P3Orion
Topic Author
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How Would You Improve The U.S ATC System?

Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:49 am

The question is self explanatory. I read a lot of opinions on how antiquated ATC is in the United States but no-one offers real solutions. I only hear generic, off the cuff remarks such as "privitization" or a "satellite based system." So please be specific. Explain your reasonings. Also, if you dare to compare the FAA with NavCanada, NATS or Eurocontrol all I ask is that you take into account that they do not work the volume or complexity we do.
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akizidy214
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RE: How Would You Improve The U.S ATC System?

Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:04 am

Thank you for this opportunity to finish where I left off

The ATC system is ancient, out of date etc.....whatever you want to call it. And just because a location got a touch display screens last week doesn't fix the problem. These things have been out for 20 years now and they just happened to be recently updated....That further proves that the ATC system is out of date.

First step would be to take a step back a admit to the problems and start from there.

[Edited 2007-10-29 20:07:56]
DCA
 
PPVRA
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RE: How Would You Improve The U.S ATC System?

Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:05 am

Quoting P3Orion (Thread starter):
Also, if you dare to compare the FAA with NavCanada, NATS or Eurocontrol all I ask is that you take into account that they do not work the volume or complexity we do.

But do you really handle all that traffic? I mean, if you are starting this thread, it tells me something isn't right to begin with. And I think the problem is the handling.

Anyways, I have a question that may sound indirect:

Do airport fees/slots/costs vary during peak times and less busy times or are they flat all day long? I am particularly interested in airports like ATL, EWR, ORD, LAX, LGA, etc.

[Edited 2007-10-29 20:07:17]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: How Would You Improve The U.S ATC System?

Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:09 am

Actually modernize it....

Outside of that.... Spend some money on new/existing airports. If unable to build new, then modernize older facilities for larger aircraft then....From the other thread....

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 72):
If people want to really cut flights at congested airports rather than lay new runways, the solution is rather simple. Blanket coverage of seat averages between types of airports. In other words, some simple language:

For all flights into and out of commercial service airports that are operating at 80% or greater than their peak operational capacity, the following minimum seat requirements apply during the peak time:

1. For all flights to Non-primary commerical service airports: 50 seats
2. For all flights to Primary Small Hub Airports: 70 seats
3. For all flights to Primary Medium Hub Airports: 100 seats
4. For all flights to Primary Large Hub Airports: 160 seats
5. For all flights operated by a uniform capacity carrier (single aircraft fleet): 80 seats
6. No more than one flight may be scheduled per carrier, or carrier group (including regional and code-share partners) to any point in a single peak hour.

This applies a minimum seat capacity to flights that applies to all carriers equally and is not arbitrary. Peak pricing schemes are a joke and any FAA mandated schedule reduction is short lived.


The definition of airports is already a matter of public law:

http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraff...ssenger_allcargo_stats/categories/

[Edited 2007-10-29 20:14:43]
 
P3Orion
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RE: How Would You Improve The U.S ATC System?

Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:12 am

Quoting Akizidy214 (Reply 1):
The ATC system is ancient, out of date etc

What do you find "ancient" about it?

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 2):
Do airport rates/slots/costs vary during peak times and less busy times or are they flat all day long? I am particularly interested in airports like ATL, EWR, ORD, LAX, LGA, etc.

If you are talking about landing fees, I don't know. That is an airport management question, sorry.
I will have a Manhattan.
 
PPVRA
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RE: How Would You Improve The U.S ATC System?

Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:15 am

Quoting P3Orion (Reply 4):

If you are talking about landing fees, I don't know. That is an airport management question, sorry.

Yes, landing fees.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
akizidy214
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RE: How Would You Improve The U.S ATC System?

Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:35 am

Quoting P3Orion (Reply 4):
What do you find "ancient" about it?

It is the same basic system that we have had around for years.... While some upgrades have been made they have not kept up with the booming aviation industry and there is no excuse for that.

[Edited 2007-10-29 20:37:59]
DCA
 
P3Orion
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RE: How Would You Improve The U.S ATC System?

Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:42 am

Quoting Akizidy214 (Reply 6):
It is the same basic system that we have had around for years

What do you want the system to do/handle? My friend at ZDC can't force Delta to fly through a level 2 cell.
I will have a Manhattan.
 
akizidy214
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RE: How Would You Improve The U.S ATC System?

Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:46 am

Quoting P3Orion (Reply 7):
What do you want the system to do/handle? My friend at ZDC can't force Delta to fly through a level 2 cell.

Weather is not the issue here....... my friend.
DCA
 
SPREE34
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RE: How Would You Improve The U.S ATC System?

Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:50 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 2):
Do airport fees/slots/costs vary during peak times and less busy times or are they flat all day long? I am particularly interested in airports like ATL, EWR, ORD, LAX, LGA, etc.

That is a function of the airport operators. They should introduce peak time pricing to encourage the carriers to smooth out there banks. Market forces would solve some of the overcrowding.

Quoting Akizidy214 (Reply 1):
The ATC system is ancient, out of date etc..

Along with P3, I'd like to know what you find ancient. Give me some specifics.

It's been under continuous rebuild for several years. In the future it will still have to be added to, rebuilt, replaced, whatever, a bit at a time. You can't flip a switch overnight and have a %100 new system on the next day.

GPS is a nice add, and should have at least an INS/IRS backup. PCDL should never have been de-funded. 8.33khz spacing! Europe did this 10 years ago, we should now. RNP is spreading. RVSM was sweet. Too bad no matching funds were made available to pour concrete.

Like I said, give some specifics.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
P3Orion
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RE: How Would You Improve The U.S ATC System?

Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:51 am

Quoting Akizidy214 (Reply 8):
Weather is not the issue here....... my friend.

Then be specific. New RADAR displays, more controllers...what? This is what I am talking about. Everyone likes to take pot shots but has no specific ideas; just broad generalities and assumptions.
I will have a Manhattan.
 
akizidy214
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RE: How Would You Improve The U.S ATC System?

Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:17 am

Quoting P3Orion (Reply 10):
Then be specific. New RADAR displays, more controllers...what? This is what I am talking about. Everyone likes to take pot shots but has no specific ideas; just broad generalities and assumption

Productivity of ATC employees.....Increase it. Im not talking about longer work hours. Finding ways to improve basic work out put during a shift.

More help from the Govt to find more qualified employees. Better schooling....more trade schools for HS graduates..financial aid etc. With this you get more employees to cover areas where man power is an issue.

Improve traffic flow programs in the congested NE United States.

A computer system that is current and up to date all over the board. Radar, Displays......The US should have the most up to date system in the world.

Airlines can't fly DC10's on routes like DFW-ELP anymore.....Times change systems need to updated to the latest and greatest.

Some type of improvement between general aviation and civil aviation. General aviation is growing at a ridiculous rate why major airlines are covering there cost.

Better communication between local ATC's and nation ATC's. If this means more national ATC centers then so be it.

Im no genius but I know things have to change for airlines and the travel industry to succeed
DCA
 
tdscanuck
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RE: How Would You Improve The U.S ATC System?

Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:36 am

Quoting P3Orion (Thread starter):
no-one offers real solutions

1) Congestion pricing for landing slots. ATC and airport capacity cannot be expanded overnight, airlines have proven they will not schedule to actual airport capacity, therefore congestion pricing is the only free-market way to get the delays under control in the short term. If you have a problem with congestion pricing, slot restriction achieves the same thing, although less efficiently.

2) Begin major infrastructure projects at all the major airports, primarily centered around more runways and improved ILS to allow improved spacing on all runways that don't already have it.

3) Develop RNP approaches for all runways in the US and get the carriers with RNP-capable aircraft to start using them.

4) Convert to a satellite-based ATC with centrally managed arrival scheduling.

There are reasons why I think this is what you should do, and why that's the right order, but I want to keep this short to get started.

Tom.
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: How Would You Improve The U.S ATC System?

Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:49 am

Quoting P3Orion (Reply 4):
What do you find "ancient" about it?

Many systems in the US are 70's era computers. Often parts are hard to come by because they are no longer manufactured... whilst there has been some investment in recent times, it is generally accepted that the US system is quite dated compared to many other countries. Whilst Australia and New Zealand don't have the same population density etc as the US, between them they cover a larger area than the US and have much more modern systems with the likes of FANS fully integrated and a lot more point-point traffic because the system can handle it.
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flyingclrs727
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RE: How Would You Improve The U.S ATC System?

Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:40 am

Privatize the ATC system.
 
Mir
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RE: How Would You Improve The U.S ATC System?

Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:42 am

1) Get RNP procedures in place ASAP, and start using them to open up more flight paths in and out of airports (applies to SIDs, STARs, and IAPs). This would really help in the NYC area, where departure paths are limited by the limited number of navaids and the close proximity of three very busy airports to one another.

2) In order to accomplish #1, tell the NIMBYs where to stick it and design the airspace to be as efficient as possible.

3) Charge higher fees for airlines that can't use the RNP procedures at primary Class B airports.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 3):
For all flights into and out of commercial service airports that are operating at 80% or greater than their peak operational capacity, the following minimum seat requirements apply during the peak time:

1. For all flights to Non-primary commerical service airports: 50 seats
2. For all flights to Primary Small Hub Airports: 70 seats
3. For all flights to Primary Medium Hub Airports: 100 seats
4. For all flights to Primary Large Hub Airports: 160 seats
5. For all flights operated by a uniform capacity carrier (single aircraft fleet): 80 seats
6. No more than one flight may be scheduled per carrier, or carrier group (including regional and code-share partners) to any point in a single peak hour.

I think #4 should be 130 seats, so that it would include the 737 and A320 families for carriers like B6, F9, AS, NK, but otherwise it sounds good.

Quoting FlyingClrs727 (Reply 14):
Privatize the ATC system.

As the OP said, explain your reasoning.

-Mir
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SPREE34
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RE: How Would You Improve The U.S ATC System?

Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:01 pm

Quoting Akizidy214 (Reply 6):
It is the same basic system that we have had around for years..

So are the aircraft. Still using wings and a weight producing stabilizer system. What do you think should be done about this?

Quoting Akizidy214 (Reply 8):
Weather is not the issue here....... my friend.

#2 cause of delays. It's germane to the thread.

Quoting Akizidy214 (Reply 11):
Finding ways to improve basic work out put during a shift.

Sounds like a "Bean Counter" statement. The "Out put" is Safety. We don't produce Widgets or some other device that pops off an assembly line. When the traffic is there you work it. When it's not, you are like a Fireman waiting for a fire.
How would you improve the basic work out put of a fire station?

Quoting Akizidy214 (Reply 11):
More help from the Govt to find more qualified employees. Better schooling....more trade schools for HS graduates..financial aid etc. With this you get more employees to cover areas where man power is an issue.

Sounds like more government hand outs to me. The FAA already backed the CTI program, then didn't hire the graduates coming out.
You want more man power in certain areas? Offer pay commensurate with the responsibility of the position in that local market.

Quoting Akizidy214 (Reply 11):
Improve traffic flow programs in the congested NE United States.

Already being done.

Quoting Akizidy214 (Reply 11):
A computer system that is current and up to date all over the board. Radar, Displays......The US should have the most up to date system in the world.

Ever hear of ASR-11? STARS? ACD?

Quoting Akizidy214 (Reply 11):
Airlines can't fly DC10's on routes like DFW-ELP anymore.....Times change systems need to updated to the latest and greatest.

Airlines probably never should have flown DC-10s between DFW and ELP. But hey, when they did (pre-dereg) there were a regulated industry that could waste money left and right, then, with government help, gouge it out of the passenger.

Quoting Akizidy214 (Reply 11):
Better communication between local ATC's and nation ATC's. If this means more national ATC centers then so be it.

