tommybp251b
Posts: 328
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LH Economy- There's "a" Better Way To Fly!

Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:41 pm

Hi Everybody!

In this thread I want to share my experience on my LH long haul-flight LH 779 from SIN to FRA. Firstly I want to point out that I don't want to bash LH. From what I read and hear LH has a very good reputation for its First and Business Class. I would like to share my experience on my flight on economy class with everybody on this page and would like to listen to experiences made by others.

I came back this morning from a 1 month trip to Sydney, Australia. My flights were the following:

1. SQ 25 FRA-SIN B744
2. SQ 221 SIN-SYD A380
3. SQ 222 SYD-SIN A380
4. LH 779 SIN-FRA B744 ( D-ABVE)

To make a long story short, I was deeply disappointed on what LH is offering on long haul Y.
The seats on the 747 were very old and worn out and some appeared to fall appart already. There was no PTV and the IFE was in my opinion also very old and did not offer a wide variety. I could chose between 30 radio channels, that's it. They played 2 movies and one documentary, which could be watch on the overhead TV's in two languages.
We only got a blanket, a pillow and a headset. There was no little bag with socks, no sleeping-cover ( You know what I mean- the thing for over the eyes- anyway what's the English word for it?)) and no toothbrush with toothpaste.

I definetly don't expect every airline to have such a amazing IFE-System with PTV and AVOD like SQ has on its A380 and B77W, but I thought LH would at least have something similar to BA, QF or to the one SQ has on its 744s.
Sorry to say but the LH IFE remembered me on the one LT had on its MD-11 in 1997 when I flew them to the US.

I also know that the IFE on the LH A333 and A346 is better according to airliners.net.

So why is LH abandoning the economy section on its flagship? Is it not worth to offer a good product to economy passengers? I know that business class is the money-maker, but why do other airlines offer a better product in economy them.

Right now I will try to avoid a LH 744 on my next long haul trip, because right now I think, that "There's A better way to fly".  Wink

Let the discussion begin.

Best Regards

Tom
Tom from Cologne
 
B747forever
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LH Economy- There's "a" Better Way To Fly!

Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:50 pm

And this is exactly why I dont fly LH anymore to LAX. (fly with BA now days)
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
haggis79
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LH Economy- There's "a" Better Way To Fly!

Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:04 pm

oh no, not again a LH-PTV thread... Sad

in a nutshell: it should be quite easy to inform oneself about the IFE offering on a particular airline before booking the flight... it is certainly true that LHs Y product leaves a lot to be desired even when not taking the IFE into account compared with other European legacy carriers (and even more so compared with Asian and Middle Eastern ones), but if you don't properly inform yourself before booking, the only one you have to blame is yourself. It's not like LH would claim on their homepage they had an state-of-the-art IFE in Y.... in fact, even with the new product on the 333 and 346 they have a degraded system in Y compared with C and are quite open about it. Management decision I guess.... LH targets mostly business customers who couldn't care less about the IFE system and those German tourist travellers who chose a German airline over anything else come what may....
300 310 319/20/21 332/3 343 AT4/7 143 B19 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 742/4 752/3 763/4 77E/W CR2/7/9 D95 E45/70 F50 F70 100 M11 M90
 
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CARST
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LH Economy- There's "a" Better Way To Fly!

Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:06 pm

I think the reason is the 744s will be phased out from 2010 onward - as soon as the 748i arrives.

LH is renovating the whole Airbus longhaul fleet, but they seem to see no need into investing into airplanes that will only remain in the fleet for two years.


Perhaps for someone expecting good IFE/AVOD it is not good to fly LHs 744s. Wait till 2010 or 2011 then you can fly them again.

You can still fly their renovated Airbus products and from 2010 the 748i. And by the way, not everyone needs such IFE/AVOD products; ever heard of books, musik and magazines?


Personally, as much as i would love to see LH to update their 744 fleet one again before being phased out, i think it shouldn't matter if a flight has AVOD or not. I would use it, too, but if there is none, i read or sleep...

We are in a changing world, most of the airlines worldwide are putting good IFE systems / AVOD into their longhaul planes, some of them do it faster, some slower, who cares? In five years there won't be threads like these...
 
