globalcabotage
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Signature Routes / Prestige Routes

Thu Aug 26, 2010 11:14 pm

As has been discussed on this forum, airlines tend to use flight 1 as their prestige / signature route (LO 1 WAW-ORD, UA 1 ORD-HNL), etc.

Sure LO 1 is a huge route and links the two biggest O&D markets for international traffic (between Poland and the US).

But what routes are still being flied simply for prestige? xxx-JFK, xxx-LHR? This is not to make a point between public and state run companies. But what routes are airlines willing to lose money on just to fly them?
 
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BasilFawlty
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RE: Signature Routes / Prestige Routes

Thu Aug 26, 2010 11:33 pm

Conviasa's CCS-DAM-IKA
'Every year donkeys and mules kill more people than plane crashes'
 
cedarjet
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RE: Signature Routes / Prestige Routes

Thu Aug 26, 2010 11:55 pm

BA to Bermuda. Not sure if HM Treasury make up the shortfall or BA do it for the love, but it doesn't make money. Incidentally it is virtually the only route at BA where there is no competition.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
EddieDude
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RE: Signature Routes / Prestige Routes

Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:34 am

AM uses 0001 for MEX-MAD. MX used 0001 for MEX-JFK.

As to which routes Mexican carriers fly solely based on prestige, I would focus only on AM now, as MX is pretty much done (as we knew it). I dunno whether AM's MEX-CDG is profitable. They offer daily service on 767ERs (mix of -200s and -300s) with AF's codeshare. One of the a.net recurring myths is that SkyTeam and particularly AF have constantly pressured AM to upgrade MEX-CDG to 77E. I dunno if it is true. Perhaps they don't do it because they would have trouble filling a 77E. Anyway, whereas MAD makes AM a lot of money, I don't know if the same can be said of CDG. If any, this would be AM's prestige route.

I also don't know what the deal is with SCL. AM also flies to SCL with a mix of 762ERs and 763ERs, but they fly less than daily. Now, they lost the LA codeshare, and that will make it even harder for AM. Many people insist that AM loses money at SCL but I guess that if the passenger service is not making them a lot of money, perhaps the cargo business is... both Mexico and Chile are major exports-oriented economies.

Interestingly, neither MEX-NRT nor MEX-PVG is flown solely on prestige grounds. NRT is a profitable station for AM and by the look of it, PVG ain't doin' bad.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
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Qatara340
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RE: Signature Routes / Prestige Routes

Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:38 am

QR 001 DOH-LHR
EK 001 DXB-LHR

EY001 AUH-FRA
لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله
 
mrskyguy
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RE: Signature Routes / Prestige Routes

Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:42 am

HAL1 KLAX-PHNL formerly B763, now A332
"The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee." -- Gunter's 2nd Law of Air
 
macsog6
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RE: Signature Routes / Prestige Routes

Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:45 am

AA 1 - 0900 JFK to LAX. But I imagine it makes money,
Sixty Plus Years of Flying! "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." - Saint Ex
 
as739x
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RE: Signature Routes / Prestige Routes

Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:57 am

Japan Airlines 1/2 NRT-SFO-NRT (soon to be Haneda)
Singapore Air 1/2 SIN-HKG-SFO-HKG-SFO
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
flyguy89
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RE: Signature Routes / Prestige Routes

Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:21 am

DL 001 is CVG-JFK-LHR
 
fly2yyz
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RE: Signature Routes / Prestige Routes

Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:23 am

KE 001 ICN-NRT-LAX
AC 001 YYZ-NRT
 
EASTERN
Posts: 61
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RE: Signature Routes / Prestige Routes

Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:30 am

US1 is PHX-ORD.
NW1 was LAX-NRT, IIRC.
P from NYC
 
directorguy
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RE: Signature Routes / Prestige Routes

Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:49 am

EK 1/2 is DXB-LHR
GF 1/2 is BAH-LHR
QR 1/2 is DOH-LHR

Clearly LHR is a flagship route for several major Mid-east carriers. Of course EK's 1/2 rotation to LHR is operated by the crown jewel, the A380.
 
Gemuser
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RE: Signature Routes / Prestige Routes

Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:50 am

QF1 is SYD-BKK-LHR
It makes money!

Gemuser
DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
 
UAEflyer
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RE: Signature Routes / Prestige Routes

Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:52 am

QF1 .. SYD-BKK-LHR
VS1 .. EWR-LHR
HA1 .. LAX-HNL
Big Balloon, Bigger than the Sun & Moon, Flying High in the Sky.
 
shaq
Posts: 312
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RE: Signature Routes / Prestige Routes

Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:09 am

CO1 IAH-HNL-GUM

Obviously makes money !
Studying hard, for flying right!
 
