brahmin
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UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emirates

Wed Dec 29, 2010 6:23 am

According to Times of India. Eagerly waiting to see what will happen next. Who needs whom more?
 
sebring
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Wed Dec 29, 2010 6:32 am

Nothing will happen next.

The fee the embassy charges is not what the airlines charge

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ns-steep-visa-fees/article1851142/

[Edited 2010-12-28 22:33:22]
 
hoons90
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Wed Dec 29, 2010 6:35 am

Guess where I won't be going for the foreseeable future. I have strong doubts that this measure will do the UAE any good whatsoever. This will, more or less, eliminate virtually all Canadian tourist activity in the UAE. I don't see that many tourists paying $1000 for a visa alone.

All this over landing rights. How pathetic!
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blrsea
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Wed Dec 29, 2010 6:39 am

It is ridiculous the way UAE government is behaving. The best thing for Canada to do is to do the same to UAE citizens visiting Canada.

However, there does appear to be some confusion, as the airlines can get the same visa for $83, compared to the $1000 posted on UAE embassy website.
 
kaitak
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Wed Dec 29, 2010 7:41 am

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 2):
This will, more or less, eliminate virtually all Canadian tourist activity in the UAE. I don't see that many tourists paying $1000 for a visa alone.

All this over landing rights. How pathetic!

Quite right - and how stupid too; after all, this is going to have a significant impact on the demand for flights (although I'm guessing the vast majority are connecting pax anyway), which will totally undermine the UAE's argument for more flights; talking about shooting yourself in the foot.

Quoting blrsea (Reply 3):
However, there does appear to be some confusion, as the airlines can get the same visa for $83, compared to the $1000 posted on UAE embassy website.

Even still, $93 for a visa is too much, particularly if you're only travelling.

I don't see Canada responding immediately, BUT if there are reports of Canadian nationals being intimidated or singled out for discriminatory treatment, I think we will see Canada respond.
 
Burkhard
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Wed Dec 29, 2010 7:48 am

This is a practical way to eliminate any needs of landing rights for more than one A332 a week.
 
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Qatara340
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:13 am

Quoting brahmin (Thread starter):
According to Times of India. Eagerly waiting to see what will happen next. Who needs whom more?
Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 2):
This will, more or less, eliminate virtually all Canadian tourist activity in the UAE. I don't see that many tourists paying $1000 for a visa alone.

No its not. The UAE is a very lucrative economic powerhouse. It will make the Canadians shed their money to visit it for business or pleasure. Dont forget a lot of the Canadians are of Arab origins and have families in the Arabian Gulf. So, they will pay to get in.

Quoting blrsea (Reply 3):
The best thing for Canada to do is to do the same to UAE citizens visiting Canada.

Excuse me, but Emarati citizens have to pay a tourist visa to visit Canada for decades now! They are already doing the same!

Quoting kaitak (Reply 4):
Even still, $93 for a visa is too much, particularly if you're only travelling.

Well, if both countries are basically going to treat each other citizens' the same way whats not fair.

Canada has charged Emarati people for decades for a visit visa. Why shouldnt UAE do the same for Canadians?

The people who have blasted the UAE government are the same ones that will choose Emirates over the loss-making Air Canada any day of the year.
لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله
 
Quokka
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:23 am

Note that the $1000 fee is not for all visitors and would exclude the majority of short-term stays. The typical tourist would not be included in this category and would pay $250

•Multiple Entry Visa $1000 (Valid for 6 months, maximum stay in UAE 14 days each visit)
•Long term Visa $500 (Valid for 3 months, not renewable)
•Short term Visa $250 (Valid for 30 days, not renewable)
Source: http://www.uae-embassy.com/Visas.html

But these do appear steep compared with visa fees for UAE national wishing to visit Canada

•Temporary Resident Visa – TRV (visitor visa) - single entry $75
•Temporary Resident Visa – TRV (visitor visa) - multiple entry $150
Source: http://www.canadainternational.gc.ca...eau/visas/fees-frais.aspx?lang=eng

It remains to be seen if EY and/ or EK amend the fee that they charge for arranging a visa.
 
hoons90
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:24 am

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 6):
No its not.

Don't mean to come across as rude... but "It's not" what?

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 6):
It will make the Canadians shed their money to visit it for business or pleasure.
Dont forget a lot of the Canadians are of Arab origins and have families in the Arabian Gulf. So, they will pay to get in.

How often, though?

Perhaps you're saying that all non-VFR travel to the UAE by Canadians is insignificant enough to just shrug off? Then I guess Canada was right after all in saying that there isn't enough traffic to support more flights than there already are between the two countries.

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 6):
Well, if both countries are basically going to treat each other citizens' the same way whats not fair.

Canada is being singled out, though.

Last time I checked, the UAE wasn't in the US Visa Waiver Program. Where's the reciprocity there?
The biggest mistake made by most human beings: Listening to only half, understanding just a quarter and telling double.
 
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Qatara340
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:14 am

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 8):
Don't mean to come across as rude... but "It's not" what?