FlySSC
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LH Economy- There's "a" Better Way To Fly!

Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:14 pm

It has become well known that LH has been living on its reputation in the past decade, especially concerning its service in Economy class.

The truth is that LH's Y product sucks ! Even my friends working as F/A and Purser for LH say it.
LH is overrated in many ways and they Y product is well below most other European carriers.
 
MSYtristar
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LH Economy- There's "a" Better Way To Fly!

Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:20 pm

The one time I flew LH in longhaul Y (FRA-DEN on 744) I thought the in flight service more than made up for the lack of good IFE. In fact, the experience I had on LH was at least as good as the experience I had on BA and AF, both of which offered PTV's on their respective aircraft. All that being said, it would be nice if LH showed the big Boeing's some more Y-class love until the 748's arrive.
 
Burkhard
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LH Economy- There's "a" Better Way To Fly!

Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:20 pm

SIN-FRA I wouldn't choose LH, too, even if I don't mind entertainment junk at all. If somebody would give me a.net for 16 hours, I even wouldn't need a blanket...
 
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robffm2
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LH Economy- There's "a" Better Way To Fly!

Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:24 pm

Flying is not only about IFE. As Tom mentioned he missed also the amenity bag other carriers provide. I've been to GRU with Lufthansa twice this year, one time from FRA, the other from MUC, and there were also no amenity bags on these flights. And of course no IFE on the B744 and the A343.
On earlier flights with TAM I got a bag with an eye-shade, toothbrush with toothpaste and a comb. On Iberia they only had some socks.
As with the IFE this is something to take into consideration when making a booking, but can be taken care of very easily on a passenger's own preferences.
The important aspects of flying are of course safety, timeliness, overall service and price. And I must say that on these criteria Lufthansa rates top. I was even thinking about writing them to thank the crew for an exceptional good service on the flight from GRU to MUC (LH505, 26-May).
Rob
 
ojas
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LH Economy- There's "a" Better Way To Fly!

Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:24 pm

The most important thing one fails to understand is that different customers have different requirements. The IFE or rather the whole inflight product maybe the decisive factor for many. But there are people who do not care much about the IFE.

Speaking from my dads perspective who makes frequent trips to the USA from DOH, prefer Lufthansa over any other carrier simply because LH has earned the reputation of being the most reliable airline in terms of its operations. We as aviation enthusiasts would like to enjoy every aspect of our flight, but I have known passengers on long haul flights who sleep for the entire 12-13 hours rather than bothering about the food/IFE et al. teh business passengers just want the plane to leave and arrive on time.

LH'sY product maybe mediocre to the best as reported by many, but yet it is the MOST popular airline out of India and almost India's defacto national carrier to the USA.

IMO a person regular on A.net should be well versed about the flight he is traveling and should know the offerings before hand.

SIN - FRA has LH,SQ serving and I'm sure SQ's Y maybe better than LH's Y. Else there are many options via the Middle east (EK/EY/QR) on which airlines have some really good IFE and overall a good Y product.
Great leaders don't tell you what to do ... they show you how it's done!
 
tommybp251b
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LH Economy- There's "a" Better Way To Fly!

Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:35 pm



Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 2):
but if you don't properly inform yourself before booking, the only one you have to blame is yourself.



Quoting Ojas (Reply 8):
IMO a person regular on A.net should be well versed about the flight he is traveling and should know the offerings before hand.

Hey Guys!

Calm down. I am not bashing LH. I booked myself on the flight in order to get to know their product. And now I just took a resumé. And I am not blaming myself. I just wanted to know why LH doesn't offer a good all in all product in J in comparison to other airlines.

Quoting Ojas (Reply 8):
Speaking from my dads perspective who makes frequent trips to the USA from DOH, prefer Lufthansa over any other carrier simply because LH has earned the reputation of being the most reliable airline in terms of its operations. We as aviation enthusiasts would like to enjoy every aspect of our flight, but I have known passengers on long haul flights who sleep for the entire 12-13 hours rather than bothering about the food/IFE et al. teh business passengers just want the plane to leave and arrive on time.

