports within one large metro area such as LA with Ont, Sna, etc.
I'm thinking of Mke and it's proximity to Ord; only 1 hour drive away. Mke has been expanding as of late with a new extension to a concourse, and record pax numbers, but only NW and DL of the "big 6" fly mainline equipment there. Several people from WI drive to Ord for more convenient schedules and these people could be kept in WI if Mke had more service. I think the airlines don't add more service to Mke due to it's proximity to Ord.
I think that to an extent Pdx is in the shadow of Sea, Tus to Phx (where I live), San to Lax. Any others? Agree or disagree?
 
Zudnic
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RE: Airports "In The Shadow" Of A Bigger

Sat Aug 26, 2006 7:30 am

Well, PVD and MHT are so close they market themselves as Boston airports. They serve people located in Boston's south and north suburbs (as well as local city populations) - it seems to me that they both court liesure travelers.
 
Rookinla
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RE: Airports "In The Shadow" Of A Bigger

Sat Aug 26, 2006 7:32 am

Quoting Phxtravelboy (Thread starter):
I think the airlines don't add more service to Mke due to it's proximity to Ord.

Maybe to a small extent but I believe that MKE is adequately served for a city its size. I will however give you that the case for MKE is certainly not helped by having UA and AA both hubbed at ORD and WN having a sizable focus at MDW.
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: Airports "In The Shadow" Of A Bigger

Sat Aug 26, 2006 7:47 am

YOW could definately have more traffic if it werent for YUL or YYZ.

Same thing goes for YEG, with YYC so close.

AK
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HPRamper
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RE: Airports "In The Shadow" Of A Bigger

Sat Aug 26, 2006 10:06 am

DEN-COS
DTW-TOL
PHX-TUS
ELP-LRU
RDU-GSO
CLE-CAK
PHL-ABE
SLC-PVU
LAX-SAN to a degree
 
TPAnx
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RE: Airports "In The Shadow" Of A Bigger

Sat Aug 26, 2006 10:14 am

TPA and PIE..about 15 miles apart.
TPAnx
I read the news today..oh boy
 
flamedude707
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RE: Airports "In The Shadow" Of A Bigger

Sat Aug 26, 2006 10:30 am

Does SJC-SFO count?

bla bla bla, need to make post longer.........
Time you enjoy wasting, is not wasted.
 
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JBo
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RE: Airports "In The Shadow" Of A Bigger

Sat Aug 26, 2006 10:37 am

On a smaller scale, there's MKG (Muskegon, MI) and GRR (Grand Rapids, MI)

For years, there was a more significant disparity between the service at GRR and at MKG. GRR had more mainline aircraft and MKG was always regional. The airports themselves are roughly 50 miles apart.

For years, MKG had the service of three (sometimes four) airlines ... usually to Chicago, Milwaukee, and Detroit. Around 1995 or 1996, American downgraded their operations in GRR from mainline to all-Eagle, and subsequently deemed the Eagle service to MKG redundant and pulled out. Eagle was replaced by Great Lakes, which initially flew their independent operation into MDW, but was quickly changed over to United Express service back into ORD.

Great Lakes lasted until the fall of 2002 when they pulled out of the market (and ultimately the entire region).

Since then MKG has had only the other two airlines - Skyway into MKE and Mesaba into DTW - and has not yet landed a third carrier. In the meantime, GRR has become an increasingly regional market, with more carriers operating RJs rather than mainline, the major exceptions being NW and a handful of UA mainline flights (I also believe DL still has their lone mainline flight into GRR as well).

This is quite possibly an excellent example of the "regionalization" of the industry as far as aircraft utilization goes, and how it can affect smaller airports.

MKG has been sustaining itself well with YX and NW, and many travelers prefer MKG as a smaller airport and easier to get in and out fo than GRR. The downside, though, to MKG is the lack of travel options. However, with Skyway upgrading gradually to the 328JETs, it will only be a matter of time before they replace the BE1s into here and help capacity a fair bit. And with Northwest and Mesaba both on shaky ground as reorganization moves along, if the worst were to happen, MKG would be stuck with one lone carrier, unless they act on getting a third carrier lined up. [Most likely to me would be CO out of CLE since they do offer smaller aircraft - such as CommutAir's 1900s and future Dash-8s] that could get a route started with less dependency on higher numbers than larger aircraft. Another great, though unlikely, coup would be landing US since they left GRR.

