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DeltaMD90
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"What If" Past Airline Mergers

Sun Jun 21, 2009 7:27 pm

Ok, if you hate hypothetical threads, hit the back button. For those of you "what if" kind of people, what do you think the airline industry would be like if those near merges in the past actually happened? We all know about UA+US, but what if NW+Northeast Airlines merged? They came close if I recall. And what if Braniff (I think it was them) acquired Pan Am's Atlantic routes instead of Delta? Do you think some of the big players today would be as big, and do you think some airlines non existent today would still be around? Remember, this is supposed to be a fun thread, let's keep our "A.net professionalism."  Smile
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
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ERJ170
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RE: "What If" Past Airline Mergers

Sun Jun 21, 2009 7:32 pm

Here's mine..

What if Midway (JI) had taken the funds from Mr Goodnight to stay afloat. Would they still be around? Would they be international? Would they have merged with someone? Would they have a 2nd hub?

What if........
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NWADC9
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RE: "What If" Past Airline Mergers

Sun Jun 21, 2009 7:32 pm

AA+NW = AA

Then again, any merger with AA is like a wolf taking out a sheep for dinner - with the sheep being the Chef's Special...
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DeltaMD90
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RE: "What If" Past Airline Mergers

Sun Jun 21, 2009 7:35 pm



Quoting NWADC9 (Reply 2):
AA+NW = AA

Did they ever try to merge? I've only kept track of aviation since like 2005 so I wouldn't know...
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
blink182
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RE: "What If" Past Airline Mergers

Sun Jun 21, 2009 7:51 pm



Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 3):

Back around 2000 or so, I believe that UA and US were considering a merger or something close to that effect, and if I remember correctly, AA and NW were in talks to merge or partner intensively as a response. Ultimately, those talks did not work out, and AA bought TWA.
I'm a little hazy on the details, and possibly even the time period, but yes, AA and NW did talk about a possible merger. Now, I don't know how intensive the talks became, but I remember that rumors swirled around on A.net.

Hope this helps.
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aussiestu
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RE: "What If" Past Airline Mergers

Sun Jun 21, 2009 8:03 pm

What if BA and KLM had merged? There were some serious talks in the 90s I believe. Would we have a much better BA and KLM than now??????
 
steex
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RE: "What If" Past Airline Mergers

Sun Jun 21, 2009 8:04 pm



Quoting NWADC9 (Reply 2):
AA+NW = AA

That is one that intrigues me as well, particularly in the upper midwest. It seems unreasonable that the combined airline would maintain ORD, DTW, and MSP. I always wondered if AA would've reduced DTW and moved most of the international flight to ORD in an attempt to build a powerhouse hub against UA, or if AA would've reduced ORD in favor of building an even stronger fortress hub up the road at DTW rather than doing direct battle with UA (and ATA/WN) in Chicago. If they chose ORD over DTW, that would also bring MSP into question. I'm guessing MEM would have become something between what it is today and what STL is today.

One thing I'm certain of is that AA would have loved NW's Pacific access.
 
northstardc4m
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RE: "What If" Past Airline Mergers

Sun Jun 21, 2009 8:18 pm

Ok well here's the ultimate "what if"

What if Pan Am hadn't bought National (Mk1 all original sun king)?

If PA hadn't chased Lorenzo for National, Lorenzo would not of been able to aquire Eastern

Now Eastern would of been a much better fit for Pan Am, better matched fleet, hubs, and a bigger presence in the Domestic market.

Lorenzo would of eventually merged National into Continental most likely, and probably not bought People Express... maybe even not starting New York Air but that was already being planned... Texas Air would of been left with one airline with problems ( for example without buying EA CO never would of gotten a real CRS like SystemOne) and probably an uphill battle to get any real market share and no real working captial (Lorenzo's capital to buy Eastern came from his inflated price shares in the National deal)

Pan Am + Eastern would of had a decent fleet (Dc-9, 732, 721, 722, 752, 741, 742, AB3, L10, L15 and 310s on order), a strong east coast presence with hubs at MIA, ATL, and LGA/JFK, and a good backbone to south america and europe.