SCL767
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RE: Signature Routes / Prestige Routes

Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:56 am

AA1 JFK-LAX
AA2 LAX-JFK

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 3):
I also don't know what the deal is with SCL. AM also flies to SCL with a mix of 762ERs and 763ERs, but they fly less than daily. Now, they lost the LA codeshare, and that will make it even harder for AM. Many people insist that AM loses money at SCL but I guess that if the passenger service is not making them a lot of money, perhaps the cargo business is... both Mexico and Chile are major exports-oriented economies.

AM10/AM11 operates MEX-SCL-MEX 4x weekly (B763). AM now dedicates one of its B763s solely for the MEX-SCL-MEX route. AM operates both AM10/AM11 as red-eyes in order to increase LFs on the route.
 
EddieDude
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RE: Signature Routes / Prestige Routes

Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:32 am

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 15):
AM10/AM11 operates MEX-SCL-MEX 4x weekly (B763). AM now dedicates one of its B763s solely for the MEX-SCL-MEX route. AM operates both AM10/AM11 as red-eyes in order to increase LFs on the route.

Thanks for the info! The 762s are more useful to BCN and CDG because of range issues, so I guess it makes sense. Hope AM will be able to turn a profit with the new schedules.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
SCL767
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RE: Signature Routes / Prestige Routes

Fri Aug 27, 2010 4:12 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 16):
Thanks for the info! The 762s are more useful to BCN and CDG because of range issues, so I guess it makes sense. Hope AM will be able to turn a profit with the new schedules.

AM will soon increase capacity on the daily MEX-BOG-MEX route by deploying the B738 on the route. AM will most likely add MEX-CCS-MEX to its network soon.
 
ewrkid
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RE: Signature Routes / Prestige Routes

Fri Aug 27, 2010 4:31 am

Openskies(Don't know the code) 1- ORY-EWR
 
YXD172
Posts: 340
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RE: Signature Routes / Prestige Routes

Fri Aug 27, 2010 4:39 am

Surprised no one's mentioned it yet: BA's flight 1/2/3/4 LCY-SNN-JFK-LCY. Definitely a flagship route, even has a whole subfleet dedicated to it. Not sure if it's profitable yet, although popular opinion on the thread about it suggests that it is.
Radial engines don't leak oil, they are just marking their territory!
 
coopdogyo
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RE: Signature Routes / Prestige Routes

Fri Aug 27, 2010 4:44 am

AS 1/2 and 3/4 is SEA-DCA
 
qblue
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RE: Signature Routes / Prestige Routes

Fri Aug 27, 2010 4:54 am

Didn't AC inherited from CP air flight number 1? What was AC flight 1 from recent past.
 
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OA412
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RE: Signature Routes / Prestige Routes

Fri Aug 27, 2010 4:59 am

For both BA and AF, flight 001 were their Concorde flights from LHR-JFK and CDG-JFK respectively.
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
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Aeroflot777
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RE: Signature Routes / Prestige Routes

Fri Aug 27, 2010 5:05 am

Air New Zealand

NZ1 = LHR-LAX-AKL
NZ2 = AKL-LAX-LHR

Aeroflot777
 
sstsomeday
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RE: Signature Routes / Prestige Routes

Fri Aug 27, 2010 5:26 am

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 2):
BA to Bermuda. Not sure if HM Treasury make up the shortfall or BA do it for the love, but it doesn't make money. Incidentally it is virtually the only route at BA where there is no competition.

Interesting that it wouldn't make money with no competition.

One source: "Bermuda is the oldest and most populous remaining British overseas territory... Bermuda has an affluent economy, with finance as its largest sector followed by tourism, giving it the world's highest GDP per capita in 2005. It has a subtropical climate.. Bermuda's per capita income is approximately 50% higher than that of the United States."

You'd think there would be healthy travel between the two Islands, in all classes... I have difficulty BA would keep the route if it was loss making, without government support for it, in this cut-throat airline climate. Can ANY airline (that isn't a government supported institution from some 3rd World country) afford a PRESTIGE route these days that is not profitable?
I come in peace
 
SR4ever
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RE: Signature Routes / Prestige Routes

Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:39 am

Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 24):
Can ANY airline (that isn't a government supported institution from some 3rd World country) afford a PRESTIGE route these days that is not profitable?

It would be interesting to have a detailed breakdown of short/medium-haul routes operated by Legacies in Europe...

