joeycapps
Posts: 68
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:24 am

Flying Directly From The USA To Beirut..

Sun Sep 28, 2008 6:21 am

I'm looking up fares as I have a relative that lives in Lebanon... my only possible way to get to BEY is take Virgin Atlantic JFK-London, then transfer to MEA in London to BEY.

I'm just curious as to why I can't seem to find a flight to BEY from America? Is it just me looking in the wrong place, something in the legal world, what?

PS: It doesnt necessarily have to be NONSTOP, but at least something where the transfer will go somewhat better for me? Thanks in advanced.
 
nqyguy
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RE: Flying Directly From The USA To Beirut..

Sun Sep 28, 2008 8:49 am

Well. You can buy a through fare on BA.com from JFK into LHR & then onwards to BEY with British Midland-BMI. You could also fly into CDG etc..

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...s/aviation_polls/read.main/125056/
 
castroprauxel
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RE: Flying Directly From The USA To Beirut..

Sun Sep 28, 2008 9:08 am

no direct flights NYC-BEY, but why not fly LH via FRA or RJ via AMM? always better with one carrier all the way.
 
airxliban
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RE: Flying Directly From The USA To Beirut..

Sun Sep 28, 2008 9:52 am

No nonstop and no direct flights between the US and Lebanon anymore, unfortunately. In fact I don't think there were ever nonstop flights, though MEA did have a direct flight through ORY using their lovely new 747-200s at the time (1983-1985 or so). If you're in NY, some of the popular ways of reaching BEY include anything through LHR or CDG and Delta through Rome or Istanbul. Avoid the FRA-BEY flight on MEA though. Definitely avoid RJ as well.
PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
 
castroprauxel
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RE: Flying Directly From The USA To Beirut..

Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:41 am



Quoting Airxliban (Reply 3):
Definitely avoid RJ as well

Why not RJ? they're good and reliable enough. connection in AMM is optimal and their JFK-BEY fare is great.
 
henkybaby
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RE: Flying Directly From The USA To Beirut..

Sun Sep 28, 2008 11:49 am

I have heard that the CIA has direct flights. Very private too. Mostly one-way though.
Wherever you go, there you are!
 
joeycapps
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RE: Flying Directly From The USA To Beirut..

Sun Sep 28, 2008 5:47 pm

Thanks for your replies everyone!
I think I am going with NQYGuy's suggestion of BA, since I have yet to have a bad experience with BA.

It bugs me a bit that theres no direct flight; Beirut is such a beautiful place, and I know a LOT of Lebanese people on the East coast that could use a direct flight. Oh well!

I just wonder why there hasn't been a direct flight? Is for the fact that the route would have low numbers, or something more in terms of the political climate?
 
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RJAF
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RE: Flying Directly From The USA To Beirut..

Sun Sep 28, 2008 8:30 pm



Quoting CastropRauxel (Reply 4):
Why not RJ? they're good and reliable enough. connection in AMM is optimal and their JFK-BEY fare is great

Ditto

RJ is doing great and unlike previous years, prefer to fly them them over European carriers. They've come a long way, besides, you have three dailies to BEY choose from.
Chance favors the prepared mind
 
ajd1992
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RE: Flying Directly From The USA To Beirut..

Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:21 pm



Quoting Henkybaby (Reply 5):
I have heard that the CIA has direct flights. Very private too. Mostly one-way though.

 bigthumbsup   bigthumbsup   rotfl   rotfl 

LOL.

It really depends if you want to stick to a certain alliance or not, or the same airline or not.
 
LAXintl
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RE: Flying Directly From The USA To Beirut..

Mon Sep 29, 2008 6:34 am



Quoting JOEYCAPPS (Reply 6):
or something more in terms of the political climate?

Very much so.

First there was a total 10-year travel ban on Americans to Lebanon which was lifted in 1997, however remaining parts of the Presidential order still bars air service between the countries remainied in place till 2007. The US Dept of State however continues to urge Americans avoid all travel to Lebanon.

Additionally there is a further 2007 Presidential order that amongst other things restricts entry into the United States of Lebanese and Syrians as, as immigrants or nonimmigrant's.

Lastly, the Lebanese civil aviation authorities have repeatedly refused inspections and are believed not to be fully ICAO compliant. In addition there remains a concern and strong suspicion that segments of the Lebanese government agencies including security apparatus operates at the behest of individuals including Hezbollah - a UN listed terrorist organization.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
PanAm747
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RE: Flying Directly From The USA To Beirut..

