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DocLightning
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Will Foreign Airlines Get Fed Up?

Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:30 am

So we all agree that the TSA's response to the recent NW incident at DTW is a mixture of absurdity and stupidity.

But the other half of the problem is that it's also expensive. The flight delays caused by these measures cost the airlines money. Not only that, but they will discourage Americans from traveling abroad and foreigners from coming here. No IFE, nothing in your lap, not even a paperback book an hour prior to landing, no getting out of your seat for the last hour.

At some point, do you think that a major foreign carrier might decide that the TSA's penchant for erratically enacting bizarre and unreasonable rules is simply too much of a risk to their already slim profit margin and simply stop serving the U.S.?
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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MAH4546
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RE: Will Foreign Airlines Get Fed Up?

Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:33 am



Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):

At some point, do you think that a major foreign carrier might decide that the TSA's penchant for erratically enacting bizarre and unreasonable rules is simply too much of a risk to their already slim profit margin and simply stop serving the U.S.?

Nope.

Trans-Atlantic revenue is far too important.
a.
 
Elite
Posts: 2296
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RE: Will Foreign Airlines Get Fed Up?

Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:34 am

The question is: Will PASSENGERS get fed up?

Restricted to their seats an hour before landing, even longer security lines(!), more checked bags and possibly more lost bags, etc.

Air travel is down 20% since 2008 (well, also due to the financial crisis) but this will not help things for the airline industry.
 
BOACCunard
Posts: 316
Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:59 am

RE: Will Foreign Airlines Get Fed Up?

Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:54 am

A major foreign carrier? No.

It might push over the edge a small one that was contemplating doing so anyway, but that's about it.

The US is an extremely important market for most of the world's major airlines. Only an airline with very limited US service might even consider such a thing.
Getting There is Half the Fun!
 
AusA380
Posts: 113
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RE: Will Foreign Airlines Get Fed Up?

Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:59 am

I think the non US airlines will keep flying whilst there are pax, however the issue will be will the pax be there. Whilst I travel to the US on business from time to time, I don't think our family will holiday in the US in the future. I also think people who use to transit the US will seek alternatives.
 
stratosphere
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RE: Will Foreign Airlines Get Fed Up?

Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:22 am



Quoting Elite (Reply 2):
The question is: Will PASSENGERS get fed up?

That is the million dollar question...You know there is an A net member here HAL an Hawaiian Airlines pilot who had tried to pursuade me that airline travel of the past had it's same trial and tribulations much like airline travel today..I still disagree with him even more so now..I as a passenger as much as I like aviation almost can't stand flying anymore because of the hassle and now with these islamic idiots it is getting progressively worse. As it is now if I have the time I will choose driving over flying up too 1000 miles. And if I am willing to do that I know others will.
 
sflaflight
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RE: Will Foreign Airlines Get Fed Up?

Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:24 am

I don't know, but I'll I have to say is foreign carriers, especially European ones, should not let their eye off the ball. There are parts of Europe, especially France and England that are ticking with disgusted youth. I hope this last incident heightens awareness for all. While it is a pain in the butt, these measures are necessary. Who knows what info the US is getting from this guy. It will cost more to prevent, train, etc. but the trans Atlantic market is too valueable. We are all in this together, love it or not.

[Edited 2009-12-27 02:27:59 by sflaflight]
 
solair
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RE: Will Foreign Airlines Get Fed Up?

Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:36 am

I'm a little concerned that I might not be able to survive a flight where I had to stay in my seat for the last hour. I have a slight problem where my stomach gets very sick during long-haul flights (very bad gas/cramps etc ... I think it's something to do with pressure changes) and frankly the thought of being stuck in my seat for that length of time without access to a WC would put me off flying long-haul permanently.

So, unfortunately, I think I will be postponing any holidays to the US for the time being.

I doubt I'm the only passenger who will find that restriction pretty off putting to put it mildly.
 
davehammer
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RE: Will Foreign Airlines Get Fed Up?

Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:36 am

I cant see it myself. I think you may see a slight tail off in the people who used to do 3/4/5 day New York shopping trips or stuff like that but the US market is still too to see any major reduction. As someone who likes visiting the US though, often visiting 3 times a year for leisure purposes, I'm finding myself less and less willing to go. The latest TSA rules are really something else but I'm not surprised in the slightest. The restrictions on IFE and no standing 1 hour before landing is absolutely absurd.

