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falstaff
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DC-9 1st Or 2nd Generation?

Thu Jul 09, 2009 6:02 pm

This morning I was flying on NW DC-9-30 N8929E STL-DTW, which was built in 1967. Would the DC-9 fall into the 1st or second generation jet category?

Some would say that the 1st generation jets are the B707, DC-8, Caravelle, Comet, and CV880 as they brought us the first jet travel. With the exception of the Caravelle and CV880 they were long range planes, at least for the time. They did not push all the piston powered passenger planes out of the sky though. Planes like the Connie and DC-6 went on to fly less prestigious routes with major carries for several more years. Planes like the DC-9 and 727 came along in the 1960s and pushed the piston airliners out of the secandary routes. I would say that any jet plane that pushed out piston on mainline travel for a major carrier is a 1st generation jet.

I get this theory from my other hobby of railroading. It is commonly thought in North America that 1st generation diesels, like the EMD GP-7 are the diesels that replaced steam engines and 2nd generation diesels, such as the EMD SD-40 are the models that replaced the 1st generation. Third generation is the models that replaced those, such as EMD SD-70s. Of course there are still old locomotives all over the place on secondary railroads and on large railroad branches, but the last steam was displaced on mainline class one railroads in 1962 (on the Colorado & Southern). The transition from steam locomotive to diesel was reasonbly fast, with the first all diesel class one being GM&O in 1949 to Colorado & Southern (CB&Q), in 1962 being the last. The piston engine airlines left the major carriers just as fast.

DC-9s certianly didn't replace 707s or DC-8s, it was planes like the A300 or 757 that did that, that being the second generation. DC-9s were replaced by newer 737s, MD-80s and A319s. DC-9s were built all the way to 1982, the last being a DC-9-30. That is if you don't count and MD-80s as DC-9s. Certianly by 1982 the first generation of jetliners had passed, but where do we draw the line? The last passenger 707 was built in 1978 and that certianly isn't 1st generation jet era either.

What do you think? How are the generations of jetliners classified?
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PI4EVER
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RE: DC-9 1st Or 2nd Generation?

Thu Jul 09, 2009 7:09 pm

Hey Bryan:
I would assume (as a bit of an old-timer) that the original DC-9's manufactured in 1964 and 1965 would constitute the first generation of that class of aircraft, otherwise, the rationale would go to the first generation of jets in general which would be the Comet 1 in the early 50's.
I flew DL from MSY-ATL-SAV in 1966 on a DC-8-53 to ATL, connecting to the newly-delivered "Delta Prince" DC-9-10 on to SAV. I was a young military guy flying standby and they put me in FC on the 9. I remember being served a beer, but having to brush my teeth before landing so my Mother wouldn't realize I had been drinking! She didn't know I smoked either until she found a carton of cigarettes (which cost $2.50) in my duffel bag!
On that day, I flew a Southern Airways DC-3 GPT-MSY, the 8 to ATL, and the new 9 to SAV. I covered a couple generations of Douglas aircraft on that one military standby ticket that cost me $26!
Many "generations" of airplanes later, I'm still riding 'um.
Good point to research. We'll see how others respond as well,
Thomas
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MEA-707
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RE: DC-9 1st Or 2nd Generation?

Thu Jul 09, 2009 8:14 pm

DC-9 10 to 50 is definitely the 2nd generation. It replaced either first generation jets like Caravelles (Swissair, SAS, Alitalia, Iberia) and the final propliners like DC-7s and Electra's (KLM, Delta, Eastern). Also the technics and engines were more modern and efficient then the aircraft it replaced. Even a 1966 DC-9 had about 30% lower fuel use then a Caravelle, it also had a 2 person cockpit, a first for a plane with more then 60 seats. The ASM costs remain reasonable, it would have been economically impossible the Caravelle or 707 would still have a role like the DC-9 til now.
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IAHFLYR
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RE: DC-9 1st Or 2nd Generation?

Fri Jul 10, 2009 2:46 am



Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 2):
Caravelles (Swissair, SAS, Alitalia, Iberia)

And UA had a some Caravelles.

Quoting Falstaff (Thread starter):
DC-9s were built all the way to 1982, the last being a DC-9-30.

What about the DC9-50's? Not sure when their production line ended, but it may have been after the 30's.
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MEA-707
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RE: DC-9 1st Or 2nd Generation?

Fri Jul 10, 2009 7:37 am



Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 3):
What about the DC9-50's? Not sure when their production line ended, but it may have been after the 30's.

No the final DC-9-50 was l/n 993, built in april 1981 for Finnair (OH-LYZ), after that there were some more DC-9-30s. It was the same production line as for the MD-80, for 2-3 years they shared it
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DocLightning
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RE: DC-9 1st Or 2nd Generation?

Sat Jul 11, 2009 1:13 am



Quoting Falstaff (Thread starter):
DC-9s certianly didn't replace 707s or DC-8s,

No. It replaced the BAC-111 and the Caravelle. Both 1st-gen jets.

I think of DC-9 as the second generation. The MD-80/90 and 737 Classic were third-generation and the A320 and 73G are the 4th wave. That's just me. You can talk to me about how old an A320 is, but it's only 5 years or so older than the 73G and it still gets orders over the 73G.
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falstaff
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RE: DC-9 1st Or 2nd Generation?

Sat Jul 11, 2009 4:06 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
It replaced the BAC-111 and the Caravelle. Both 1st-gen jets.

The DC-9 and the BAC 1-11 both began operations in the same year, 1965. The DC-9 was in production longer and was in service longer, but that probably has to do with the plane's sales volume, quality, and reliability. Both the DC-9 and BAC 1-11 are products of the 1960s.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
You can talk to me about how old an A320 is

An A320 is not old at all.... It is like new. Just like these kids today talking about cars from the 1990s as old.

The Caravelle was not a common airliner in the US and the DC-9 sold in much great numbers; 282 vs 976. So to say the DC-9 replaced the Caravelle really isn't the case in North America considering that most of the airlines never had Caravells to begin with. UA was a Caravelle operator and I don't recall them ever having DC-9s
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Viscount724
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RE: DC-9 1st Or 2nd Generation?

Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:05 am



Quoting Falstaff (Reply 6):
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
It replaced the BAC-111 and the Caravelle. Both 1st-gen jets.

The DC-9 and the BAC 1-11 both began operations in the same year, 1965. The DC-9 was in production longer and was in service longer, but that probably has to do with the plane's sales volume, quality, and reliability. Both the DC-9 and BAC 1-11 are products of the 1960s.

Agreed, the BAC 1-11 and DC-9 were direct competitors. The 1-11 would probably have gone into service a year or so before the DC-9 if the prototype hadn't crashed killing all aboard just 2 months after the first flight. They had to make various changes to prevent "deep stalls" which caused the prototype crash. The 1-11 took almost 20 months from first flight to first service. The DC-9 development program was much smoother. The first DC-9 was delivered less than 10 months after the first flight.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: DC-9 1st Or 2nd Generation?

Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:54 pm



Quoting Falstaff (Reply 6):

An A320 is not old at all.... It is like new. Just like these kids today talking about cars from the 1990s as old.

Punks.  Wink
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