keesje
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Give Me An A340-300 Over A Twin Any Day

Mon Dec 27, 2010 4:23 pm

I've to admit, I have an irrational, neglectible preference for the A340-300 above oceans and cold lonely places.

It's so quiet, no middle seats in business, less in economy and I know how reliable the CFM56s proved during high cycle, bird eating, decades long operations from hot, sandy runways.

Give me 4 of those above the North Poole or Siberia   any day.


View Large View Medium
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Photo © Eric Brons



It might be a little slower, but I don't give hoot about that & the ticket don't seem more expensive.

I wish you all a happy 2011 !

Mod edit: Please do not embed photos from the database in posts. Please use the thumbnail feature.

[Edited 2010-12-27 11:21:29 by srbmod]
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
delimit
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RE: Give Me An A340-300 Over A Twin Any Day

Mon Dec 27, 2010 4:31 pm

On that note, I am posting this while sitting very comfortably on an aisle in Economy on a 763 on my way to ATL.

As someone who usually argues in favor of frequency and right-sizing capacity...god DAMN it's nice to be on a wide body on a short, domestic flight. : )
 
kl911
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RE: Give Me An A340-300 Over A Twin Any Day

Mon Dec 27, 2010 4:37 pm

Quoting keesje (Thread starter):
Give me 4 of those above the North Poole or Siberia any day.

Oh yes, I agree!! Although it doesnt matter if its an A343, 744, or IL96 for instance. I know it's between the ears, but even as an airplane lover, frequent flyer, and ex airline staffmember, i prefer 4 over 2 engines flying over water and ice.

Happy 2011 to you too

KL911
 
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yyz717
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RE: Give Me An A340-300 Over A Twin Any Day

Mon Dec 27, 2010 4:39 pm

The number crunchers at every single airline in the world would disagree with you....that's why there are no 343's on order. The aircraft is not (the most) efficient.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
kl911
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RE: Give Me An A340-300 Over A Twin Any Day

Mon Dec 27, 2010 4:41 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 4):
The aircraft is not (the most) efficient.
Quoting keesje (Thread starter):
It might be a little slower, but I don't give hoot about that & the ticket don't seem more expensive.

That's what he said, it's about safety, or the feeling it's safer anyway.
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: Give Me An A340-300 Over A Twin Any Day

Mon Dec 27, 2010 4:46 pm

I'm quite happy with either two or four engines over water. Back in the day, three were great too. But for four engines, as long as we're talking about older models, I like them on a 747-400. Still king of the skies as far as I'm concerned.  

Jim
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longhauler
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RE: Give Me An A340-300 Over A Twin Any Day

Mon Dec 27, 2010 4:58 pm

Quoting keesje (Thread starter):
It might be a little slower,


It is no slower than any other wide body Airbus. Slower to climb, but a passenger wouldn't know that ... or care for that matter.

Quoting kl911 (Reply 5):
That's what he said, it's about safety, or the feeling it's safer anyway.


Just a feeling, that is all. The A340 is no safer on long trips than anything else flying over the poles. One could almost argue that with twice as many engines, there is double the chance of engine failures, with its associated diversions and concerns.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
9v-svc
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RE: Give Me An A340-300 Over A Twin Any Day

Mon Dec 27, 2010 5:04 pm

I feel safer as well especially flying long haul on 4 engine jets: A340, A380 and Boeing 747-400 are my preference over my favorite A330 and Boeing 777.
Airliners is the wings of my life.
 
keesje
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RE: Give Me An A340-300 Over A Twin Any Day

Mon Dec 27, 2010 5:21 pm

Of course it's irrational, everything meets the safety requirements.

That said, give me an A343 engine failure above Bering Sea above a twin engine failure any day.



I won't discuss double engine failures in this respect.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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longhauler
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RE: Give Me An A340-300 Over A Twin Any Day

Mon Dec 27, 2010 5:30 pm

Quoting keesje (Reply 9):
Of course it's irrational, everything meets the safety requirements.