[Edited 2010-08-27 01:54:56]
 
je89_w
Crew
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RE: Signature Routes / Prestige Routes

Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:19 am

Quite funny to think that while flight 1/flight 2 operate the prestige routes for most airlines, China Airlines no longer has CI1/CI2 as of March 2010. It used to operate TPE-HNL-TPE. Does anyone know if this is a temporary or permanent suspension?

[Edited 2010-08-27 02:21:01]
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Signature Routes / Prestige Routes

Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:30 am

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 23):
NZ1 = LHR-LAX-AKL

It may not be the most prestigious "Flight 1" in the world , but it must surely be the longest .

I always thought that it was a shame that NZ did not cheat with their flight numbers and make AKL-HKG-LHR flight 1 as well so that the routing would be AKL-HKG-LHR-LAX-AKL for NZ1 and the reverse for NZ2 ( I admit that it would be cheating since it would not be the same aircraft the whole way around the world )
 
tharanga
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RE: Signature Routes / Prestige Routes

Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:34 am

I think the prototypical money losing prestige route was Bangladesh BG to JFK, from DAC via various places. On 20 year old DC-10s.

What the route numbers were, I don't know.

Probably there are many other airlines who overextended themselves, just to say they get to JFK.

[Edited 2010-08-27 03:35:31]
 
scandinavian
Posts: 258
Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2000 2:19 am

RE: Signature Routes / Prestige Routes

Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:42 am

SK001 LLA-ARN, maybe not the worst most prestigious "number 1".  
"He was a wise man who invented beer"-Platon
 
rajrs
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2007 8:06 pm

RE: Signature Routes / Prestige Routes

Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:11 am

AI 101 DEL-JFK
AI 141 - BOM-JFK
 
airbazar
Posts: 7122
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: Signature Routes / Prestige Routes

Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:44 pm

Quoting mrskyguy (Reply 5):
HAL1 KLAX-PHNL formerly B763, now A332
Quoting as739x (Reply 7):
Japan Airlines 1/2 NRT-SFO-NRT (soon to be Haneda)
Singapore Air 1/2 SIN-HKG-SFO-HKG-SFO
Quoting Fly2YYZ (Reply 9):
KE 001 ICN-NRT-LAX
AC 001 YYZ-NRT
Quoting directorguy (Reply 11):
EK 1/2 is DXB-LHR
GF 1/2 is BAH-LHR
QR 1/2 is DOH-LHR
Quoting uaeflyer (Reply 13):
QF1 .. SYD-BKK-LHR
VS1 .. EWR-LHR
HA1 .. LAX-HNL

etc, etc, etc

Did you guys read the OP question?

Quoting GlobalCabotage (Thread starter):
But what routes are still being flied simply for prestige? [...] But what routes are airlines willing to lose money on just to fly them?

Are you seriously suggesting that all the routes above lose money?
 
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Qatara340
Posts: 1605
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RE: Signature Routes / Prestige Routes

Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:50 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 31):
Are you seriously suggesting that all the routes above lose money?

No he is asking what routes if any are loosing money and cannot be dropped for the sake of prestiege?

Quoting GlobalCabotage (Thread starter):
But what routes are still being flied simply for prestige? xxx-JFK, xxx-LHR? This is not to make a point between public and state run companies. But what routes are airlines willing to lose money on just to fly them?
لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله
 
AirNiugini
Posts: 276
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RE: Signature Routes / Prestige Routes

Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:44 pm

Air Niugini,

PX1 Port Moresby to Sydney
PX2 Sydney to Port Moresby


Also, does anyone know how long QF1 SYD - BKK - LHR has operated as QF1?

I'd be interested to see if the flagship routes ID'd at Flight 1 and 2 stay the same or change over time...
Its time to fly!
 
FlySSC
Posts: 5192
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 1:38 am

RE: Signature Routes / Prestige Routes

Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:02 pm

Quoting OA412 (Reply 22):
For both BA and AF, flight 001 were their Concorde flights from LHR-JFK and CDG-JFK respectively.

  

Concorde AF 001 was JFK-CDG.

CDG-JFK was Concorde AF 002.
 
tharanga
Posts: 427
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RE: Signature Routes / Prestige Routes

Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:07 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 31):

Did you guys read the OP question?

Yeah, typical a-net.

I think we're looking for unprofitable prestige routes, not just a list of everybody's flight 001.

I wonder about Saudi's flight to IAD. Would that count? Then again, Saudi's entire operation isn't really run with commercial success in mind, is it?

Before they finally gave up, some of the eastern european flights to JFK probably count as well.
 
