UAEflyer
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Which Is Better New Or Used Biz Jet

Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:46 pm

GoodAfternoon dear airliners.net members,,,

This is my first ever post after i just registerd, for long period i was a frequent visitor to this forum and today i finalized it and joined you guys.

I am working in a huge company (considered one of the biggest 25 in the world) at the last board meeting the top executive asked me to prepare a proposal to buy an aircraft that can fly from DXB to LHR without any stop.
I thought that you guys can help me with this.

Just for your information, at least 18 person will fly this jet (all together).
we would like to know how much it will cost and which is better for the next 20 years, should we buy new or a second hand aircraft

Many thanks

[Edited 2006-11-02 12:57:17]
 
greasespot
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RE: Which Is Better New Or Used Biz Jet

Thu Nov 02, 2006 9:12 pm

Yeah sure...So you come here.....If you are serious about buying a jet you would not come on here....people who are serious know where to find the information.....like oh say aircraft brokers...


I call bullshit on this one
GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
UAEflyer
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RE: Which Is Better New Or Used Biz Jet

Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:41 am

Well my dear "Greasespot" i am not that low to reply you and say such things like you said.

The door is open to others who want to say something useful
 
philb
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RE: Which Is Better New Or Used Biz Jet

Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:53 am

As I've had genuine business enquiries through stranger forums than this I'll go along with the enquiry.

If you want to fly "at least 18 people" in a degree of executive comfort and looking at the range involved, you are looking at an A319 or B737 in business jet format.

These can be bought from the manufacturer, both of whom have offices in the UAE.

Another way is to have the jet purchased for you (new or second hand) by an organisation such as Private Jet of Geneva who will offer a turnkey package freeing you from finding pilots, maintenance, hangarage etc.

The numbers to be flown and the range required dictates that you are going to spend in the millions of dollars over a short period to acquire and run the aircraft - then there are the ongoing operating costs.

Do a search on the Boeing and Airbus commercial sites and look at aircraft brokers as well.
 
UAEflyer
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RE: Which Is Better New Or Used Biz Jet

Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:23 am

Philb
first of all thank you for your reply

secondly i belive that this forum is a method of sharing websites, for sure i contact Airbus regional office here in Dubai i will contact boeing too. I posted this thread here because i would be happy to get more information and what to take into considereation. Dont forget that me nor you who will decide to buy the aircraft.

As for our present time we are dealing with Royal Jet company, which is based here in Abu Dhabi, we always ask for the 737 BBJ, it is nice and very comfort. One of the senior executives suggested to buy and i was told to do the contacts, thats it no more no less.
if you want i will ask the moderator to delet it
 
Poitin
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RE: Which Is Better New Or Used Biz Jet

Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:29 am

Quoting Philb (Reply 3):
As I've had genuine business enquiries through stranger forums than this I'll go along with the enquiry.

Quite right -- you have no idea who is really sitting at the keyboard.  yes 
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
ordpia
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RE: Which Is Better New Or Used Biz Jet

Fri Nov 03, 2006 2:01 am

UAEflyer,
From my experience the ACJ's and BBJ's are the way to go especially on a route like that, a Global express could do the job but from my experience they can get a bit cramped with more than 10 people (cramped in comparison to typical biz jet configurations, still comfortable but it felt like a conference in the sky, thank god it was only a 2 hour hop)

From what i've heard these both run about $30-40 million for the aircraft and the customization can be anywhere from $5 million and up. Getting one of these jets second hand could be very difficult, and in my opinion buying them new is simply the way to go, it is much easier to get it configured to your specifications from the begining, this is based on feedback from my company which has a fleet of Challengers for our use.

Both the ACJ and BBJ are great jets, personally I have used a BBJ more often because they are more readily available for charter when I need it, but from a passenger point of view I can say nothing bad about either of them.

Hope this helps,
ORDPIA
Concorde 146 727 737 73G 742 744 752 753 762 763 772 773 300 319 320 321 343 346 CRJ ERJ ATR ATP CL604 LJ45 LJ60 BD700
 
Devilfish
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RE: Which Is Better New Or Used Biz Jet

Fri Nov 03, 2006 3:17 am

From the Great Circle Mapper, the distance from DXB to LHR is within the Airbus A318 ELITE's range of 4000 NM. The passenger count also falls within the model's specified 14-18 people (Elite or Elite+.) And the accomodation is definitely more spacious than a Global Express or BBD 850 at comparable price.

http://www.airbus.com/en/myairbus/headlinenews/index.jsp

It also has the added advantage of imminent certification for operation into LCY. If the envisioned missions will not require many trips beyond the specified range, then a "green" A318 ELITE at roughly $10M below the ACJ's or BBJ's "green" list price would make a more economical investment for equal comfort levels. Maybe your company could even ask Airbus to fit in additional fuel tanks for a modest range increase.