I suppose if passengers bought tickets on "gut feeling" over price, airlines would be forced to fly more four engined aircraft ... but they don't, so they don't!

I used to love the A340-300 as well. A very comfortable economy cabin, and whisper quiet engines. But Management didn't listen to me when it came time to buying airplanes ...  

That being said though, I guess you have to consider the numbers. Since the start of jet transport aircraft there never has been more than one engine fail on an airframe at one time, that was not caused by such an external factor that it would not have happened on a twin.

The only possible exception might be the Eastern L1011 over the Bahamas with the incorrectly installed O-Rings. When they landed back in MIA, one one was left turning. (with no oil). Had that been a twin, and the two not running were the only two mounted, then the outcome would be very different! That being said though, had they been in a twin, and they were closer to NAS when the problems arose, they would have been bound to land in NAS and not return to MIA.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
CFBFrame
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RE: Give Me An A340-300 Over A Twin Any Day

Mon Dec 27, 2010 5:32 pm

I guess you really enjoy the opportunity to get on a DC-8 or a 720, 707, or any the Convairs as well.

Quoting keesje (Thread starter):
Give me 4 of those above the North Poole or Siberia


I too wish you and all on here a Happy New Year as well!!! I look forward to a 2011 with more of your posts longing for a time long gone. For me, it was never an A340-300 that made my day. It was the DC-8, those big comfortable seats with the lights in the headrest. The opportunity to look out the window and watch the flaps on landing will aways hold a dear place in my heart. Oh those were the days, every seat outside of first class was business class and who cared about a middle seat. The silverware was real, the food divine, and air travel was something to dress up for!!! To make things even more enjoyable for you 4 engine lovers, my brother has a first on NW's first Boeing jet across the Pacific!! My brother was the first person to throw up in the aisle of the brand new a/c!!! Fun times were had by all on that flight.
 
thediplomat
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RE: Give Me An A340-300 Over A Twin Any Day

Mon Dec 27, 2010 5:38 pm

Interestingly - My26 year old Brother in law said yesterday that he flew from DUB to JFK with DL three weeks ago - and was really afraid because the aircraft (a 767) had only two engines.
 
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hOMSaR
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RE: Give Me An A340-300 Over A Twin Any Day

Mon Dec 27, 2010 5:41 pm

Two engines? Four engines?

Split the difference, and give me three!
The plural of Airbus is Airbuses. Airbii is not a word, and doesn't even make sense.
There is no 787-800, nor 787-900 or 747-800. It's 787-8, 787-9, and 747-8.
A321neoLR is also unnecessary. It's simply A321LR.
 
AA737-823
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RE: Give Me An A340-300 Over A Twin Any Day

Mon Dec 27, 2010 5:51 pm

Quoting CFBFrame (Reply 11):
I guess you really enjoy the opportunity to get on a DC-8 or a 720, 707, or any the Convairs as well.

Wouldn't we all???

Anyhow, while I prefer the 744 to the 343, I do in any regard prefer 4 engines to 2... and I'm an airline mechanic! And before you say it, it isn't just about job security, either!

Quoting keesje (Thread starter):
Give me 4 of those above the North Poole

About that... where is this poole? And is it a heated poole? I'd love a dip in a heated poole these days...

Quoting longhauler (Reply 10):
The only possible exception might be the Eastern L1011 over the Bahamas with the incorrectly installed O-Rings. When they landed back in MIA, one one was left turning. (with no oil). Had that been a twin, and the two not running were the only two mounted, then the outcome would be very different! That being said though, had they been in a twin, and they were closer to NAS when the problems arose, they would have been bound to land in NAS and not return to MIA.

We can't really make this argument from this perspective; regardless of the number of engines installed, all of the O-rings were obviously done by either the same individual, or a group of equally misinformed individuals. Consequently, it's most reasonable to expect that ALL engines would have failed at roughly the same moment, be they 1 or 6 in number.
Further, the only reason that #2 was turning was that they'd shut it down earlier, and it still had some life left in it.
 