It's really anyone's guess as to what the growth of these airports will be as time comes. GRR will always be the larger airport, but whether MKG gets any more service (or any less) is anyone's guess.
I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
 
BigOrange
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RE: Airports "In The Shadow" Of A Bigger

Sat Aug 26, 2006 10:42 am

MAN and LPL although no scouser will admit it!

PHL and ACY

PHL and TTN

PHL and ILG

[Edited 2006-08-26 03:43:23]
 
steeler83
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RE: Airports "In The Shadow" Of A Bigger

Sat Aug 26, 2006 10:53 am

No one said...

IAD,
PHL,
JFK, and PIT...

I guess PIT isn't suffering from the close proximity of those larger markets... It's solely a "decaying money hole" of a market...

Wait... another market in the shadows of PHL, JFK, BWI/IAD even more so than PIT...

M...D...T...

[Edited 2006-08-26 03:55:22]
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MUCFlieger
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RE: Airports "In The Shadow" Of A Bigger

Sat Aug 26, 2006 11:04 am

MHG - FRA
AGB - MUC


..tbc
 
CentPIT
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RE: Airports "In The Shadow" Of A Bigger

Sat Aug 26, 2006 11:26 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 9):
I guess PIT isn't suffering from the close proximity of those larger markets... It's solely a "decaying money hole" of a market...

PIT isn't in the shadows of another airport. I think PIT is in the shadows of US at PHL though. I am by no means saying PIT should be like PHL, I am just saying PIT is no longer in its glory days of being a larger operation than PHL.


PIT is fine...
Pittsburgh International: US Airways---160 daily departures! (52 destinations)
 
usnseallt82
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RE: Airports "In The Shadow" Of A Bigger

Sat Aug 26, 2006 11:33 am

AUS and SAT. Two medium-sized airports that cancel each out and prevent any real expansion.

Then with IAH and DFW in the vicinity, there won't be any real push to try and expand them.
Crye me a river
 
Jano
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RE: Airports "In The Shadow" Of A Bigger

Sat Aug 26, 2006 11:54 am

BTS and VIE. Only about 40km close to each other. BTS - close to 2 mil pax per year. VIE, I guess 15+mil paseengers per year.

There many Slovakians flying via VIE because there are very few network carriers flying to BTS: OK and LH only. Yet, there is a starting stream of Austrians flying from BTS due to NE and FR operating from there.
The Widget Air Line :)
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: Airports "In The Shadow" Of A Bigger

Sat Aug 26, 2006 12:04 pm

MSP and STP. About 6 miles apart. STP is the green area in the upper right corner of this photo.


View Large View Medium
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Photo © Scott Mulhollan



Mark
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mtnwest1979
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RE: Airports "In The Shadow" Of A Bigger

Sat Aug 26, 2006 12:58 pm

Quoting Thenoflyzone (Reply 3):
Same thing goes for YEG, with YYC so close

Well, they are not that close to each other. About like Salt Lake City,UT and Idaho Falls,ID.

I'd add SCK to SFO/OAK, FOE to MCI.
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Airports "In The Shadow" Of A Bigger

Sat Aug 26, 2006 1:12 pm

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 4):
LAX-SAN to a degree

SAN is shadowed by it's terrain which makes it dependent on LA.
 
ua777222
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RE: Airports "In The Shadow" Of A Bigger

Sat Aug 26, 2006 1:23 pm

Quoting Flamedude707 (Reply 6):
Does SJC-SFO count?

No. SJC is in a class of its own with it's own breed of travelers. San Jose to San Francisco is a long drive and with the high-tech industry next door, domestic, and even international, service works fine on it's own. While AA has/will close SJC-NRT, it has been a route that has proved well for AA and one that they wouldn't even try at SFO, let alone their one flight a day at LAX.

Quoting MtnWest1979 (Reply 15):
I'd add SCK to SFO/OAK, FOE to MCI.

SCK is an entirely different breed of airport compared to the two. SFO handles both domestic and international. High Asian routes and trans-pacific with it's handful of European flights. Domestic to about everywhere in the country with CO, F9, UA, AA, and US.

OAK is very much a domestic airport for LLC's. WN and JetBlue find hubs here due to the cheaper cost to fly into OAK over SFO. You will also find Federal Express and UPS hubs here. Shipping is a major traffic form for OAK. Lastly, OAK caters to business travelers. They have two separate runways that, when the weather provides, can be used by all business jets with the ramp just one taxiway over. They also allow ease for cessna's (and other's alike) and also have flight schools in the FBOs. If the price to land at SFO doesn't drive you away, the traffic and airspace factors don't allow this that often. In regards to SCK, AA has service and if I'm correct so will Mexicana.