Mon Sep 29, 2008 7:56 pm

There is no such thing as a "direct" flight USA-Lebanon. A direct flight would be one keeping the same flight number and airplane, merely making a stopover in a third country.

You can, however, take a one-stop flight, changing planes in one of several European locations, such as AMS, LHR, FRA, and CDG. Air France has the largest number of seats available, if I recall right - two 777's CDG-BEY?

The U.S. does not trust Lebanese security, which is why MEA is not allowed to operate to the U.S. Other airlines in the region, however, will be more than happy to connect you.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
KU747
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RE: Flying Directly From The USA To Beirut..

Tue Sep 30, 2008 11:19 am

BA, AF, LH from the States and you can connect with same airline you arrived in or get ME to BEY. shouldn't be any problem. done that with BA many times.
707,727,73all,741,742,743,744,752,753,762,763,77all,300,310,319,320,321,332,333,343,346, L10,L15,DC10,MD11,SSC,VC10
 
gsosbee
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RE: Flying Directly From The USA To Beirut..

Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:35 pm



Quoting Henkybaby (Reply 5):
I have heard that the CIA has direct flights. Very private too. Mostly one-way though.

With a stop in Cuba!
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Flying Directly From The USA To Beirut..

Tue Sep 30, 2008 3:17 pm

Your quickest way is via AF and catch the 8.30AM flight to BEY from CDG.Transit time is about 60-90 minutes.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
soups
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RE: Flying Directly From The USA To Beirut..

Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:00 pm

If you fancy something exotic you can always take AT.
Other possible routes
OA via ATH
TK via IST
MS via CAI
SU via SVO
SV via RUH
AZ via FCO
There are over 30 possibilities.
Next destinations, Suarabaya, beirut, paris, Accra
 
joeycapps
Posts: 68
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:24 am

RE: Flying Directly From The USA To Beirut..

Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:06 pm



Quoting Soups (Reply 14):
If you fancy something exotic you can always take AT.
Other possible routes
OA via ATH
TK via IST
MS via CAI
SU via SVO
SV via RUH
AZ via FCO
There are over 30 possibilities.

Thanks for opening up my mind! I am a frequent AZ flyer, but with the current climate in their foreseeable future, I am a bit iffy on buying my tickets for such a trip this far away from the time I'm leaving.

I heard that AT is a good carrier, so is Royal Jordanian... I might give them a try.

I appreciate all of the replies
 
soups
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RE: Flying Directly From The USA To Beirut..

Fri Oct 03, 2008 5:09 pm

I just booked a last minute on AZ business seat ACC-FCO-BEY quite cheap.
Just take out travel insurance and fly AZ you will be fine. Also if taking AZ book with a c/c as if anything goes wrong you are most likely to get your money back rather than paying cash or debit card
Next destinations, Suarabaya, beirut, paris, Accra
 
BA
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RE: Flying Directly From The USA To Beirut..

Tue Oct 07, 2008 11:06 pm



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 9):
The US Dept of State however continues to urge Americans avoid all travel to Lebanon.

They don't seem to be having much of an effect because there is a lot of traffic between the US and Lebanon, especially during the summer.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 9):
Additionally there is a further 2007 Presidential order that amongst other things restricts entry into the United States of Lebanese and Syrians as, as immigrants or nonimmigrant's.

There is no such presidential order. The US has placed sanctions on Syria, but this has no effect on Lebanon and doesn't restrict the movement of people (with the exception of specific politicians, mainly Syrian).

Lebanese and Syrians can travel to the US provided they apply for and get a visa just like any nationality that does not participate in the Visa Waiver Program (VWP) and requires a visa to travel to the US.

Several of my Lebanese relatives have applied for US visas and got them no problem. My uncle has a 5-year multi-entry visa and has come twice to visit his son and daughter.

As long as you have a clean record, there isn't any reason to deny you a visa.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 9):
Lastly, the Lebanese civil aviation authorities have repeatedly refused inspections and are believed not to be fully ICAO compliant.

This is entirely false.

Never have Lebanese civil aviation authorities refused inspections by the ICAO. BEY just like every airport in the region, sees regular ICAO audits.

An audit conducted a few years ago found security at BEY to be among the best in the region.

Here is the article:


Jalal Haidar, president of Aviation Security for ICAO said: "Rafik Hariri International Airport is one of the best airports in the world in terms of its design. There is also evidence that its security standards are among the best regionally and internationally."