Tobias2702
Posts: 286
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2008 6:49 pm

RE: Signature Routes / Prestige Routes

Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:21 pm

Quoting GlobalCabotage (Thread starter):
But what routes are still being flied simply for prestige?

"Prestige over money" is an attitude that can be found quite often with state-owned airlines.

The domestic network of Conviasa comes to mind. Also, I just cannot imagine their CCS-DAM-IKA flight is all-too profitable.

With those ancient aircraft, I don't think any of Air Koryo's routes is profitable.
PA, AF, UK, BA, AB, DL, LH, FR, BD, A3, EZY, DY //// A319/320/346, B733/735/73G/738/744/763, AT4, 146, CR2, DH4
 
EricR
Posts: 1223
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2010 4:15 pm

RE: Signature Routes / Prestige Routes

Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:42 pm

Quoting GlobalCabotage (Thread starter):
But what routes are still being flied simply for prestige? xxx-JFK, xxx-LHR? This is not to make a point between public and state run companies. But what routes are airlines willing to lose money on just to fly them?

I think DL's LAX-SYD is partially a prestige route. From a marketing standpoint, they can say they fly to all 6 habitable continents.

I highly doubt this is a profitable route with the competition between LAX-SYD. However, it provides marketing benefits to the airline's overall ops.

I would be very interested to know how they are doing on this route (not loads, nor yields, but net profit). Due to the marketing benefits, I'm sure they will allow the route to take a larger loss (assuming they are losing money) than they would on other long haul routes.

[Edited 2010-08-27 08:52:14]
 
GoMEA
Posts: 162
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 5:21 am

RE: Signature Routes / Prestige Routes

Fri Aug 27, 2010 4:20 pm

MEA 211 BEY-PAR
MEA 212 PAR-CDG

The route was flown in 707s starting the 60's, 747s in the 70's, then A310 & A330.

The second daily flight used A320/A321, upgraded to A332 in 2008.

On top of AF's 565/566 daily heavy A310, A330, A340 and now B77W. (btw, one of AF's Top5 money making route)

Next step will be the A380 in the summer!

Cheers
MEA raising the Cedar far up in the sky
 
747fan
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RE: Signature Routes / Prestige Routes

Fri Aug 27, 2010 5:19 pm

Quoting tharanga (Reply 35):
Before they finally gave up, some of the eastern european flights to JFK probably count as well.

Don't recall the flight #'s but CSA Czech (PRG) & Malev Hungarian (BUD) both served JFK for years & both pulled out within the last year or 2 when the economy hit the tank. It was documented that both lost money, or at least they did towards the end. Those 2 carriers also served YUL/YYZ before they canned their longhaul flying. I believe Tarom (Bucharest) was another example. Of course all of these routes listed are now served by DL (not all are year-round though). Olympic dropped JFK & the rest of their longhaul network last year but I think this was more because of re-structuring - I wouldn't be surprised to see them return (perhaps with A330's) eventually.
An eastern European route to JFK that I currently question is Uzbekistan Airways' service (Tashkent-Riga-JFK), that seems like its mainly flown for prestige (Uzbekistan's only LH flight?) rather than profit although I could be wrong.
Finally there's Royal Air Maroc. While CMN-JFK (and YUL/YYZ for that matter) is probably a decent market I do question it being flown daily (some days are twice daily) as from what I've seen these flights don't attract very high loads. I know loads don't always tell the story but I can't see those flights as getting good yields.
 
EL-AL
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Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2001 8:29 am

RE: Signature Routes / Prestige Routes

Fri Aug 27, 2010 5:19 pm

LY001 is the night flight from Tel Aviv to NYC-JFK, which makes money - it has more demand then the morning flight (LY007). Flight operates with B744 or B772, operated in the past by B742, B704 & Bristol Britannia.
every day is a good day to fly
 
jetblue777
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Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:13 pm

RE: Signature Routes / Prestige Routes

Fri Aug 27, 2010 5:29 pm

Quoting EASTERN (Reply 10):
NW1 was LAX-NRT, IIRC.

Wasn't NW 1/2 NRT-MNL-NRT?
It's a cultural thing.
 
skoker
Posts: 279
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 5:49 am

RE: Signature Routes / Prestige Routes

Fri Aug 27, 2010 6:02 pm

B6's flight 1 is BUF-JFK-FLL, while BUF-JFK isn't quite a signature route, it was one of B6's first.
 
timberwolf24
Posts: 455
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2001 8:38 am

RE: Signature Routes / Prestige Routes

Fri Aug 27, 2010 6:25 pm

Quoting JetBlue777 (Reply 41):
NW1 was LAX-NRT, IIRC.