I apologize for any errors.

Thanks,

Matt
"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
 
stlgph
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RE: Airports "In The Shadow" Of A Bigger

Sat Aug 26, 2006 1:35 pm

St. Louis Lambert presides over Belleville/Mid America.

Indianapolis triumphs over Lafayette receiving pretty much any type of regular commuter express type of service.

Bloomington - Normal has somewhat of a precedence over Champaign Williard. While Champaign & Peoria are still somewhat holding their own, Springfield's airport definitely has lagged, as has Decatur.

Meanwhile while 60 miles apart, I'm sure the proximity of Tampa and St. Petersburg over Sarasota affects Sarasota to an extent.
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ltbewr
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RE: Airports "In The Shadow" Of A Bigger

Sat Aug 26, 2006 1:54 pm

EWR is an airport that was originally the airport for the NY City area (until about 1940 with LGA) then Idlewild/JFK, then EWR came back as a major airport in the early 1990's offering a broad range of international and more USA domestic service than JFK even into today.
 
trndskywrd
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RE: Airports "In The Shadow" Of A Bigger

Sat Aug 26, 2006 2:25 pm

DAB with its proximity to MCO / JAX. The same applies to MLB as well. DAB/MLB certainly have room for more competition but pax will sacrifice the drive to save money.
 
SJCRRPAX
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RE: Airports "In The Shadow" Of A Bigger

Sat Aug 26, 2006 3:26 pm

How about DAL and DFW  rotfl 
 
mainMAN
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RE: Airports "In The Shadow" Of A Bigger

Sat Aug 26, 2006 3:53 pm

Amsterdam and Rotterdam.

Rotterdam is sometimes marketed as Amsterdam/Rotterdam, which surely must drive Rotterdammers nuts.
 
MCIGuy
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RE: Airports "In The Shadow" Of A Bigger

Sat Aug 26, 2006 4:25 pm

MCI - MKC
MKC was once the main airport for KC but it has shorter runways and a large river on two sides. It does get a lot of business traffic because of it's proximity to downtown, but taking off in a 172 to the south can be a little strange on hot day (tall buildings).  Big grin
MCI is a much larger and nicer airport, but it's location isn't all that convenient.
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BDL2DCA
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RE: Airports "In The Shadow" Of A Bigger

Sat Aug 26, 2006 10:01 pm

Quoting Zudnic (Reply 1):
Well, PVD and MHT are so close they market themselves as Boston airports.

Don't forget ORH, which an hour from each PVD, BOS and BDL so therefore, nobody in Central MA will fly out of there. My parents grew up in Auburn, and my grandparents used to fly out of BDL because it was easier to get to BDL than ORH because of the road connections even though it is like 10-15 times the distance.

And I would also add that BDL is in the shadow of BOS and JFK for trans-atlantic service. BDL could easily warrant one or two nonstops to Europe based on the cachement area and the industry in western New England, but because there are no nonstops to Europe, a lot of travelers go to either BOS or JFK to catch a flight rather than making a connection out of BDL.
146,319,320,321,333,343,722,732,733,734,735,73G,738,744,752,762,763,772,ARJ,BE1,CRJ,D9S,D10,DH8,ERJ,E70,F100,S80
 
AUA747
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RE: Airports "In The Shadow" Of A Bigger

Sat Aug 26, 2006 10:10 pm

I would have to say DAB and MCO. Only DL and CO serves DAB. DAB has been struggling to get service of airlines. MCO is less then 1hr drive and the fares out of MCO is most of the time cheaper.
 
stirling
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RE: Airports "In The Shadow" Of A Bigger

Sat Aug 26, 2006 10:53 pm

Quoting Phxtravelboy (Thread starter):
I think that to an extent PDX is in the shadow of SEA

No way.
At over 12 million passengers a year, (And growing) Portland is a self-contained market.

Airlines offer unique services into PDX that are not available out of SEA.

I can't imagine anyone in the Portland Metro, driving the 160 miles to Seattle/Tacoma......why?

NO, Portland does not suffer at all from being close to Seattle; the service is consistent with a market of its size.
Delete this User
 
FWAERJ
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RE: Airports "In The Shadow" Of A Bigger

Sat Aug 26, 2006 11:03 pm

Right now, FWA (my hometown airport) is struggling in the shadow of IND, which is 2 hrs away.

