747400sp
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Is It Me Are Is The 777 The Worlds Safest Airliner

Fri Aug 03, 2007 4:46 am

When I think about the Boeing 777, I notice it been in airliner service for 12 years now and never had a crash. It has rarely had a emergency landing. That is a long time for a jet to not have a major problem, this why I think the 777 is the safest airliner ever built. Do you agree, if not why?
 
WestJetYQQ
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RE: Is It Me Are Is The 777 The Worlds Safest Airl

Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:12 am

The 777 has an ultimately clean record. But I wouldn't put that label on it. I think it's just been by chance that it hasn't had a major accident yet.

 twocents 

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TSS
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RE: Is It Me Are Is The 777 The Worlds Safest Airl

Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:13 am

Perhaps so in several parameters, but consider this: The 777 is designed and for the most part used as a long-haul airliner, which means that the average 777 would have relatively few takeoffs/landings and pressurization cycles per miles flown when compared to typically high-cycle aircraft such as MD-80s (and related variants), 737s, and various RJs. As takeoffs and landings are when most accidents occur, I suggest the 777 simply may not have been subjected to the same number of cycles as shorter-haul aircraft models and therefore may have the appearance of a superior safety record.

I wonder if anyone has ever compiled a list of the average number of accidents per pressurization cycle on individual aircraft models?
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PlymSpotter
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RE: Is It Me Are Is The 777 The Worlds Safest Airl

Fri Aug 03, 2007 6:58 am

As I've said before, there are other airliners which have a similar and unblemished safety record to the 777, notably the Russian Il-96 which is of a similar size. So yes, it is currently one of the worlds safest airlines, but it does not hold the title on its own.


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legoguy
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RE: Is It Me Are Is The 777 The Worlds Safest Airl

Fri Aug 03, 2007 8:15 am

There are quite a few aircraft around without any hull losses, but the 777 is the aircraft with most airframes built. It certainly does look like the 777 is near the top of the safest commercial widebody table, if not already at the top! But perhaps it is hard to be certain until the 777 is close to the end of it's life which will not be for a good while yet thankfully.

The A330 has only had one fatal event that I know of and that was of a test aircraft, thus leaving no fatal events in commercial use. Also the Boeing 717 does not have any hull losses however it is virtually a DC-9 / MD 80 which has had quite a few fatal events. I do not believe the MD90 has any fatal events.

Other aircraft without fatal events that are worth a mention are the A318, A319, A321, 737-600, 737-700 and the 737-900
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A340313X
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RE: Is It Me Are Is The 777 The Worlds Safest Airl

Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:11 am

The A340 has a couple of crashes but no fatalities to it's name. I'd guess ( i hope not, but) there will be some T7 incident at some point, let's just hope if it happens no-one is hurt.
 
N231YE
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RE: Is It Me Are Is The 777 The Worlds Safest Airl

Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:28 am

Yes and no.

The 777 was at the time of its debut, the world's most tested airliner. I believe only the A380 has surpassed it. However, nearly 12 years later, the 777 is lucky enough that it hasn't suffered an incident...and as mentioned above, there are other things to consider when factoring the title as the world's most safest airliner.
 
trent1000
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RE: Is It Me Are Is The 777 The Worlds Safest Airl

Fri Aug 03, 2007 1:02 pm

It also depends on what engine type you put on an airframe. You could build the safest fuselage, but engine trouble for any reason can lead to disaster - and neither Boeing nor Airbus make the engines commonly used on 777s or their other aircraft.
 
TrijetsRMissed
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RE: Is It Me Are Is The 777 The Worlds Safest Airl

Fri Aug 03, 2007 1:18 pm

A dozen years of service, several hundred off the production line, not one fatal accident. I'd consider it the safest airliner as well. Have other aircraft such as the 717, MD90, A319, and A340 have similar flawless safety records? Yes, but they haven't been in service as long and/or have far less airframes built.