Not at all rude, I meant that Its not going to prevent people from spending the money to visit the UAE.

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 8):
How often, though?

Quite so, there are a lot of Canadians in the UAE.

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 8):
Canada is being singled out, though.

Last time I checked, the UAE wasn't in the US Visa Waiver Program. Where's the reciprocity there?

Last time I checked, there were more than 3 flights per week between BA, KL, AF, ect... between Europe Canada. That is being singled out, even if the UAE arent the only ones being singled out.

Is it fair that LH gets more flights to more cities than EK?

There is proof that EK flights are doing excellent and that they need to increase their flights. They are being prevented by the monopolistic Government of Canada which does not encourage free trade and has an iron grip on whose allowed to fly there and whose not!
لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:51 am

The UAE has little to offer Canadian tourists. There is little to nothing there that one can't find cheaper and as good elsewhere. Dubai is overpriced and most days and nights the roads are like a parking lot. It's too hot for most of the year for any outdoor activities...even if there was something more exciting than a tour in the desert...and deserts one can get almost anywhere. They have indoor skiing on the most boring hill on the planet, censored internet and crappy turkey bacon.

For the same cash or less, Canadians can spend time in places of significant interest like London, Paris or Rome. Or, if one is looking for something more leisurely, there are fabulous packages to Vegas, Egypt, Thailand or Australia.

For Canadians that work there, the vast majority will have their visas paid for by their companies, just like their lodgings are paid for already.

Canadians connecting through the UAE, (which are most of the Canadian passengers on Emirati airlines), won't be bothered by the fees since they are just passing through.

So basically, it's just another bit of headline grabbing on a slow news day.
What the...?
 
Charlienoble
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:57 am

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 9):
They are being prevented by the monopolistic Government of Canada which does not encourage free trade and has an iron grip on whose allowed to fly there and whose not!

I've got news for you. Most if not all governments have an iron grip on air travel to and from their country...and on a lot of other trade-related issues.

Fairness is completely irrelevant, it's all about what Canadians (via their elected government) percieve to be in their best interest. If the people there decide that they want EK flights bad enough, things will change. But the thought that EK should be allowed to fly there as much as they like regardless of the will of Canadians (Air Canada included) because it is "fair" is laughable. The world (and business) does not work that way.
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AirNZ
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Wed Dec 29, 2010 12:11 pm

Quoting kaitak (Reply 4):
Quite right - and how stupid too; after all, this is going to have a significant impact on the demand for flights (although I'm guessing the vast majority are connecting pax anyway), which will totally undermine the UAE's argument for more flights; talking about shooting yourself in the foot.

I don't see that it's "quite right" at all based solely upon what you are saying. In this you are very much assuming what people will do and thus, may I ask what you are definitively basing your claim that pax will not pay for a visa on? The fact that you may perhaps not is of absolutely no relevance as to what other's choose to do, and certainly not to the extent that you can state it as fact....indeed, you state that you are only guessing about the majority of pax anyhow.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 10):
For the same cash or less, Canadians can spend time in places of significant interest like London, Paris or Rome. Or, if one is looking for something more leisurely, there are fabulous packages to Vegas, Egypt, Thailand or Australia.

Perhaps a valid enough point, but also non-sensical in many respects. Whilst such places described may very well be of 'significant interest', they aren't much good if the person want/needs to go to UAE......if you need/want to go to UAE what on earth use would a 'fabulous package' to Las Vegas be????? Sorry, but again there seems to be a lot of assumption being used as to making peoples minds up for them!

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 10):
The UAE has little to offer Canadian tourists. There is little to nothing there that one can't find cheaper and as good elsewhere. Dubai is overpriced and most days and nights the roads are like a parking lot. It's too hot for most of the year for any outdoor activities...even if there was something more exciting than a tour in the desert...and deserts one can get almost anywhere. They have indoor skiing on the most boring hill on the planet, censored internet and crappy turkey bacon.

Sorry here, but on what basis are YOU deciding what other's want or need as fact? You have previously pointed out that you have spent time there so thus, this is only your opinion and should be clearly stated as such. I also have spent a lot of time there and don't happen to agree with your opinion of UEA at all........are you stating I am thus wrong?
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Qatara340
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Wed Dec 29, 2010 12:16 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 10):
The UAE has little to offer Canadian tourists. There is little to nothing there that one can't find cheaper and as good elsewhere. Dubai is overpriced and most days and nights the roads are like a parking lot. It's too hot for most of the year for any outdoor activities...even if there was something more exciting than a tour in the desert...and deserts one can get almost anywhere. They have indoor skiing on the most boring hill on the planet, censored internet and crappy turkey bacon.

I bet the freezing weather which covers 200% of Canada is a nice welcome to tourists. Well, why go to Canada, where we can just open a freezer and see the ice. Very very exciting. The UAE is seeing a million British tourists a year and thousands of Europeans which make Dubai their new home. Would much rather live in a hot climate like Dubai (which I have) than to spend all my money for Wild Canadian Moose to keep me warm during winter.