Quoting Sflaflight (Reply 6):
I don't know, but I'll I have to say is foreign carriers, especially European ones, should not let their eye off the ball. There are parts of Europe, especially France and England that are ticking with disgusted youth.

It's nothing new at all over here. Before the extreme elements of Islam, we had the IRA trying anything and everything.
 
slinky09
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RE: Will Foreign Airlines Get Fed Up?

Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:47 am

The answer is of course down to whether foreign visitors stop flying, and that seems incontrovertible according to your own government figures: spending by visitors down 12% in October from the previous year, airline receipts down 16% from the previous year. Now there's a likely reason for that and it's call recession, but the figures are interesting in noting that spending by Americans abroad is down less than spending by visitors to America ... I'd like to see the effect of these latest restrictions on January 2010 year on year.

See here: http://tinet.ita.doc.gov/tinews/archive/tinews2009/20091222.html

Quoting Sflaflight (Reply 6):
I don't know, but I'll I have to say is foreign carriers, especially European ones, should not let their eye off the ball. There are parts of Europe, especially France and England that are ticking with disgusted youth. I hope this last incident heightens awareness for all.

Let's be clear here, while this is 100% true, no one has yet denied that this latest terrorist was on a US security watch list for two years. Alertness spans countries.

Quoting Solair (Reply 7):
I doubt I'm the only passenger who will find that restriction pretty off putting to put it mildly.

I 100% agree - there are going to be a lot of 'accidents' on seats and then legal claims for restriction of freedom to move and spend a penny. Of the five trips I have planned in Q1 I am now looking at what I can cancel unless these latest rules are repealed or replaced with something commonsensical.
 
sflaflight
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RE: Will Foreign Airlines Get Fed Up?

Sun Dec 27, 2009 11:03 am



Quoting Davehammer (Reply 8):
It's nothing new at all over here. Before the extreme elements of Islam, we had the IRA trying anything and everything.

Yes sorry guys, I should have worded it differently. I need to be fair here, I have been to Europe several times in the past 6 months passing through LHR, CDG, MXP, LIN, MAD and AMS, and I must say that LHR was the most stringent and cautious, but the rest, oh my! What I meant was that those carieers need to use their clout and make sure airports are vigilant.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Will Foreign Airlines Get Fed Up?

Sun Dec 27, 2009 11:03 am

As some others suggested, some airlines may end service to locations in Europe, USA and Canada not so much due to the costs of new rules, but rather that higher security fees, expansion of 'no-fly' lists reducing the number of people who can fly, fewer people who can afford to travel and some no longer wanting to deal with the increasing hassles of flying.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Will Foreign Airlines Get Fed Up?

Sun Dec 27, 2009 11:07 am

Jeeze, even after 9/11, getting through airports was a little more annoying sure, but come on, it's not the end of the world. They tried to blow up a plane! Multiple times! Of course the US is going to put restrictions on. It would hurt a carrier more to stop serving the US than it would hurt America. In fact, I'm sure the legacies over here would love to pick up the slack.
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
brandonfsu05
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RE: Will Foreign Airlines Get Fed Up?

Sun Dec 27, 2009 11:30 am



Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
So we all agree that the TSA's response to the recent NW incident at DTW is a mixture of absurdity and stupidity.

But the other half of the problem is that it's also expensive. The flight delays caused by these measures cost the airlines money. Not only that, but they will discourage Americans from traveling abroad and foreigners from coming here. No IFE, nothing in your lap, not even a paperback book an hour prior to landing, no getting out of your seat for the last hour.

At some point, do you think that a major foreign carrier might decide that the TSA's penchant for erratically enacting bizarre and unreasonable rules is simply too much of a risk to their already slim profit margin and simply stop serving the U.S.?

No they won't stop. The market is way too big for that. Besides I think we will see the rules ease up over time. I honestly don't think the rules are that bad....except for not being able to have any item in your lap. Lol. Okay that is ridiculous. I think not making announcements of the plane being in US airspace or being able to use the map is fine though (as much as I like the map). Lol I think these restrictions could be lifted if only we had Tel Aviv + El Al security worldwide. I think the Israelis need to come to the US and EU and show people how it is done lol.