Over the past few years, we've lost a lot of service. First off, we lost AA Eagle to LGA and STL (but gained DFW in the process). Then, we lost US Express due to the PIT downsizing. Next, we lost TZ/C8 service to MDW and IND, which really jacked up fares. And finally, DL's bankruptcy caused us to lose FWA-MCO before the route even started. Granted, we lost LGA due to the slot lottery, and we lost C8 because of Herb's management at TZ (nevermind that FWA-MDW was profitable). But why US couldn't switch the PIT flight to PHL is beyond me, especially given Lincoln Financial's presence in both Philly and the Fort.

We still have some decent service: AA Eagle to ORD and DFW, DL Connection to CVG and (of course) ATL, CO Connection to CLE, NW Airlink to DTW, and UA Express to ORD. As for new service, FWA does has a new incentive plan (TRIP) which offers really good incentives for new and existing carriers. Personally, I could see UA adding DEN service, B6 starting service to JFK, or FL starting service to ATL and MCO.
"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
 
spetouss
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RE: Airports "In The Shadow" Of A Bigger

Sat Aug 26, 2006 11:11 pm

Talk about England for a change, what about Coventry (CVT) and Birmngham (BHX), only 20 miles apart.
 
YLWbased
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RE: Airports "In The Shadow" Of A Bigger

Sat Aug 26, 2006 11:13 pm

what about HKG and MFM
Hong Kong is not China. Not better or worse, just different.
 
TPAnx
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RE: Airports "In The Shadow" Of A Bigger

Sat Aug 26, 2006 11:35 pm

Quoting Bdl2dca (Reply 24):
my grandparents used to fly out of BDL because it was easier to get to BDL than ORH because of the road connections even though it is like 10-15 times the distance.

Methinks service out of BDL probably had a lot more to do with that than access..290 up a couple of exits to the airport isn't THAT bad..Webster Square or Mill Street sure beats an hour drive to BDL.
TPAnx

[Edited 2006-08-26 16:39:09]
I read the news today..oh boy
 
comet4b
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RE: Airports "In The Shadow" Of A Bigger

Sat Aug 26, 2006 11:37 pm

Hi Noflyzone,I may be wrong but I think your comments(tongue in cheek I hope) were totally lost on the masses.So much for general geography knowledge.
 
TPAnx
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RE: Airports "In The Shadow" Of A Bigger

Sat Aug 26, 2006 11:42 pm

Quoting Comet4b (Reply 31):
.So much for general geography knowledge.

Or Canadian airport codes..
TPAnx
I read the news today..oh boy
 
oakjam
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RE: Airports "In The Shadow" Of A Bigger

Sat Aug 26, 2006 11:46 pm

So with the topic Airports in the shadow of bigger Airports, I guess OAK counts cause SFO is only 12 miles away across the bay. OAK gets 14 million passengers while SFO gets 40+ million.
 
flycmh2009
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RE: Airports "In The Shadow" Of A Bigger

Sat Aug 26, 2006 11:53 pm

How about Ohio? Does anyone here think that CMH and DAY are being held back by the hubs at CVG and CLE. There's a strong market for a lot of places out of Columbus. The city has many worldwide and nationally known organizations that could benefit from increased service I'm sure.
 
CentPIT
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RE: Airports "In The Shadow" Of A Bigger

Sun Aug 27, 2006 12:09 am

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 27):
But why US couldn't switch the PIT flight to PHL is beyond me,

The bigger question now is, why don't they add PIT-FWA with 2 daily DH8? The flight would do fine.
Pittsburgh International: US Airways---160 daily departures! (52 destinations)
 
N5716b
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RE: Airports "In The Shadow" Of A Bigger

Sun Aug 27, 2006 12:13 am

Quoting MUCflieger (Reply 10):
No one said...

IAD,
PHL,
JFK, and PIT...

How does ABE fit into this particular theme? Last time I went up to Bethlahem, PA, I had to fly into PHL because ABE was upwards of $200 more. Even with gas prices (and weekend traffic), it was still a bargain.
Bring back the L-1011!
 
PavlovsDog
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RE: Airports "In The Shadow" Of A Bigger

Sun Aug 27, 2006 12:31 am

YNG-Youngstown-Warren Regional Airport in Eastern Ohio serves a metropolitan area of over 700,000. It's a poor rust belt city half-way between Cleveland and Pittsburgh.

Allegiant is the only scheduled carrier to the city with twice weekly service to Orlando Sanford.
 