He added that the security and administration teams are "highly competent and have great experience."

Haidar said that ICAO had recently conducted a security evaluation at the airport, and the results were encouraging.

Shawq added: "The results and recommendations of the conference will positively reflect on the status of our airports and countries here in the Arab world, and the conference organizers believe that Lebanon has taken an important step in ensuring safe air travel."

He also noted that Lebanon's airport "will undoubtedly benefit from this conference because there will be a unified network of information between the Arab countries."

Next week, an ICAO team will arrive in Beirut to do a follow-up on Lebanon's compliance with international safety standards.


http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article....n_id=1&categ_id=3&article_id=22150

The only ICAO compliance issue BEY had was some illegal buildings near BEY's primary runway that were partially blocking the air traffic control tower's view of the runway. This has since been rectified with the demolition of the illegal buildings.

[Edited 2008-10-07 16:39:42]
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
LAXintl
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RE: Flying Directly From The USA To Beirut..

Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:42 am



Quoting BA (Reply 17):
They don't seem to be having much of an effect

People are free to do as they wish, however the United States discourages against travel to Lebanon by its citizens as the country is dangerous/unstable.

Quoting BA (Reply 17):
There is no such presidential order.

Here it is. Issued August 2007.
www.ustreas.gov/offices/enforcement/ofac/legal/eo/13441.pdf

Amongst many things this order does such as freezing assets of a group of principles it also restrict access to the United States of Lebanese and Syrians that have US government deems to have political or business ties to the undermining the sovereignty of Lebanon or its democratic processes and institutions.

As part of the enforcement of this Presidential Order, the State Department is vigorously denying access to the United States of both immigrants or nonimmigrant's and their families the department feels are covered by the order.

For an idea in 2007 only 17,489 US visa's were issued in Lebanon with a high 26.9% denial rate.

Quoting BA (Reply 17):
This is entirely false.

Lebanese CAA has not passed (more specifically refuses inspection) of the International Aviation Safety Assessments (IASA) which reviews counties adherence to international standards and recommended practices for aircraft operations and maintenance established by the United Nation's technical agency for aviation, ICAO.
http://www.faa.gov/safety/programs_initiatives/oversight/iasa/
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
BA
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RE: Flying Directly From The USA To Beirut..

Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:42 pm



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 18):
People are free to do as they wish, however the United States discourages against travel to Lebanon by its citizens as the country is dangerous/unstable.

I am well aware of US state department travel warnings and most American travelers I know of take them for a grain of salt. Either way, it doesn't matter, like you said, people do as they wish.

It's a free country.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 18):
Here it is. Issued August 2007.
www.ustreas.gov/offices/enforcement/ofac/legal/eo/13441.pdf

Amongst many things this order does such as freezing assets of a group of principles it also restrict access to the United States of Lebanese and Syrians that have US government deems to have political or business ties to the undermining the sovereignty of Lebanon or its democratic processes and institutions.

As I pointed out in my response, this is a block on specific individuals and not a ban on Lebanese and Syrian citizens as you mentioned.

Let me specifically quote from the PDF you posted:

I, GEORGE W. BUSH, President of the United States of America, determine
that the actions of certain persons to undermine Lebanon’s legitimate and
democratically elected government or democratic institutions, to contribute
to the deliberate breakdown in the rule of law in Lebanon, including through
politically motivated violence and intimidation, to reassert Syrian control
or contribute to Syrian interference in Lebanon, or to infringe upon or
undermine Lebanese sovereignty contribute to political and economic instability
in that country and the region and constitute an unusual and extraordinary
threat to the national security and foreign policy of the United
States, and I hereby declare a national emergency to deal with that threat.


This is specifically a political action aimed at specific individuals, not a general restriction on Lebanese and Syrians.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 18):
Lebanese CAA has not passed (more specifically refuses inspection) of the International Aviation Safety Assessments (IASA) which reviews counties adherence to international standards and recommended practices for aircraft operations and maintenance established by the United Nation's technical agency for aviation, ICAO.
http://www.faa.gov/safety/programs_i...iasa/

We're talking about the ICAO, not the FAA. IASA is an assessment conducted by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA). The FAA has never requested an assessment of Lebanon's civil aviation authority. Nor is there a reason for them to until moves are made to reestablish flights between the two countries.

