scoliodon
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Which Aircraft Is The Most Diffuclt To Land?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:20 am

Hi All,

Seeing the bad landings thread..I was wondering ..under perfectly normal conditions, which aircraft is the most difficult to fly an approach by hand and land ? (I presume it would be one of the heavies..or is it one of the bantamweights?)

Would be great if the pilots out there could throw some light on this...

From what I've read on this forum, the 767 seems to be one hell of an animal to land..is that so?

Thanks for ur input.

Regds
Balki

P.S: I searched for older threads on this topic..but cudn't find any. Pls bear with me if this has been discussed already  Smile
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ckfred
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RE: Which Aircraft Is The Most Diffuclt To Land?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:45 am

A friend of mine, who flies for AA, thinks that it is easy to make a good landing with a 727, but very difficult to make a great landing.

When he was an F/E, there was an F/O that made the softest landings. No one knew that the main gear were on the runway, until the F/O started to put the nose down.

Despite watching the F/O, my friend never figured out the secret to making a great landing in the 727.
 
MD88Captain
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RE: Which Aircraft Is The Most Diffuclt To Land?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:51 am

For me the MD11 was the hardest to land by far. 767 never seemed difficult. The 727 could be landed well almost every time, but it could also bite you. You couldn't take it for granted or you'd prang it. When flying the 727, everyone seemed to have a different technique. MD80's are a bit unstable, but not that difficult to land. 737's are easy.

MD11's sucked to land followed by the 767-200. Everything else lands fine.
 
saab2000
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RE: Which Aircraft Is The Most Diffuclt To Land?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:56 am

I have only landed the CRJ and the SAAB2000 among transport category airplanes. They both have their tricky things, but both can also be greased on. The key to ultra smooth landings on both is a slight crosswind, about 7-10 knots. That way you can put one gear down before the other one and that really tends to have a smoothing effect on the whole thing.

The difference between a real greaser and a seemingly rough landing might only be a couple of inches or knots on the speed.

The CRJ does have to be handled carefully in really strong crosswinds to not dip the wing too much as it has very little clearance on the 50-seat versions.

[Edited 2006-09-12 18:12:32]
smrtrthnu
 
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antoniemey
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RE: Which Aircraft Is The Most Diffuclt To Land?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:56 am

Quoting Scoliodon (Thread starter):
Which Aircraft Is The Most Diffuclt To Land?

The one you haven't been trained on.  Smile
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
 
scoliodon
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RE: Which Aircraft Is The Most Diffuclt To Land?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:11 am

Gr8 guys..thanks for the answers. The MD-11 and the 727 and the CRJ..interesting..

Quoting Antoniemey (Reply 4):
The one you haven't been trained on.

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 
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bucky707
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RE: Which Aircraft Is The Most Diffuclt To Land?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:12 am

Quoting MD88Captain (Reply 2):
MD11's sucked to land followed by the 767-200. Everything else lands fine.

I always thought the 767-200 was easier to land than the -300. Neither one was hard to land, but was not easy to get a super smooth landing like you could on a 757.

I agree. The MD-88 is a bit quirky. The same method does not always produce the same results.

[Edited 2006-09-12 18:13:28]
 
kaukau
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RE: Which Aircraft Is The Most Diffuclt To Land?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:16 am

The HA pilots put down their 767s smooth and pretty! (But they never feel "greased"!)

[Edited 2006-09-12 18:46:50]
 
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Revelation
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RE: Which Aircraft Is The Most Diffuclt To Land?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:33 am

Probably the Gee Bee Racer:



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emseeeye
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RE: Which Aircraft Is The Most Diffuclt To Land?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:37 am

I have spoken to pilots that flew the Mitsubishi MU-2 and I have been told its a real treat to land.
 
legoguy
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RE: Which Aircraft Is The Most Diffuclt To Land?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:39 am

I guess this seems the right thread to ask this question.....

What is it like landing an aircraft? I mean, can you see the runway at all or do you rely complete on instruments, even during good conditions? I would imagine that you can bare see the runway infront of you.
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EI321
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RE: Which Aircraft Is The Most Diffuclt To Land?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:42 am

Quoting MD88Captain (Reply 2):
For me the MD11 was the hardest to land by far

Coincidentally I have heard that the DC10 is a real handful. Would you put it down to these two being so tailheavy?
 
zvezda
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RE: Which Aircraft Is The Most Diffuclt To Land?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:43 am

N1819U was difficult to land.
 
saab2000
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RE: Which Aircraft Is The Most Diffuclt To Land?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 2:01 am

Quoting Legoguy (Reply 10):
I guess this seems the right thread to ask this question.....

