ont 737
Posts: 606
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Is "beyond Point Ticketing" Unethical?

Thu Jan 24, 2008 9:38 pm

AA thinks so. AA says that it is the equivalent of "switching price tags", I thought of it like only eating half of the hamburger that you have paid for. What is you take on this?


http://www.aa.com/content/agency/Boo...ng/Ticketing/hidden_city_ltr.jhtml


Dear,

Let me take the opportunity to clarify American Airlines position on hidden city or point beyond ticketing. Purchasing a ticket to a point beyond the actual destination and getting off the aircraft at the connecting point is unethical. It is tantamount to switching price tags to obtain a lower price on goods sold at department stores. Passengers who attempt to use hidden city tickets may be denied boarding, have the remainder of their ticket confiscated and may be assessed the difference between the fare paid and the lowest applicable fare.

Because we compete with other airlines with different route structures, we sometimes find it necessary to give a traveler who is traveling beyond a connecting point a better price than travelers who are just traveling to the connecting point. For example, a passenger who is traveling to Austin, Texas from Los Angeles can go on one airline via Phoenix for a price that is lower than the cost of traveling on American between Los Angeles and Dallas. If we want to offer the same price to Austin as the other airline, but the only way we can get travelers there is via Dallas, we find ourselves charging the Austin passengers less than the Dallas passengers.

Although the issuance and usage of hidden city tickets is not illegal in the sense that one could be fined or sent to jail by the government, it is unethical and a breach of a passengers contract with AA. Both tariff rule 100AA and American's Condition of Carriage, which are incorporated into every ticket sold by American as part of our agreement to carry the passenger named on the ticket, bar hidden city ticketing. In addition, it violates the agencys' contract to act as an agent for American Airlines.

If American Airlines continues to lose revenue as a result of hidden city transactions, the fares we charge must inevitably rise.

Sincerely,
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Is "beyond Point Ticketing" Unethica

Thu Jan 24, 2008 9:54 pm

FWIW, it seems like an unfair use of AA's superior bargaining power to me. Two ought to be able to play the game... why should AA be the only one who gets to do it just because they are in a superior position?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
ont 737
Posts: 606
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RE: Is "beyond Point Ticketing" Unethica

Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:36 pm

This was orignially in the civil aviation forum and was moved by the moderators to here. I guess they think this is a poll. This was meaning to be a discussion on AA's booking policy. If this is a poll then I can see 30 posts over in the other forum that need to get moved over here. How about "Are Airbus-Boeing Each Happy With 50-50?"
 
ATCtower
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RE: Is "beyond Point Ticketing" Unethica

Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:29 pm



Quoting Ont 737 (Reply 2):
This was orignially in the civil aviation forum and was moved by the moderators to here. I guess they think this is a poll. This was meaning to be a discussion on AA's booking policy. If this is a poll then I can see 30 posts over in the other forum that need to get moved over here. How about "Are Airbus-Boeing Each Happy With 50-50?"

A lot of threads get moved between forums that likely shouldnt, but oh well.

This would seem like a win-win situation to me. Most occasions I can see the objections from both sides, but in a case such as this. You are paying to take another flight which you are not taking. Is is unethical? Absolutly not. Is it smart? Absolutly. If you can find a beyond point ticket and do not need to check luggage, it is entirely to your advantage. My question comes as to why AA would make such a stink about the matter considering you not taking this flight cuts the weight down (thought not significantly). If four people were to exit the plane and not return for the continuing flight, the airline would theoretically be saving the exact amount of fuel to carry said 4 passengers on the following flight.

my  twocents 
By reading the above post you waive all rights to be offended. If you do not like what you read, forget it.
 
Leskova
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RE: Is "beyond Point Ticketing" Unethica

Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:28 pm



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 1):
FWIW, it seems like an unfair use of AA's superior bargaining power to me. Two ought to be able to play the game... why should AA be the only one who gets to do it just because they are in a superior position?

What superior bargaining power? The fact that AA (amongst other airlines) has to resort to such tactics is a perfect example of airlines lacking "bargaining power": they have to offer connections that are more expensive to them at a lower price...

At the end of the day, no-one gets forced to fly AA - you could always opt to fly US via PHX, or WN probably via DAL or somewhere else... or UA via DEN...

AA sees a need to compete with US via PHX, and - as they write - they can only offer the flight in this example via DFW. It's either compete with US via PHX, or lose passengers.

Bargaining power, in this sense, would be if AA could charge whatever they want for the flight - something that's clearly not the case.

Quoting ATCtower (Reply 3):
You are paying to take another flight which you are not taking. Is is unethical? Absolutly not. Is it smart? Absolutly.

You're actually paying less for not taking the flight that you've booked - I don't really think that "unethical" really is the right term here... I'd also agree that I don't really consider it something illegal.