Quoting TSS (Reply 2):
As takeoffs and landings are when most accidents occur, I suggest the 777 simply may not have been subjected to the same number of cycles as shorter-haul aircraft models and therefore may have the appearance of a superior safety record.

Think of all the accidents that plagued the DC-10 and classic 747's in their first dozen years of service. While true to an extent, I'd take that theory with a grain of salt.

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 3):
As I've said before, there are other airliners which have a similar and unblemished safety record to the 777, notably the Russian Il-96 which is of a similar size

Yes, but how many more 777's are flying verses Il-96's? It's not even close, therefore the 777 gets the nod.
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Acey
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RE: Is It Me Are Is The 777 The Worlds Safest Airl

Fri Aug 03, 2007 1:37 pm

Let's not jinx it.  Smile I had someone ask me the other day why every crash seems to be a Boeing 737, but one must remember over 5,000 have built and some operate on really short sectors.

Quoting Legoguy (Reply 4):
737-600, 737-700 and the 737-900

Well, let's see. The -700 is in fact clean with the exception of WN sliding off the runway and running over a child at MDW, but I suppose that doesn't really count. The -600 and -900 have only 66 and 52 models in service respectively, so it would certainly be a bad omen for those programs if there had been an accident.
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LAXspotter
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RE: Is It Me Are Is The 777 The Worlds Safest Airl

Fri Aug 03, 2007 2:12 pm

Quoting N231YE (Reply 6):
as mentioned above, there are other things to consider when factoring the title as the world's most safest airliner.

One of them is, how many aircraft have been built. I dont know how much the T7 production numbers are, but that is one decisive factor to look at.
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Acey
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RE: Is It Me Are Is The 777 The Worlds Safest Airl

Fri Aug 03, 2007 2:27 pm

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 10):
I dont know how much the T7 production numbers are, but that is one decisive factor to look at.

I believe about 660 have been built.
If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
LAXspotter
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RE: Is It Me Are Is The 777 The Worlds Safest Airl

Fri Aug 03, 2007 2:52 pm

Quoting Acey (Reply 11):
I believe about 660 have been built.

and the 737 has over 5000 in use correct? I think there should be some sort of rate to determine what is the safest airliner.
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AirTranTUS
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RE: Is It Me Are Is The 777 The Worlds Safest Airl

Fri Aug 03, 2007 3:03 pm

I would expect the 777 to be safe, seeing as it is the newest all-new type (Boeing & Airbus) in operation.
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Mir
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RE: Is It Me Are Is The 777 The Worlds Safest Airl

Fri Aug 03, 2007 3:14 pm

Quoting Acey (Reply 9):
Well, let's see. The -700 is in fact clean with the exception of WN sliding off the runway and running over a child at MDW, but I suppose that doesn't really count.

How does that not count? It's a fatal accident.

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RE: Is It Me Are Is The 777 The Worlds Safest Airl

Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:57 pm

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 8):
Yes, but how many more 777's are flying verses Il-96's? It's not even close, therefore the 777 gets the nod.

Not exactly, if you're comparing the safety of two aircraft designs then they are perfectly equal, both having zero crashes to their name. Long may this continue as well for both aircraft!


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Acey
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RE: Is It Me Are Is The 777 The Worlds Safest Airl

Sat Aug 04, 2007 4:36 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 14):
How does that not count? It's a fatal accident.

It wasn't a hull loss, nor did anyone die on the aircraft.
If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
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Braybuddy
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RE: Is It Me Are Is The 777 The Worlds Safest Airl

Sat Aug 04, 2007 4:56 am

What has to be taken into account when claiming an aircraft is safe or unsafe is whether an accident is the fault of the aircraft. For example, Aircraft A may have a completely clean record, whereas Aircraft B may have had several "accidents" through no fault of its own, ie: a terrorist attack, windshear or pilot error. Aircraft B may have had been involved in the deaths of several hundred people, but it is as equally safe as Aircraft A.
 