What are you talking about? Be specific please.

Quoting Akizidy214 (Reply 11):
Im no genius but I know things have to change for airlines and the travel industry to succeed

And that change has to be the ATC system? It's the root cause of their woes?

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 12):
Tom.

Nice. A thinking man offering solutions. How'd you get in here?

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 13):
and a lot more point-point traffic because the system can handle it.

Point to point? How are you defining point. Point as in a NAV fix, or point as in a destination?

Quoting FlyingClrs727 (Reply 14):
Privatize the ATC system.

We privatized Flight Service. It's been an over budget, under performing nightmare. ATC doesn't belong there. Safety of flight has to be a higher priority than the stock price. In a private corporation, by law, stock value has to be maximized. Fiduciary responsibility would trump safety. It's a business thing. ATC is a service thing.

Fire the present leadership and hire competent leadership to fix the present issues.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: How Would You Improve The U.S ATC System?

Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:25 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 15):
Get RNP procedures in place ASAP, and start using them to open up more flight paths in and out of airports (applies to SIDs, STARs, and IAPs)

I will agree that a performance based NAS would open up more routes but all the RNP procedures in the worlds won't do much until a few things are addressed. Separation standards for RNP procedures should be based upon the containment required, Flight Standards dictates what separation ATC has to use so they have to buy into the concept first, then the operators must be certified for IAP's of which there are maybe 3 airlines that have RNP certification for IAP's.....heck some do not even have RNAV approach ops specs.

Quoting Akizidy214 (Reply 11):
Productivity of ATC employees.....Increase it. I'm not talking about longer work hours. Finding ways to improve basic work out put during a shift.

Please give some examples of how you get more productivity at a facility where during an 8 hr shift the employee is on the position for 5+30 or more with breaks and a 30 minute break for meal?

Quoting Akizidy214 (Reply 11):
Better communication between local ATC's and nation ATC's. If this means more national ATC centers then so be

You really don't want more centers......20 is plenty! Better communication between local and national, would you be more specific as I am not quite sure what your point is?

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 12):
Develop RNP approaches for all runways in the US and get the carriers with RNP-capable aircraft to start using them.

At airports which have traffic and parallel runways the .65 don't allow for independent RNP ops so change the book.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: How Would You Improve The U.S ATC System?

Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:36 pm

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 16):
In a private corporation, by law, stock value has to be maximized. Fiduciary responsibility would trump safety.

If that's the case, then shouldn't all airlines be run by the government? Obviously, safety is pretty important for airlines too, yet they are public companies.

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 16):
Fire the present leadership and hire competent leadership to fix the present issues.

But as long as its run by the government, you'll never get the competent leadership you seek. There's no strong incentive to be competent when you work for the government. As long as government runs ATC, it will always be behind the times in technology and always suffer with poor leadership.

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 12):
1) Congestion pricing for landing slots. ATC and airport capacity cannot be expanded overnight, airlines have proven they will not schedule to actual airport capacity, therefore congestion pricing is the only free-market way to get the delays under control in the short term. If you have a problem with congestion pricing, slot restriction achieves the same thing, although less efficiently.

Amen. I think it's pretty funny that the airlines so violently oppose congestion pricing, yet it's the same scheme they use to price their own product.

I agree with everything on Tdscanuck's list, but would add one more. I would advocate taking the Collaborative Decision Making process one step further and allow airlines at the 5-10 most congested airports to discuss scheduling in advance. While this clearly walks a fine line of anti-trust issues, the airlines could easily relieve congestion by simply reducing duplicate services and overscheduled time blocks.
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: How Would You Improve The U.S ATC System?

Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:24 pm

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 9):
They should introduce peak time pricing to encourage the carriers to smooth out there banks. Market forces would solve some of the overcrowding.



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 12):
Congestion pricing for landing slots.

Peak pricing has never worked. The airlines simply pass on the cost to consumers.

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 12):
Develop RNP approaches for all runways in the US and get the carriers with RNP-capable aircraft to start using them.