But because of the sensationalism...people reading things in papers and what not I think we will definitely see some pax avoid the US. Some don't come now because they have to be fingerprinted and photographed everytime. But that's a trade off for ''security'' vs ''economic activity''
 
HT
Posts: 5857
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 6:20 am

RE: Will Foreign Airlines Get Fed Up?

Sun Dec 27, 2009 6:26 pm



Quoting Davehammer (Reply 8):
The restrictions on IFE and no standing 1 hour before landing is absolutely absurd.

Restriction on moving map is nonsense:
Height above ground can be estimated.
Position can be determined after having memorized a map properly, if there is ground view.

"Remain seated for the last hour":
Some carriers were putting on the "Fasten Seatbelt" sign 1 hour prior to touchdown even now.
What was (is ?) the restrictive time to remain seated when flying into DCA post 9/11 ?
-HT
Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
 
BlatantEcho
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RE: Will Foreign Airlines Get Fed Up?

Sun Dec 27, 2009 6:36 pm

If the US used its money to build infrastructure, high speed rail and all that, we would have some choice domestically at least. But, we're pretty screwed there.


Internationally, leisure travelers will continue to travel on the yearly vacation no matter what.
Will the top end business travelers put up with this, or instead choose video conferencing, etc.


The problem is, ALL the security costs, all of that insanity, is passed on to the customers.
At a certain point, customers just throw up their hands and say: not worth it.
They're not handing trophies out today
 
sflaflight
Posts: 494
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RE: Will Foreign Airlines Get Fed Up?

Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:55 pm

Why was this moved from civil aviation to polls & preferences? Just trying to figure out where to post what.
 
HT
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RE: Will Foreign Airlines Get Fed Up?

Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:45 pm



Quoting BlatantEcho (Reply 15):
Will the top end business travelers put up with this, or instead choose video conferencing, etc.

The trend to limit travel expenses by replacing (short and longhaul) travel with video conferences has been in place for some years now. The recent recession (at least at my employer) was another reason to cut back on business travel even further.

Quoting Sflaflight (Reply 16):
Why was this moved from civil aviation to polls & preferences? Just trying to figure out where to post what.

Likely because, it is asking for opinions, as there is not a single answer to topic's question.
If you really need to know the reason, I suggest to email the mods at moderators@airliners.net

-HT
Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
 
LDIkaros
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RE: Will Foreign Airlines Get Fed Up?

Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:56 am

I don't think that the newly implemented rules are well thought out and they may get revised soon. However, IF they stay in place as currently proposed then they will likely have an effect on int'l travel to the US.

Let's face it - the US has a lot to offer for int'l visitors but there are many other countries where European or Asian visitors can go without much hassle. If people want to come here they still will come but they will likely come less often. Other countries/regions will gain tourists at the expense of the US. This has already happened after 9/11 and will most likely continue to happen in the future.

And it's not just these new rules - they are just the latest hassle factor. Add to them the whole TSA circus as it existed already, the lack of service on many domestic carriers, delays, etc and you have a situation where traveling becomes less and less inviting.
 
EDICHC
Posts: 1545
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 9:38 pm

RE: Will Foreign Airlines Get Fed Up?

Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:23 am

I think it will have a detrimental effect on total passenger figures for US visitors. Let's face it entering the US even before recent events has hardly been 'user friendly'.

I avoid even transiting the US nowadays. Yet a few years ago I loved to visit the US. It's simply not worth the trouble anymore. Yes there are reasons for extra security but frankly recent measures are just plain silly, and only serve to make geniune visitors feel unwelcome. Remember you can only make a first impression once.

Land of the free? Doubtful...over-restricted more like.
Home of the brave? Home of the paranoid knee-jerk reactionary.
A300/319/320/346 ATR72 B722/732/3/4/5/6/8/742/4/752/762/3/772/3 BAC111 BAe146 C172 DHC1/6/8 HS121 MD80 PA28
 
ozglobal
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RE: Will Foreign Airlines Get Fed Up?

Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:31 pm

If US intelligence and international police work was worth its salt in combatting terrorist plots and if TSA and other security measures were based on this intelligence and a sound, methodical and long term risk management approach, I would gladly suffer the indignities they exact from me. But, having worked in Risk Management for a number of years, I know that the majority of TSA measures are knee jerk, make it up as you go, make 'em 'feel safe' BS. The only effective measures are the so called "secondary security" controls. I would rather we all were put through this, including the plastic explosives detection chamber, that the 'security theatre' we are currently playing at.

As it is, I am seriously considering routings via Canada for future trips to the US.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
CM767
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RE: Will Foreign Airlines Get Fed Up?

Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:50 pm



Quoting Elite (Reply 2):
The question is: Will PASSENGERS get fed up?

I will say yes. I plan to move a vacation to the US to a Latin destination next year.
But The Best Thing God Has Created Is A New Day
 
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legacyins
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RE: Will Foreign Airlines Get Fed Up?

Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:23 am

I flew from YVR-SFO today and six passengers missed the flight in YVR because they were held up in security. One carry on, no back packs,must carry your lap top in your hand or in a sleeve. It took me almost a full two hours from check in to gate. A lot of tempers flared and I for one, do not flying enjoyable anymore.
 
sflaflight
Posts: 494
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2005 12:33 pm

RE: Will Foreign Airlines Get Fed Up?

Sun Jan 03, 2010 3:04 pm



Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 20):

As it is, I am seriously considering routings via Canada for future trips to the US.

Why would you that? That just creates double hassle. Transiting Canada doesn't avoid dealing with US immigration/customs.
 
Hirnie
Posts: 465
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RE: Will Foreign Airlines Get Fed Up?

Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:55 pm



Quoting Elite (Reply 2):
The question is: Will PASSENGERS get fed up?

Yes, a lot allready are.

Friends of mine avoided the US last year on a RTW - trip. I try to avoid the US wherever I can. Not because of the country (it's really beautiful and there are a lot of nice and intrsting things to see), but because of all the sillyness you have to go through before entering the country. Travelling to the US reminds me to travelling to the former Soviet Union or the the former GDR.
These are very sad times, because I loved to visit the US in former times. I think my visit to NY in feb this year will be the last for a long time.
I'm not the only person thinking this way. I know a lot of people at work who think the same way I do.
 
Milesdependent
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Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2001 5:27 pm

RE: Will Foreign Airlines Get Fed Up?

Thu Jan 07, 2010 11:36 am



Quoting Hirnie (Reply 24):
I'm not the only person thinking this way. I know a lot of people at work who think the same way I do.

Agreed. I canned my trip to the USA for later in the year, and will go to Japan instead. I just don't want to deal with all that security nonsense. The USA is one of my favourite places, but I won't be going back anytime soon. A friend at work changed to go to Phuket instead of Hawaii for the same reasons. It's all very sad.
 
Nicoeddf
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RE: Will Foreign Airlines Get Fed Up?

Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:03 pm



Quoting Elite (Reply 2):
The question is: Will PASSENGERS get fed up?

Yes, they will. That won't hurt business travel, but certainly vacationeers, especially on shorter (city-) trips to the US.

But then again, when has the TSA done something useful to lessen the hassle of flying to the US?
I am pretty sure, tourism industry is crying in despair...
 
soon7x7
Posts: 2267
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RE: Will Foreign Airlines Get Fed Up?