BDABOY
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RE: Give Me An A340-300 Over A Twin Any Day

Mon Dec 27, 2010 5:55 pm

I feel plenty safe on two engines flying over the ocean. Living in Bermuda, 600 miles out in the ocean from anywhere, it's that or be scared of flying!!! The only 4 engine aircraft we get here any more are diversions or pit-stops.

Having said that, I love 4 engines purely from an aesthetic and nostalgic standpoint. I kinda grew up with the 747, and still get excited just seeing them. One of the few modern planes I've yet to fly on is the A340-30o, and I'm very much looking forward to the day I do.
 
Type-Rated
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RE: Give Me An A340-300 Over A Twin Any Day

Mon Dec 27, 2010 5:57 pm

Love that photo of the LH over Siberia.
It reminds me of an old Swissair poster I used to have. It was a photo of the engines of a DC8 taken from a window over the Alps.
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
 
dl767captain
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RE: Give Me An A340-300 Over A Twin Any Day

Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:01 pm

Quoting delimit (Reply 1):

I couldn't agree more. I always try and find my SAN-ATL-SAN flight on a 767 on DL. I'd rather have 3 flights a day instead of 6 or 7 if they were all widebodies.
 
TurkishWings
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RE: Give Me An A340-300 Over A Twin Any Day

Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:11 pm

Quoting keesje (Thread starter):
Give me 4 of those above the North Poole or Siberia any day.

I change my desktop at work every week and I always use a photo from A.net.. They get a lot of attention from my colleagues... I just used this picture last night... Funny coincidence  
Coffee - Tea or Me?
 
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RE: Give Me An A340-300 Over A Twin Any Day

Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:13 pm

I dont give a monkeys about the twin vs quad argument and I know I would gladly fly a twin over the Pole or Pacific without a second thought - because I have. Frankly I'd prefer to be on a Cathay or United twin transPac than a China Airlines or Air China quad! The only thing that makes me nervous like that is airline MX reputation.

AVOD, a good MX/safety reputation, free booze and good service are my choice points if there is a choice of carriers - (I'll take a BA or AF 777 over a DL A330 any day for example) I'm a mid-tier member of two of the three of the big airline alliances and all three of the Gulf majors so generally its all those things and then aircraft choice - and generally, once the amenity/safety/service thing has been sorted out, I have a preference. Its all about the big Airbus four holers. Best of the lot is the A380.

The best thing about it is the quiet cabin and the smooooooth ride. Those things fly like they are rails. For someone who spends the majority of his time flying in the cheap seats, and who is able to sleep on planes, you really notice the audible difference over a twin or a 747.

Someone told me once that EK have installed white noise generators in the crew rest areas of their A380s because they crew were unable to sleep because of the noise of the cabin pax, which is not normally a problem on anything else because the plane noise drowns it out.

I'll never forget my first A380 trip. Chatting to a seat-mate at the window seat on upper deck of 9V-SKC at LHR, and was amazed to see us making our way to the runway. Didnt even feel us pushback, and never even heard the start-up. And having tried both, I can tell you the GP7000 is even quieter. Full takeoff thrust just sounds like an oven extractor fan on full in the same room. Its incredible.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Give Me An A340-300 Over A Twin Any Day

Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:21 pm

A brilliant thread starter by Keesje! Incorporate both the twin vs. quad and B vs. A battles into one thread.   

I'm from Seattle. So my sentimental preferences will always be with Boeing. But I have to say the A330 and A340 are special, just so well proportioned, with one of the most beautiful wings ever put on an airliner.

I happened to be watching last night as a *very* skilled tug driver pushed a LH A346 backward out of the alley between T4 and TBIT at LAX. That bird is monumental and magnificent, and had quite a presence even among the string of 744s and 77Ws at TBIT. I can't wait for my chance to fly on one.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Give Me An A340-300 Over A Twin Any Day

Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:23 pm

Quoting keesje (Thread starter):
Give me 4 of those above the North Poole
Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 14):
About that... where is this poole? And is it a heated poole? I'd love a dip in a heated poole these days...