True for business and First, but in Economy it is quite harder to get decent sleep. And I also appreciated that the flight was on time.

Regards Tom
Tom from Cologne
 
LH498
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LH Economy- There's "a" Better Way To Fly!

Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:40 pm



Quoting CARST (Reply 3):
I think the reason is the 744s will be phased out from 2010 onward - as soon as the 748i arrives.

It has been posted in past threads that the 744 will not immediately be phased out once the 748i start to arrive. They will stay for quite a while, at least the newer ones; look at their youngest 744: D-ABTL is only 6 years old.
OTOH, they will get new Y-seats with PTVs together with the A343s.

As said before, their safety, reliability and very professional service compensate their lack of PTVs.
 
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seabosdca
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LH Economy- There's "a" Better Way To Fly!

Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:45 pm



Quoting LH498 (Reply 10):

As said before, their safety, reliability and very professional service compensate their lack of PTVs.

 checkmark 

LH is arguably the best-run airline in the world.

They are punctual, efficient, and extraordinarily safe. All of that matters much more to me than whether I get an eye cover or how many movies are on the IFE.
 
ojas
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LH Economy- There's "a" Better Way To Fly!

Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:53 pm



Quoting TommyBP251b (Reply 9):
IMO a person regular on A.net should be well versed about the flight he is traveling and should know the offerings before hand.

Hey Guys!

Calm down. I am not bashing LH. I booked myself on the flight in order to get to know their product. And now I just took a resumé. And I am not blaming myself. I just wanted to know why LH doesn't offer a good all in all product in J in comparison to other airlines.

Don't get me wrong it was just a point I made.

Quoting TommyBP251b (Reply 9):
but in Economy it is quite harder to get decent sleep. And I also appreciated that the flight was on time.

Exactly, for some that may be the most important factor that is all.
Great leaders don't tell you what to do ... they show you how it's done!
 
caspritz78
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LH Economy- There's "a" Better Way To Fly!

Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:54 pm

The LH Y product is absolutely fine. Clean planes, good service, free food and free drinks, even alcoholic ones, a pillow and a blanket. No weird extra charges for checking bags or other nonsense certain airlines came up with. I also really don't understand where to get idea from that there should be an amenity kid in economy. This said the LH economy product is not the top notch economy product but compared to many other airlines it is a good product.
 
CityofAthens
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LH Economy- There's "a" Better Way To Fly!

Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:58 pm



Quoting FlySSC (Reply 4):
It has become well known that LH has been living on its reputation in the past decade, especially concerning its service in Economy class.



Quoting FlySSC (Reply 4):
LH is overrated in many ways and they Y product is well below most other European carriers.

I would have said the same of one of their main competitors, BA  Wink
 
plairbus
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LH Economy- There's "a" Better Way To Fly!

Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:15 pm

There is one very important thing and this is reputation, worldwide even people that never fly LH before if you ask for a security and top profesional service, 90 % answer Lufthansa, and yes i feel safty with LH and for me this is the most important thing! I feel safe and I feel that I fly with a company that will take care of me so for me: There is no better way to fly!
 
PA101
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LH Economy- There's "a" Better Way To Fly!

Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:23 pm

There is no better way to fly? No, in fact, there are many ways:
AF, BA, OS, LX, not to speak of QR, SQ, or EK...

all in regards of amenities, comfort on boards AND friendliness (I'm not saying that LH FAs are generally unfriendly, but they are not the friendliest around either...).

Quoting Caspritz78 (Reply 13):
I also really don't understand where to get idea from that there should be an amenity kid in economy.

Because many competitors give one?
I always appreciate ear plugs, a sleeping mask and a toothbrush (since toiletries need to go into the checked baggage due to all these liquid restrictions...). And YES, I do base my carrier decision upon the availibilty of PTVs and AVOD, since it really helps spending many hours on board...
 
AA737-823
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LH Economy- There's "a" Better Way To Fly!

Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:38 pm



Quoting LH498 (Reply 10):
As said before, their safety, reliability and very professional service compensate their lack of PTVs.



Quoting SeaBosDca (Reply 11):
They are punctual, efficient, and extraordinarily safe.