TrijetsRMissed
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RE: Is It Me Are Is The 777 The Worlds Safest Airl

Sat Aug 04, 2007 6:12 am

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 15):
Not exactly, if you're comparing the safety of two aircraft designs then they are perfectly equal, both having zero crashes to their name. Long may this continue as well for both aircraft!

I disagree, the number of aircraft in service is completely relevant when comparing flawless safety records of different designs.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 10):
One of them is, how many aircraft have been built. I dont know how much the T7 production numbers are, but that is one decisive factor to look at.

 checkmark 

Quoting Acey (Reply 11):
I believe about 660 have been built.

 checkmark 
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Arsenal@LHR
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RE: Is It Me Are Is The 777 The Worlds Safest Airl

Sat Aug 04, 2007 6:24 am

The fact that the 777 has not had a hull loss or a passenger killed in commercial use is a testament to how great this airliner is. This plane has redundancy and back-up safety systems that aircraft from previous generations could only dream of. Credit must go to Boeing, the development, research and certification testing for the T7 was the most intense in the history of aviation, Boeing certainly did their homework well. Considering the fact that the 777 is flown by airlines from every corner of the globe in nearly every weather condition, it reminds you how durable and reliable this plane is. Touch wood this impeccable record is kept, but it takes one pilot error, one screw-up by a mechanic, or a fanatical terrorist to shatter this record.
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EWRCabincrew
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RE: Is It Me Are Is The 777 The Worlds Safest Airl

Sat Aug 04, 2007 6:43 am

The 767-400 has a no accidents either.
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scrubbsywg
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RE: Is It Me Are Is The 777 The Worlds Safest Airl

Sat Aug 04, 2007 9:00 am

isn't difficult to call a certain model the 'safest'? Is it not true that many aircraft accidents and incidents are related to the pilot's decision? I believe a pilot can make a mistake on ANY plane, no matter the three digits thats on the side, and maybe that is a testament to training companies have undertaken, or maybe because of the system's of the 777, or maybe its time just hasn't come up. Most other major airplane models have been around somewhat longer than the 777.
 
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RE: Is It Me Are Is The 777 The Worlds Safest Airl

Sat Aug 04, 2007 9:15 am

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 18):
I disagree, the number of aircraft in service is completely relevant when comparing flawless safety records of different designs.

Agree to disagree then. Both are certainly beautiful aircraft!

Other aircraft I can think of which have yet to encounter any significant accidents/incidents/loss of life etc... are;

A318
A319
A321
B717
B777
D328
EMB135
EMB140
EMB170
EMB190
F70
Il-96
Tu204


Dan Smile
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ZBBYLW
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RE: Is It Me Are Is The 777 The Worlds Safest Airl

Sun Aug 05, 2007 7:56 am

No some would argue the A340 is safer then the 777. Having had Major Accidents and yet everyone was able to get out of the aircraft safely (thinking AF in YYZ specifically) should mean alot to. Its like saying a Specific car is not as safe as another because of # of accidents, rather then how many people that second car has saved due to safety features that if where installed in car A could have saved lives, its all relative.
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OB1504
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RE: Is It Me Are Is The 777 The Worlds Safest Airl

Sun Aug 05, 2007 9:12 am

For the record, the Boeing 757 also went 12 years before its first hull loss (AA965), and they've made more than 1,000 of them.
 
EWRCabincrew
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RE: Is It Me Are Is The 777 The Worlds Safest Airl

Sun Aug 05, 2007 9:57 am

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 24):
For the record, the Boeing 757 also went 12 years before its first hull loss (AA965), and they've made more than 1,000 of them.

The first hull loss for the 757 was a 757-21B (reg B-2812) from China Southwest Airlines on 02OCT90. It was struck by a hijacked Xiamen Airlines 737 in Guangzhou.

http://www.airdisaster.com/cgi-bin/v...2&airline=China+Southwest+Airlines

http://www.airdisaster.com/photos/canton/photo.shtml

[Edited 2007-08-05 02:58:14]

[Edited 2007-08-05 02:58:44]
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747400sp
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RE: Is It Me Are Is The 777 The Worlds Safest Airl

Sun Aug 05, 2007 11:47 pm

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 20):
The 767-400 has a no accidents either.