But saying that it's smart? I'd say it's about as smart as shooting yourself in your own foot... because at the end of the day, it's precisely fare abuses such as this that cause fares to be as complex as they are, and it'll eventually cause an increase in fares.

Now if you consider that smart...
Smile - it confuses people!
 
ATCtower
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RE: Is "beyond Point Ticketing" Unethica

Sun Jan 27, 2008 6:08 pm



Quoting Leskova (Reply 4):
But saying that it's smart? I'd say it's about as smart as shooting yourself in your own foot... because at the end of the day, it's precisely fare abuses such as this that cause fares to be as complex as they are, and it'll eventually cause an increase in fares.

Now if you consider that smart...

I sure as hell consider it smart on behalf of the consumer. I do not consider this an abuse by the consumer, but we will use your term for that. Abuses such as this are not the cause of airline ticket price structuring. The price structuring is a result of endless research into O&D markets, supply v. demand, operating costs, operating revenue, and so much more... If you really think airline fares are complex because a few consumers utilize use beyond point ticketing, you may need to read a little more into Airline Managment/Marketing.

my twocents 
By reading the above post you waive all rights to be offended. If you do not like what you read, forget it.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Is "beyond Point Ticketing" Unethica

Sun Jan 27, 2008 6:49 pm

It's not unethical. It is using the unnecessarily convulted fares system that the airlines have implemented for their own benefit, against them. If AA want to compete with US on AUS-LAX, they should put a flight on from AUS to LAX and charge the competing fare. If they insist that the only way they can offer service is via DFW and the AUS-DFW-LAX ticket is cheaper than AUS-DFW, how does that make sense ? How is the cost of the ticket reflecting the cost to deliver the service. Effectively the AUS-DFW pax are subsidizing the AUS-LAX passengers. Anyone who can take advantage of this entirely unrealistic system and get away with is simply playing the airlines at their own game.

Simple solution = sector fares. That way everyone gets to pay for what they use.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Is "beyond Point Ticketing" Unethica

Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:45 am



Quoting Leskova (Reply 4):
What superior bargaining power? The fact that AA (amongst other airlines) has to resort to such tactics is a perfect example of airlines lacking "bargaining power": they have to offer connections that are more expensive to them at a lower price...

Large firms almost always have better bargaining power than individual consumers... if I want to fly AA, I accept their contract of carriage. End of story.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
signol
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RE: Is "beyond Point Ticketing" Unethica

Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:39 am

Unfair as it is, we are bound by the terms and conditions of carriage by the airline - it is their service after all  Sad
There's a similar situation regarding cross-channel ferries between the UK and France. I noticed the ts&cs of Eurotunnel, who transport cars on their trains through the tunnel. Often there are special "Day Returns" or short breaks (enabling booze cruises!) for as little as £10 for a car, but a standard single is around £80. So, can you buy a day return and not come back? No...

=======================
http://www.eurotunnel.co.uk/ukcP3Mai...kcLegalInfo/ukcTermsAndConditions/


1.1 Your booking is only valid for the booked departure date and time and the vehicle type stated.

Failure to complete both the outward and return journeys in respect of a return booking will invalidate your booking and in the event that you complete only one journey in respect of a return booking, you will be liable to pay the difference between the price that you paid for your return booking and the single fare applicable at the time that your journey was made. Eurotunnel reserves the right to obtain from you payment in full for all sums so arising.
=======================

Basically, if you fail to turn up for the return, your credit card will be charged for the difference to a full fare single. By buying the ticket you agree to this.

signol
Flights booked: NWI-AMS-JNB-DUR, JNB-AMS-NWI
 
bond007
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RE: Is "beyond Point Ticketing" Unethica

Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:24 pm



Quoting ONT 737 (Thread starter):
It is tantamount to switching price tags to obtain a lower price on goods sold at department stores.

Unethical perhaps .... but it is hardly comparable to switching price tags. I fail to see where the airline is at a disadvantage by a passenger missing the final leg. In fact it might be to their advanatage in terms of available seats.

Quoting ATCtower (Reply 3):
Is is unethical? Absolutly not. Is

Well, like it or not, it's a breach of your contract with the airline ... so it is unethical. Whether it should be a breach of contract is another matter.

Quoting ATCtower (Reply 5):
The price structuring is a result of endless research into O&D markets, supply v. demand, operating costs, operating revenue, and so much more...

Wow, you're giving the airlines far too much credit for their mis-managed, antiquated, over complex pricing procedures and formulas. It's no coincidence that generally, those more successful airlines are the ones that have sector pricing, and few fare types.


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
ATCtower
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RE: Is "beyond Point Ticketing" Unethica

Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:50 pm



Quoting Bond007 (Reply 9):
Wow, you're giving the airlines far too much credit for their mis-managed, antiquated, over complex pricing procedures and formulas. It's no coincidence that generally, those more successful airlines are the ones that have sector pricing, and few fare types.