Wasn't NW 1/2 NRT-MNL-NRT?

At one time it was NW1/2 BOS-ORD-NRT-MNL-NRT-ORD-BOS. There was an COG in Chicago.
Living in LA, ORD/MDW will always be home!
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Signature Routes / Prestige Routes

Fri Aug 27, 2010 7:01 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 31):
Did you guys read the OP question?

Did you read his entire post ? There are two parts to his post , in the first part he talks about the use of flight numbers 1/2 for prestige flights and in the second part he asks about what flights are operated purely for prestige , Some people are responding to the first part of his post , some are responding to the second part of his post . Both types of reply are on topic , just on different parts of the same topic . I notice that the OP himself has not complained about anyones responses in this thread so presumably he does not find them off topic .

As for the second part of his topc , flights operated solely for prestige , there have long been rumours that the MH service KUL-JNB-CPT-EZE( which is neither a flight 1 nor a flight 2 ) is a loss maker operated solely for membership in the 'six continent club'

[Edited 2010-08-27 12:04:18]
 
airbazar
Posts: 7122
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: Signature Routes / Prestige Routes

Fri Aug 27, 2010 7:25 pm

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 44):
Did you read his entire post ? There are two parts to his post , in the first part he talks about the use of flight numbers 1/2 for prestige flights and in the second part he asks about what flights are operated purely for prestige , Some people are responding to the first part of his post , some are responding to the second part of his post .

The first part was not a question. I don't see a question mark. It's ok to admit that you mis-read someone's post. There's no shame in it  
 
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Aeroflot777
Posts: 3011
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:19 pm

RE: Signature Routes / Prestige Routes

Fri Aug 27, 2010 7:43 pm

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 27):

I always thought that it was a shame that NZ did not cheat with their flight numbers and make AKL-HKG-LHR flight 1 as well so that the routing would be AKL-HKG-LHR-LAX-AKL for NZ1 and the reverse for NZ2 ( I admit that it would be cheating since it would not be the same aircraft the whole way around the world )

That would be so amazing. Great routing!

You are right about it being long though! Just flew AKL-LAX on NZ1 earlier this weeks. I couldn't imagine boarding the same a/c for another 11 hour trek to LHR. Glad I got off in LAX  

Aeroflot777
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Signature Routes / Prestige Routes

Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:05 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 45):
first part was not a question. I don't see a question mark. It's ok to admit that you mis-read someone's post. There's no shame in it




I did not misread the OPs post , and I never said that the first part was a question , I said that it was part of his post and that I was responding to that part of the post . I am not aware of any forum rules which state that replies to a post can only be in the form of answers to a question posed at the end of a post . The OP does not seem to have a problem with people responding to either part of his post , but no doubt you have your own reasons for choosing to have a problem with it on his behalf . In any event , if you believe a post is off topic rather than attacking the poster all you need to do is hit the "Suggest Deletion" button and report it to the Mods , and leave it up them to decide whether the post is on topic or off topic .

Anyway , back on topic - both parts of it  

Flights 1/2 :

Unless I have missed a post somewhere I am surprised that no one has mentioned the very prestigious old PA 1 / PA2 around the Northern Hemisphere flights.

routes operated solely for prestige :

I have heard that the UM flight HRE-SIN-BJS is supposedly operated only for prestige/political reasons and apparently has horrific load factors in spite of the levels of Chinese investment in Africa at the moment .

There is a regular poster in the Aussie/NZ threads who insists that NZs AKL-BJS and AKL-PVG flights are operated solely for prestige and that they would apparently lose vast amounts of money if it were not for some shady back room deal which he seems privy to .

[Edited 2010-08-27 13:28:51]
 
KingAir200
Posts: 668
Joined: Sun May 28, 2006 1:37 pm

RE: Signature Routes / Prestige Routes

Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:14 pm

Quoting JetBlue777 (Reply 41):
Wasn't NW 1/2 NRT-MNL-NRT?

NW1 was LAX-NRT-MNL, NW2 was MNL-NRT-LAX.

[Edited 2010-08-27 13:51:14]
 
bobnwa
Posts: 4485
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2000 12:10 am

RE: Signature Routes / Prestige Routes

Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:17 pm

Quoting EricR (Reply 37):
I think DL's LAX-SYD is partially a prestige route. From a marketing standpoint, they can say they fly to all 6 habitable continents.




I really doubt that DL is making one dollar in incremental revenue because someone thinks LAX-SYD is a prestige route. Do you really imagine that Delta thinks because that they fly to all six continents, it adds one additional passenger? That is an A. net marketing concept.

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