Unless you can develop variable glideslopes based on the approach category of the aircraft (which is the plan if the FAA gets it's head out of the sand on LAAS), this does very little to enahnce the operational efficiency of an airport due to wake turbulence separation requirements.
 
baw2198
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RE: How Would You Improve The U.S ATC System?

Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:36 pm

Quoting Akizidy214 (Reply 11):
Productivity of ATC employees.....Increase it. Im not talking about longer work hours. Finding ways to improve basic work out put during a shift.

You can't compare this job with the rest of the world. Its not like a person working at mcdonalds in the drive thru department where you want him to talk to more cars and delivery more food in less time.

Quoting Akizidy214 (Reply 11):
More help from the Govt to find more qualified employees. Better schooling....more trade schools for HS graduates..financial aid etc. With this you get more employees to cover areas where man power is an issue.

Lookup Embry Riddle, Community College of Beaver County, PA University of North Dakota just to name a few. Not to mention Military applicants

Quoting FlyingClrs727 (Reply 14):
Privatize the ATC system

Does not need to happen, shouldn't happen, and has been proven to be a huge mess. Lockheed/martin took over Flight service stations, pilots have to wait upwards of one hour now before being able to talk to a briefer, flight plans are getting lost or not being entered into the NAS. The briefers have no local knowledge about weather patterns in your area of the country. Lockheed has requested money above and beyond the original quote to both consalidate and take over the FSS division.

Privatizing ATC would also be a huge national security risk considering all of the military action that takes place as well as other areas of law enforcement. As well as for the reason's SPREE has already noted above.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 18):
As long as government runs ATC, it will always be behind the times in technology and always suffer with poor leadership.

Poor leadership because the oval office has an adjenda. The top faa jobs should be voted on from within not appointed. The individual to take the job, should be qualified in most of the jobs that they govern ie: Flight standards, Airways Facilities, ATC etc....(being an airline exec doesn't count, and the applicant should be disqualified if they have any affiliation with an airline or have worked for an airline).

If your thinking that poor leadership is just a government thing, let me point out other companies that had dismal leadership and were in the private--> MCI worldcom, Mcleod Industries, Enron, Kodak, USair (steve wolf)


The key to reducing delays is building more runways, getting the airlines to open their schedules up to 24 hours instead of 6am- 1030pm, and using bigger equipment other then RJ's and scheduling them less frequently or atleast stagger the departure/ arrival times better to be more steady instead of all in, all out (which is kindof taking place at JFK slowly)

Rgds

Baw2198
"And remember, Keep your stick on the ice"--->Red Green
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: How Would You Improve The U.S ATC System?

Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:58 pm

The American ATC system works pretty damned good. It handles the most traffic, as far as I know, than any other system, and when was the last time you heard ATC blamed for an accident?

The majority of delays are coming from too many slots being scheduled into the major airports at the the same time by the airlines, during peak periods. As was mentioned, weather is also a major cause of delays. Nothing can be done about thunderstorms, though.

The airlines insist they are mostly innocent. They are trying to blame ATC and General Aviation for the problems. Any routing delays that ATC has to deal with are usually because of airlines stacked up over airports they've overscheduled.

There just isn't enough runway or terminal space to accommodate the airlines. If you gave ATC magic wands, they still couldn't possibly cram any more tin onto the major airports, during peak hours.

As guilty as they are, the airlines do have some monkeys on their back. What airline would give up primo slots, unilaterally, just to ease congestion? At the same time, if they get together to work out something more reasonable, they come up against the monopoly watch dogs.

Forcing the airlines to space their flights better over the day, (and night but the nimbys would kill that), would help a lot but that would require the feds getting back into the airline business and the airlines would really freak at that. On the other hand, that's probably what's going to have to happen over the next few years.
What the...?
 
j.mo
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RE: How Would You Improve The U.S ATC System?

Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:24 pm

I think it has all been said here.