There is a big difference between giving too much credit and being educated on a subject. The coincidence that airlines with sector pricing are generally more successful is just that, a coincidence. Any business will be more successful when thurough research is exhibited.

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 9):
Well, like it or not, it's a breach of your contract with the airline ... so it is unethical. Whether it should be a breach of contract is another matter.

Technically it is a breach of contract, but there is no sustainable penalty they could impose. There are numerous breaches to the contract which the airline is able to impose a penalty including denial of carriage. There is no clause that states you owe the airline any sort of fare difference for exiting the contract prematurely, resulting in the subject being a moot point legally. Now if the airline were to feel so strongly they changed their CC to include a clause stating you are liable for the fare difference, and actually enforced said clause, the airline would be well within their right, though I would strongly disagree with it.
My  twocents 
By reading the above post you waive all rights to be offended. If you do not like what you read, forget it.
 
bond007
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RE: Is "beyond Point Ticketing" Unethica

Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:05 pm



Quoting ATCtower (Reply 10):
The coincidence that airlines with sector pricing are generally more successful is just that, a coincidence.

Absolutely not ... but I guess we'll agree to disagree!

Quoting ATCtower (Reply 10):
Any business will be more successful when thurough research is exhibited.

I didn't say anything about not doing thorough research. Airlines that have few fare types and sector pricing, don't necessarily do any less research than those that don't .. in fact I would argue they have done far better research into what works ... rather than relying on 30 year old over-complex outdated pricing systems that simply don't work.

Quoting ATCtower (Reply 10):
Technically it is a breach of contract

Then most would agree that a breach of contract is unethical ....


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
Analog
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RE: Is "beyond Point Ticketing" Unethica

Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:30 pm



Quoting Leskova (Reply 4):
But saying that it's smart? I'd say it's about as smart as shooting yourself in your own foot... because at the end of the day, it's precisely fare abuses such as this that cause fares to be as complex as they are, and it'll eventually cause an increase in fares.

How? In the presence of rampant hidden-city ticketing, the airline would probably have to rationalize their fares. The fare might go up on the city pair that you purchased, but it's doubtful that the fare for the city pair flown would increase. In fact it would probably decrease.

Quoting ATCtower (Reply 10):
Technically it is a breach of contract, but there is no sustainable penalty they could impose.

Really? Does the contract of carriage meet the requirements to be a real contract? What if person X buys the ticket from airline Z, and gives the ticket to person Y? What are Y's contractual obligations? What if Y is a minor and X is not the minor's guardian? IANAL.

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 11):
Then most would agree that a breach of contract is unethical ....

A breach of contract is not always unethical. If the actions required by a contract itself were unethical (not saying a CC is) would breaching that contract be unethical?
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Is "beyond Point Ticketing" Unethica

Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:34 pm



Quoting Analog (Reply 12):
Really? Does the contract of carriage meet the requirements to be a real contract?

Sure... there's an offer, an acceptance, and consideration... Contracts 101.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
bond007
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RE: Is "beyond Point Ticketing" Unethica

Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:12 pm



Quoting Analog (Reply 12):
A breach of contract is not always unethical. If the actions required by a contract itself were unethical (not saying a CC is) would breaching that contract be unethical?

OK then, in this context!

If the actions required by the contract were unethical, then you shouldn't have agreed to it perhaps.
Of course, I'm sure 'unethical' contracts exist ...

That's why you should always read the small print.

Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
Analog
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RE: Is "beyond Point Ticketing" Unethica

Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:10 pm



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 13):
Sure... there's an offer, an acceptance, and consideration... Contracts 101.

The AA CoC is between the passenger, not the purchaser, and AA:

Quote:
Your ticket and the following Conditions of Carriage constitute the contract between you, the passenger, and American Airlines, Inc. American Eagle ("American")

If you are given a ticket by someone else as a gift is the CoC a valid contract between the passenger and AA? If a minor purchases a ticket (or is given a ticket as a gift), is the CoC still valid?
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Is "beyond Point Ticketing" Unethica

Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:45 pm



Quoting Analog (Reply 15):
If you are given a ticket by someone else as a gift is the CoC a valid contract between the passenger and AA? If a minor purchases a ticket (or is given a ticket as a gift), is the CoC still valid?

Contracts can (and do) have third-party beneficiaries, and I would argue that where the passenger and the purchaser are not the same person, the contract of carriage is a contract with the purchaser (notwithstanding what it says), and the passenger is a third-party beneficiary, which makes the contract enforceable. Obviously, if the purchaser and the passenger are the same person, this point is academic only. (Note that my knowledge of commercial law is fairly limited, so I'm just piecing this together with basic contract law principles).