Quoting CharlieNoble (Reply 11):
Most if not all governments have an iron grip on air travel to and from their country...and on a lot of other trade-related issues.

Not UAE. It has an open-sky policy.
لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Wed Dec 29, 2010 12:27 pm

Quoting AirNZ (Reply 12):

Perhaps a valid enough point, but also non-sensical in many respects. Whilst such places described may very well be of 'significant interest', they aren't much good if the person want/needs to go to UAE......if you need/want to go to UAE what on earth use would a 'fabulous package' to Las Vegas be????? Sorry, but again there seems to be a lot of assumption being used as to making peoples minds up for them!

Most Canadian expats in the UAE have visas paid for by the company they work for. If you want to go there, just pay up...simple. It's small potatoes compared to what you're likely to pay for your UAE vacation anyway.

Quoting AirNZ (Reply 12):
Sorry here, but on what basis are YOU deciding what other's want or need as fact? You have previously pointed out that you have spent time there so thus, this is only your opinion and should be clearly stated as such. I also have spent a lot of time there and don't happen to agree with your opinion of UEA at all........are you stating I am thus wrong?

No need to be sorry. I am not deciding anything for anybody. It's flattering that you thing any poster has enough stroke to sway the opinions of others. Anyone can do or go anywhere they choose...no skin off of my nose. I can only decided for myself where I go...as I can decide for my self what my opinions are...which I am very obviously expressing.

On the other hand, I haven't told any lies about the UAE, either. They do have censored internet, a crappy ski hill and lousy turkey bacon. Those are facts. The climate is brutally hot and humid for most of the year...that's why most UAE tourist attractions are indoors.

I have formed my opinion by years of working in the UAE and other middle eastern locales. If you like the UAE...swell...I don't.
What the...?
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Wed Dec 29, 2010 12:40 pm

The saga so far:

- UAE demands more rights to EK)
- UAE threatens to evict Canada from Camp Mirage (Afghanistan forward operating base) unless it gets what it wants
- Canada offers other cities in addition to existing DXB on EK are Canadian citizens. The new fees will be an incentive to avoid DXB.
- In addition to new / expanded bilaterals with Qatar and Egypt, Canada has in the last 18 months signed new / expanded bilaterals with Turkey (TK), Ethiopia (ET), Morocco (AT), Tunisia, and the EU (SN to Africa, LH to Asia/Africa). India (AI and 9W) is on the to-do list. Watch for expanded TK and AI service.
- Canada now holds most of the cards. It could effectively shut down EK's N. American operations by imposing restrictions on overflights, which would cripple EK's routes to IAH/SFO/LAX and seriously impact JFK.

Ironically, the Canadian PM was actually in favour of giving EK additional rights until the UAE foot-stamping and threats started. The foreign diplomatic community in Ottawa is pointing at the UAE as a great lesson in how to make sure you don't get what you want.



Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 9):
Last time I checked, there were more than 3 flights per week between BA, KL, AF, ect... between Europe Canada. That is being singled out, even if the UAE arent the only ones being singled out.

Is it fair that LH gets more flights to more cities than EK?

See the EU bilateral, which covers all EU airlines, not just LH.

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 6):
Dont forget a lot of the Canadians are of Arab origins and have families in the Arabian Gulf. So, they will pay to get in.

But only a small proportion are Emirati. All the others now have lots of options other than EK.

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 6):
but Emarati citizens have to pay a tourist visa to visit Canada for decades now!

But not the extortionate fee now imposed by the UAE.

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 6):
The people who have blasted the UAE government are the same ones that will choose Emirates over the loss-making Air Canada any day of the year.

Evidence? As to AC being loss-making, you might actually want to check the facts - 2010 Q3 financials are here http://aircanada.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=384

[Edited 2010-12-29 05:28:24]

[Edited 2010-12-29 05:41:42]
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JoeCanuck
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:03 pm

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 13):

I bet the freezing weather which covers 200% of Canada is a nice welcome to tourists. Well, why go to Canada, where we can just open a freezer and see the ice. Very very exciting. The UAE is seeing a million British tourists a year and thousands of Europeans which make Dubai their new home. Would much rather live in a hot climate like Dubai (which I have) than to spend all my money for Wild Canadian Moose to keep me warm during winter.

Good for you...that's why there are choices in this world and free will. We appreciate your concern but our tourism industry is doing just fine, thanks. Some folks like skiing on real mountains and eating real bacon.

I think we can count of fewer Canadian tourists to the UAE, though. Still, to each their own.

[Edited 2010-12-29 05:19:11]
What the...?
 
captain777
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:14 pm

I don't think the UAE really cares about Canadian tourists, and I don't think they even gave a thought of how this action they took is going to effect the number of Canadian tourists coming to Dubai. Because their request to be given more flights to Canada was not for the purpose of serving the Canadian tourist between Canada and Dubai, they want the increase due to the demand by transient pax.
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airbazar
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:33 pm

Quoting blrsea (Reply 3):
It is ridiculous the way UAE government is behaving. The best thing for Canada to do is to do the same to UAE citizens visiting Canada.