You guys are acting like Lufthansa is the only safe airline in the world. We're not talking about 1980s Aeroflot here, gentlemen, we're talking about state of the art competitors.
KLM comes to mind- quite safe, and a wonderful economy product in my experience. No amenity kit, but BRILLIANT cabin crews, WONDERFUL IFE, and meals good enough to eat.

Quoting Caspritz78 (Reply 13):
I also really don't understand where to get idea from that there should be an amenity kid in economy.

He's already told you, if you'd open your mind a bit:

Quoting TommyBP251b (Thread starter):
other airlines offer a better product in economy

If other carriers, that are perfectly safe and reasonably punctual (you can't tell me LH doesn't ever delay a flight for MX, and if they do it's an unsafe practice) offer BETTER service, then this guy has a VERY LEGITIMATE QUESTION.

The question being, as near as I can tell:
WHY DOES LUFTHANSA Y SUCK, compared to competitors?
 
PA101
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LH Economy- There's "a" Better Way To Fly!

Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:47 pm



Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 17):
KLM comes to mind- quite safe, and a wonderful economy product in my experience. No amenity kit, but BRILLIANT cabin crews, WONDERFUL IFE, and meals good enough to eat.

However, in regards of seats and IFE, it's a question whether you'll be travelling on an A332 or a B777 (wheras the 772 with 9 abreast seems to be ways more comfortable than the 77W with 10 abreast) or a 744 or MD11.
 
FlySSC
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LH Economy- There's "a" Better Way To Fly!

Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:49 pm

Guys, some of you are mixing everything !

We are not talking about LH safety reliability here ! the subject is net even about IFE or no IFE !
It is just about LH level of service in Y. That's all.
And YES ! , compared to many of its European competitors, LH Y product is far behind.

Quoting Plairbus (Reply 15):
There is one very important thing and this is reputation, worldwide even people that never fly LH before if you ask for a security and top professional service, 90 % answer Lufthansa

Precisely ! LH lives on its good reputation.
Many people will say LH is super-wonderful even if they actually never flown them, those same people will say AF or IB or BA is crap ... even if they actually never flown them either !

Beside all this, LH is a great reliable and efficient airline ... who desperately needs to upgrade its Y product !
 
JoeCanuck
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LH Economy- There's "a" Better Way To Fly!

Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:57 pm

I will also chime in with my opinion. I have flown many trips from the middle east to Canada in LH Y. It compares with what I experienced with AC and BA...which is to say, not especially nice.

Perhaps BA has improved and I know AC has a much nicer product with their new planes but LH is being left behind. Their much touted Recaro seats on the 330/340's are very uncomfortable. AVOD is basically standard equipment on most airlines, if not now, then it's in the process.

I have no complaints about the service or the personnel.

FRA is a superior european hub but that may not be reason enough to fly substandard Y.

LH is making money now but competition is only getting more fierce. Eventually, the little things the others offer may come to haunt them.
What the...?
 
keesje
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LH Economy- There's "a" Better Way To Fly!

Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:58 pm



Quoting LH498 (Reply 10):
As said before, their safety, reliability and very professional service compensate their lack of PTVs.

That's what we are made to believe.

Its not better then AF, KLM, BA, SQ, CX, AA, JAL, ANA, EK also not in the perception of people from outside Germany (that want LH to be best & that really helps perception).

LH has a good grip on the home market (also on the local perception) & that allows them to be savy in economy.

 Wink
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
tommybp251b
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RE: LH Economy- There's "a" Better Way T

Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:51 pm



Quoting PA101 (Reply 16):
And YES, I do base my carrier decision upon the availibilty of PTVs and AVOD, since it really helps spending many hours on board..



Quoting FlySSC (Reply 19):
We are not talking about LH safety reliability here ! the subject is net even about IFE or no IFE !
It is just about LH level of service in Y. That's all.

You got it! That's all I wanted to outline.

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 19):
And YES ! , compared to many of its European competitors, LH Y product is far behind.

Thank you guys for understanding what was really behind starting this threat. Furthermore Thank you for threating me respectful and welcome on my respected user list.