A contract with a minor for an air ticket would be voidable, but as the purchaser doesn't really have any obligations besides payment, which typically occurs at the time of purchase, that's something of a moot point.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
PanAm747
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RE: Is "beyond Point Ticketing" Unethica

Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:18 pm



Quote:
This was orignially in the civil aviation forum and was moved by the moderators to here. I guess they think this is a poll. This was meaning to be a discussion on AA's booking policy. If this is a poll then I can see 30 posts over in the other forum that need to get moved over here. How about "Are Airbus-Boeing Each Happy With 50-50?"

A lot of threads get moved between forums that likely shouldnt, but oh well.

 checkmark 

I'd also like to see a different note show up that says something other than, "In the future, do not attempt to post to a topic that has been deleted". If the moderators want to delete or move a thread, that's their perogative, but implying that it was my fault because I have these magic powers to summon deleted threads and waste someone's time by attempting to reply to something I should have KNOWN was already deleted is really childish.  banghead 

Rant over.

Having said that, the word "unethical" implies that a person is doing something to be immoral, malicious or harmful. In the true sense of the definition, beyond-point-ticketing is not unethical.

It is a CLEAR violation of the contract of carraige rules that are in the fine print that every airline hides, and the airlines have the right to prosecute as they see fit. Sorry that SAN-CVG is more expensive than SAN-CVG-DAY, but that's the airlines choice to price, and you're stuck with it.

Is it wrong to want to save money under a very silly and stupid system? No. Is it legal? No. But that's the way it is.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
Analog
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RE: Is "beyond Point Ticketing" Unethica

Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:13 pm

I find their use of a brand name snack bar in the CoC amusing:

Quote:
In the case of extraordinary events that result in very lengthy onboard delays, American Airlines and American Eagle will make every reasonable effort to ensure that essential needs of food (snack bar such as Nutri-Grain®)



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 16):
A contract with a minor for an air ticket would be voidable, but as the purchaser doesn't really have any obligations besides payment, which typically occurs at the time of purchase, that's something of a moot point.

AA reserves the right to collect additional payment if you break the CoC:

Quote:
Where a ticket is invalidated as the result of the passenger's non-compliance with any term or condition of sale, American has the right in its sole discretion to:
...
d. Assess the passenger for the reasonable remaining value of the ticket, which shall be no less than the difference between the fare actually paid and the lowest fare applicable to the passenger's actual itinerary



Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 17):
Is it wrong to want to save money under a very silly and stupid system? No. Is it legal? No. But that's the way it is.

Is it illegal?
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Is "beyond Point Ticketing" Unethica

Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:50 pm



Quoting Analog (Reply 18):

Is it illegal?

It's pretty clearly a breach of the CoC... define "illegal" how you will.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Viscount724
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RE: Is "beyond Point Ticketing" Unethica

Thu Jan 31, 2008 12:12 am



Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 17):
Sorry that SAN-CVG is more expensive than SAN-CVG-DAY, but that's the airlines choice to price, and you're stuck with it.

A nonstop SAN-CVG is a better product than a one-stop connection SAN-CVG-DAY so why shoudn't it be priced higher if passengers are willing to pay the higher price? From SAN to DAY, the carrier is no doubt competing with a few other carriers serving the market via their own hub so they have to be competitive with those fares or they won't be carrying anybody to DAY.

Are you saying that just because another carrier may have a lower SAN-DAY fare via XYZ, the carrier operating SAN-CVG-DAY shouldn't be able to match that fare, and should also be forced to depress the SAN-CVG nonstop fare? That's not how deregulated pricing works. You charge what the market will bear for every city pair.

It's the same all over the world. BA fares to points in Europe beyond LHR (and sometimes even to points as far as Africa or the Middle East) are often cheaper than their fares to LHR. That's because LHR is such a strong O&D market that passengers are willing to pay those fares. To FRA/FCO/ATH/CPH etc. they're competing with a dozen or more carriers and have to consider the going fares in those markets. Airlines of course use sophisticated revenue and inventory management systems to ensure they give priority to the markets with the highest fares, but selliing lower fares to points beyond your hub helps fill empty seats. Without that revenue the fares to the hub would probably be even higher.
 
bond007
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RE: Is "beyond Point Ticketing" Unethica

Thu Jan 31, 2008 12:40 am



Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 17):
Having said that, the word "unethical" implies that a person is doing something to be immoral, malicious or harmful. In the true sense of the definition, beyond-point-ticketing is not unethical.

Not in my book:

"Not conforming... or being in accordance with the rules or standards for right conduct or practice"

Pretty much covers it IMO.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 20):
Are you saying that just because another carrier may have a lower SAN-DAY fare via XYZ, the carrier operating SAN-CVG-DAY shouldn't be able to match that fare,

He isn't saying that ... since you quoted what he did say:

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 17):
but that's the airlines choice to price, and you're stuck with it.

Yep! ... or get off at the first stop of course  Wink

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 20):
Airlines of course use sophisticated revenue and inventory management systems to ensure they give priority to the markets

Somebody else who gives the airlines far too much credit for their pricing.