And what exactly would that accomplish? Just because the UAE implements a stupid policy it doesn't mean Canada should follow. If the UAE wants to impose limitations on Canadian visitors that's their prerogative and clearly they're swimming in so much money that they can afford to limit the number of visitors that they get. Canada has no need to flaunt such stupidity for the whole world to see.

In the end the only loser here is not even the UAE but Dubai itself. We all know their economy is built on foreign visitors and investment, not their natural resources. Every other company in the world is watching thinking twice about establishing any kind of presence in one of those shiny new office buildings there because "tomorrow" they could be next and the cost increase may not stop at just Visa fees.
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:39 pm

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 6):
The UAE is a very lucrative economic powerhouse. It will make the Canadians shed their money to visit it for business or pleasure.

DXB needs the world more than the world needs DXB. If DXB didn't exist, somewhere else would take its place - check out PVG, or the current adds running in Europe for IST.

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 9):
the monopolistic Government of Canada

Of course the UAE government is much more open and democratic than the government of Canada - remind me again when the last election for President and Prime Minister of the UAE took place?

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 9):
Government of Canada which does not encourage free trade

Unless you want the facts to get in your way, you might want to check out Canada's free trade agreements and the air bilaterals signed since 2006.
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
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Revelation
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:44 pm

Quoting captain777 (Reply 17):
Because their request to be given more flights to Canada was not for the purpose of serving the Canadian tourist between Canada and Dubai, they want the increase due to the demand by transient pax.

Right, and I think it shows how dependent EK is on having unfettered access wherever and whenever they want it.

Otherwise, how do you fill up dozens of A380s, and hundreds of 777Ws?

Unfortunately for them, they are overplaying their hand. It seems they are feeling a bit more resistance to granting the unfettered access in Europe, so they decided to use totally unnecessary shows of force to get Canada in line.

All it's done is shown how unimportant access to UAE is to the average Westerner, which gives the EU a better position.

And it's quite interesting that in the mean time Canada has been granting improved bi-laterals to various African, Asian and Middle Eastern countries.

Without using any heavy handed threats or silly PR maneuvers, Canada has totally out-maneuvered UAE, and I say well done!

UAE is acting like a spoiled child, and deserves to sit in the corner for a while till they behave.
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Kaiarahi
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:55 pm

Reposting, as the edit function is all messed up (again)

The saga so far:

- UAE demands more rights to YYZ (EK from 3x weekly to 14 weekly)
- UAE threatens to evict Canada from Camp Mirage (Afghanistan forward operating base) unless it gets what it wants
- Canada offers other cities in addition to YYZ
- UAE refuses and issues a 30-day eviction notice from Camp Mirage
- UAE refuses overflight and landing rights at Mirage to Canadian aircraft carrying the Defence Minister and Chief of Defence Staff
- UAE lobbies against Canadian representation on the UN Security Council and boasts about it
- Canada complies with the eviction notice and leaves Mirage, but still contributes combat vessels to the force protecting Gulf oil-shipping lanes at significant cost to Canada
- UAE imposes a visa requirement on Canadians
- Canada signs a new bilateral with Qatar
- Canada signs an extended bilateral with Egypt
- UAE imposes visa fees on Canadians that are vastly higher than typical fees

What UAE doeswn't seem to realize:

- Most of the South Asian YYZ pax transiting DXB on EK are Canadian citizens. The new fees will be an incentive to avoid DXB.
- In addition to new / expanded bilaterals with Qatar and Egypt, Canada has in the last 18 months signed new / expanded bilaterals with Turkey (TK), Ethiopia (ET), Morocco (AT), Tunisia, and the EU (SN to Africa, LH to Asia/Africa). India (AI and 9W) is on the to-do list. Watch for expanded TK and AI service.
- Canada now holds most of the cards. It could effectively shut down EK's N. American operations by imposing restrictions on overflights, which would cripple EK's routes to IAH/SFO/LAX and seriously impact JFK.

Ironically, the Canadian PM was actually in favour of giving EK additional rights until the UAE foot-stamping and threats started. The foreign diplomatic community in Ottawa is pointing at the UAE as a great lesson in how to make sure you don't get what you want.
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
9w748capt
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Wed Dec 29, 2010 2:03 pm

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 15):
- Canada offers other cities in addition to existing DXB on EK are Canadian citizens. The new fees will be an incentive to avoid DXB.

Having never flown EK and not even living in Canada, I'm following this thread purely out of enjoyment - but I'm confused by this point made above - could someone please clarify? I think the point was to shunt traffic away from EK and DXB but I'm just curious as to exactly how. Thanks in advance!
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Wed Dec 29, 2010 2:05 pm

Quoting 9W748Capt (Reply 22):

It got completely scrambled by the edit function. I reposted in Reply 21.
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
LAXtoATL
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Wed Dec 29, 2010 2:18 pm

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 21):
- Canada now holds most of the cards. It could effectively shut down EK's N. American operations by imposing restrictions on overflights, which would cripple EK's routes to IAH/SFO/LAX and seriously impact JFK.