Option B) EA+TWA... they actually tried this one, never worked out though... again good match, TWA's east-west network and Europe plus Easterns North-South and Latin America services.
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FWAERJ
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RE: "What If" Past Airline Mergers

Sun Jun 21, 2009 8:34 pm

Let's not forget "Doug Parker's New Delta" hostile takeover attempt and what might have been if DL+US had happened instead of DL+NW. Here's my 2 cents:

First, the Widget logo would be killed in favor of some design consultant's uninspired dream, and Doug's DL leaves SkyTeam for Star. Then, the ATL and SLC hubs would have been gutted a la PIT in favor of a massive buildup at CLT and PHX. Next, the oil spike happens, and DL's international routes are shrunk, the $2 can of Coke comes along (and stays unlike what happened recently, because Doug's DL has a lot of market power), and new fees are added like crazy (BOB snacks replacing meals on trans-Pacific/Altantic, etc.). Finally, Doug's DL buys yet another airline (probably United) to "increase market penetration".

And, of course, all this is going on while the US West/US East/Legacy DL pilots would still be on separate contracts/seniority lists due to infighting.

But, one thing would be similar to the eventual DL+NW: a very diverse fleet!
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xaphan
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RE: "What If" Past Airline Mergers

Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:21 pm

Back in the early 1960s, AA and EA tried to merge. That would have been a massive airline!

About the same time, there were rumours that DL and CO might merge. Their routes would have meshed together well back then. Supposedly the reason why the idea never got floated was that Bob Six and C E Woolman wouldn't give up control.
 
seemyseems
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RE: "What If" Past Airline Mergers

Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:22 pm



Quoting Aussiestu (Reply 5):
What if BA and KLM had merged? There were some serious talks in the 90s I believe. Would we have a much better BA and KLM than now??????

I really wanted to see the outcome of that merger, I posted about it and one member posted that BA planned to take KL out of Asia.

If this merger did go through what would've happen to KL?
seemyseems
 
OPNLguy
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RE: "What If" Past Airline Mergers

Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:56 pm

At one point in the early 1980s, there was talk of Air Florida buying Western Airlines. Never happened, of course, and about 5 years or so later Delta acquired Western...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
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CV880
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RE: "What If" Past Airline Mergers

Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:19 pm



Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 8):
Let's not forget "Doug Parker's New Delta" hostile takeover attempt and what might have been if DL+US had happened instead of DL+NW. Here's my 2 cents:



Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 8):
First, the Widget logo would be killed in favor of some design consultant's uninspired dream, and Doug's DL leaves SkyTeam for Star. Then, the ATL and SLC hubs would have been gutted a la PIT in favor of a massive buildup at CLT

ATL is what Parker wanted, and the City of CLT was against this one from the get go.
 
BMI727
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RE: "What If" Past Airline Mergers

Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:34 pm



Quoting Xaphan (Reply 9):
Back in the early 1960s, AA and EA tried to merge.

In the late 70s/early 80s BN and EA had merger talks.

Quoting Blink182 (Reply 4):
Back around 2000 or so, I believe that UA and US were considering a merger or something close to that effect, and if I remember correctly,

That was floating around for a long time and I think it finally died around 2005/2006.
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cf6ppe
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RE: "What If" Past Airline Mergers

Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:39 pm



Quoting Xaphan (Reply 9):
Back in the early 1960s, AA and EA tried to merge. That would have been a massive airline!

The AA and EAL merger did not succeed due to EAL being an unwilling merger partner.

AA and EAL withdrew their merger request from the CAB hearing when it was doubtful that the merger would be CAB approved.

The AA - EAL merger is laid out between pages 337 through 347 of the "From the Captain to the Colonel" an informal history of Eastern Airlines.

The fact that the AA - EAL merger didn't happen has been mentioned in earlier A-net forums.
 
tommy767
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RE: "What If" Past Airline Mergers

Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:40 pm

DL and CO considered merging several times in the late 1990s, I'm thinking 1998.

UA and US in 2000 was a BIG deal and was shot down by the courts. The combined UA/US had a proposed route map which indicated their massive network including PHL/BOS-NRT. Obviously this never happened but would have been very interesting if it did.

Also DCair was to be operated in a conjoined agreement with UA/US and AA for slots involving the DCA. It was decided that if DCair was to become a reality, it would be operated with F100s.
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AirframeAS
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RE: "What If" Past Airline Mergers

Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:53 pm



Quoting Blink182 (Reply 4):
Back around 2000 or so, I believe that UA and US were considering a merger or something close to that effect, and if I remember correctly, AA and NW were in talks to merge or partner intensively as a response. Ultimately, those talks did not work out, and AA bought TWA.