One of the reasons so many airlines ended up in trouble IMO, is because they failed to price their tickets appropriately, and tried to compete with LCCs on segments that they could never make a penny on... but they just had to offer the same or lower price regardless. No other businesses operate the way airlines do ... fortunately.


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
Viscount724
Posts: 18839
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RE: Is "beyond Point Ticketing" Unethica

Thu Jan 31, 2008 12:54 am



Quoting Bond007 (Reply 21):
No other businesses operate the way airlines do ... fortunately.

Big difference is that an empty airline seat on a flight departing now is pure lost revenue. You can't put it back in inventory and sell it tomorrow or next month.
 
bond007
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RE: Is "beyond Point Ticketing" Unethica

Thu Jan 31, 2008 3:02 am



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 22):
Big difference is that an empty airline seat on a flight departing now is pure lost revenue. You can't put it back in inventory and sell it tomorrow or next month.

Many businesses operate with similar products and/or services. In fact most of them work completely the opposite in terms of pricing ... when you need to sell something because you can't "put it back in inventory and sell it tomorrow or next month", they are sold at a discount. I'm not suggesting airlines do the same - but IMO their pricing has been a huge part of their problems.

Yes, the airline business is somewhat unique ... but some airline managers seem to think you can forget Business 101.


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
luv2cattlecall
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RE: Is "beyond Point Ticketing" Unethica

Thu Jan 31, 2008 3:44 am

I like WN's policy:

With respect to all of our fares, Southwest Airlines does not prohibit or penalize what is commonly known as “hidden city” ticketing, nor does it prohibit or penalize what is commonly known as “back to back” ticketing.

What I don't like is AA sounding hostile toward their customers because the people that will do a hidden city itinerary will still do it, and those who wouldn't do it won't... that blurb by AA isn't going to change many peoples' minds about it but the tone of it does put me off as an occasional customer.
.
 
xjramper
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RE: Is "beyond Point Ticketing" Unethica

Thu Jan 31, 2008 4:03 am



Quoting Luv2cattlecall (Reply 24):
What I don't like is AA sounding hostile toward their customers because the people that will do a hidden city itinerary will still do it, and those who wouldn't do it won't... that blurb by AA isn't going to change many peoples' minds about it but the tone of it does put me off as an occasional customer.

Most people don't realize that this can be done. Those that do, just like you said, will continue to do it.

But, I don't blame them for the tone of the letter. However, why can AA (or any business for that matter) scalp the customer and we just have to sit idly by?

XJR
Look ma' no hands!
 
Analog
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RE: Is "beyond Point Ticketing" Unethica

Thu Jan 31, 2008 5:40 am



Quoting Bond007 (Reply 21):

Not in my book:

"Not conforming... or being in accordance with the rules or standards for right conduct or practice"

Pretty much covers it IMO.

Really? Is using less than what you paid for unethical? It may not be in accordance with the airline's rules, but those are not my "rules or standards for right conduct or practice".

What if you change your mind about your destination after the purchase. Is it unethical to just get off at the first stop?

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 22):
Big difference is that an empty airline seat on a flight departing now is pure lost revenue.

No it's not. If you skip the second leg the airline could put a standby passenger in that seat. Even if not, at the point where you make the decision to get on the second flight or not, your choice not to get on saves the airline a small amount of money. The most expensive choice (for the airline) that you can make at the connecting point is to continue as ticketed. Every other choice is profit for the airline. It was their choice to sell you that seat for that price. If it hurts them financially, then they should not have sold it.
 
bond007
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RE: Is "beyond Point Ticketing" Unethica

Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:55 am



Quoting Analog (Reply 26):
Really? Is using less than what you paid for unethical? It may not be in accordance with the airline's rules, but those are not my "rules or standards for right conduct or practice".

Whatever! You convince yourself that it's not unethical ... really doesn't matter what you call it.

Quoting Analog (Reply 26):
What if you change your mind about your destination after the purchase. Is it unethical to just get off at the first stop?

The thread isn't about changing your mind. Of course it isn't 'unethical' to do that. It's not even breaching the contract. That's not what we're discussing.



Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
Analog
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RE: Is "beyond Point Ticketing" Unethica

Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:08 pm



Quoting Bond007 (Reply 27):
The thread isn't about changing your mind. Of course it isn't 'unethical' to do that. It's not even breaching the contract. That's not what we're discussing.

If you buy a one-way ticket XXX-YYY-ZZZ (that happens to be cheaper than XXX-YYY) intending to go to ZZZ, but then later decide that you really want to go to YYY, and you get off at YYY, isn't that a breach of the contract?
 
Viscount724
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RE: Is "beyond Point Ticketing" Unethica

Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:13 am



Quoting Analog (Reply 26):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 22):
Big difference is that an empty airline seat on a flight departing now is pure lost revenue.