What is it like landing an aircraft? I mean, can you see the runway at all or do you rely complete on instruments, even during good conditions? I would imagine that you can bare see the runway infront of you.

It depends on the weather conditions, but pilots tend to land the aircraft using both visual and instrument references. I am looking both in and out to check that the airspeed is where it should be. The visual slope and laterally it is fairly easy to check visually, but airspeed can be way off and you would never know it by looking out the window.

When flying a 'real' ILS down to a low decision altitude, you are 'inside' the plane. Then when getting towards the DA the non-flying pilot is looking out for the needed visual cues (lights, runway environment, etc.). It can be a bit tricky transitioning from monitoring only instruments to looking outside.

I tend to monitor the instruments a lot when 10 miles out visually. Then as you get closer you look more and more at the runway environment. My last instrument/airspeed check is at about 100 feet. Checking airspeed is the biggest thing when visual. Checking everything (speed, altitude, glideslope and localizer deviation, etc.) is important when flying in IMC - Instrument Meteorological Conditions.
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Buyantukhaa
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RE: Which Aircraft Is The Most Diffuclt To Land?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 2:11 am

Quoting Scoliodon (Thread starter):
under perfectly normal conditions, which aircraft is the most difficult to fly an approach by hand and land

What about Concorde?
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MD88Captain
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RE: Which Aircraft Is The Most Diffuclt To Land?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 2:29 am

I land visually with an in and out scan that on references the airspeed and dounut. Mostly the donut (alpha/speed bug). The flare is based on visual cues. On the big ones (767) you start to flare at an altitude callout like 30' and gradually pick up your visual cues with experience. Wind, Wx, Cg, and many other factors mean that it is always different to some small or great extent.
 
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tjwgrr
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RE: Which Aircraft Is The Most Diffuclt To Land?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 2:50 am

Quoting EmSeeEye (Reply 9):
I have spoken to pilots that flew the Mitsubishi MU-2 and I have been told its a real treat to land.

I've heard the same thing.


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AJO
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RE: Which Aircraft Is The Most Diffuclt To Land?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 2:57 am

Without a doubt the Lockheed U-2 ("Dragon Lady"). It only has wheels in the center of the fuselage:


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warreng24
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RE: Which Aircraft Is The Most Diffuclt To Land?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 3:01 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 12):
N1819U was difficult to land.

And the good guys up front did one hell of a job. They deserve all the credit they can get for the number of souls that made it out of there alive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_flight_232
 
kaitak
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RE: Which Aircraft Is The Most Diffuclt To Land?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 3:05 am

Yes, the MD11 is certainly a handful and its record shows that there have been quite a few landing incidents. The 767-300/300ER has also had a few incidents, with American and Alitalia being among those stung.

By contrast, other widebodies - particularly the 777 - seem relatively easy; by all accounts I've heard, the Triple is a joy, but I guess the same thing can be said of all aircraft; plan your approach, flap extension (and yes, gear extension certainly contributes to a smooth landing) and be focused and even an MD11 can give you a decent landing; treat any aircraft casually and it'll bite you back ...
 
saab2000
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RE: Which Aircraft Is The Most Diffuclt To Land?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 3:21 am

One thing most people don't know, including even controllers, is that the CRJ is a Category D aircraft. The approach and landing speeds are similar to those of the MD-11. I have never flown an aircraft as heavy as the MD-11, and I am sure it is a challenge, but I always find it interesting that many people think that the larger an aircraft is, the harder it is to fly. Not always true.
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MCOflyer
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RE: Which Aircraft Is The Most Diffuclt To Land?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 3:23 am

What about the Airbus A320 series a/c. They tend to flaire in at angle slightly higher than the B737.

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legoguy
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RE: Which Aircraft Is The Most Diffuclt To Land?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 3:33 am

Quoting Saab2000 (Reply 13):

Thanks for the reply. I can understand the need to keep track of the aircrafts speed and height whilst landing hence looking at the gauges. Although, is it actually physically possible to see the centre of the runway whilst landing. The height of the aircraft dashboard and the angle the aircraft is landing at seems to 'block' the view. I ask this because landing in MS Flight sim with the cockpit view on in nearly impossible as you cannot see the runway.
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saab2000
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RE: Which Aircraft Is The Most Diffuclt To Land?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 3:57 am

Yes, it is possible in the CRJ to see the runway. The CRJ lands very flat with very little nose up attitude. I understand your question though. I cannot say for larger planes like the MD-11 or 747 or A330, which all land with quite a bit of nose up pitch.
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United787
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RE: Which Aircraft Is The Most Diffuclt To Land?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:05 am

I spoke to an Air Wisconsin CRJ pilot once and he said the CRJ is very tricky to land because the wings are so close to the ground.
 