The result of that turned out that the mergers mentioned was declared deeply anti-competitive by the DOT/DOJ and that was the end of it.
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EASTERN
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RE: "What If" Past Airline Mergers

Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:57 pm

I remember reading about a proposed HP/TW merger. That would have been interesting.
P from NYC
 
F9Animal
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RE: "What If" Past Airline Mergers

Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:06 pm

I would have been interested in seeing Republic Airlines merge with PSA. Then a Republic/US Airways would have been several years down the road. I could only dream to see Herman still in our skies.
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mtnwest1979
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RE: "What If" Past Airline Mergers

Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:38 pm

I remember the incessant WA/CO merger discussions that always seemed to be 'almost imminent' that never came to pass. That would have been an interesting one at the time. I suppose if that had happened, the WA hub at SLC would not have come about as it did, assuming CO kept big hub in DEN. They probably would have had a larger presence in LAX. But as time wore on, maybe not much to date.
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1stfl94
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RE: "What If" Past Airline Mergers

Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:46 pm

There was talk on here sometime ago about Pan Am and Northwest merging in the late 80s. Don't know how it would have worked domestically but it would have made a very strong international airline, big networks in Europe, South America and Asia and a very modern fleet for the time (both airlines had big A320 fleets on order, plus NW had the A330, A340 and 747-400 on order around 1988)

In the UK there's been talk of VS and BD merging since about 2003, possibly even earlier, a move which could make sense but I don't think either company has the money to do it properly. Back in 1987 there were several merger proposals for BCal. SAS suggested merging BCal and Dan Air to make their Gatwick operations stronger whilst Air Europe was also trying to buy them. Could have looked very interesting if BA hadn't been so mean!
 
CIDFlyer
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RE: "What If" Past Airline Mergers

Mon Jun 22, 2009 12:33 am



Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 3):
Quoting NWADC9 (Reply 2):
AA+NW = AA

Did they ever try to merge? I've only kept track of aviation since like 2005 so I wouldn't know...

I remember this one, no formal merger was ever announced but there were news stories of them being in talks. This happened shortly after UA/US announced their plans. AA/NW would have been interesting to say the least. ORD would have been the big factor in determining what happened to MSP and DTW. ORD has been one of their mainstay hubs for a long time but DTW and MSP were attractive since they were 'fortress' hubs with no competition unlike ORD. I think they probably would have made MSP strictly domestic and made DTW and ORD into international hubs. MEM probably would have eneded up like STL/BNA, with the routes shifted to DFW.

CO & DL were also rumored to be merging around this time as well (The UA/US announcement triggered the remaining legacies into the talks with one another). I remember the talks if that one had gone thru which midwest hub would have stayed, CLE beacause of good O & D numbers or CVG with ample room for expansion?

I think back around these days AirTran was rumored to be looking into TWA, that would have been interesting....

TWA and HP were also forming an alliance and were rumored to have been merging as well.

I think at one point back in the 90s US might have thought about doing something with TWA. Personally I think that would have been a good combo, and we probably would have seen an STL hub that was still big. I don't thing they ever talked but I think CO & TWA would have made a good combo too, STL could have gave them a bigger prescense in the midwest more than CLE will ever do.

Of course when NWA enetered into their code share with CO back in '98 alot of people assumed that would have ended up in a merger too. That would have been a pretty good route map (except for still be weak out west).

Oh the scenerios.....
 
isitsafenow
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RE: "What If" Past Airline Mergers

Mon Jun 22, 2009 12:37 am



Quoting CF6PPE (Reply 14):

According to an old newspaper clipping, the CAB's reason was both carriers were profitable and at least one in a merger 'should be losing money'.
Exit the merger plans.
The other early 60's merger that was kicked around was a CO-National. It didnt go far either.
The 60's merger buzz was due to Capital and United's marriage June 30 of 1961.
That made UA the largest carrier in the USA in routes, fleet and pax carried.
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EXAAUADL
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RE: "What If" Past Airline Mergers

Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:49 am



Quoting DeltaMD90 (Thread starter):
And what if Braniff (I think it was them) acquired Pan Am's Atlantic routes instead of Delta?