Privatization is not the answer. Ask the head of AOPA how well that turned out for him with Flight Service. Serves him right.

http://www.aopa.org/flightplanning/articles/2007/071010lockheed.html

The FAA needs to put competent people in charge. From the top on down aviation or military experience should be a must. For some reason they keep hiring failed airline execs for leaders of the ATO.

We also just received a briefing on the future of the ATO and how it plans to work with the aviation community. I will tell you this, GA is not considered part of the aviation community. The focus is on airlines, airlines and airlines.

We are also moving towards a more business friendly approach. Pretty soon controllers will be "associates" or "team members." Airlines are already referred to as customers.

JM
 
nucsh
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RE: How Would You Improve The U.S ATC System?

Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:40 pm

Quoting J.mo (Reply 22):
I will tell you this, GA is not considered part of the aviation community. The focus is on airlines, airlines and airlines.

The day that the general aviation community is left behind and forgotten is the day that the airlines will start dying. They'll get their extra room in the skies, but they wont have a way of filling up those pilot slots that some regionals are already having issues filling.
If landing is about "kissing" the ground, you just about raped it.
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5260
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RE: How Would You Improve The U.S ATC System?

Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:45 pm

Quoting BAW2198 (Reply 20):
Poor leadership because the oval office has an adjenda.

Who's in the Oval Office has little relevance. The FAA has suffered from poor leadership for decades spanning all administrations.

And even if the FAA got a good leader, the person would be overwhelmed by the layers of bloated inefficient government workers that work for them. And being government, you can't fire them for being slow/inefficient...you can only hope they retire.

As long as government is in charge, the ATC system will be inherently inefficient. I'm not necessarily arguing for privatization, but if you want government in charge you will have to accept a large amount of incompetence and inefficiency.

Quoting BAW2198 (Reply 20):
The key to reducing delays is building more runways,

Not practical at some of the most congested airports (JFK, EWR, PHL).

Quoting BAW2198 (Reply 20):
getting the airlines to open their schedules up to 24 hours instead of 6am- 1030pm,

Who wants to fly LGA-CHS at 3am? No one. Not to mention that increasing flight operations at night would create a slew of lawsuits from the NIMBY's that live around these airports.
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: How Would You Improve The U.S ATC System?

Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:51 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 24):
Who wants to fly LGA-CHS at 3am? No one. Not to mention that increasing flight operations at night would create a slew of lawsuits from the NIMBY's that live around these airports.

Major Asian airlines do a huge deal of their business at night. Most flights I've taken out of DXB, DOH and SIN have been in the wee hours of the morning. Travellers can adapt...the whine of the NIMBY's would drown out the roar of the engines...no matter how quiet the planes were...
What the...?
 
SPREE34
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RE: How Would You Improve The U.S ATC System?

Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:23 pm

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 19):
Peak pricing has never worked. The airlines simply pass on the cost to consumers.

That's the whole point. Joe consumer will take the off peak flight instead to save a few bucks. Peak time flights will be reduced due to lessening demand.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 18):
As long as government runs ATC, it will always be behind the times in technology

It didn't use to be that way. Let's fix it.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 18):
If that's the case, then shouldn't all airlines be run by the government?

The airlines product is not safety. It's transportation, and yes, they have to do it safely.
ATC's prime product is safety.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 24):
And even if the FAA got a good leader, the person would be overwhelmed by the layers of bloated inefficient government workers that work for them. And being government, you can't fire them for being slow/inefficient...you can only hope they retire.

Yes, you can fire them. You just have to be competent, have the balls to do it, and do it right.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 24):
if you want government in charge you will have to accept a large amount of incompetence and inefficiency.

Negative. You don't have to accept it. But to change it you have to get off your ass and do some letter writing and be willing to show up at your polling place every couple of years.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
b777a340fan
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RE: How Would You Improve The U.S ATC System?

Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:33 pm

1) Create a company funded by the FAA and the airlines to perform extensive research into more efficient navigation/sensory systems that would allow greater precision/security for more crowded skies.

2) Instill at each airport a non-negotiable amount of landing/take-off slots at each airport.