But the 767 family has had some crashes.
 
Acey
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RE: Is It Me Are Is The 777 The Worlds Safest Airl

Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:34 am

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 26):
But the 767 family has had some crashes.

 checkmark  This is entirely a dumb thread...Legoguy was picking out variants of the 737 that haven't had a hull loss yet...the entire 737 program has had some problems since its conception; the first to come to mind is rudder reversal. To say the -700 or -900 are fail safe is simply inaccurate.

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 20):
The 767-400 has a no accidents either.

Only you and DL fly them, and less than 50 are in service. Again, it only makes sense that one hasn't been lost yet. It doesn't really mean it's safer than the other variants, or any other aircraft for that matter.
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PC12Fan
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RE: Is It Me Are Is The 777 The Worlds Safest Airl

Tue Aug 07, 2007 6:15 am

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 25):
The first hull loss for the 757 was a 757-21B (reg B-2812) from China Southwest Airlines on 02OCT90. It was struck by a hijacked Xiamen Airlines 737 in Guangzhou.

I don't think there have been any hull losses of a 757 that have not been human error or human demise. (9/11)
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Viscount724
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RE: Is It Me Are Is The 777 The Worlds Safest Airl

Tue Aug 07, 2007 4:51 pm

Quoting Acey (Reply 16):
Quoting Mir (Reply 14):
How does that not count? It's a fatal accident.

It wasn't a hull loss, nor did anyone die on the aircraft.

But it still counts as a fatal accident. And what difference does it make whether the person killed was on the aircraft or in a car hit by the aircraft?

As someone else mentioned, it's not very productive to talk about certain aircraft types as being safer than others based only on the fact that some have not been involved in accidents. You have to look at the operating environment and the fact that most accidents result from pilot error and human factors. Many would have happened regardless of aircraft type. It's just a matter of luck that certain aircraft types may not have been involved in accidents.

And you have to look at the circumstances of the accidents. You can hardly blame the aircraft type if someone plants a bomb on it and it blows up and kills a few hundred passengers. And do you consider the B747 any less safe because of the Pan Am and KLM collision at Tenerife in 1977 that killed 583 because the KLM captain took off without takeoff clearance? Or what about the Comair CRJ that took off on the wrong runway at LEX a few months ago?

I would personally consider an aircraft like the Dash 8 or CRJ to be just as safe as something like the 777 even though they have been involved in a (very) few fatal accidents, in fact only 2 for each type involving passenger fatalities, and a couple of crew-only incidents involving CRJs. Consider the conditions those aircraft operate in every day all over the world with as many as 10 takeoffs/landings, often at airports with poor facilities and short runways. The fact that only 2 of the 800 or so Dash 8s built over the past 25 years, and only 2 of almost 1500 CRJs built in the past 15 years have been involved in fatal accidents is a more impressive record to me than a fatality-free widebody that rarely makes more than 2 flights (or less) every 24 hours and always to/from airports with the best of facilities and flown by very experienced pilots.
 
Acey
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RE: Is It Me Are Is The 777 The Worlds Safest Airl

Wed Aug 08, 2007 1:36 am

And also the fact that most accidents occur in the takeoff and landing phases of flight...long haul jets like the 777 have longer flight times and are thus less prone to accidents.
If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
teva
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RE: Is It Me Are Is The 777 The Worlds Safest Airl

Wed Aug 08, 2007 1:59 am

There is one aircraft that will keep clean record for ever: the Dassault Mercure.
Never had an accident during its years with Air Inter.
And it is now no more in use (unfortunately)
We will be able to compare the day all the great planes mentioned above will be in museum and no more flying.

teva
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HAWK21M
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RE: Is It Me Are Is The 777 The Worlds Safest Airl

Wed Aug 08, 2007 3:09 am

True.
As on date no Write offs for the B777s.
regds
MEL
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Superfly
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RE: Is It Me Are Is The 777 The Worlds Safest Airl

Wed Aug 08, 2007 5:31 am

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 8):
Quoting TSS (Reply 2):
As takeoffs and landings are when most accidents occur, I suggest the 777 simply may not have been subjected to the same number of cycles as shorter-haul aircraft models and therefore may have the appearance of a superior safety record.