MCIGuy
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RE: Which Aircraft Is The Most Diffuclt To Land?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:10 am

Viper (F-16), don't know about airliners.  Big grin
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legoguy
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RE: Which Aircraft Is The Most Diffuclt To Land?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:11 am

Quoting Saab2000 (Reply 23):
Yes, it is possible in the CRJ to see the runway. The CRJ lands very flat with very little nose up attitude. I understand your question though. I cannot say for larger planes like the MD-11 or 747 or A330, which all land with quite a bit of nose up pitch.

Again, thanks.

Quoting United787 (Reply 24):
I spoke to an Air Wisconsin CRJ pilot once and he said the CRJ is very tricky to land because the wings are so close to the ground.

I have heard that any commercial aircraft with engines mounted at the back (meaning wings closer to the rear) are hard to land in crosswinds as, as you mention, the wings are closer to the ground due to the upward angle the aircraft approaches.
Can you say 'Beer Can' without sounding like a Jamaican saying 'Bacon'?
 
saab2000
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RE: Which Aircraft Is The Most Diffuclt To Land?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:16 am

I have met several hundred Air Wisconsin pilots.  Big grin
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Happy-flier
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RE: Which Aircraft Is The Most Diffuclt To Land?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:23 am

I don't know this as I've never had the chance to fly in one, but I remember hearing that the Stretch Eight (DC-8) is difficult to land smoothly. Frankly, just by considering the control forces on such a long fuselage, I am not surprised by that comment. Then again, with its large wings and ground effect, and its relatively low degree of nose-up on the flare, it also looks like a jet that can experience a fair amount of floating before the mains touch down.

Any Eight captains out there who could confirm/refute this?
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yellowtail
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RE: Which Aircraft Is The Most Diffuclt To Land?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:26 am

Space Shuttle qualifies as an aircraft.
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legoguy
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RE: Which Aircraft Is The Most Diffuclt To Land?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:28 am

Quoting Yellowtail (Reply 29):
Space Shuttle qualifies as an aircraft.

No, it qualifies as a brick.
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cftoa
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RE: Which Aircraft Is The Most Diffuclt To Land?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:37 am

I always wondered, whether or not its trickier landing an aircraft with a side-stick, instead of a yoke. Is it trickier?
 
BoeingOnFinal
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RE: Which Aircraft Is The Most Diffuclt To Land?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:37 am

I figure that the Antonov 225 isn't very easy to land. Seem like you can't control the pitch when on short final, only control sink rate with the throttle. But that is how many aircrafts land I guess.
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eta unknown
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RE: Which Aircraft Is The Most Diffuclt To Land?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:42 am

I heard the VC10 was very difficult, especially compared to the 707.
 
DashTrash
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RE: Which Aircraft Is The Most Diffuclt To Land?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:46 am

The Dash 8 is awful. I don't know anyone who can make consistantly smooth landings with it. That tall main gear doesn't help, and there isn't much travel in the struts to compress.
 
Lospaziale
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RE: Which Aircraft Is The Most Diffuclt To Land?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:48 am

I've heard that the AWACS airplanes are quite hard to land because of the big radar and its aerodinamical effects, especially with some crosswind...
lo spaziale
 
SimProgrammer
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RE: Which Aircraft Is The Most Diffuclt To Land?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:49 am

Quoting Yellowtail (Reply 29):
Space Shuttle qualifies as an aircraft.

More like a glider.

My vote goes to the DC10
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SlowBus
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RE: Which Aircraft Is The Most Diffuclt To Land?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:50 am

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 19):
and yes, gear extension certainly contributes to a smooth landing

Looks quite obvious, but I`ve read about one guy, who tried a spectacular landing and he really did it - just because he forgot this elementary procedure  Smile
"Fly safely, son! Slow and low"
 
SNfreak
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RE: Which Aircraft Is The Most Diffuclt To Land?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:53 am

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 21):
What about the Airbus A320 series a/c. They tend to flaire in at angle slightly higher than the B737.



Quoting CFTOA (Reply 31):
I always wondered, whether or not its trickier landing an aircraft with a side-stick, instead of a yoke. Is it trickier?