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[Edited 2006-11-02 19:42:36]
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
UAEflyer
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RE: Which Is Better New Or Used Biz Jet

Fri Nov 03, 2006 5:21 am

Quoting ORDPIA (Reply 6):
Both the ACJ and BBJ are great jets, personally I have used a BBJ more often because they are more readily available for charter when I need it, but from a passenger point of view I can say nothing bad about either of them.

I always like to listen to someone who have experience

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 7):
the distance from DXB to LHR is within the Airbus A318 ELITE's

This is a very nice suggestion

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 7):
It also has the added advantage of imminent certification for operation into LCY

And most of our meetings are in the Canary Warff, which is few steps from LCY
 
AirTranTUS
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RE: Which Is Better New Or Used Biz Jet

Fri Nov 03, 2006 5:47 am

I am not a broker and thus do not know for certain, but if airplanes are anything like cars, you may be able to find a decent and relatively young aircraft for much less than new. With your sepcifications you are definantly looking for a BBJ or ACJ of some sort as others have said. Your company could always make their own from a used 733 and save some  dollarsign   dollarsign  , but the range would be less than a new BBJ. By how much, I don't know; never bought one myself. Big grin
I love ASO!
 
Poitin
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RE: Which Is Better New Or Used Biz Jet

Fri Nov 03, 2006 5:51 am

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 7):
It also has the added advantage of imminent certification for operation into LCY.

UAEFlyer,

I agree that is a strong selling point. With 18 people, you are not going to be happy with something smaller than an A318 or 737, and if you can get into LCY, then you are SO much better off. Trying to get into LHR can be a problem, and if your business is near Canary Wharf, you should insist that the aircraft be LCY ready.

As for buying new or used, you have to answer the question of how fast do you need it. You can probably pick up a used A319 or A318 airliner, send it to the boys in Texas who do the interiors and have it in less than a year. If you buy new, you got to wait in line for the next available slot. That may be several years -- I don't know.

I have been in a couple of the converted airliners that the Silicon Valley moguels have, and I am sure your boss -- whoever he is -- will be very happy with your choice.

If you buy used, get a very reliable broker to help you to choose. There is a lot that you can do wrong in buying an airplane, so get expert advice.
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
cumulus
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RE: Which Is Better New Or Used Biz Jet

Fri Nov 03, 2006 5:57 am

Quoting UAEflyer (Reply 2):
The door is open to others who want to say something useful

That's the way, start arguing with the first post - love it!

Quoting UAEflyer (Reply 8):
Canary Warff

Canary Wharf - Tower Hamlets. If you've been there a few times you should surely know how to spell it.

I with you on this one Greasespot.
What Goes Up Must Come Down, Hopefully In One Piece!
 
UAEflyer
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RE: Which Is Better New Or Used Biz Jet

Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:01 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 10):
As for buying new or used, you have to answer the question of how fast do you need it. You can probably pick up a used A319 or A318 airliner, send it to the boys in Texas who do the interiors and have it in less than a year. If you buy new, you got to wait in line for the next available slot. That may be several years -- I don't know.

It was just an idea and it may be fact, they have just asked for pricing, we will meet next time in London at December and by that time i will finish my research
BTW could a non-elite A318 land in LCY??

Quoting Poitin (Reply 10):
If you buy used, get a very reliable broker to help you to choose. There is a lot that you can do wrong in buying an airplane, so get expert advice

This is a must, and thank you for your advice
 
Poitin
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RE: Which Is Better New Or Used Biz Jet

Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:03 am

Quoting Cumulus (Reply 11):
Quoting UAEflyer (Reply 8):
Canary Warff

Canary Wharf - Tower Hamlets. If you've been there a few times you should surely know how to spell it.

I with you on this one Greasespot.

I'd be careful Cumulus, or you may be freezing in the dark this winter. Remember where your oil and gas come from  Big grin

Not all of us speak English as a first lanuage, and I dare you spell something in Arabic.
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
MEACEDAR
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RE: Which Is Better New Or Used Biz Jet

Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:10 am

The Embraer Lineage 100 also can do DXB-LHR. With this type of interior configuration you can do 18 people easy:

http://www.embraerexecutivejets.com/...ge1000_interior_configurations.asp

This might be cheaper than the Airbus and the Boeing. I am sure you can find one second hand.

There is an sales office in the UAE. This particular aircraft runs about 30-40 million.
 
UAEflyer
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RE: Which Is Better New Or Used Biz Jet

Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:10 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 13):
lanuage

lol we are equal now, check you language!!
 