Let's stick to the original issue, you claimed that Lebanon has refused ICAO inspections and has not passed ICAO standards and I tell you again that this is entirely false.

There wouldn't be a single EU country that would allow flights to Lebanon if Lebanon did not pass ICAO standards or denied ICAO inspections.


Chaouk conceded the ICAO presence had compensated for the Lebanese manpower shortfall so that aircraft safety and the inspection process were no longer being jeopardized. Meanwhile, Chaouk stressed that no one should doubt his department's commitment to air safety.

"We prevent unsatisfactory aircraft from even flying over Lebanon," he noted. "We are known to be the toughest in the Middle East. We even have a list of aircraft [Tupolev and Antonov] that we don't allow to land here anymore. We inspected so many of them in the past and they all failed. Many European countries still let these aircraft land." As part of the Lebanese civil aviation restructuring program, Chaouk will soon publish a blacklist (see box) of countries and airlines that are banned from flying to Lebanon, and claims that with the help of the ICAO staff currently in Lebanon the DGCA has checked "almost every" aircraft using Beirut Airport. "We may be seen as extreme. But this is the only way to clean up the whole market," he declared.

In an indication of the stringency of DGCA supervision, he said, over the last two years the DGCA has granted AOCs to a total of only five out of 25 Lebanese charter applicants - MenaJet, Flying Carpet, ASAS, Executive Aircraft Services and Berytos airlines. He said another five charter airlines were currently applying for AOCs. "We inspect the charter aircraft currently operating," he went on. "We are continually monitoring. Whenever there is any problem, we immediately stop the aircraft or airline from operating." And what the DGCA giveth, it also taketh away. Chaouk said that as many as 12 Lebanese AOCs had been suspended over the last two years - again an indication of how serious his department is about ensuring aircraft airworthiness. About half have since been reinstated.

The DCGA has also withdrawn over the last two years, more than 10 AOCs belonging to foreign companies. None has been reinstated. Some of those banned, such as Egypt's Lotus Air, have since had accidents.

Chaouk's efforts appear to be paying off: "Beirut Airport has been audited by the ICAO and by European institutions. I have been told by Great Britain that they have audited a lot of countries in the Middle East and Beirut scores the highest grades in safety and security." He has also won praise from Lebanese air industry insiders.


https://www.zawya.com/story.cfm/sidZAWYA20051010091416/Are%20We%20Safe
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
Viscount724
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RE: Flying Directly From The USA To Beirut..

Wed Oct 08, 2008 6:13 pm



Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 10):
The U.S. does not trust Lebanese security, which is why MEA is not allowed to operate to the U.S. Other airlines in the region, however, will be more than happy to connect you.

AC was on the verge of launching nonstop YUL-BEY service in 2003 when the Canadian Government withdrew permission for the route for security-related reasons just a few days before the inaugural flight. There were rumors that the U.S. government had some influence in that decision.
http://www.allbusiness.com/operation...shipping-air-freight/559912-1.html
 
LAXintl
Posts: 20183
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: Flying Directly From The USA To Beirut..

Wed Oct 08, 2008 8:35 pm



Quoting BA (Reply 19):
This is specifically a political action aimed at specific individuals, not a general restriction on Lebanese and Syrians.

The restrictions affect a wide gamut of Syrian and Lebanese citizens including families and children of those that have ties to politics, business, press and affiliated with the many pseudo political/armed groups in the nation.

Quoting BA (Reply 19):
We're talking about the ICAO, not the FAA. IASA is an assessment conducted by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA). The FAA has never requested an assessment of Lebanon's civil aviation authority. Nor is there a reason for them to until moves are made to reestablish flights between the two countries.

Let's stick to the original issue, you claimed that Lebanon has refused ICAO inspections and has not passed ICAO standards and I tell you again that this is entirely false.

I'm sticking to the point. Lebanon has refused submittal to the IASA audit and by default has been found to be deficient in the area of oversight and security as defined by ICAO.

You can jump up and down all you want, however until Lebanon first submits to the audit (and passes it), the the US will continue to publish that Lebanon CAA fails to meet ICAO standards. Many countries including Canada use and recognize the IASA audit as a standard for their own governments.


While I appreciate you trying to put a nice spin on Lebanon, things are far from copasetic, and there are serious structural aviation oversight and security issues in the country.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
BA
Posts: 10133
Joined: Fri May 19, 2000 11:06 am

RE: Flying Directly From The USA To Beirut..

Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:01 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 21):

I'm sticking to the point. Lebanon has refused submittal to the IASA audit and by default has been found to be deficient in the area of oversight and security as defined by ICAO.

Again, the FAA has never approached Lebanon with a request to conduct an IASA audit, therefore it is not possible for Lebanon to have refused it.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 21):
You can jump up and down all you want, however until Lebanon first submits to the audit (and passes it), the the US will continue to publish that Lebanon CAA fails to meet ICAO standards. Many countries including Canada use and recognize the IASA audit as a standard for their own governments.

ICAO standards are set by the ICAO, that's why they're called ICAO standards. If the ICAO themselves have stated that Lebanon meets its standards based on its own audits, then Lebanon is ICAO compliant. It's not up to the US to decide whether Lebanon is ICAO compliant or not.

National civil aviation authorities are free to conduct their own audits on other nation's aviation safety and security standards as a precondition to allowing air service (which many nations require, not just the US), but this is entirely independent of an audit conducted by the ICAO which is a branch of the United Nations.

Besides the ICAO, numerous European nations have conducted their own audits on Lebanon including the United Kingdom's Civil Aviation Authority.

If the time comes one day to establish flights between the US and Lebanon again, the FAA will conduct its IASA audit. There is no reason for Lebanon to refuse a US audit when the ICAO and numerous European nations have conducted their own audits, especially since Lebanon currently has a pro-Western government.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 21):
While I appreciate you trying to put a nice spin on Lebanon, things are far from copasetic, and there are serious structural aviation oversight and security issues in the country.

With all do respect, I've refuted your claim that Lebanon is not ICAO compliant and has insufficient aviation safety and security standards with sources that say the complete contrary.

You haven't provided a single source to back your claim except provide a link to the FAA's IASA web page (which makes no mention of Lebanon whatsoever), conveniently deviating from your original claim, which was specifically about ICAO standards.

You have conveniently ignored the sources I've provided discrediting your claim about Lebanon not being ICAO complaint and having "serious aviation oversight and security issues." I'm certainly not the one putting a spin on things...

I can see there is no use taking this discussion any further as no matter how many sources I provide refuting your claim, you will continue to argue it. If I presented you a signed letter from the ICAO's secretary general, you would continue to argue it.

I guess the US must be the only country in the world to enforce ICAO standards and that the ICAO themselves are not following their own standards... (sarcasm)

You will be shocked to know that starting this January, MEA will start registering its aircraft in Lebanon instead of France and will carry a Lebanese AOC instead of a French AOC. I'm sure you know what this means.

Have a nice day.

[Edited 2008-10-08 19:21:48]
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
LAXintl
Posts: 20183
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: Flying Directly From The USA To Beirut..

Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:48 am



Quoting BA (Reply 22):
Again, the FAA has never approached Lebanon with a request to conduct an IASA audit, therefore it is not possible for Lebanon to have refused it.

The US on two ocassions since 1999 has requested IASA reviews which were declined.

If you look at the IASA page it list countries which have been reviewed, and either found compliant or not. As you can see Lebanon is not listed period.
http://www.faa.gov/safety/programs_i...es/oversight/iasa/media/iasaws.xls
Having direct US airservice is not a pre-requisite for IASA review. As you can see the list of nations many do not have any US air service (Bangladesh, Brunei, Croatia, Congo, etc..)

Additionaly per the US State Department:
the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) has not assessed Lebanon’s Civil Aviation Authority for compliance with International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) aviation safety standards.

Quoting BA (Reply 22):
I guess the US must be the only country in the world to enforce ICAO standards and that the ICAO themselves are not following their own standards... (sarcasm)

ICAO has ZERO enforcement capacity. It merely recommends standards.

Review and enforcement of ICAO standards is up to individual member states. -- FAA IASA audits are just that.
The IASA findings are widely accepted by many nations as being their own, as most countries do not have the resources to provide such global audit capacity of basic ICAO standards as the US does.

Quoting BA (Reply 22):
bombastic claim

I'm not making any bombasitc claims.

I'm simply telling you published facts from the US government which you seem not to want to accept for some reason. Either way its not chaning the facts.

Quoting BA (Reply 22):
Have a nice day.

You as well.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
BA
Posts: 10133
Joined: Fri May 19, 2000 11:06 am

RE: Flying Directly From The USA To Beirut..

Thu Oct 09, 2008 3:37 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 23):
The US on two ocassions since 1999 has requested IASA reviews which were declined.