Best Regards.

Tom
Tom from Cologne
 
Viscount724
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RE: LH Economy- There's "a" Better Way T

Wed Aug 06, 2008 2:09 am



Quoting Robffm2 (Reply 7):
The important aspects of flying are of course safety, timeliness, overall service and price. And I must say that on these criteria Lufthansa rates top.

Totally agree. I consider those things much more important than IFE. I doubt that even 1% of Y class passengers chooses an airline based on their IFE system.

Quoting Ojas (Reply 8):
SIN - FRA has LH,SQ serving and I'm sure SQ's Y maybe better than LH's Y.

There have been a few recent threads referring to shabby SQ 744s with seats not working and torn carpets etc. While every airline has occasional problems with such things, I have always found LH aircraft, even the older ones, to be clean and in excellent condition. Their cabin crews are also among the best-trained and most professional I have encountered.

Quoting Ojas (Reply 8):
Else there are many options via the Middle east (EK/EY/QR) on which airlines have some really good IFE and overall a good Y product.



Quoting PA101 (Reply 16):
There is no better way to fly? No, in fact, there are many ways:
AF, BA, OS, LX, not to speak of QR, SQ, or EK...

Since this thread involves Y class, have you flown longhaul on EK 777s with their 10-abreast seating? I would take a LH 744 any day over a cramped 10-abreast 777. EK's service is also overrated and inconsistent in my opinion. Even their premium class products vary widely from one aircraft type to another (and on different models of the same basic type).

LH obviously has enough satisfied customers or they wouldn't be one of the world's most profitable airlines.
 
ACDC8
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RE: LH Economy- There's "a" Better Way T

Wed Aug 06, 2008 5:04 am

For what its worth, I enjoy LH's long haul economy product. I don't need PTVs, I am perfectly contempt looking out the window and catching up on some reading. The service is more than adequate, the food is fine and they fly me where I need to go via one of Europe's best hubs.

A long time KLM/NWA frequent flyer, I've switched over to LH and AC for my Trans-Atlantic hops simply because I find both AC and LH offer me more flexibility. Mind you, NWA still has one of the best FFP in the sky (unless thats going to change with the DL deal).

The best thing I can say about LH is that they have never left me out in the cold. I've had to get rebooked 4 times in recent years (twice on one trip) due to weather and strike action in Germany and they did an amazing job getting me where I needed to go as quickly as possible.
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
zkeoj
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RE: LH Economy- There's "a" Better Way T

Thu Aug 07, 2008 7:12 am

Quoting PA101 (Reply 16):
since toiletries need to go into the checked baggage due to all these liquid restrictions...

the items you mentioned are not restricted at all!

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 19):
Precisely ! LH lives on its good reputation.

oh, really? I wonder where that reputation comes from? I guess from poor service and a bad Y-product?

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 23):
I have always found LH aircraft, even the older ones, to be clean and in excellent condition. Their cabin crews are also among the best-trained and most professional I have encountered.

Couldn't agree more. I have never had a problem with the service on LH. I love the clean and fresh cabin when I board an LH plane.
Yes, it would be nice if they had AVOD, but I can live without it. And just because there is one, it doesn't mean it works. In the last two years I had flights on QF, SQ and OZ with PTVs that didn't work. QF even managed to have "about 30 head sets' on the B744 and suggested sharing headsets during the flight!!!

Personally, I don't care about an amenity kit. If I need eye-shades, I bring them. Ditto with toothbrush. And do you really need the cheap socks that go in the bin right after the flight anyway?

Just - as with most replies above - personal opinion...

Happy flying!
micha

[Edited 2008-08-07 00:32:09]
 
PA101
Posts: 312
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RE: LH Economy- There's "a" Better Way T

Thu Aug 07, 2008 9:31 am



Quoting ZKEOJ (Reply 25):
since toiletries need to go into the checked baggage due to all these liquid restrictions...

the items you mentioned are not restricted at all!