  

Quoting keesje (Reply 9):
That said, give me an A343 engine failure above Bering Sea above a twin engine failure any day

Wouldn't you be more comfortable with a 4 holer that can get into the air, like the B-742/3/4/8, A-345/6, A-388, or even an Iran Air B-707?

BTW, a twin that looses an engine over the Baring Sea still has one more running.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 10):
Since the start of jet transport aircraft there never has been more than one engine fail on an airframe at one time, that was not caused by such an external factor that it would not have happened on a twin.

What about the UA DC-8 that ran itself out of gas over Portland, OR (1978?)? If that was a twin, it would have had more fuel left as it would not have burned so much.

As far as a 4 engine over a 2 engine airplane crash, your chances of survival are about the same.

Happy new year to all, and I wish all of you a productive 2011, including Airbus and Boeing.
 
cbphoto
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RE: Give Me An A340-300 Over A Twin Any Day

Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:27 pm

For all of you 4 engine fans, just remember that with 4 engines, you have twice as many chances of having an engine failure or major engine related event  
ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
 
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RE: Give Me An A340-300 Over A Twin Any Day

Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:38 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 20):
But I have to say the A330 and A340 are special, just so well proportioned, with one of the most beautiful wings ever put on an airliner.

I happened to be watching last night as a *very* skilled tug driver pushed a LH A346 backward out of the alley between T4 and TBIT at LAX. That bird is monumental and magnificent, and had quite a presence even among the string of 744s and 77Ws at TBIT. I can't wait for my chance to fly on one.


Though I like flying on every type of airliner, the A330 and even more the A340, especially the A345/A346 are very special to me. If I had to choose between the the B77W and the A346, I would go for the A346 because it is more quiet and I have a soft spot for 4-holers. But I do not feel more unsafe on a twin for that matter.  .

Of course nothing beats the flight experience on the A380, for me the benchmark in flying from a passenger point of view.  .
 
affirmative
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RE: Give Me An A340-300 Over A Twin Any Day

Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:41 pm

If I could choose I would easily fly only 330s and 340s. The quietest cabin in the sky and with the 8 abrest seating one of the most comfortable in economy. I've flown my fair share of T7s and even though I like the plane in terms of looks and the technical achievements made with the T7 and the 77W in particular the 340 and 330 has a very special place in my heart. And the 10 abrest in the T7 is extremely uncomfortable in my book, I know it's not a huge difference but it's a feeling. Apart from the 340s and 330s the best ride I in my book is the upper deck of a 747, I had a chance to do a trip with the CDG-BOS leg on the upper deck in econ and the return in business on the lower deck and I'd actually prefer the upstairs econ, but the food and the service was better in business..  

Cheers
I love the smell of Jet-A1 in the morning...
 
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Stitch
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RE: Give Me An A340-300 Over A Twin Any Day

Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:50 pm

I'd take an A340 over an A330, but a 777 over both for the roomier cabin. Yes, it's louder, but I don't fly for the quiet.  
 
cahmc85
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RE: Give Me An A340-300 Over A Twin Any Day

Mon Dec 27, 2010 8:18 pm

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 22):
Though I like flying on every type of airliner, the A330 and even more the A340, especially the A345/A346 are very special to me. If I had to choose between the the B77W and the A346, I would go for the A346 because it is more quiet and I have a soft spot for 4-holers. But I do not feel more unsafe on a twin for that matter.

I could not agree more. You're absolutely right! Especially the A345/A346. Those are really fantastic airplanes.

[Edited 2010-12-27 12:23:40]
 
keesje
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RE: Give Me An A340-300 Over A Twin Any Day

Mon Dec 27, 2010 8:25 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 19):

A brilliant thread starter by Keesje! Incorporate both the twin vs. quad and B vs. A battles into one thread.

No No, I like to fly twins too. It's just that above some places, I prefer A343s.

Because the seating is good, they have 4 CFM56s and they are silent.

Other quads with engines as proven as reliable, seating configurations as good and noise levels as low have not being experienced by me yet.

Love the smoky old jets though. Only flew F28, 727, BAC1-11 and Tu-154, but no doubt the 707 and DC8 were good too (specially the Super Seventies   ).