IdaBoy
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RE: Airports "In The Shadow" Of A Bigger

Sun Aug 27, 2006 12:39 am

I seccond Idaho Falls, Idaho, we loose all kinds of people to SLC, and the Pocatello is in the Idaho Falls shadow. Salt Lake really messes with Southern Idaho service.
 
n9512c
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RE: Airports "In The Shadow" Of A Bigger

Sun Aug 27, 2006 12:44 am

What about HOU and IAH...?

[Edited 2006-08-26 17:45:42]
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Airports "In The Shadow" Of A Bigger

Sun Aug 27, 2006 12:45 am

Quoting MtnWest1979 (Reply 15):
Well, they are not that close to each other. About like Salt Lake City,UT and Idaho Falls,ID.

A MUCH better example of this is SCL-PVU. Delta's big hub at SLC clearly suppresses PVU's ability to add commercial service. There is demand to do that down in Provo-Orem.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
swf
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RE: Airports "In The Shadow" Of A Bigger

Sun Aug 27, 2006 12:48 am

SWF and.....



EWR-JFK-LGA
BDL
ALB

I've flown from all except ALB for lower fares. A lot of people I know go to ALB.
 
USADreamliner
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RE: Airports "In The Shadow" Of A Bigger

Sun Aug 27, 2006 1:01 am

Quoting JBo (Reply 7):
there's MKG (Muskegon, MI) and GRR (Grand Rapids, MI)

Thank you for posting the three letter code and also the name of the airport.
Most people just use the 3 letter code, and not everybody knows what airport they are talking about.


usadreamliner
 
pillowtester
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RE: Airports "In The Shadow" Of A Bigger

Sun Aug 27, 2006 1:07 am

It's funny that MDW and ORD are so close together, you can literally see them from each other, and yet they both have tremendous, crowded amounts of service, and both have expansion plans suggested every now and then.
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Airports "In The Shadow" Of A Bigger

Sun Aug 27, 2006 1:30 am

Quoting IdaBoy (Reply 38):
I seccond Idaho Falls, Idaho, we loose all kinds of people to SLC, and the Pocatello is in the Idaho Falls shadow. Salt Lake really messes with Southern Idaho service.

SLC makes service to SE viable! I don't think UA would as seriously consider service on EMB-120s or CRJs to either Idaho Falls or Pocatello from DEN as quickly as DL has from SLC. Provo and Ogden are significantly larger population centers, but they are both only about an hour or less driving to/from SLC. I think I see some envy about the service you get when compared with Montana communities further to the north.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
JoKeR
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RE: Airports "In The Shadow" Of A Bigger

Sun Aug 27, 2006 1:32 am

DXB and SHJ, only a few kilometers apart
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Airports "In The Shadow" Of A Bigger

Sun Aug 27, 2006 1:38 am

One other airport that gets overlooked for service due to its proximity to the US border as well as only being two hours south from YYC is Lethbridge (YQL). Being only 2-3 hours from a couple of Montana airports with great service, GTF and FCA/GPI have hindered its chances to get DL Connection service on SkyWest to SLC, a US community to which it has significant cultural, business and religious ties with. Too many people there don't want to pay the extra money a trans-border flight would likely entail I'm so told.

Quoting Thenoflyzone (Reply 3):
Same thing goes for YEG, with YYC so close.

Oh Yes!, The Calgary vs. Edmonton rivalry, aka Alberta Civil War! Nothing beats a Flames vs. Oilers duel! Or dare I say the WWF joining the NHL!  box   fight   hissyfit   laughing   rotfl 
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N908AW
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RE: Airports "In The Shadow" Of A Bigger

Sun Aug 27, 2006 1:42 am

How bout RST/MSP.

As of the study in 2003 (hasn't improved much since then), MSP gets 61% of the RST market.
'Cause you're on ATA again, and on ATA, you're on vacation!
 
rdwelch
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RE: Airports "In The Shadow" Of A Bigger

Sun Aug 27, 2006 2:12 am

I thought someone would have done MIA-FLL by now.

Gus.
They say I have ADD, but they don't understand..Oh look! A chicken!
 
MAH4546
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RE: Airports "In The Shadow" Of A Bigger

Sun Aug 27, 2006 2:20 am

Quoting Rdwelch (Reply 48):
I thought someone would have done MIA-FLL by now.

Why? FLL sees 20M+ passengers a year, has more domestic airlines, and carriers more domestic passengers and domestic O&D than Miami does.
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