UAEflyer
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RE: Which Is Better New Or Used Biz Jet

Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:15 am

Quoting MEACEDAR (Reply 14):
The Embraer Lineage 100 also can do DXB-LHR. With this type of interior configuration you can do 18 people easy:

http://www.embraerexecutivejets.com/...s.asp

Really amazing machine, but i have heard that embraer aircrafts maintenance is bit expensive compared to it counterpart
 
MEACEDAR
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RE: Which Is Better New Or Used Biz Jet

Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:19 am

Quoting UAEflyer (Reply 16):
but i have heard that embraer aircrafts maintenance is bit expensive compared to it counterpart

Yea...my cousin just came over a few minutes ago and he saw the thread and he told me the same thing.

Shokran (I am from Lebanon)  Big grin
 
UAEflyer
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RE: Which Is Better New Or Used Biz Jet

Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:23 am

Quoting MEACEDAR (Reply 17):
Shokran (I am from Lebanon)

Afwan i am from UAE  Wink
 
MEACEDAR
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RE: Which Is Better New Or Used Biz Jet

Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:26 am

Aeieh shirkee bidoun tearaat?
 
PPVRA
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RE: Which Is Better New Or Used Biz Jet

Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:44 am

Quoting MEACEDAR (Reply 17):
Quoting UAEflyer (Reply 16):
but i have heard that embraer aircrafts maintenance is bit expensive compared to it counterpart

Yea...my cousin just came over a few minutes ago and he saw the thread and he told me the same thing.

I don't know that much detail about maintenance, so I can't really comment on it, but as the world wide E-Jets fleet grow, its maintenance cost should come down significantly. Also, it weighs much less than the A318 Elite, which should yield considerable fuel savings as well as airport fees based on weight (I don't know if LHR/LCY have these fees).

Cheers  Smile
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Poitin
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RE: Which Is Better New Or Used Biz Jet

Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:30 am

Quoting UAEflyer (Reply 15):
Quoting Poitin (Reply 13):
lanuage

lol we are equal now, check you language!!

Just being a polite Irishman, I am Big grin Also, it proves one should use the spelling checker.
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
Poitin
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RE: Which Is Better New Or Used Biz Jet

Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:32 am

Quoting MEACEDAR (Reply 19):
Aeieh shirkee bidoun tearaat?

isn't Arabic supposed to be squiggly?
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
MEACEDAR
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RE: Which Is Better New Or Used Biz Jet

Fri Nov 03, 2006 8:18 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 22):
isn't Arabic supposed to be squiggly?

Yes it is but, I wrote the words in English with Arabic pronociation.
 
JRadier
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RE: Which Is Better New Or Used Biz Jet

Fri Nov 03, 2006 8:31 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 10):
I agree that is a strong selling point. With 18 people, you are not going to be happy with something smaller than an A318 or 737, and if you can get into LCY, then you are SO much better off. Trying to get into LHR can be a problem, and if your business is near Canary Wharf, you should insist that the aircraft be LCY ready.

Problem might not be getting into LCY, but getting out of LCY with a fuel load for a flight to DXB
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
 
Devilfish
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RE: Which Is Better New Or Used Biz Jet

Fri Nov 03, 2006 8:36 am

Quoting UAEflyer (Reply 12):
BTW could a non-elite A318 land in LCY??

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...07%2c+denies+plans+for+larger.html

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...318+makes+mark+at+London+City.html

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/2006/05/23/206737/Size+sells.html

Quoting UAEflyer (Reply 12):
they have just asked for pricing, we will meet next time in London at December and by that time i will finish my research

From the articles, the Elite averages $45M list.

Quoting Poitin (Reply 10):
you have to answer the question of how fast do you need it. You can probably pick up a used A319 or A318 airliner, send it to the boys in Texas who do the interiors and have it in less than a year.

As the A318 doesn't have much of a backlog, I've read somewhere that it could be delivered "green" within six months, though this is unconfirmed. Again from the articles, interior outfitting for the two standard layouts takes about four months, starting around $5M extra, list.

Here you are for a look at the A318 Elite interiors.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...nsa+Technik+reveal+A318+Elite.html

Quoting JRadier (Reply 24):
but getting out of LCY with a fuel load for a flight to DXB

I believe the load penalty applies to the airliner version. The corporate jet variant should make it okay with only 18 passengers.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
JRadier
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RE: Which Is Better New Or Used Biz Jet

Fri Nov 03, 2006 3:33 pm

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 25):

As the A318 doesn't have much of a backlog

but it shares the same production line with the A319 and A321, wich have pretty big backlogs
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
 
cumulus
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RE: Which Is Better New Or Used Biz Jet

Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:43 pm

Quoting Poitin (Reply 13):
Remember where your oil and gas come from

Russia.
What Goes Up Must Come Down, Hopefully In One Piece!
 
fumanchewd
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RE: Which Is Better New Or Used Biz Jet

Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:19 pm

I have been involved in a few business jet purchases and you have failed to tell us the most important information. How much do they want to spend? Not just to acquire the aircraft but to cover operating costs. Older used aircraft can be ridiculously expensive to operate and should be avoided. New aircraft are more expensive and at times can take a little while to get operating. I would suggest a used aircraft in the range of 2-5 years old.