Can you provide proof to this? I would concede to your claim that Lebanon denied IASA audits, but simply because Lebanon has not had an IASA audit does not mean Lebanon does not meet ICAO standards.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 23):
If you look at the IASA page it list countries which have been reviewed, and either found compliant or not. As you can see Lebanon is not listed period.
http://www.faa.gov/safety/programs_i...es/oversight/iasa/media/iasaws.xls
Having direct US airservice is not a pre-requisite for IASA review. As you can see the list of nations many do not have any US air service (Bangladesh, Brunei, Croatia, Congo, etc..)

I am well aware that no IASA audit has been conducted on Lebanon, I never said otherwise.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 23):
Additionaly per the US State Department:
the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) has not assessed Lebanon’s Civil Aviation Authority for compliance with International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) aviation safety standards.

You left out the first half:

AVIATION SAFETY OVERSIGHT: As there is no direct commercial air service to the United States by carriers registered in Lebanon, the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) has not assessed Lebanon’s Civil Aviation Authority for compliance with International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) aviation safety standards. For more information, travelers may visit the FAA’s web site at http://www.faa.gov/safety/programs_initiatives/oversight/iasa.

It's very unspecific and vague...

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 23):
ICAO has ZERO enforcement capacity. It merely recommends standards.

You misunderstood my point. The point is the ICAO themselves have sent inspectors to Lebanon and audited the CAA and safety and security procedures and found them to be compliant. The issue is not enforcement here.

If the ICAO had the capability of enforcing its standards, every United Nations member would be ICAO compliant. Obviously that's not the case.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 23):
Review and enforcement of ICAO standards is up to individual member states. -- FAA IASA audits are just that.
The IASA findings are widely accepted by many nations as being their own, as most countries do not have the resources to provide such global audit capacity of basic ICAO standards as the US does.

Again, well aware and understood. But this is not the original point you brought up in your first response to this thread:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 9):
Lastly, the Lebanese civil aviation authorities have repeatedly refused inspections and are believed not to be fully ICAO compliant.

You brought the US and FAA into this discussion later.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 23):
I'm not making any bombasitc claims.

I'm simply telling you published facts from the US government which you seem not to want to accept for some reason. Either way its not chaning the facts.

Again, I never said the US has audited Lebanon's CAA.

I am arguing against your claim that aviation safety and security standards in Lebanon are insufficient and that they are not ICAO compliant. I've provided sources that say the contrary.

To claim that aviation safety and security standards in Lebanon are insufficient simply because the US has not conducted its own personal audit is ridiculous and extremely arrogant.

This is my problem with your statement. It completely discredits the ICAO and the European regulatory agencies that conducted their own audits on Lebanon.

I'm well aware that Lebanon first needs to have an IASA audit before it can be approved to have flights to the US, I acknowledged this in my last response.

[Edited 2008-10-08 20:40:27]
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
LAXintl
Posts: 20183
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: Flying Directly From The USA To Beirut..

Thu Oct 09, 2008 4:54 am



Quoting BA (Reply 24):
Can you provide proof to this?

I know this well as I was involved, and the issue became a big problem when the US wanted to send humanitarian flights to Lebanon late summer 2006.
Besides the Reagan Presidential order barring US air carriers, the lack of any security/safety certification was major road block for any US carrier contacted.

Flights were finally operated mostly using foreign carriers, but a few US flights did operate under military designation, with insurance coverage provided by the US government.

Quoting BA (Reply 24):
The point is the ICAO themselves have sent inspectors to Lebanon

Actually its not ICAO inspectors parse. Inspectors seconded from other countries. You can read about it here;
http://www.icao.int/cgi/goto_anb.pl?soa
The audit teams rely to some extent on approved auditors seconded by Contracting States.

ICAO is pretty much a shell and not much guts besides a lots of bureaucracy. For real work they rely on individual states to pitch in, including the FAA.

Quoting BA (Reply 24):
You brought the US and FAA into this discussion later.

As far as the FAA is concerned as I posted;
The Lebanese civil aviation authorities have repeatedly refused inspections and are believed not to be fully ICAO compliant.

Quoting BA (Reply 24):
To claim that aviation safety and security standards in Lebanon are insufficient simply because the US has not conducted its own personal audit is ridiculous and extremely arrogant.

Not really.