The 320 lands pretty easy in my opinion.
Don't know about the 318/319/321 though.
Most of the time I land the 320 softer than the Archer/Arrow/Seneca planes LOL

I like the joystick.
It's very comfortable to control the plane like this.
I have been flying all my life on the MSFS series and so I got the feeling of flying with a joystick earlier than the yoke.
And now I'm benifitting from that.
 
kaukau
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RE: Which Aircraft Is The Most Diffuclt To Land?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:54 am

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 34):
The Dash 8 is awful. I don't know anyone who can make consistantly smooth landings with it. That tall main gear doesn't help, and there isn't much travel in the struts to compress.

Island Air (WP) pilots drop that Dash-8 down to Kapalua/West Maui JHM in serious 35+mph windage doing a 90+ degree left turn steep dive approach down over the pineapple fields all the time for a living!

[Edited 2006-09-12 21:56:51]

[Edited 2006-09-12 21:59:05]
 
floridaflyboy
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RE: Which Aircraft Is The Most Diffuclt To Land?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:56 am

I've heard from a few pilots that the ATR-72 is tough to land because of its narrow width between the main gear and the length of the wing. They say it is very squirly on the ground.
Good goes around!
 
ZRH
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RE: Which Aircraft Is The Most Diffuclt To Land?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:56 am

Quoting CFTOA (Reply 31):
I always wondered, whether or not its trickier landing an aircraft with a side-stick, instead of a yoke. Is it trickier?

I spoke with some A 330/340 pilots of Swiss which were flying MD 11 before. They all said that it does not matter at all if it is yoke or side-stick. It only depends on training. If it was trickier with a side-stick why would they be used?
 
nkops
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RE: Which Aircraft Is The Most Diffuclt To Land?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:56 am

Quoting Scoliodon (Thread starter):
Which Aircraft Is The Most Diffuclt To Land?

I had a pretty difficult time landing the 737-400 on the aircraft carrier on the FS... but I guess thats not considered normal conditions!!  Big grin
:evil:
 
SP90
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RE: Which Aircraft Is The Most Diffuclt To Land?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:59 am

What about carrier landings? The ship is always turned into the wind for launch and recovery so there won't be much crosswind but I'm sure landing on a rolling and pitching deck presents a whole other set of challenges.  Smile
 
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antoniemey
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RE: Which Aircraft Is The Most Diffuclt To Land?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:03 am

Quoting Legoguy (Reply 30):
Quoting Yellowtail (Reply 29):
Space Shuttle qualifies as an aircraft.

No, it qualifies as a brick.

A Lego brick?  Big grin

Quoting SimProgrammer (Reply 36):
More like a glider.

The only supersonic glider known to man. I imagine it's pretty hard to land, since if you oops, you can't go back around and try again.
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
 
N1120A
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RE: Which Aircraft Is The Most Diffuclt To Land?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:12 am

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 21):
What about the Airbus A320 series a/c. They tend to flaire in at angle slightly higher than the B737.

They also seem to bounce more in the cabin

Quoting Saab2000 (Reply 27):
I have met several hundred Air Wisconsin pilots.

Gee, I wonder why  scratchchin 
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swissy
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RE: Which Aircraft Is The Most Diffuclt To Land?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:19 am

First thanks for all the nice insight you pilots gave to us, always a pleasure hearing what the pros. think....

Spoke to MD11 pilots of LX/MP and they all explained the 11 needs more attention but if done right a breeze to land.....

CRJ are based on what pilots who fly them told me also they are more tricky than other aircrafts.....

727 oh well based on my experience with the good old PA it must be a very difficult ac to land.... do not remember any smooth t/d....  Wink

Cheers,
 
MCOflyer
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RE: Which Aircraft Is The Most Diffuclt To Land?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:21 am

I would think that the MD-11 and the CRJ-100/200 series are hardest. I would think the 700/900 series is easy due to the angle of the rear section of the aft fuselage. What about the E-170/190? I love the soft landings in those? Are those hard to land in?

MCOflyer
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bucky707
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RE: Which Aircraft Is The Most Diffuclt To Land?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:32 am

Quoting Lospaziale (Reply 35):
I've heard that the AWACS airplanes are quite hard to land because of the big radar and its aerodinamical effects, especially with some crosswind...

I flew the AWACS in the Air Force. Very nice landing airplane, even in a crosswind.
 
legoguy
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RE: Which Aircraft Is The Most Diffuclt To Land?

Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:34 am

Quoting Antoniemey (Reply 44):
A Lego brick?

Hahahahaha

YEs I would have to agree the space shuttle would be hard to land but it isn't a commercial aircraft. Not at the moment anyway.
Can you say 'Beer Can' without sounding like a Jamaican saying 'Bacon'?

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