Most companies do not want to spend the type of money for a BBJ or ACJ. That is usually reserved for charter operators or billionair owners.
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
UAEflyer
Topic Author
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RE: Which Is Better New Or Used Biz Jet

Fri Nov 03, 2006 8:36 pm

DEVILFISH
Thank you, excellent links

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 28):
Most companies do not want to spend the type of money for a BBJ or ACJ. That is usually reserved for charter operators or billionair owners

As stated before it is just a proposal, nothing will go into action at least for 2 to 3 years

Than how much it cost to get B744 super VIP? i saw many of them on airliners.net, waaaw cant imagne how its interior looks like
 
cumulus
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RE: Which Is Better New Or Used Biz Jet

Fri Nov 03, 2006 8:40 pm

Stop mucking about, stick a order in for a A380 with all the kit. Doesn't matter if it doesn't fit into LCY, LHR is just up the road. Alternatively, just land at LCY and by the time it's finished its roll you'll probably be at LHR anyway.

Bar, Jacuzzi, Cinema, Conference Suite, Gym -the whole shooting match.
What Goes Up Must Come Down, Hopefully In One Piece!
 
Devilfish
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RE: Which Is Better New Or Used Biz Jet

Fri Nov 03, 2006 10:42 pm

Quoting UAEflyer (Reply 29):
Thank you, excellent links

You're welcome. But I do wonder about your sudden interest in airliner A318 for LCY.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
UAEflyer
Topic Author
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RE: Which Is Better New Or Used Biz Jet

Sat Nov 04, 2006 1:04 am

Quoting Cumulus (Reply 30):
, stick a order in for a A380 with all the kit

lol i like it

DEVILFISH
You will know in the proper time
 
cumulus
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RE: Which Is Better New Or Used Biz Jet

Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:08 am

Quoting Uaeflyer (Reply 32):
You will know in the proper time

What is that supposed to mean?
What Goes Up Must Come Down, Hopefully In One Piece!
 
Devilfish
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RE: Which Is Better New Or Used Biz Jet

Fri Nov 10, 2006 6:54 am

Quoting UAEflyer (Thread starter):
I am working in a huge company (considered one of the biggest 25 in the world) at the last board meeting the top executive

Would that perchance be Dubai International Capital and the guy SaA? Or DAE?  Smile
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
supa7E7
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RE: Which Is Better New Or Used Biz Jet

Fri Nov 10, 2006 10:05 am

Why not just continue to charter?

A319 and 737 are designed to fly 90 hours per week. If you intend to fly 9 hours per week, that is incredibly low use of resources.

Consider convenience; a charter firm can offer replacement aircraft in case yours breaks. A single owner cannot do that. A charter firm's aircraft are continually cleaned, maintained, staffed and updated. A private owner must spend effort and money to do this.

In the end, charter firms or fractional ownership usually offer a better product for less money for the general user. It pays to own in-house only if you fly daily and posess the ability to manage a flight department well. Otherwise, generally, outsource your flight department and aircraft. JMO.
"Who's to say spaceships aren't fine art?" - Phil Lesh
 
Devilfish
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RE: Which Is Better New Or Used Biz Jet

Fri Nov 10, 2006 1:37 pm

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 28):
That is usually reserved for charter operators or billionair owners.

If my hunch is correct, you wouldn't be too far off.

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 35):
Why not just continue to charter?

That may be rather awkward when you're leasing out the aircraft yourself.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
UAEflyer
Topic Author
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RE: Which Is Better New Or Used Biz Jet

Fri Nov 10, 2006 3:18 pm

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 34):
Would that perchance be Dubai International Capital and the guy SaA? Or DAE?

You are very close, our offices are somehow in the same district

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 35):
Why not just continue to charter?

I think you are right, but we will buy the aircraft and will keep it with Royal Jet Co. in Abu Dhabi they will maintain it and lease it while we dont need it. This will help the company in the mortgage if we bought it
 
Devilfish
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RE: Which Is Better New Or Used Biz Jet

Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:14 pm

Quoting UAEflyer (Reply 37):
You are very close, our offices are somehow in the same district

Drat, missed again.  footinmouth 

Quoting UAEflyer (Reply 37):
but we will buy the aircraft and will keep it with Royal Jet Co. in Abu Dhabi

Tip us off which aircraft you finally buy, and don't forget to post pictures (in & out) when it gets delivered!  bigthumbsup 
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield

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