The US is the single largest aviation security/safety auditor state in ICAO and lots of nations automatically accept the US findings. A country does not need to have US air service to have IASA audits as the FAA conducts such reviews of nations that do not, and likely will never have direct US air service more of a global goodwill effort under the ICAO guise.


At the end of the day, Lebanon would loose nothing by having an IASA audit, unless it already feels it is deficient in some areas which an audit could uncover?
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
BA
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RE: Flying Directly From The USA To Beirut..

Thu Oct 09, 2008 3:45 pm



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 25):
Actually its not ICAO inspectors parse. Inspectors seconded from other countries. You can read about it here;
http://www.icao.int/cgi/goto_anb.pl?soa
The audit teams rely to some extent on approved auditors seconded by Contracting States.

ICAO is pretty much a shell and not much guts besides a lots of bureaucracy. For real work they rely on individual states to pitch in, including the FAA.

I'm not sure what your point is. Nearly all UN entities from peace keeping forces to humanitarian aid agencies such as UNICEF and UNHAS are made up of nations pitching in their own resources, both equipment and people.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 25):
As far as the FAA is concerned as I posted;
The Lebanese civil aviation authorities have repeatedly refused inspections and are believed not to be fully ICAO compliant.

As I have repeatedly pointed out, you brought the FAA into this discussion later.

You're initial argument was very general and was simply that Lebanon's aviation safety and security policies are insufficient, yet I provided you sources that say the complete contrary.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 25):
A country does not need to have US air service to have IASA audits as the FAA conducts such reviews of nations that do not, and likely will never have direct US air service more of a global goodwill effort under the ICAO guise.

The IASA process you mention isn't the process mentioned on the IASA site.
http://www.faa.gov/safety/programs_initiatives/oversight/iasa/more/

I am sure the ICAO contracts the FAA to conduct audits on its behalf, as you pointed out earlier, but as these are done under the behest and financing of the ICAO, these are not going to be considered IASA audits, which are US specific.

With all this arguing, you still keep dodging the original point and have not commented on the fact that the ICAO, the UK's CAA, and Europe's JAA have all conducted audits on Lebanon's CAA and have found it to be compliant? What is your explanation for this?

Are you discrediting the findings of reputable European aviation safety agencies?

I should also point out that Canada conducted its own audit on Lebanon back in 2003 prior to granting AC a license to operate YUL-BEY, it found aviation safety and security procedures to be more than sufficient. The only request they made was for enhanced security and baggage screening for AC's flight, much like what is done at AMM and CAI for US-bound flights. Care to explain Canada's findings?

Not even the US State Department's website is saying aviation safety and security standards in Lebanon are deficient. They take a neutral position simply stating that an FAA IASA audit has not been conducted on Lebanon because there is no direct commercial air service between the US and Lebanon.

AVIATION SAFETY OVERSIGHT: As there is no direct commercial air service to the United States by carriers registered in Lebanon, the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) has not assessed Lebanon’s Civil Aviation Authority for compliance with International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) aviation safety standards. For more information, travelers may visit the FAA’s web site at http://www.faa.gov/safety/programs_initiatives/oversight/iasa.

Again, care to explain?

You still have not explained why not a single nation (besides the US as you claim) has voiced any concerns about Lebanon's aviation safety and security standards nor has issued any ban on flights to Lebanon (besides the US, for political reasons). Care to explain?

Is the entire world deficient when it comes to aviation safety and security standards except the US?

Explain to me how Lebanon has commercial air service to 35 countries if its aviation safety and security standards are deficient? Are these 35 countries just as deficient as Lebanon is?

For just one minute, take yourself out of your US-centric mindset...

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 25):
At the end of the day, Lebanon would loose nothing by having an IASA audit, unless it already feels it is deficient in some areas which an audit could uncover?

I still have a very hard time believing that Lebanon has denied or even received any IASA audit request considering that numerous agencies have conducted their own audits and have never been blocked? Explain?
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
LAXintl
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RE: Flying Directly From The USA To Beirut..

Thu Oct 09, 2008 4:38 pm



Quoting BA (Reply 26):
Are you discrediting the findings of reputable European aviation safety agencies?



Quoting BA (Reply 26):
Is the entire world deficient when it comes to aviation safety and security standards except the US?

European aviation agency views, or findings are not binding by the US government.
The US conducts its own aviation safety/security audits.

If you look at the IASA list there are multiple countries on there that the Europeans have found OK, that were found to be deficient by US authorities.