Canada might hold the card to pull overflight rights, but it is an unplayable card so it is meaningless! If Canada even threatened to pull the overflight rights, Canada would be receiving a call from their neighbor to the South. If you think the UAE is threatening Canada, I don't know what you would call the message the US would have for Canada if they threatened affecting travel and commerce into and out of the US but it would be much worse than any thing the UAE has done and would definitely extend beyond air travel. Canada is well aware that action would not be well received by the U.S. (or even the rest of the world), and therefore they will avoid the negative backlash they would receive from even threatening to restrict the overflight rights since they would never be able to enforce it anyway. Its interesting that people can call what the UAE has done as stupid and then say Canada could (or in some cases should) pull overflight rights to the US which would be far stupider than anything the UAE has done, not only would it start a political fire storm with its neighbor and ally (US) it would also probably draw some political backlash from other countries as well. So please, follow Canada's lead on this and lets not mention this as a possible course of action by Canada!
 
Charlienoble
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Wed Dec 29, 2010 2:23 pm

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 13):
Quoting CharlieNoble (Reply 11):
Most if not all governments have an iron grip on air travel to and from their country...and on a lot of other trade-related issues.

Not UAE. It has an open-sky policy.

Congratulations, but you've missed my point. You can't cherry-pick one industry where the UAE grants access and blast another country for controlling access, when the UAE itself like most other countries has measures in place to protect other industries and interests.

Or are you saying that the government of the UAE does nothing to help their own commerce...that the economy there is a completely free market? How open would the UAE's skies stay if they were flooded with widebodies owned and operated by the US Government?

That Emirates Airlines is operating in an enlightened, completely lasseiz-faire free-market fashion and succeeding on the quality of their product while backward, protectionist Western governments are trying to "keep them down" is a dramatic oversimplification and hardly reality.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 16):
Some folks like skiing on real mountains and eating real bacon.

Concur. Plus we've already got magnificent deserts here in the US, if that is what you are into.

[Edited 2010-12-29 06:34:26]
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fly2yyz
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Wed Dec 29, 2010 2:25 pm

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 21):
- UAE demands more rights to YYZ (EK from 3x weekly to 14 weekly)

I thought EK was trying to bluff the Canadian government by also requesting flights into YVR/YYC/YUL? Which is how it came to light that all they wanted was YYZ double daily.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Wed Dec 29, 2010 2:40 pm

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 21):
The new fees will be an incentive to avoid DXB.

  

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 21):
In addition to new / expanded bilaterals with Qatar and Egypt, Canada has in the last 18 months signed new / expanded bilaterals with Turkey (TK), Ethiopia (ET), Morocco (AT), Tunisia, and the EU (SN to Africa, LH to

  

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 21):
Canada now holds most of the cards. It could effectively shut down EK's N. American operations by imposing restrictions on overflights, which would cripple EK's routes to IAH/SFO/LAX and seriously impact JFK.

   I'd say Canada holds all the cards, although it would be fun to see what would happen if they allowed EK unlimited flights but no ticketing beyond DXB.
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jfidler
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Wed Dec 29, 2010 2:54 pm

Interesting to see how each country is playing their cards. I haven't really followed this issue before. Can someone give a status on the current amount of flights offered by EK to Canada and to which airports, as well as what EK proposes in terms of expanding that?
 
blueflyer
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Wed Dec 29, 2010 2:54 pm

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 24):
Canada might hold the card to pull overflight rights, but it is an unplayable card so it is meaningless! If Canada even threatened to pull the overflight rights, Canada would be receiving a call from their neighbor to the South

Canada had to grant the UAE overflight rights, they are included in the bilateral aviation treaty between the two countries, along with specific clauses and processes to revoke them. You are apparently writing from the assumption that overflying Canada on the way to the US is a God-given right that no one has the right to tamper with, but your assumption is quite erroneous.

The US sets pretty draconian conditions over overflight rights for its territory, and carriers operating to and from Canada have had to adopt some practices that are close to breaching Canadian laws, if not downright illegal (I think the jury is still out on that), but after consultations between Ottawa and Washington, the Canadian government asked them to comply because it is, after all, US air space, however misguided some rules might be. Now, the US is in no position to argue that Canada ought to consider the US' interests ahead of its own in regulating access to its air space, if only because the amount of oil coming from the UAE is a drop compared to the ocean coming from Canada.

Where you are quite right is that Canada is far more mature than the UAE in this dispute and has refrained from tit-for-tat reprisal because it is totally unnecessary. I think a lot of us would love to see Canada revoke overflight rights just to put an end to the UAE's arrogance (for that is what it is), I think quite a few other steps will take place before we ever get to that, such as a serious downgrading of diplomatic relations. After all, even Cubana has the right to overfly the US...
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AirNZ
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Wed Dec 29, 2010 2:57 pm

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 21):
It could effectively shut down EK's N. American operations by imposing restrictions on overflights, which would cripple EK's routes to IAH/SFO/LAX and seriously impact JFK.

Except there's not even the remotest practicability of such happening.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 21):
The new fees will be an incentive to avoid DXB.