Think of all the accidents that plagued the DC-10 and classic 747's in their first dozen years of service. While true to an extent, I'd take that theory with a grain of salt.

Keep in mind the DC-10 and 747 were also used on short and medium range flights back in the 1970s. Yes they were designed as long-haul jets but served on short hops too.


Is it fair to include the series of an aircraft variant against another type? The A319 is just a shorter A320 which has had several crashes. The 767-400 is a stretched 767-300 which has had several crashes. The 777 family is not a variation of another line of aircraft in the Boeing family.

It's also in poor taste to boast about the 777 not having a fatal accident while the plane is in service and in production. None of us knows what may happen tomorrow, next week, next year, etc.
Bring back the Concorde
 
TrijetsRMissed
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RE: Is It Me Are Is The 777 The Worlds Safest Airl

Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:51 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 33):
Keep in mind the DC-10 and 747 were also used on short and medium range flights back in the 1970s. Yes they were designed as long-haul jets but served on short hops too.

Yes, but 777 flies some fairly short routes within the US for both UA and AA, the largest operators. ORD-DEN, ORD-DFW, etc.. Also, the 747's accidents in the early days were by in large on long distance routes. Kind of cancels each other out.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 33):
It's also in poor taste to boast about the 777 not having a fatal accident while the plane is in service and in production. None of us knows what may happen tomorrow, next week, next year, etc.

No it's not, pessimistic implications of future accidents for an aircraft with an impeccable safety record is in poor taste, IMO. The flawless safety record of this aircraft should be admired and given credit for.
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khelmDTW
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RE: Is It Me Are Is The 777 The Worlds Safest Airl

Wed Aug 08, 2007 1:31 pm

Not one incident? Ask the engineer killed in 2001 when the 777 sprung a leak, and he was killed in a fire ball.

http://www.natasafety1st.org/f_mishaps.htm
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PC12Fan
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RE: Is It Me Are Is The 777 The Worlds Safest Airl

Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:28 pm

Quoting KhelmDTW (Reply 35):

True, but that had absolutely nothing to do with the aircrafts performance. It was stationary on the ground at the gate.
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
TrijetsRMissed
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RE: Is It Me Are Is The 777 The Worlds Safest Airl

Thu Aug 09, 2007 12:41 pm

Quoting KhelmDTW (Reply 35):
Not one incident? Ask the engineer killed in 2001 when the 777 sprung a leak, and he was killed in a fire ball

That's like blaming the DC-10 for TZ's mishap with the ground fire at ORD in '86.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19860810-0
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747400sp
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RE: Is It Me Are Is The 777 The Worlds Safest Airl

Thu Aug 09, 2007 1:57 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 33):
Keep in mind the DC-10 and 747 were also used on short and medium range flights back in the 1970s. Yes they were designed as long-haul jets but served on short hops too.

DC10 was originally a medium range airliners. They was design to fly LAX-ORD or JFK-ORD, but MD saw a market for a long range airliner to fit between the 747 and 707 hints the DC 10 30 and 40.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 33):
DC-10 and 747

Not to bust your chops, but as a 747 fan I had to say this. Please never write any plane before the mighty Boeing 747, except the Concorde?
 
burnsie28
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RE: Is It Me Are Is The 777 The Worlds Safest Airl

Thu Aug 09, 2007 10:00 pm

I feel safest in a DC-9, that thing is a tank.
 