Europe (French for instance) have a much more general wink and a nod attitude allowing nations with historical politics and business ties that seem to be miraculously ok, but when other authorities review them to be non compliant with basic ICAO regulations. Look at much of Africa for example.

Quoting BA (Reply 26):
Again, care to explain?

As the document states, the US has not accessed Lebanon. And as I have added, the US since 1999 on two occasions has attempted to access Lebanon only to be denied. (I would happily try to explain maybe why, however you would call that hearsay.)

And again, IASA audits in no ways require direct US airlinks for the audit. Many nations not having US services have been reviewed.

Quoting BA (Reply 26):
For just one minute, take yourself out of your US-centric mindset...

For this discussion I am explaining US policy and view, however I have far from a US centric view having been born, lived and worked overseas particularly in the Middle East.

I have a strong knowledge and understanding of the realities in Lebanon which might not agree with you, however there are many more issues below the surface that might not be very obvious to you.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
BA
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Joined: Fri May 19, 2000 11:06 am

RE: Flying Directly From The USA To Beirut..

Fri Oct 10, 2008 2:43 am



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 27):
European aviation agency views, or findings are not binding by the US government.
The US conducts its own aviation safety/security audits.

The debate here is whether Lebanon's civil aviation safety and security procedures are sufficient or not based on international standards, not about about whether European agency findings are binding by the US government or not.

We've settled that the US conducts its own aviation safety/security audits. There is no need to keep repeating this.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 27):
If you look at the IASA list there are multiple countries on there that the Europeans have found OK, that were found to be deficient by US authorities.

Yet Belize, Ghana, Guyana, Honduras, Haiti, Nicaragua, the Philippines, the Ukraine, and Uruguay which have all been given a category 2 classification (meaning they don't meet ICAO standards) have direct flights to the USA.

Clearly it's not as clear cut as you say it is. Let's take Bangladesh for example which the US has labeled a category 2. Just because there are flights to the EU from Bangladesh, it doesn't mean they've given Bangladesh a free ride. A number of Bangladeshi airlines are on the EU's blacklist and numerous concerns have been raised about Biman Bangladesh Airlines in the past.

It's not as simple as saying that countries the US have found to be deficient have been found to be more than sufficient by Europe, especially since the US is allowing flights to numerous countries it's found deficient.

Based on this, the only logical explanation I can think of is that aviation safety oversight in those countries has been deemed insufficient, but aviation security standards are sufficient. That explains why BA can fly to Dhaka while Air Bangladesh cannot fly to the EU and why DL can fly to Accra and why a Ghanaian carrier might be restricted from flying to the US.

Again, none of this proves that Lebanon's aviation safety and security standards are deficient as you continue to claim.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 27):
Europe (French for instance) have a much more general wink and a nod attitude allowing nations with historical politics and business ties that seem to be miraculously ok, but when other authorities review them to be non compliant with basic ICAO regulations. Look at much of Africa for example.

This may be and in Lebanon's case would only apply to France. The UK, which conducted an extensive audit on Lebanon a few years ago, has no reason to have a "general wink and nod" attitude towards Lebanon, especially since the UK requires visas for Lebanese citizens to transit in the UK and often times check passports of arriving passengers from BEY at the entrance of the jet bridge in the terminal out of fear that some might destroy their passports (or destroyed them on the plane) and attempt to claim asylum in the UK. Hardly a warm "wink and nod" attitude...

And again, how is it the US has allowed flights to Ghana despite being classified a category 2? Again, the only explanation I can think of is that aviation security standards were deemed sufficient enough to allow an American carrier to safely operate there. The issue must be aviation safety oversight, which would not apply to an American carrier.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 27):

For this discussion I am explaining US policy and view, however I have far from a US centric view having been born, lived and worked overseas particularly in the Middle East.

The US policy view is that they have not conducted an IASA assessment on Lebanon, nothing more.

Again, you claimed that aviation security and safety oversight in Lebanon is insufficient. I provided you sources that say the contrary.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 27):
I have a strong knowledge and understanding of the realities in Lebanon which might not agree with you, however there are many more issues below the surface that might not be very obvious to you.

Please. I am very well aware of the unfortunate situation and turmoil Lebanon has been facing for the past three years and has faced throughout its young 65-year history, but aviation safety and security oversight is not one of them.

You seem to forget that the US allowed MEA flights to JFK back in the 80's, a time when Lebanon was in the midst of a civil war, and aviation safety and security oversight was certainly not what it is today.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran

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