Only for some perhaps, and certainly not a fact applying to the majority.
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sebring
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:04 pm

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 9):

Last time I checked, there were more than 3 flights per week between BA, KL, AF, ect... between Europe Canada. That is being singled out, even if the UAE arent the only ones being singled out.

Is it fair that LH gets more flights to more cities than EK?

Of course it is, these are massive origin/destination markets for Canada. You cannot be serious comparing the Canada/UK local market to that of Canada/UAE.

The point you seem to miss is that there is very little local traffic between Canada and the UAE, and such as there is doesn't warrant the level of service EK wants. Canada is far from Dubai. If we want to go to a beach, we fly to Florida, Mexico or the Caribbean. Much closer, much cheaper, and we can walk around in the skimpiest of clothing without giving offence. If we want to visit a fake city and watch a floor show, we go to Vegas. Much closer, much cheaper, better entertainment and better booze. If we want to go shopping, we drive to Buffalo or Burlington or Bellingham, or fly to New York or Chicago. If it's high fashion, Paris and Milan are much closer and Paris or London have so much more to offer as cities than a fake creation in the Gulf.

Europeans have more connection to Dubai because they are closer and there are more economic links. Dubai barely registers on the radar here. It's a 14 hour flight from Toronto, and if one is to fly 14 hours somewhere to experience a different culture, let it be a fun place like Hong Kong or even Mumbai. Except for a small number of Canadian companies and some family traffic, there is nothing drawing Canadians to Dubai, or Abu Dhabi, and EK wouldn't be missed one little bit if it throws another tantrum and pulls its three flights.

I don't know the quality of the staff at the UAE embassy in Ottawa, but someone clearly has not made the point to the folks at home that this particular Prime Minister is probably the most stubborn man ever to hold the job, and he seems headed to re-election, so trying to bully or intimidate him is a very stupid approach. With each intimidation tactic EK rolls out, its goal recedes further into the future, perhaps a decade or more into the future. For many Canadians, any legitimacy in the UAE position has given way to a staunch refusal to be bullied in this manner.

[Edited 2010-12-29 07:18:40]

[Edited 2010-12-29 07:20:48]
 
Mir
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:13 pm

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 9):
I meant that Its not going to prevent people from spending the money to visit the UAE.

It will. If they want their Middle Eastern fix, they'll go to Qatar instead, or Bahrain, or Kuwait. This is going to hurt the UAE far more than it will hurt Canada, as the UAE's economy is built on tourism.

-Mir
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Quokka
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:19 pm

Interesting history of the dispute so far. Don't get me wrong, I fully support Canada's right to determine who should have access and under what terms.

But for the interests of accuracy, Kaiarahi's potted history should include before everything else: UAE nationals require visa to enter Canada. This was a fact long before the current tiff. While previously Canadian nationals could obtain a visa free of charge on entry, for several years UAE nationals could only enter Canada after obtaining a visa overseas. While each country is free to set its own entry requirements (and while no doubt the present decision is linked to Canada's decision on access) let us not overlook the fact that Canada was the first to demand a visa for entry.

Secondly, given EK's (not the UAE's) growth is predicated upon transit passengers, the new visa fees will not impact upon those transiting Dubai in less than 24 hours.

I note that when it comes to EK (or the UAE in general) it is fashionable to use the word "demand". Allowing for the French use of the verb "demander", the usual English term is request. The fact that posters choose "demand", rather than the more neutral "request" indicates a certain predisposition. For example, I have never read a post starting "US demands", "BA demands" or "LH demands" but only "EK demands". There is a world of difference in English between demand and request. In context, a country may demand a visitor obtains a visa. They can only request flight access. Canada has demanded the former while denying the latter, as is their right.
 
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longhauler
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:21 pm

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 15):
Ironically, the Canadian PM was actually in favour of giving EK additional rights until the UAE foot-stamping and threats started. The foreign diplomatic community in Ottawa is pointing at the UAE as a great lesson in how to make sure you don't get what you want


That is right. The PM is from Western Canada, and the UAE were making great promises to increase flights to YVR and YYC. When that was actually offered though .... both Emirates and Etihad declined. Its YYZ and only YYZ they want.

Quoting Fly2yyz (Reply 26):
I thought EK was trying to bluff the Canadian government by also requesting flights into YVR/YYC/YUL? Which is how it came to light that all they wanted was YYZ double daily.


Exactly! If anything, the little spoiled prince's in the desert are attempting to play PR well.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 29):
Canada had to grant the UAE overflight rights, they are included in the bilateral aviation treaty between the two countries, along with specific clauses and processes to revoke them. You are apparently writing from the assumption that overflying Canada on the way to the US is a God-given right that no one has the right to tamper with, but your assumption is quite erroneous.