3) Better staffed/trained control centers/towers.

4) Build more alternate airports.
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: How Would You Improve The U.S ATC System?

Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:41 pm

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 26):
It didn't use to be that way. Let's fix it.

It's always been this way....thought it has gotten worse in recent times. Even the NextGen system currently being worked on will be behind the times by time it comes on-line.

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 26):
The airlines product is not safety. It's transportation, and yes, they have to do it safely.

I think you're really spliting hairs. The primary job of ATC is to move planes...safely. The primary job of airlines is to move people...safely. Safety is paramount for both.

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 26):
You don't have to accept it. But to change it you have to get off your ass and do some letter writing and be willing to show up at your polling place every couple of years.

You can write all the letters you want and vote all you want, but government will still be inefficient. Government is inherently inefficient because it has no competition and little incentive to perform.
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: How Would You Improve The U.S ATC System?

Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:42 pm

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 26):
Peak time flights will be reduced due to lessening demand.

It doesn't work. The airlines redistribute that cost across the entire operation at the airport, including off peak operations that don't carry the higher charge. The total cost of flying from the airport increases, but the resulting change is so minor as a net operation it becomes irrelivant. This does nothing to deter people from flying. The only thing it does is create a barrier to market entry for a one off carrier who needs that peak hour operation to maximize revenue potential vs. the established carrier.
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: How Would You Improve The U.S ATC System?

Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:49 pm

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 29):
The airlines redistribute that cost across the entire operation at the airport, including off peak operations that don't carry the higher charge. The total cost of flying from the airport increases, but the resulting change is so minor as a net operation it becomes irrelivant. This does nothing to deter people from flying. The only thing it does is create a barrier to market entry for a one off carrier who needs that peak hour operation to maximize revenue potential vs. the established carrier.

If you push the fees high enough, the fares will go high enough that consumers will start to look at other options. Many of the congested airports in the country have underused alternates that could pick up this demand. If congestion pricing means that fares at PHL are $100 higher, all of the sudden flying out of alternates like ILG or TTN might not look so bad. Right now, ILG/TTN see little or no service because fares at PHL are so low. The low fares don't reflect the congestion being created by all the traffic pushing to use PHL.
 
ShyFlyer
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RE: How Would You Improve The U.S ATC System?

Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:59 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 28):
The primary job of airlines is to move people

The primary job of an airline is to make money. An airline that does not make money will not be around for very long, regardless of its safety record. Safety is, of course, essential to an airline. But safety is not the first thing on the executives' minds.
I lift things up and put them down.
 
PanAm747
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RE: How Would You Improve The U.S ATC System?

Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:59 pm

  • Create a new FAA that functions like the United States Federal Reserve - independent, immune from any government meddling and interference, able to react quickly and decisively, and serving SOLELY to meet the needs of the air traffic of the United States. If the Federal Reserve can function like this - and there are ALWAYS those in every branch of government trying hard to influence the fed to their point of view, and almost always are in vain - then an FAA set up similiarly can do so as well.

  • Slot-control every commercial airport. By this, I mean determine the maximum capacity (under ideal circumstances, of course) and limit operations to that number. Obviously, many airports will end up with WAY more than they will ever use (BFL comes to mind), but other airports will be scheduled much more realistically. EWR, for example, comes to mind. There is no conceivable way that every scheduled flight per day could operate on time - yet the "lie" of the scheduling continues, even though everyone KNOWS it is a lie.

  • Re-design the airspace on the east coast. A sneeze in the control room at JFK or a cloud over IAD should not have to shut down the entire United States system - if there's a problem at one airport, isolate it, and work around it. PHL is chronically delayed due primarily to problems in NYC!! There is simply no reason for that.

  • Require airlines, airports, and the FAA to have congtingency plans in case of massive weather delays and shutdowns. Recall that the hardest part of dealing with DEN's Siberian-like blizzard last winter was not in taking care of the passengers, but rather in what to do with them when the blizzard was over!! Saying (for the most part), "too bad, so sad, but we've got other passengers to fly" is simply inhumane.