No it's not. If you skip the second leg the airline could put a standby passenger in that seat. Even if not, at the point where you make the decision to get on the second flight or not, your choice not to get on saves the airline a small amount of money.

A large number of flights don't have last-minute standby passengers waiting for a seat to open up. If, say, 10 passengers booked on a connecting flight no-show because they only ever planned to use the first flight, in most cases it means the airline has been holding seats on the connecting flight that they may have been able to sell earlier.

And, if there was meal service on the connecting flight, meals would have been ordered based on the booked load and will be wasted when the 10 passengers no-show. Can also mean they load more fuel than necessry based on the originally expected payload including those 10 passengers. Can also mean a delayed departure as when those 10 passengers who were probably checked-in to the final "fictitious" destination fail to show for the connecting flight, the airline has to check to see if they checked any baggage (which they obviously woudln't have) so it can be removed for security reasons. All that takes time.
 
hamad
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RE: Is "beyond Point Ticketing" Unethica

Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:18 am



Quoting Bond007 (Reply 9):
Well, like it or not, it's a breach of your contract with the airline ... so it is unethical. Whether it should be a breach of contract is another matter.

they will use that to their advantage, especially if the connecting flight is over booked and they need volunteers.
PHX - i miss spotting
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Is "beyond Point Ticketing" Unethica

Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:25 pm



Quoting Analog (Reply 28):
isn't that a breach of the contract?

It's an efficient breach, right? Everyone is better off.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
ATCtower
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RE: Is "beyond Point Ticketing" Unethica

Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:36 pm



Quoting Bond007 (Reply 27):
Whatever! You convince yourself that it's not unethical ... really doesn't matter what you call it.

I call it making money for the airline. Sure you are paying the lower fare but look at everything the airline is not spending on you taking that flight.
1. Fuel savings for not carrying said passenger
2. Snack service savings (soda, pretzels)
3. Personnel savings
4. No paying FF miles on un-flown routes
5. Ancillary costs (inflight magazines, ticket stubs, etc.)

Albeit, these costs could be quite minuscule at a single pax level, but costs add up quickly when multiple people use the technique. Remember US saved $14,000 some years back by reducing the number of olives in the first class salads...
my twocents 
By reading the above post you waive all rights to be offended. If you do not like what you read, forget it.
 
Yellowstone
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RE: Is "beyond Point Ticketing" Unethica

Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:32 pm



Quoting Analog (Reply 26):
Really? Is using less than what you paid for unethical?

No, but that's not what's going on here, according to the contract of carriage. If I book a trip from BOS to SJC via MSP, I have not purchased the right to one seat on a flight from BOS to MSP, and then another seat from MSP to SJC. I have purchased the right to transport from BOS to SJC. If I were to stop in MSP, I am not using less than what I paid for, I am using something that (by the CoC) is completely different than what I paid for. Hence the "switching price tags" analogy. I paid for a trip from BOS to SJC but instead took a trip from BOS to MSP. Which would be unethical.
Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Is "beyond Point Ticketing" Unethica

Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:38 pm



Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 33):
No, but that's not what's going on here, according to the contract of carriage. If I book a trip from BOS to SJC via MSP, I have not purchased the right to one seat on a flight from BOS to MSP, and then another seat from MSP to SJC. I have purchased the right to transport from BOS to SJC.

This is a good point. If NW chooses to reroute you through DTW, they've still met their obligation under the CoC (and, if you're playing the hidden city game, you're in a bad spot).
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Analog
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RE: Is "beyond Point Ticketing" Unethica

Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:00 am



Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 33):

Quoting Analog (Reply 26):
Really? Is using less than what you paid for unethical?

No, but that's not what's going on here, according to the contract of carriage. If I book a trip from BOS to SJC via MSP, I have not purchased the right to one seat on a flight from BOS to MSP, and then another seat from MSP to SJC. I have purchased the right to transport from BOS to SJC. If I were to stop in MSP, I am not using less than what I paid for, I am using something that (by the CoC) is completely different than what I paid for. Hence the "switching price tags" analogy. I paid for a trip from BOS to SJC but instead took a trip from BOS to MSP. Which would be unethical.

Okay, but what if you decide to get off in MSP while on the BOS-MSP flight? No planning, just on a whim. Is that still unethical?
 
Yellowstone
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RE: Is "beyond Point Ticketing" Unethica

Sat Feb 02, 2008 4:40 am



Quoting Analog (Reply 35):
Okay, but what if you decide to get off in MSP while on the BOS-MSP flight? No planning, just on a whim. Is that still unethical?