Well PA was still relatively healthy in 1982 when BN went under. The scenario should be in 1978 if PA+BN instead of PA+NA


What if in 1988 UA bought PI and AA bought US?
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: "What If" Past Airline Mergers

Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:52 am



Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 23):
Well PA was still relatively healthy in 1982 when BN went under. The scenario should be in 1978 if PA+BN instead of PA+NA

Oh ok I heard that story from my dad but I think I got the BN part wrong... who got in a bidding war with DL over PA's TA routes?
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
centrair
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RE: "What If" Past Airline Mergers

Mon Jun 22, 2009 2:16 am



Quoting 1stfl94 (Reply 20):
(both airlines had big A320 fleets on order, plus NW had the A330, A340 and 747-400 on order around 1988)

Did NW have the A330 and A340 on order in 1998? I thought they ordered them in the 1990s.

I wonder what would have happened if US and NW would have merged...
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rikkus67
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RE: "What If" Past Airline Mergers

Mon Jun 22, 2009 4:13 am

A couple for Canadian members:


What if Greyhound, Roots, and Westjet had merged?

What if Wardair & Nationair merged?

What if Air Transat & Royal had merged?

What if Canada 3000 & Air Transat had merged?

What if Canadi>n and Wardair HADN'T merged?

What if Canada 3000, Royal, and Canjet merged? Oh, wait a minute...
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ksancoflyer
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RE: "What If" Past Airline Mergers

Mon Jun 22, 2009 5:00 am

That would be so cool to see a modern Pan Am, TWA, or Eastern. I would totally fly them. but then again, they wouldn't mean as much because they would still be successful, but still, it would be cool.
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sunking737
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RE: "What If" Past Airline Mergers

Mon Jun 22, 2009 5:29 am

Don't forget that back in the early 1960's Western and American had a deal. But it was never approved.

How many times in the 1980's did Western and Continental try to merge.

How things would have turned out if Northwest did not buy out Republic. I would have been happier.
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N200WN
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RE: "What If" Past Airline Mergers

Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:19 am

The original PSA was in some kind of talks to assume some of Braniff's operations after the bankruptcy. I wonder how that would have turned out...PSA with a DFW hub.
 
JQflightie
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RE: "What If" Past Airline Mergers

Mon Jun 22, 2009 7:23 am

now.... what if Air New Zealand actually saved Ansett and merged!
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DesertAir
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RE: "What If" Past Airline Mergers

Mon Jun 22, 2009 2:50 pm

What if PSA and AirCal had merged? Would they have been able to fight off their mergers with US and AA? Not merging with US and AA would have allowed them to control the California interstate market and prevent from Southwest from taking over.
 
Delta777Jet
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RE: "What If" Past Airline Mergers

Mon Jun 22, 2009 10:23 pm

What if questions sound really fun, but it's only a guess ....

But my what if question would be,

Would be TWA still alive, if HP would have taken over TWA and merged them together to a bigger and better TWA? Would they still be around?
What fleet?
What hubs?
Which alliance?

My guess:
A-318/319/320/321
B-757-200
B-767-300 or A-330-200/300
and either
B-787-800/900 + B-777-200/300 or A-350 on order!

Hubs:
PHX
STL
LAX
JFK
Focus Cities: FLL LAS BOS SJU

Oneworld Alliance

Just my guess, what do you think?
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fanofjets
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RE: "What If" Past Airline Mergers

Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:36 am

What if Virgin Atlantic had merged with Air Atlantique? You would have a combination of brand-new widebodies and classic oldies; at least VS would have had reason to keep those lovely Viscounts:


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And in the States, let's not forget those Vintage Airways DC-3s


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Photo © Andy Martin - AirTeamImages

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Viscount724
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RE: "What If" Past Airline Mergers

Tue Jun 23, 2009 2:20 am



Quoting Rikkus67 (Reply 26):
What if Canadi>n and Wardair HADN'T merged?

Wardair would probably have gone bust as they were in a deep financial hole due to the costs and fleet expansion related to their conversion from a charter operator to a scheduled carrier. Canadian would have lasted a little longer as they really couldn't afford the $300 million (or thereabouts) they overpaid for Wardair. The only thing of value Canadian got from Wardair was scheduled traffic rights to the UK which they probably would have got anyway as the Canada-UK bilateral was in the process of being liberalized then.

As a sidenote, Max Ward, Wardair's founder and CEO for their entire history will be 88 in November. He's the only one who really benefited from the sale of Wardair. As the major shareholder he wound up with a significant amount of the purchase price.

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