This is right, and twice in the past, Canada has blocked airspace to certain countries (it is country specific, not airline specific) based on that country's policies. A few months ago, the UAE blocked the transit of a Canadian military aircraft, again out of spite. It is hard to say if that contravenes the bilateral or not, as it was a military flight, however, I am very surprised Canada did NOT revoke the UAE overflight rights as a result. Doing that would have absolutely no effect on Canada at all ... it would have a huge effect on the UAE.
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sebring
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:24 pm

Quoting Quokka (Reply 33):

Secondly, given EK's (not the UAE's) growth is predicated upon transit passengers, the new visa fees will not impact upon those transiting Dubai in less than 24 hours.

I disagree on three levels. First, the publicity alone in the papers here today does not make this point clear, so a lot of potential transit passengers will be deterred. Second, passengers who tend to book connecting flights well in advance will be wary of possible further escalation in this dispute. And third, some passengers like to break their journey between Canada and South Asia with a stay in Dubai lasting more than 24 hours (mainly to shop). All of these people will have second and third thoughts now about booking EK or to a lesser extent, EY.
 
atct
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:33 pm

Quoting CharlieNoble (Reply 25):
Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 16):
Some folks like skiing on real mountains and eating real bacon.

Concur. Plus we've already got magnificent deserts here in the US, if that is what you are into.

  


Anywho,

It looks to me like the UAE is throwing a hissy fit. They may have open skies but they are far from free trade. Diplomacy works when you give and take...not just take. I have never been one who wanted to visit DXB, but this just sealed the deal for me. You can keep your 35-40C+ weather and dry climate. I'll keep my purple mountains and fruited plain. It may not look like it often, but a bunch of us down here are on your side Canada.

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rangercarp
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:37 pm

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 6):
It will make the Canadians shed their money to visit it for business or pleasure. Dont forget a lot of the Canadians are of Arab origins and have families in the Arabian Gulf. So, they will pay to get in.

You would be correct if you said SOME will pay it. But it is crazy to suggest all Canadians who travel to the UAE will be willing to add $1,000 to the cost of their trip ( or even 250, for the short term visa). Will this fee stop Canadians from traveling to Dubai? No, it won't. Will it have a significant impact on the number of Canadians who travel there? Most certainly.
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lnglive1011yyz
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:41 pm

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 6):
No its not. The UAE is a very lucrative economic powerhouse. It will make the Canadians shed their money to visit it for business or pleasure. Dont forget a lot of the Canadians are of Arab origins and have families in the Arabian Gulf. So, they will pay to get in.

It might be a very lucrative powerhouse, but MOST people I know here in Canada have absolutely NO reason to visit the UAE. Absolutely none.

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 6):
Excuse me, but Emarati citizens have to pay a tourist visa to visit Canada for decades now! They are already doing the same!

Absolutely - but 1000$ is completely out of reach for ANYONE. Including business travellers.

I suspect this measure will get thrown out very rapidly, as you will have plenty of UAE-Canada travellers, but you'll have no one travelling from Canada to UAE.

As a Canadian who has spoken to MANY people about this, the ONLY people I know who would travel to Dubai are business people who would be forced for work, or people who are transiting through to another location (India, Asia, etc).

I personally do not know anyone who has ever said "Hrrm, I'd love to go to Dubai to vacation....."

1011yyz
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Charlienoble
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:52 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 29):
The US sets pretty draconian conditions over overflight rights for its territory, and carriers operating to and from Canada have had to adopt some practices that are close to breaching Canadian laws, if not downright illegal (I think the jury is still out on that), but after consultations between Ottawa and Washington, the Canadian government asked them to comply because it is, after all, US air space, however misguided some rules might be.

Not to go too far off topic, but blueflyer, can you tell us more about this...what kind of laws do you mean?
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jetblueguy22
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Wed Dec 29, 2010 4:00 pm

Quoting lnglive1011yyz (Reply 38):
but MOST people I know here in Canada have absolutely NO reason to visit the UAE. Absolutely none.

Yes people you know. But there are people that need to go to the UAE. Its sad that governments have to battle like this. They are just costing their citizens money.
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peanuts
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Wed Dec 29, 2010 4:15 pm

If anything, this little tiff just demonstrates UAE's true colors. It also proves EK, Dubai and the UAE are just one big marketing bubble that needs certain things to take place for it to work effectively. If it can't get its way, they try to force it. If Germany and other European countries balk at EK's future expansion plans, you can count on Airbus being used as the punching bag.

Dubai may be "fun" to many, it's certainly not indispensable.

What I do find interesting to know is this: How is it that New Zealand and Australia found a way to get along with EK and Dubai as compared to Canada? What are the key differences?
 
MaverickM11
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Wed Dec 29, 2010 4:19 pm

Quoting peanuts (Reply 41):
Dubai may be "fun" to many, it's certainly not indispensable.

Arguably it didn't even exist merely a few decades ago
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YYZRWY23
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Wed Dec 29, 2010 4:21 pm

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 6):
No its not. The UAE is a very lucrative economic powerhouse. It will make the Canadians shed their money to visit it for business or pleasure.

Someone is a bit full of themselves...

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 6):
Dont forget a lot of the Canadians are of Arab origins and have families in the Arabian Gulf.

Not forgotten, but with a ticket on EK one way to DXB being $1006.00+54.06 taxes, this visa would double the cost of trouble. Sorry, but skype is WAY, WAY cheaper.