Sat Jan 09, 2010 12:31 am

It's a tragedy that the pleasure of travelling worldwide has sucumbed to the nonsense that it has...The US had better get it's act together where profiling is concerned and stop worrying about hurting peoples feelings. To me all that interpalates into the threat of lawsuits which as usual brings us back to the bottom line, $$$. Money, over personal security and freedom to travel comfortably is an unacceptable trade off. I'd rather insult a couple of passengers that exhibit unusual behavior than restrict and hold hostage every other passenger on a flight. The passengers are not supposed to be the front line of security as they recently have been. TSA should re evaluate its role and decide to hand pick highly trained individuals from the law enforcement sector or those of military background rather than the jokers that currently hold these positions. Many have felony rap sheets...some don't earn enough to even own a vehicle to get them to their job and most obviously, given their carte blanche certificates to treat the flying public light garbage are not authorized to carry a weapon...they wouldn't know a terrorist if they had breakfast with them. Islamic radicals are the perpatrators here in the USA on flights and they are the ones that should be kept under the magnifying glass...they started it...if they don't like it then thay can curtail their cowardly behavior.
Shoe bombers, panty bombers, bunghole bombers...I mean what next...the line must be drawn in the sand. Either we go back to ships and trains or America, or change our attitude with this "political correctness lunacey"...all its doing is creating a terrorist target rich environment by bottle necking passengers at security checkpoints before they even get on the plane. I wonder if the TSA has vetted the taxi cab drivers perched outside the major International Terminals...I think not...half are probably not US citizens. Many are from nations the US has on its terrorist watch list. These drivers have front row seats to our crowded terminals...Has anyone heard of car bombs?...A terminal at LGA was bombed decades ago...I'm afraid to say this country will sustain another hit by radicals as they do their homework and are a patient type. We on the other hand just don't seem to have a grip on the scope of this threat yet. Just seems to be a great platform for the local poiticians to grand stand on...after something has happened. And by the way...Thank you Mr. President for finally admitting we are at war with Al Qaeda and admitting that the buck stops with you on this one. (Re December 25th panty bomber)...Now, some eight years after 9/11 perhaps we can get down to the business of not holding the Paying Passengers hostages and go after the real threats in a realworld way. It's not just an American issue, its a Global issue.  flamed 
 
BE77
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RE: Will Foreign Airlines Get Fed Up?

Sat Jan 09, 2010 5:51 pm

The people I work with regularly travel Canada to South America...and universally everyone has changed flights to avoid connections through the US, even though in many cases the travel requires one or more of an extra connection / ealier departure / later arrivals than it did a month ago.
So, the travel is still happening, but not on US flagged carriers any more. In this case, it's probably only 200 or 300 segments a month or so, but I imagine we're not the only outfit.
And I suppose that if things ever get sorted out, some will go back to the US transit, but, I think some others have discovered that BGI is less stressful than JFK for example...
Tower, Affirmitive, gear is down and welded
 
zkeoj
Posts: 1000
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 3:00 am

RE: Will Foreign Airlines Get Fed Up?

Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:33 am



Quoting Elite (Reply 2):
The question is: Will PASSENGERS get fed up?

As many stated above, I also think that passenger numbers will decrease. I know people who actively avoid visiting the USA, although they are interested in the country.

Quoting AusA380 (Reply 4):
I also think people who use to transit the US will seek alternatives.

And I am one of them! Having had an average of two trips to Europe from NZ in the past few years it didn't matter to me whether I transited in LAX, SFO, NRT, HKG, BKK, SIN... total travel time was almost the same no matter what transit point I used. But in recent years already I tried to avoid especially LAX and used SFO instead, or fly via Asia. Now, with the new rules I will avoid transit via LAX/SFO as much as possible. Makes me sad, really, since I love the US, have been there on holidays and business many times, and are still amazed by the sheer beauty. But at the moment, it is not attractive to me.
Having sad that, I'll go to OGG next month for business, and I dread the security/arrival part of it  Sad

Cheers
micha
 
soon7x7
Posts: 2267
Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 10:51 am

RE: Will Foreign Airlines Get Fed Up?

Sun Jan 10, 2010 3:30 pm

The shame of it is not the terrorists, ( although we could do without them), it's the lack of effective response from our brainiac bureaucrats...who needs terrorism when we have our own politicians that have seen to throw a baseball bat into the spokes of every aspect of what makes the US attractive to travelers...countries all over the world have had to deal with this issue for years if not decades, yet they seem to figure out and manage...just a new fact of life. I must travel a lot for my work and I'm at the end of my rope with all the knee jerking responses instead of someone here that can identify the problems and hit them head on...soon no one will be allowed to board a plane here in the US with anything in their hands...Everything will have to be checked...cabins sanitized, (not in the literal sense)...no magazines...no overheads...no lavs...drink, eat and s-it before you board your flight. that will allow the airlines to cut back on flight attendants, saving costs and fuel...etc, etc, etc...  hissyfit 

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