Not as much, I suppose, but it's still not great. Now, you have essentially bought one product, decided that you don't like it, "returned" it, and chosen another product instead. If you are willing to pay the difference between the two, that's just fine. Otherwise, it's still unethical, because you aren't paying the airline's price for the trip you took.
Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
 
Analog
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RE: Is "beyond Point Ticketing" Unethica

Sat Feb 02, 2008 8:32 am



Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 36):
Not as much, I suppose, but it's still not great. Now, you have essentially bought one product, decided that you don't like it, "returned" it, and chosen another product instead. If you are willing to pay the difference between the two, that's just fine. Otherwise, it's still unethical, because you aren't paying the airline's price for the trip you took.

By that logic, if you decide to travel to your point of origin (i.e. no travel), why shouldn't you have to pay the airline the change fee? After all, changing a $500 ticket to a $0.01 ticket means paying the full change fee. You are forcing the airline to load two meals that will not be eaten and have empty seats on two segments, as opposed to one if you got off at the connecting city. Not traveling at all is twice as unethical!  Yeah sure

Here's another hypothetical situation for the BOS-MSP-SJC trip:

If you decide to get of at the intermediate point (MSP) and, while you are on your way (BOS to MSP) to the intermediate point, the airline decides to cancel your second flight (MSP-SJC), is it then unethical to accept their offer of a trip home (MSP-BOS) the next day (after you've completed your business at MSP), or should you pay them the change fee, the fare difference, and for a one way MSP-BOS ticket?

The airlines do not allow consumers to negotiate the so-called "contracts", yet they can basically do what they want with you if they return your money. Why is it unethical to return the favor?
 
ATCtower
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RE: Is "beyond Point Ticketing" Unethica

Sun Feb 03, 2008 8:58 pm



Quoting Analog (Reply 37):
After all, changing a $500 ticket to a $0.01 ticket means paying the full change fee

Point very well taken but the way to look at this, is if the airline is selling all these $.01 seats, and charged you $500.00, some could argue this is price gouging. Granted the reality of the situation it is much more reasonable to expect a $500.00 fare as opposed to a $.01 fare. Either way its gonna be a bitch fest between the airlines and passengers.
my twocents 
By reading the above post you waive all rights to be offended. If you do not like what you read, forget it.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Is "beyond Point Ticketing" Unethica

Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:02 pm

Here's something for you guys to chew on: I want to fly from LGA to STL and my girlfriend lives in Chicago. I want to see her (the dumb things we do for love...), so I pay $100 MORE than the price of a non-stop for a 5 hour connection at ORD. My LGA-ORD flight cancels and AA refuses to accommodate me on the next LGA-ORD flight (even though I still would have a 4 hour connection), putting me on the non-stop again. That's acceptable under the CoC, but does AA have an ethical obligation to:
a) Refund me the $100 fare difference
b) Permit me to connect at ORD (note that, in my example, it's still a legal connection and there are seats available)?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
bond007
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RE: Is "beyond Point Ticketing" Unethica

Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:22 am



Quoting Analog (Reply 37):
The airlines do not allow consumers to negotiate the so-called "contracts", yet they can basically do what they want with you if they return your money. Why is it unethical to return the favor?

You can try and convince yourself that it's not unethical with many examples, but it's really quite simple, and I think you understand it .... just don't want to accept it.

Does the pricing make any sense? ... in most cases, not at all.
Have I done it? Sure many times.
Is it unethical to deliberately and knowingly get off at a connecting airport, to get a cheaper fare ... sure it is ... under all of the definitions of 'unethical' I can find.

Hey, call it something else ... 'wrong' perhaps, or maybe just 'cheating' eh?

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 39):
That's acceptable under the CoC, but does AA have an ethical obligation to:
a) Refund me the $100 fare difference
b) Permit me to connect at ORD (note that, in my example, it's still a legal connection and there are seats available)?

I would say they have an obligation to get you from A to B (origin and destination), according to their contract and policies. That's all. No ethics involved. I may be wrong.

Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Is "beyond Point Ticketing" Unethica

Tue Feb 05, 2008 3:59 pm



Quoting Bond007 (Reply 40):
I would say they have an obligation to get you from A to B (origin and destination), according to their contract and policies. That's all. No ethics involved. I may be wrong.

So it's ethical for them to pocket the money I paid for a service I didn't receive (the connection at ORD)?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
bond007
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RE: Is "beyond Point Ticketing" Unethica

Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:54 pm



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 41):
So it's ethical for them to pocket the money I paid for a service I didn't receive (the connection at ORD)?

Well, like I say, I may well be wrong, but as far as I see, the service you paid for was from A to C ... not A to B. It was your choice to pick the most expensive, non-direct route. It was also unfortunate that this happened to be the most expensive routing ... you didn't pay extra just because you went via ORD ... I'm sure there are many flights where this type of routing would in fact had been cheaper (hence the reason for this thread, right?).

Let's suppose it WAS much cheaper to fly your route instead of direct ... they cancelled the connection, and then flew you direct. By your thinking, it's OK for the airline to charge you the extra cost then, right? You probably won't agree ... I wouldn't.

Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
Analog
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RE: Is "beyond Point Ticketing" Unethica

Tue Feb 05, 2008 6:12 pm

Ignoring any a priori intent to defraud or game the system, is it unethical to decide not to use the connecting service after you've used the first half (say you're a really impulsive person). Or should one, in that case, walk up to the airline counter and hand them the appropriate wad of cash (change fee + fare difference)? I am differentiating this from the a priori planned case. Nobody seems to be able to provide an answer for that here, and nobody has argued that such a distinction is irrelevant or incorrect.

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 40):
I would say they have an obligation to get you from A to B (origin and destination), according to their contract and policies. That's all. No ethics involved. I may be wrong.

In my world if an act is not unethical, it is ethical. Ethics is complete. In other words, while being unethical is bad, being ethical is not necessarily good. Not all non-bad things are good, all non-unethical things are ethical.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Is "beyond Point Ticketing" Unethica

Tue Feb 05, 2008 6:43 pm



Quoting Bond007 (Reply 42):
Well, like I say, I may well be wrong, but as far as I see, the service you paid for was from A to C ... not A to B. It was your choice to pick the most expensive, non-direct route.

So why even give me the choice?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
bond007
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RE: Is "beyond Point Ticketing" Unethica

Tue Feb 05, 2008 6:58 pm



Quoting Analog (Reply 43):
Nobody seems to be able to provide an answer for that here, and nobody has argued that such a distinction is irrelevant or incorrect.

OK, I'll argue it ... it's no different.
You've breached the contract whether you decide before boarding or on the flight.

Quoting Analog (Reply 43):
Or should one, in that case, walk up to the airline counter and hand them the appropriate wad of cash (change fee + fare difference)?

Well, you 'should' ... of course nobody is ever going to do this.

Quoting Analog (Reply 43):
In my world if an act is not unethical, it is ethical.

OK, it's ethical then .... that was the agreement.

Quoting Analog (Reply 43):
while being unethical is bad, being ethical is not necessarily good.

It just depends on whose 'side' you are looking at it from, that's all. I'm sure the airline would have no problem saying what they do is ethical.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 44):
So why even give me the choice?

Do you think they are giving you the choice so you can meet up with friends?
That's a whole different discussion isn't it?
They're giving you a choice of routes because perhaps the volume of pax from A to C exceeds the capacity on the direct flights. Not all pax on your flight are going from A to C ... if they were I'm sure the airline would be running more direct flights if the plane is full. Connecting flights run via hubs all day every day.


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
Pope
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RE: Is "beyond Point Ticketing" Unethica

Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:30 pm

If the contract is between the passenger and the airline, then the easy way to get around this rule is to have your spouse, friend, sibling, etc. . . purchase the ticket for you. Breach the contract between the airline and you and the airline can't then turn around an charge the purchasers more because they weren't party to the contract (and therefore weren't bound by its terms).
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Is "beyond Point Ticketing" Unethica

Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:49 pm



Quoting Bond007 (Reply 45):
They're giving you a choice of routes because perhaps the volume of pax from A to C exceeds the capacity on the direct flights. Not all pax on your flight are going from A to C ... if they were I'm sure the airline would be running more direct flights if the plane is full. Connecting flights run via hubs all day every day.

If that's the case, shouldn't they charge me less to connect at ORD?

And in any event, it's not true in this case; AA carries 898 passengers on STL-NYC daily and offers 917 daily seats to LGA alone (in addition to 300 seats on EWR-STL).
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
bond007
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RE: Is "beyond Point Ticketing" Unethica

Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:49 pm



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 47):
If that's the case, shouldn't they charge me less to connect at ORD?

They'll charge you whatever they think the most competitive price is, taking into account all the crap they normally do ... availability, date of purchase, etc. etc.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 47):
And in any event, it's not true in this case; AA carries 898 passengers on STL-NYC daily and offers 917 daily seats to LGA alone (in addition to 300 seats on EWR-STL).

Well, whatever, they're giving you more options to get from A to C. They're not doing it so that some folks can spend time in Chicago. It's an easy way for an airline to perhaps fill seats that would otherwise go empty.

Quoting Pope (Reply 46):
Breach the contract between the airline and you and the airline can't then turn around an charge the purchasers more because they weren't party to the contract (and therefore weren't bound by its terms).

So they'll charge the passenger more!

There's no need for an 'easy way to get round this rule', because no airline AFAIK is doing this. The discussion is whether it's 'right' or 'wrong', not the fact that you're gonna 'get caught' !


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Is "beyond Point Ticketing" Unethica

Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:52 pm



Quoting Bond007 (Reply 48):

Well, whatever, they're giving you more options to get from A to C. They're not doing it so that some folks can spend time in Chicago. It's an easy way for an airline to perhaps fill seats that would otherwise go empty.

Why should their concept of value control rather than mine?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more

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