Anyway give me a A343 over an A333 over Frans Jozefland any day.

"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
nomadd22
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RE: Give Me An A340-300 Over A Twin Any Day

Mon Dec 27, 2010 8:37 pm

You always hear that anything that would probably take out both engines on a twin would take out all four on a quad. I'm a little wary of that myself, having been on a USCG C-130 in 83 that lost two engines for unrelated reasons. The recent unauthorized swim in the Hudson by a certain 320 also puts that in doubt.
And the number of engines has little to do with running out of gas. You take as much fuel as you need. In fact, a 4 holer would probably do better since it would be closer to having optimum thrust with 75% of it's ability intact.

[Edited 2010-12-27 12:40:58]
Anon
 
747400sp
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RE: Give Me An A340-300 Over A Twin Any Day

Tue Dec 28, 2010 11:51 pm

Quoting cahmc85 (Reply 25):
I could not agree more. You're absolutely right! Especially the A345/A346. Those are really fantastic airplanes.



I like the A345/6 also, they have four engines like a DC-8, but their body is base on the A300 with A300 size engines. It like a hybrid of two classic jets for a modern age.


Now I thought that A345/6, did not sound like much on take off, until I saw the A345 used for TG LAX-BKK route, take off a few times while visiting home. Yes, that A345 takes off with a lot power and more noise than you think an A340 can make.
 
dc9northwest
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RE: Give Me An A340-300 Over A Twin Any Day

Wed Dec 29, 2010 12:24 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 6):

It is no slower than any other wide body Airbus. Slower to climb, but a passenger wouldn't know that ... or care for that matter.

Yes, well, not unless the A340 climbs so slowly it's still on the ground when it leaves the runway...   I remember a couple of A340-300 flights in summer where *minutes* seemed to pass before we took off. It was so smooth someone actually stood up during take-off. No really, that actually happened.

Anyway, two things:
1. Long live the 2-X-2 configurations!
2. Safety-wise, I don't care what plane I'm on. I'm pretty confident it won't fall apart in mid-air.
 
warren747sp
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RE: Give Me An A340-300 Over A Twin Any Day

Sat Jan 01, 2011 1:03 am

Yea. But we have to be able to get off the ground first confidently. Feel safe in an underpowered glider, I don't think so unless u expereienced take off say from JNB on one of these and a T7. Day and night.
747SP
 
KingFriday013
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RE: Give Me An A340-300 Over A Twin Any Day

Sat Jan 01, 2011 5:31 pm

Quoting keesje (Thread starter):
I know how reliable the CFM56s proved during ... bird eating...

CFM56s and birds?

http://www.cargolaw.com/images/disaster2009.water.land36.jpg

I'm a huge fan of the CFM56s, but I'm assuming you aren't referring to these, right?  

-J.
Tho' I've belted you an' flayed you, By the livin' Gawd that made you, You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din!
 
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Aesma
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RE: Give Me An A340-300 Over A Twin Any Day

Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:24 am

Quoting warren747sp (Reply 30):
Yea. But we have to be able to get off the ground first confidently. Feel safe in an underpowered glider, I don't think so unless u experienced take off say from JNB on one of these and a T7. Day and night.

Well, the T7 has to take off half empty in case of an engine failure at that hot and high airport so that helps !
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Superfly
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RE: Give Me An A340-300 Over A Twin Any Day

Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:32 am

Quoting keesje (Thread starter):

I'm with you keesje but I like all 4-engine aircraft over twins.

I make it a point to avoid the twins and get a 747, A380, A340 and even an IL-96 when possible.
Bring back the Concorde
 
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RE: Give Me An A340-300 Over A Twin Any Day

Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:38 am

Personally, I'd rather fly on a 777 over an A343. It's bigger, and better looking both inside and out. I have flown a 77W transpacific and I felt completely safe. Fear of twins is indeed irrational, IMO ...

Having said that, I'd gladly take a 744. I would choose a 744 over a 777, but a 777 over anything else, be it A340 or A380.
Boeing 777 fanboy

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