    Notice that all parts of my plan require leadership, intelligence, determination, and long-term thinking. That's why it will never happen. It's too easy to just pass the buck and hope that your flight isn't delayed.
  • Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
     
    baw2198
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    RE: How Would You Improve The U.S ATC System?

    Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:59 pm

    Quoting B777A340Fan (Reply 27):
    3) Better staffed/trained control centers/towers.

    We already have a great workforce of controllers, I wouldn't change that for anything. The problem is incompetent management who have no clue as to what we do on the front lines day in and day out and then come up with some BS rule that doesn't make sense. The key to fixing the FAA is TOP down, not bottom up

    Baw2198
    "And remember, Keep your stick on the ice"--->Red Green
     
    nucsh
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    RE: How Would You Improve The U.S ATC System?

    Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:36 pm

    Quoting BAW2198 (Reply 33):
    We already have a great workforce of controllers

    I know we're talking about controllers of busy and congested airspace for the most part, but I've had quite a few problems with local controllers (appr control near to where I am located) on clear and traffic free days. I can imagine how much worse NYC would be if some of the nearby guys were transferred there...

    [Edited 2007-10-30 13:38:55]
    If landing is about "kissing" the ground, you just about raped it.
     
    AA777ER
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    RE: How Would You Improve The U.S ATC System?

    Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:48 pm

    Quoting P3Orion (Thread starter):

    Its very simple............................


    Do NOT allow any AC Land at the 10 Busiest/ Major hubs Airports with less than 100 seats...........................


    Do NOT allow any AC with Less than 50 seat into the next 10 Busiest/Airports..................


    Problem solved
     
    SPREE34
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    RE: How Would You Improve The U.S ATC System?

    Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:11 pm

    Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 28):
    The primary job of ATC is to move planes...safely.

    You are wrong. You may believe that is the reality, many do, and many want it that way. (even some ATCs)
    The FAA Order says "Safe, Orderly, and Expeditious". "Moving" airplanes is 3rd in the lineup for a reason.

    Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 29):
    It doesn't work. The airlines redistribute that cost across the entire operation at the airport

    I see your point. If they passed a peak time charge on to the PAX of the peak time flights only, and stated so on the ticket/website, do you think peak time pricing would work?
    I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
     
    nucsh
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    RE: How Would You Improve The U.S ATC System?

    Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:11 pm

    Quoting AA777ER (Reply 35):
    Do NOT allow any AC with Less than 50 seat into the next 10 Busiest/Airports..................

    Are you including GA and business into the equation? I can understand why you wouldn't let either into a top 10 airport, but into places slightly less busy (with little choice for a local alternate) it might not be an issue.

    Take for instance Charlotte, NC. It's 10th nationwide in operations and 18th nationwide in passengers (taken from KCLT's website and sourced to the Airports Council Intl). I recently flew there in a 172 with no issues, no backup, and great service from ATC (and at 1900).

    Not to mention that it's USAirways' biggest hub and that they have a huge regional presence at CLT. To limit operations to 50 seat (or even 100 seat) or more aircraft into CLT just because it's a top 20 airport would kill a good deal of traffic into the area and would decimate the economy of local smaller populations.

    You solution has the potential to make problems worse. Not every airport is as messed up as some of those in the congested NE.
    If landing is about "kissing" the ground, you just about raped it.
     
    Mir
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    RE: How Would You Improve The U.S ATC System?

    Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:16 pm

    Quoting AA777ER (Reply 35):
    Problem solved

    And many more problems created.

    -Mir
    7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
     
    Boeing7E7
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    RE: How Would You Improve The U.S ATC System?

    Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:15 pm

    Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 36):
    I see your point. If they passed a peak time charge on to the PAX of the peak time flights only, and stated so on the ticket/website, do you think peak time pricing would work?

    In order for that to happen, the DOT would have to mandate it and that would be re-regulation. Setting a capacity standard is the only way to ensure that the action is not arbitrary or discriminatory.

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