Maybe not the single items - but the overall content of such a bag (including nail-clippers/scissors, the contacts fluid, usually more than 100 ml, the shaving cream...) - so after all, it's just easier to put that whole friggin' bag in your checked luggage, not carry several small and clear bags in your hand luggage (and put 'em out at security) and simply hope for a tooth brush onboard. Indeed, I don't need the socks - but love the earplugs, eye-shades, tooth-brush or simply mints when I need them... YES, I could buy 'em all before, pack 'em and have 'em out at security - but we are talking conveniance, right? So it's just a small, but it is a difference - and those differences are at least important to me when it comes to choices!
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: LH Economy- There's "a" Better Way T

Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:50 pm



Quoting SeaBosDca (Reply 11):
ey are punctual, efficient, and extraordinarily safe. All of that matters much more



Quoting Ojas (Reply 12):
Exactly, for some that may be the most important factor that is all.



Quoting Caspritz78 (Reply 13):
The LH Y product is absolutely fine.

Perhaps, but I think what this thread, and a plethora of other threads including those regaring LH's Y product, shows is that different customers have different needs and expectations which are either met or not met.

Further, I would posit that there are punctual, efficient, safe and fine airlines that also provide personal televisions in Economy Class.

I agree with the above poster with the fact that a person with a computer can easily inform oneselves quite quickly as to what product to expect on board. This should be done before purchase.
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
Qantasistheway
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RE: LH Economy- There's "a" Better Way T

Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:57 pm

A lot of people mention the great service on LH, and I am German and I do like them on short hops, however from 2007 we had a bad experience that put the whole family off. We were flying from HAM to ADL on home leave and my brother and I in J and my parents in F. Flight to FRA was fine. We were at the F lounge at FRA which is very nice however stayed to long, as nobody informed us, even though we had dealt with the lounge agent personally. Long story short, we arrived at the gate and as F passengers were given a lecture by an old prude who basically threatened us that they would offload our bags and such and that we shouldnt do this ever again. We came to the conclusion that we would not fly LH again, and we wont SQ, QF or BA, but NWA, NIW WIEDER LUFTHANSA (Never Again Lufthansa). Their J offering isn't that good either. SIN to FRA my IFE did not work untill we touched down in FRA. What a joke, and I am still a Frequent Travller for Miles and More.
 
SDLSimme
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RE: LH Economy- There's "a" Better Way T

Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:27 pm

I flew LH this winter in Y, ARN-FRA-ORD-FRA-ARN. I have previously flown to ORD with BA and KL, and found LH's product to be good. There was no amenity kit, like the one I got on BA, but I can live without it. What I expect from a flight in Y is to get to my destination on time, be treated with respect from the FA's (treating them with respect and a smile usually takes care of this), and to get something to eat and drink on a longer flight. If there is some form of entertainment, that's a plus but I always have my iPod and usually a book with me, so it's not a big deal. Looking at these demands, LH did a good job. The seats were comfortable, and the legroom on par with other carriers.

I think people are bashing LH a little bit too much. In all honesty, apart from the IFE, how much does LH differ from say BA? You get pretty much the same legroom, free food and free booze, and the aircraft are generally in good shape. The thing that makes me rather fly LH is that FRA was much less of a hassle to connect in compared to LHR (haven't tried T5 yet though), and LH's planes were the cleanest I've ever been on.
A319-A321, A332-A333, RJ85, B733-B738, B743-B744, B752, B762-B764, B772-B773, CRJ200-CRJ700, Dash 8 Q300-Q400, ERJ 145,
 
DABZF
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RE: LH Economy- There's "a" Better Way T

Wed Aug 20, 2008 7:04 am

I love it how people blame the airline when they they are late or what ever... it's never their own fault... oh no... it's always that the airline didn't tell them that their flight was boarding or it was the airlines fault that they didn't leave home 30 min to to be on their flight on due time...  Angry

I can give you a long list of other airlines too where the IFE did not work on particular seat - this happens to all.

When it comes to the interior of the LH744's I have to say that other airlines that people speak so highly about aren't that much better... you find scrubby seats etc almost every airline.

Anyways... vote with your feet and fly with your SQ's and BA's instead - nobody is forcing you to fly LH.
I like driving backwards in the fog cause it doesn't remind me of anything - Chris Cornell

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