Superfly
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RE: Is It Me Are Is The 777 The Worlds Safest Airl

Thu Aug 09, 2007 10:56 pm

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 38):
Please never write any plane before the mighty Boeing 747, except the Concorde?

Point taken and happy birthday.  wave 
Bring back the Concorde
 
747400sp
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RE: Is It Me Are Is The 777 The Worlds Safest Airl

Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:42 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 40):
Point taken and happy birthday.

OH! Thank You. Big grin
 
mdodd
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RE: Is It Me Are Is The 777 The Worlds Safest Airl

Fri Aug 10, 2007 4:56 am

Quoting WestJetYQQ (Reply 1):
I think it's just been by chance that it hasn't had a major accident yet.

True...for the best results:

"Only time will tell..."
 
legoguy
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RE: Is It Me Are Is The 777 The Worlds Safest Airl

Fri Aug 10, 2007 7:17 pm

Quoting Acey (Reply 27):
Legoguy was picking out variants of the 737 that haven't had a hull loss yet...the entire 737 program has had some problems since its conception; the first to come to mind is rudder reversal. To say the -700 or -900 are fail safe is simply inaccurate.

Just to clear that up... I thought it would be interesting to know which aircraft model's have not had a fatal crash. I was not trying to apply that these aircraft in particular were safe in any way.
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KPDX
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RE: Is It Me Are Is The 777 The Worlds Safest Airl

Sat Aug 11, 2007 3:25 am

The 757-300 has never had an accident either...has it? Im flying in one in about 2 weeks, CO PDX-IAH.

KPDX  Smile
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MEA-707
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RE: Is It Me Are Is The 777 The Worlds Safest Airl

Mon Aug 13, 2007 9:02 pm

We will never agree. The 777 has an impressive record. I think the A-330/340 family comes VERY close with no passenger fatalities and overall more daily cyles. But honorable mention should be made for the Embraer Jets, the 1250 of which also make like 8 times as many cycles every day as the 650 Boeing 777s flying around. There have been three non fatal write offs, but noone ever died on any of the 1250 jets Embraer built (135, 140, 145, 170, 190 etc). Ironically though, one has chopped off the wing of a 737NG (GOL) and ruined the Boeings perfect safety record until then.
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Viscount724
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RE: Is It Me Are Is The 777 The Worlds Safest Airl

Tue Aug 14, 2007 8:31 am

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 45):
Ironically though, one has chopped off the wing of a 737NG (GOL) and ruined the Boeings perfect safety record until then.

That was the 2nd 737NG fatal accident/writeoff. You are overlooking this one:
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20070505-0

There was one earlier 737NG accident involving a fatality on the ground, which still counts as a fatal accident. The aircraft was repaired and returned to service however.
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20051208-0

[Edited 2007-08-14 01:33:20]
 
TrijetsRMissed
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RE: Is It Me Are Is The 777 The Worlds Safest Airl

Tue Aug 14, 2007 10:55 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 46):
That was the 2nd 737NG fatal accident/writeoff. You are overlooking this one:
http://aviation-safety.net/database/...505-0

The GOL accident happened last September, therefore it was the first 737NG fatal accident involving a hull loss.
There's nothing quite like a trijet.
 
PGNCS
Posts: 2249
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:07 am

RE: Is It Me Are Is The 777 The Worlds Safest Airl

Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:02 am

Quoting Arsenal@LHR (Reply 19):
This plane has redundancy and back-up safety systems that aircraft from previous generations could only dream of.

Explain this, please.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19065
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Is It Me Are Is The 777 The Worlds Safest Airl

Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:15 am

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 47):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 46):
That was the 2nd 737NG fatal accident/writeoff. You are overlooking this one:
http://aviation-safety.net/database/...505-0

The GOL accident happened last September, therefore it was the first 737NG fatal accident involving a hull loss.

Thanks. You're correct. I must have transposed the dates of the two accidents.

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