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 9):
There is proof that EK flights are doing excellent and that they need to increase their flights. They are being prevented by the monopolistic Government of Canada which does not encourage free trade and has an iron grip on whose allowed to fly there and whose not!

Yes, EK flights do have good loads. But do you really want to prove your point? Then:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 27):
I'd say Canada holds all the cards, although it would be fun to see what would happen if they allowed EK unlimited flights but no ticketing beyond DXB.

Let's see how loads do if EK can only ticket you to DXB. I don't see spedning the time buying two round-trip tickets (YYZ-DXB-YYZ, and DXB-Destination-DXB). It would certainly be a revealing experiment.

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 13):
I bet the freezing weather which covers 200% of Canada is a nice welcome to tourists.

You are correct. Go check out Whistler, BC as just one example in the Winter. Tourism in the Winter is huge for Canada because of all the outdoor sports and activities, none of which can be done in sand. And that freezing weather is for a few months, our summers can get as high as 40 degrees Celsius which, as many would agree, is hot enough.

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 13):
Would much rather live in a hot climate like Dubai (which I have) than to spend all my money for Wild Canadian Moose to keep me warm during winter.

Funny, I would much rather the opposite. I like having seasons, and I do enjoy some aspects of my winter months. All your posts have displayed is your arrogance for living in the UAE and your feeling of superiority to others. Not surprising, as the government basically acted as a 5-year old saying "If we don't get what we want, we are taking something from you". After reading your posts, I am glad I live in Canada. I wouldn't want to be surrounded by individuals with your attitude living in the UAE, even though I am sure there are many people there that aren't so arrogant and respect others.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 34):
The PM is from Western Canada, and the UAE were making great promises to increase flights to YVR and YYC. When that was actually offered though .... both Emirates and Etihad declined. Its YYZ and only YYZ they want.

Exactly. EK was given what they asked for, and declined it. Argument over.

Quoting atct (Reply 36):
It may not look like it often, but a bunch of us down here are on your side Canada.

And even if we don't always show it, we apprecaite it.

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Quokka
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Wed Dec 29, 2010 4:22 pm

Quoting sebring (Reply 35):


I recognise your concerns, but the UAE can not be blamed for how the media chooses to report things. I would never rely on what the media report, but would check with the competent authorities what the current requirements are.

An example of the unreliability of second-hand reporting is the title to this thread. People have cottoned on to the $1000 and totally ignored the fact that this excludes the overwhelming majority of Canadians who may set foot in the UAE. It even suggests that EK is to blame by stating "due to Emirates" rather than simply the the fee is being imposed by the UAE and EK does not receive a single penny of that money.

I can understand that those considering future travel may have second thoughts, though.
 
blueflyer
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Wed Dec 29, 2010 6:28 pm

Quoting CharlieNoble (Reply 39):
what kind of laws do you mean?

For more specific details, you'd probably have to turn to one of our Canadian members, as I'm only a visitor, but basically the issue is a conflict between Canadian privacy laws and the US' Secure Flight program. Canadian airlines say that handing over to the TSA the required personal details of every passenger on an overflight through US air space is a breach of Canada's personal privacy laws, and that they are stuck between a rock and a hard place and have to choose which law they'd rather ignore.

I think it was supposed to be in effect early this year, but the US and Canada have agreed to postpone the implementation to give them time to find a mutually satisfying solution. I am not sure they've made any progress, however.

It is especially controversial in Canada because it would apply to all flights that *might* be crossing US air space, even domestic flights.
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golfradio
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Wed Dec 29, 2010 9:07 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 45):

  

There was a long thread from earlier this year

TSA To Vet/Control Passengers On Canadian Flights
Bring back the old site.
 
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golfradio
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Wed Dec 29, 2010 9:11 pm

Quoting Quokka (Reply 44):
It even suggests that EK is to blame by stating "due to Emirates" rather than simply the the fee is being imposed by the UAE and EK does not receive a single penny of that money.

Then why does the 30-day visa that costs $250 if you do not fly EK or EY magically reduce to $72.50 if you choose to fly EK or EY?

[Edited 2010-12-29 13:20:14]
Bring back the old site.
 
klm77
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Wed Dec 29, 2010 9:36 pm

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 6):
Canada has charged Emarati people for decades for a visit visa. Why shouldnt UAE do the same for Canadians?

Don't you think 1000 dollars is a bit much? Especially since you are only allowed to stay for 14 days each visit?

[Edited 2010-12-29 13:37:48]
 
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OA260
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Wed Dec 29, 2010 10:00 pm

Canadians can vote with their feet and explore other places. Dubai is not as good as it once was and lives of its name to a certain extent. Unbearable hot Summers which many Emiratis love to escape to go to Europe or USA/Canada instead. Dubai has hotels and beaches that you can find in other parts of the Middle East or Caribbean/Asia with a bit more culture thrown in. I have been to Dubai many times and I always have a good time but if they wacked a visa fee on me Id never go back its not that important the world is a big place.

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